Has Zeitgeist achieved ANYTHING?

[Delenda Carthago]

I remember all that fuzz with these movies, everyone saw them, and then there was the movement, and then... nothing. Do they still exist? Have they managed to achieved anything?

[Lynx]

Not everyone saw them. (That would have been an achievement)

[PC LOAD LETTER]

They function as an internet cult along with The Venus Project and that whole crew with some crossover with the more paranoid wing of the Ron Paul / "Liberty" / Libertarian 'movement'.

There's a lot of focus on dissecting the Zeitgeist / Venus Project cult stuff on the Skeptic Project (http://skepticproject.com)'s site

[Q]

They function as an internet cult along with The Venus Project and that whole crew with some crossover with the more paranoid wing of the Ron Paul / "Liberty" / Libertarian 'movement'.

There's a lot of focus on dissecting the Zeitgeist / Venus Project cult stuff on the Skeptic Project (http://skepticproject.com)'s site

Outdated info (http://www.theresourcebasedeconomy.com/2011/04/the-venus-project-and-the-zeitgeist-movement-splitting-up/).

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Outdated info (http://www.theresourcebasedeconomy.com/2011/04/the-venus-project-and-the-zeitgeist-movement-splitting-up/).
I wasn't aware they officially broke up, thanks. I'd still consider them related, though.

[Sentinel]

I once saw three Zeitgeist types in real life, or at least I think I did. A couple of years ago I was invited to listen to a lecture about technocracy in Stockholm, and these really weird looking guys just came in, like 10 minutes late and sat or stood at the back of the room without saying anything (except telling the lecturer who they represented, he later told me).

They just were there and looked really mysterious. Then they left 10 minutes before the lecture ended. It all felt very surreal and weird.

[Raúl Duke]

I've met Zeitgeist types. They either typically act like run of the mill liberal activist types or Ron Paul/Libertarian types; only difference is that they spout off stuff about the Venus Project without ever really clarifying conclusively how they will reach that (what you expect from utopians)...

I know two of them however that have either become anarchists (in a loose sense of that word; ugh, I hate how America has such a loose stupid interpretation of what anarchism is. At least they don't support markets or whatever, but they sometimes spout the usual Rothbard BS version of voluntaryism or NAP and they also equally see capitalism as the enemy alongside the state, maybe even seeing the state as a tool of capitalist control...so at least it ain't so bad) or at least sympathetic to the idea.

They have achieved close to nothing outside spawn a new spawn of politic-nerds or conspiracy theorist types with a utopian idea yet with little traction on the wider public.

[Manic Impressive]

I don't know how Ron Paul supporters can be confused about zeitgeists program which is clearly for a stateless classless society without money. Some who i have met with were really into banking reform. Which is highly regulated banking reforms, putting them in the social democratic camp.

[Raúl Duke]

I don't know how Ron Paul supporters can be confused about zeitgeists program which is clearly for a stateless classless society without money. Some who i have met with were really into banking reform. Which is highly regulated banking reforms, putting them in the social democratic camp.

Well, recently the Ron Paul support has died down ever since the second Zeitgeist documentary (however, the first one had a mild Ron Paul slant and in the beginning most advocates for the documentary where mostly Ron Paul supporters). But even then, I've noted some muted support among Zeitgeisters on Ron Paul come election time, probably due to his stance on the FED, which I guess they mistakenly see as a sort of "banking reform" (These kinds of zeitgeisters, which recently have grown less and less, seem to be the most misinformed of Ron Paul supporters though) which they see as at least "something."

[khad]

This thread is too serious for chit-chat. In politics it goes.

[DasFapital]

It has allowed the Nickelback loving masses to believe they are politically aware, which isn't saying much. From what I've seen it mostly tried to reinforce the same truther, end the fed, jesus never existed bullshit. Nothing really useful.

[Sam_b]

this is worth reading:

http://ssy.org.uk/2010/06/shitegeist/

[p0is0n]

My one and only experience with Zeitgeist/Venus Project was when one of those hacks called me naive. Oh christ, the irony.

I also watched some of the movies. It all seems confusing as fuck to me... I always get semi-excited when someone starts to criticize the current state of affairs, but it seems as if it always ends in some bullshit about how the Federal Reserve, the Bilderberg Group, the Jews and a group of bankers in a shadowy board room are behind everything from 9/11 to the Newtown shooting.

[Art Vandelay]

My one and only experience with Zeitgeist/Venus Project was when one of those hacks called me naive. Oh christ, the irony.

I also watched some of the movies. It all seems confusing as fuck to me... I always get semi-excited when someone starts to criticize the current state of affairs, but it seems as if it always ends in some bullshit about how the Federal Reserve, the Bilderberg Group, the Jews and a group of bankers in a shadowy board room are behind everything from 9/11 to the Newtown shooting.

This I can't stand being called 'naive' or 'close minded' by people spouting that nonsense. But to answer the OP, no they haven't accomplished anything. That is what happens with utopians who conjure up these paradises in their heads, they stay there forever due to being irreconcilable with material conditions.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I've watched Zeitgeist: Addendum, the one where they talked about the Resource-Based Economy as advocated by the Venus Project. That part of the film was interesting, but with the rest of the film spouting some very dodgy nonsense about banking and various shadowy international organisations, it was kind of like finding a very nice and well-made cake thrown in a dumpster.

