Petty Bourgeois Question

[Philosophos]

If someone posesses some fields for agricultural buisness (I hope I haven't fucked up the sentence) is he a Petty Bourgeois? I mean they have workers and lots of times they exploit them a lot BUT with todays economy (especially in Greece) can someone that owns land not be a pb?

My grandfather owns some fields and I've worked a couple of times without money because I know he had some economical issues (the bastards were buying our products almost half price and we have no strong syndicats to defend our rights). Before the crisis he was giving to workers both greek and immigrants (I want to highlight he has some left ideas but he was raised with right wing morals) the same amount of money which was by the way creating a very good salary in the end of the month ( I have no reason to lie here so you just have to believe it). Anyway nowadays he has problem with paying the workers with the same money because of the crisis and the rest of the shit that going on in Greece.

Do you consider this man a Petty Bourgeois? If he is please explain what he should have done if he wanted to not be one.

[Zulu]

Do you consider this man a Petty Bourgeois?

Yes.





If he is please explain what he should have done if he wanted to not be one.

Sell everything and throw the money into the sea. That's a sure way to become a proletarian... But why would he want to do that? Most famous communists were of petty bourgeois origins, and Engels was a capitalist.

[Philosophos]

Yes.




Sell everything and throw the money into the sea. That's a sure way to become a proletarian... But why would he want to do that? Most famous communists were of petty bourgeois origins, and Engels was a capitalist.

Well Yeah he would never do such a thing. As I said before he has some left ideas but he was raised in a very conservative home so.... Well what can you dol...

[Blake's Baby]

If you survive by employing other people, you're a capitalist. If you also work yourself, you're a small capitalist (petit-bourgeois). If you want to not be a petit-bourgeois, don't subsist on other people's labour. It's fairly simple.

[Philosophos]

Thanks for your replies they cleared up the mess for me :thumbup1:

[Red Banana]

If you also work yourself, you're a small capitalist (petit-bourgeois).

So you would consider someone who doesn't employ anyone else but works by themselves petit bourgeois? This is something I've been wondering about lately because while they may not be exploiting anyone's labor but their own, they do have the potential to exploit the labor of other people.

[Blake's Baby]

So you would consider someone who doesn't employ anyone else but works by themselves petit bourgeois? This is something I've been wondering about lately because while they may not be exploiting anyone's labor but their own, they do have the potential to exploit the labor of other people.

No, because what I said was


If you survive by employing other people, you're a capitalist. If you also work yourself, you're a small capitalist (petit-bourgeois)...

To be petit-bourgeois you need to derive your means of living both from exploiting the wage labour of others (that makes you bourgeois) and from your own labour (which makes you 'petit').

[Red Banana]

Ok, thanks that clears thing up a little bit. I've always sort of thought working by yourself is like being in a one person co-op, though I have seen people on here call co-ops petit bourgeois before, which I just don't agree with.

[Red Commissar]

Ok, thanks that clears thing up a little bit. I've always sort of thought working by yourself is like being in a one person co-op, though I have seen people on here call co-ops petit bourgeois before, which I just don't agree with.

Well one thing you got to learn about the internet is general is people'll throw around insults regardless of whether or not it really fits. I've been called everything from a petit-bourgeoise to a liberal to a conservative so yeah.

The answers given in this thread pretty much sum up what petite-bourgeoise means.

[Manic Impressive]

Ok, thanks that clears thing up a little bit. I've always sort of thought working by yourself is like being in a one person co-op, though I have seen people on here call co-ops petit bourgeois before, which I just don't agree with.
I think they were probably referring to the class character of co-operatives, rather than saying if you work in a co-operative, that means you are petit bourgeois. I would term them utopian as Engels does in socialism utopian and scientific. However, they are a continuation of capitalism and not revolutionary, in some peoples terminology that means it must be some sort of bourgeois rather than just utopian or idealistic.

[piet11111]

To be petit-bourgeois you need to derive your means of living both from exploiting the wage labour of others (that makes you bourgeois) and from your own labour (which makes you 'petit').

To be a proletarian you need to work for a wage so doesn't that make a self employed person a petite-bourgeois ?

Just because your not exploiting others your money still comes from the ownership of your business not from wage labor.

[Red Banana]

If you work by yourself, the money you make comes from the value you produce, and the value you produce is made by your labor. They own capital yet they also labor (without exploiting anyone else's labor), so you could just as easily call them 'grand proletarian'.

[Manic Impressive]

The important thing when considering the self employed or small petit bourgeois is where their interests lie. Certainly the self employed are little more than artisans whereas others are self employed due to their employers getting around labour laws and in some cases minimum wages making them some of the most exploited proletarians. But even the petit bourgeois proper (the definition given by BB) cannot compete with the bourgeois bringing their interests in line with those of the proletariat. Because of this the class has little relevance as anything separate from the proletariat. Despite this the ideology of the petit bourgeois continues. examples of this are things like protectionism, a strong support for nationalism etc. For some in the petit bourgeois these still have material causes but for most are largely irrelevant. The other things to consider are the different effects of alienation on the petit bourgeois. Apart from this there is really little difference between the vast majority of petit bourgeois and the proletariat as for both the necessity is socialism.

[piet11111]

If you work by yourself, the money you make comes from the value you produce, and the value you produce is made by your labor. They own capital yet they also labor (without exploiting anyone else's labor), so you could just as easily call them 'grand proletarian'.

Or you use the proper term without resorting to inventing new ones.

This thread is about the distinction between a proletarian and the petite-bourgeois that distinction is where his money comes from, a prole draws a wage while the PB gets his money from owning property and working it.

[Blake's Baby]

To be a proletarian you need to work for a wage so doesn't that make a self employed person a petite-bourgeois ?

Just because your not exploiting others your money still comes from the ownership of your business not from wage labor.

So? To be a capitalist, you must employ wage labour, if you don't you aren't a capitalist. So if you don't employ wage labour, you aren't a 'small capitalist' either.

Look at the peasantry - smallholders can own their own means of production, not employ wage labour and engage in simple commodity production - they may have a similar class interest to the petite-bourgeoisie but they aren't themselves petit-bourgeois, if they don't employ wage labour; that's the essence of 'the capitalist relation'. No wage labour = no capitalism (large or small).