Question about Hitler

[Philosophos]

There is this guy that insists that Hitler didn't order any of the genocides/killings of the Jews and other people... He also says that he has evidence on the subject (that the soldiers were fanatics and did all these things because they wanted so, while Hitler never actually said 'kill the Jews').

Anyone that knows very well history/ a historian or whoever please tell me something that can't be denied on this subject.

Also there are some people that call Hitler Himler... I have absolutely no idea why they did so. If someone knows something please share...

[piet11111]

There is this guy that insists that Hitler didn't order any of the genocides/killings of the Jews and other people... He also says that he has evidence on the subject (that the soldiers were fanatics and did all these things because they wanted so, while Hitler never actually said 'kill the Jews').

Anyone that knows very well history/ a historian or whoever please tell me something that can't be denied on this subject.

Also there are some people that call Hitler Himler... I have absolutely no idea why they did so. If someone knows something please share...

Himmler was the head of the SS

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-S72707%2C_Heinrich_Himmler.jpg/245px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-S72707%2C_Heinrich_Himmler.jpg

I havent read Mein Kampf but i think he did mention that the jews must be exterminated in it.

I heard that they for a time considered relocating the jews to madagascar but i do not know if it is fact.

[Zulu]

> Himler

Himmler was another guy in the NSDAP.

And it's likely that Hitler actually didn't say (pronounce orally) that on record, but he did sign orders.

[Comrade #138672]

Does this guy happen to be a Nazi? Why else be a Hitler apologist?

Hitler really hated the Jews. He hated Communism and Marxism. He even combined this into a hatred for so-called Jewish Bolshevism. He was quite clear that he wanted to exterminate that, although one could naively say that he didn't mean that so 'literally'.

[Philosophos]

Does this guy happen to be a Nazi? Why else be a Hitler apologist?

Hitler really hated the Jews. He hated Communism and Marxism. He even combined this into a hatred for so-called Jewish Bolshevism. He was quite clear that he wanted to exterminate that, although one could naively say that he didn't mean that so 'literally'.

That's the weird thing he's left and anti-Nazi but as he says:" You can't blame a man for something he didn't do". Anyway I never actually believed him but I'm going to see what is all about the evidence he's going to show me...

[Tim Cornelis]

And it's likely that Hitler actually didn't say (pronounce orally) that on record, but he did sign orders.

It's the reverse actually.

Hitler said in a public speech, paraphrasing, "if the Jews plumage us into another world war, it will not end in the defeat of Germany, but rather the extermination of Jews throughout Europe." (from The Eternal Jew). That is, as far as I know, the only explicit direct evidence of Hitler seeking the extermination of Jews. There exists, again as far as I know, no written proof of Hitler himself ordering (including signed orders) the extermination of Jews.

Adolf Eichmann, one of the architects of the Holocaust, said however:

"I never did anything, great or small, without obtaining in advance express instructions from Adolf Hitler or any of my superiors."

Here is a concise refutation of Holocaust denial:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/genocide/deniers_01.shtml

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

It's kind of like right-wing liberals: "We never said fuck you, poor people!", but they very well mean it!

Hitler was a great politician (not his ideals, but he was very charismatic). He knew damn well how to say things, without actually saying it.


Also, Himmler, as piet11111 already pointed out, was head of the SS (Hitlers personal bodyguards and deathsquad) and right hand. I would not say friend, because i heard Hitler distrusted everyone. Even his woman (Eva Braun).
It was the SS who did the most killing and razzia's (systematic killing of all jews in an area).

While some soldiers probably were fanatics, most of em were just following orders. A lot of the soldiers actually willingly gave themselfs up or deserted towards the allied forces.

[The Idler]

He's probably heard a bit about David Irving, who is possibly the most famous holocaust deniers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving#Holocaust_denial

Wikipedia is usually good on debunking this sort of thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_responses_to_David_Irving


The British historian A. J. P. Taylor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._P._Taylor) called Irving in 1978 an author of "unrivaled industry" and "good scholarship" regarding research in the archives.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_responses_to_David_Irving#cite_note-Lipstadt_2005_22-4) Taylor criticized Irving's double standard with historical judgements, using as an example Irving's claim that the lack of a written Führer order proves that Hitler did not know about the Holocaust while at the same time claiming that the lack of a written order "proved" that Churchill ordered the "murder" of General Sikorski

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

There is this guy that insists that Hitler didn't order any of the genocides/killings of the Jews and other people... He also says that he has evidence on the subject (that the soldiers were fanatics and did all these things because they wanted so, while Hitler never actually said 'kill the Jews').
How does he explain the well-organized and efficient apparatus for genocide the Nazi state built from the top down?

[Zostrianos]

Though not specifically on the murder of the Jews, Hitler himself famously instructed his troops to "close your hearts to pity" when pacifying occupied countries. Also I read a long time ago that when a high ranking Nazi commander complained to the Fuhrer about the terror and atrocities they were unleashing on eastern Europe, Hitler reportedly smirked and called him a coward.

[kashkin]

While some soldiers probably were fanatics, most of em were just following orders. A lot of the soldiers actually willingly gave themselfs up or deserted towards the allied forces.

Among the officer corps, the younger/lower level officers were likely to be Nazis, most of the general staff and other higher level officers weren't big fans of the Nazis and they despised Hitler's lower class background, as most of them came from the Prussian aristocracy.

Whatever dissent/dislike of the Nazis was present in the German military, essentially it was useless as it hardly ever manifested into concrete action.

[Tim Cornelis]

Also I read a long time ago that when a high ranking Nazi commander complained to the Fuhrer about the terror and atrocities they were unleashing on eastern Europe, Hitler reportedly smirked and called him a coward.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if this were true.

Related is the plans for genocide in Eastern Europe. The Nazi administration had rather explicitly formulated a plan for the ethnic cleansing of Eastern Europe titled: Generalplan Ost. This was so significant, there is no way Hitler did not know about it.

Generalplan Ost, from wikipedia:


Generalplan Ost (GPO) (English: Master Plan East) was a secret Nazi German plan for the colonization of Central and Eastern Europe).[1] Implementing it would have necessitated genocide[2] and ethnic cleansing on a vast scale to be undertaken in the these European territories occupied by Germany during World War II. It would have included the extermination of most Slavic people in Europe. The plan, prepared in the years 1939-1942, was part of Adolf Hitler's and the Nazi movement's Lebensraum policy and a fulfilment of the Drang nach Osten (English: Drive towards the East) ideology of German expansion to the east, both of them part of the larger plan to establish the New Order.

(Wikipedia says it is "Master Plan East" but actually it is "General Plan East").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Among the officer corps, the younger/lower level officers were likely to be Nazis, most of the general staff and other higher level officers weren't big fans of the Nazis and they despised Hitler's lower class background, as most of them came from the Prussian aristocracy.

Whatever dissent/dislike of the Nazis was present in the German military, essentially it was useless as it hardly ever manifested into concrete action.

There were actually quite a few ploys to kill Hitler. A couple of years ago a popular science magazine published an article about some of them. You know what the real sadness was about it? They all failed because of bad luck. They were good plans, but that nazi-bastard was just damn lucky.

Indeed there were some plans from higher officers, which failed because of the fanaticism of the soldiers.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

That's the weird thing he's left and anti-Nazi but as he says:" You can't blame a man for something he didn't do". Anyway I never actually believed him but I'm going to see what is all about the evidence he's going to show me...

Adolf Hitler writes in Mein Kampf that the Jews must be eradicated, exterminated. Hitler appointed Heinrich Himmler to set up the SS. The SS was a State organization of highly ideological persons. Adolf Hitler personally orchestrated the 3rd Reichs "Racial" project, of making persons trace their ancestry to "aryan" persons. This was done to systematically ethnically cleanse and Class Germany according to "Racial" categories.

Adolf Hitler personally gave Himmler the order to open the KZ death camp Majdanek in Poland to end the mass executions and graves on the eastern front, to be replaced with gas chambers and ovens. Adolf Hitler most likely was not responsible for most of the details of the Holocaust, but IG Farben, which financed the NSDAP campaign, were promised a fat return on their investment, and it is very likely that the usage of the gas Zyklon B was ordered from the party leadership. Adolf Hitler however was a stooge. He was the front man of German Monopoly Capital, which the Capitalists of Germany were deeply involved in the systematic extermination of millions of innocent humans.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Ehmm...how is he going to prove that Hitler did not say something.

Proving something involves evidence. You can only prove if someone did something. Proving if someone did not do anything is only possible by the lack of evidence.
What is he going to do? Show up empty handed?

[hetz]

What strikes me is that there wasn't really much anti-Nazi resistance in Greater Germany ( compared to for example Italy ). I mean you had the Edelweiss Piraten and Geschwister Scholl and so on but nothing even remotely comparable to anti-fascist Partisans in other fascist countries or puppet states. Even in 1945 when it was obvious Germany is going to lose. Not even mass desertions.

[mxx]

In Germany there was no serious antifascist resistance or mass desertation, because the german population was fanatic in there believe that Hitler will bring them the victory. Big parts of the german society were a bunch of fascist scum.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

What strikes me is that there wasn't really much anti-Nazi resistance in Greater Germany ( compared to for example Italy ). I mean you had the Edelweiss Piraten and Geschwister Scholl and so on but nothing even remotely comparable to anti-fascist Partisans in other fascist countries or puppet states. Even in 1945 when it was obvious Germany is going to lose. Not even mass desertions.

I actually read an article today on this topic. Dutch folks saw themselfs as hero-people at first, but now we all (at least most of us) consider ourselfs perpetrator-people.

For you dutchies here: here's the article (http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/6275/Sander-van-Walsum/article/detail/3371109/2013/01/02/Wij-waren-in-de-oorlog-geen-dadervolk-net-zo-min-als-een-heldenvolk.dhtml).

[kashkin]

There were actually quite a few ploys to kill Hitler. A couple of years ago a popular science magazine published an article about some of them. You know what the real sadness was about it? They all failed because of bad luck. They were good plans, but that nazi-bastard was just damn lucky.

Indeed there were some plans from higher officers, which failed because of the fanaticism of the soldiers.

I'm not saying there weren't any, just not that many. I know little about them, but the problem with the July 20 plot was that the conspirators were still conservative/reactionary aristocrats.

Also, from a purely military point of view, killing Hitler might actually have been bad, considering his military incompetence.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

There is this guy that insists that Hitler didn't order any of the genocides/killings of the Jews and other people...

This is similar to what some people on revleft say when I acuse Lenin.

[kashkin]

What strikes me is that there wasn't really much anti-Nazi resistance in Greater Germany ( compared to for example Italy ). I mean you had the Edelweiss Piraten and Geschwister Scholl and so on but nothing even remotely comparable to anti-fascist Partisans in other fascist countries or puppet states. Even in 1945 when it was obvious Germany is going to lose. Not even mass desertions.


The problem is that who are you going desert to? Most did not want to desert to the Soviets and any retreat west was considered treason. Somehow, the Wehrmacht was able to keep quite good discipline even to the end. Also, many soldiers would have fought on simply believing they were protecting their homes fro, the Soviets.

If you were in the SS, you stood no chance. Soviet soldiers generally executed SS troops on the spot, and if you were a foreign volunteer there was no way you could go home (though many did after the war). Some of the last troops defending Berlin were French and Belgian SS troops.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

There are two schools of thought on the holocaust.

The first, the 'traditional' school, is the usual 'Hitler was evil ate babies for breakfast did everything himself organised every jew's death down to the last detail' great man theory stuff that is peddled.

The second - and maybe this is where you/your friend have gotten lost in translation - rubbishes the great man theory stuff above, and instead states that the final solution was not some great thing planned from the 20s, but an intensification of the persecution of the jews as a practical reaction to the war (i.e. they had no use for the jews anymore, so they worked them to death and then put in place the final solution). I think the great idea here is to emphasise that Nazi relationships within the party were more chaotic than a total top-down structure where Hitler was omnipotent. Rather, the likes of Heydrich and Himmler, among others, fed Hitler conflicting stories so that he wasn't like some all-knowing dictator, but a dictator who had his finger in many pies, so to speak.

Having said that, I don't think even this revisionist school of history (revisionist here not used as an insult but as a label for the school, since it's revising the traditional history of the holocaust) would absolve Hitler of blame for the Holocaust. Indeed, there are speeches, paperwork and much source material to prove that he was right behind the final solution, that it did exist as a policy framework (1941 I think??) and that it was carried out very efficiently, with millions of jews being killed, amongst the gypsies, homosexuals and anybody else deemed 'sub-species'. The murders I can personally attest to, i've spoken to survivors of teh holocaust and been to the death camps, it's very real.