A disappointing waste.

[Rusty Shackleford]

"We're not left-wing or right-wing!"


read as: "Syncretic Politics"

[Questionable]

"We're not left-wing or right-wing!"


read as: "Syncretic Politics"

But people who say that usually are in fact left-wing or right-wing, they're just trying to appeal to people who are frustrated with mainstream politics and want a "third option."

Reminds me of Third-Positionists, which leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

About three or four years ago I ran into a small anti-war protest outside NYC with about 20 people handing out flyers about zeitgeist and holding up confusing signs. I've never seen another supporter outside of that, and that time period was the height of its popularity it seems like.

[Rusty Shackleford]

But people who say that usually are in fact left-wing or right-wing, they're just trying to appeal to people who are frustrated with mainstream politics and want a "third option."

Reminds me of Third-Positionists, which leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I was doing some research on a modern american fascist party and found this. Syncretic Politics is one way to describe fascism. At least, from the fascist's point of view.


when i was in school i toyed with the idea of equating people who call themselves "centrists" or "not left or right," fascists. Obviously they were not fascists, but it would have been funny. Never did it. Mainly because its absolutely childish.

[Overture]

Syncretic politics, in the traditional Third-Positionist sense, has nothing to do with Zeitgeist. They are introducing Marxian concepts in a way that isn't stuck in 1970 to people who have little to no political understanding. Zeitgeist also isn't about conspiracies or anything like that nor do they support Ron Paul. If you ask me, they used all that brilliantly.
If Zeitgeist came out initially as openly "Leftist" (which I think it is), they would've been called communist and given the amount of views and talk they generated from their films, the right-wing would've gone insane. Now, everyone assumes that they are a cult, which they aren't.
If you actually listen to lectures from Peter Joseph, who is a good speaker and debater, you'll hear him denounce imperialism and such.
The main problem I find with Zeitgeist is that they are openly non-violent. Their site contains Gandhi quotes and that advocate that as a means for a new society which is quite anti-historical. Other than that, they managed to do a lot of things that "Leftist" parties couldn't do and that's bring an anti-capitalist alternative to the mainstream. That's nothing to blame Zeitgeist about, that's an indictment on the Left. So far, the Left has utter failed at producing ANYTHING like Zeitgeist.

[khad]

All I remember is the part where Alex Jones starts screaming at Peter Joseph about STALINIST REEDUCATION CAMPS when PJ stated that a person transplanted from today's capitalist society into a resource based society would either commit suicide or act so anti-social that he would have to be readjusted.

[Nakidana]

All I remember is the part where Alex Jones starts screaming at Peter Joseph about STALINIST REEDUCATION CAMPS when PJ stated that a person transplanted from today's capitalist society into a resource based society would either commit suicide or act so anti-social that he would have to be readjusted.

I enjoy watching AJ ranting every now and then, he's a good laugh. He came across as a complete lunatic when he was screaming about "suicide murder pills" on Piers Morgan.

Can't be bothered to look through the Zeitgeist conspiracy shit to watch him though.


Zeitgeist also isn't about conspiracies or anything like that

Look, I haven't watched the movies but according to the article Sam_b posted "The first film is an amalgamation of conspiracy theories: first of all, about religion, making all kinds of claims about the origins of Christianity; then a large middle section about 9/11, asserting that there were no terror attacks and they were in fact carried out by the US government."

When you assert that 9/11 was carried out by the US government you are most definitely in the realm of conspiracy theories.

[Skyhilist]

The zeitgeist people made those "Why/what in the world are they spraying?" films, right, or was that someone else? I think there might be some decent credibility to that, but not much else that they've done. If I'm wrong here though, inform me otherwise, since I'm no zeitgeist expert or anything.

[Manic Impressive]

The zeitgeist people made those "Why/what in the world are they spraying?" films, right, or was that someone else? I think there might be some decent credibility to that, but not much else that they've done. If I'm wrong here though, inform me otherwise, since I'm no zeitgeist expert or anything.
I dunno about spraying stuff but they've managed to form an international group of workers based on the principle of a moneyless, classless, stateless society. All the while not falling into the trap of being dictated to by leaders.

That sounds like something to me.

[Skyhilist]

I was unaware of this. Thanks for the info.

[Manic Impressive]

Don't get me wrong there's a LOT wrong with them. The fact that they don't have a strategy means their members do tend to have very diverse thoughts about how to get from here to there. Some will be revolutionary while others will be reformist. The most they have seem to be unfeasible attempts at self sufficiency with calls to "get off the grid" and stuff like that.

I think the 2nd and 3rd films are worth a watch rather than the much maligned 1st film. Which incidentally they claim was a private venture by Peter Joseph and predates the Zeitgeist movement they've disowned it completely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X4hwQzTTL4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlPs10GSJjQ

[AtarashiiSekai]

I've watched Zeitgeist: Addendum and Zeitgeist: Moving Forward. I found them to be very interesting movies, actually. They seem to be more like anarcho-communists with technocratic tendencies. The third movie had some good points about human nature though.

[Crabbensmasher]

Syncretic politics, in the traditional Third-Positionist sense, has nothing to do with Zeitgeist. They are introducing Marxian concepts in a way that isn't stuck in 1970 to people who have little to no political understanding. Zeitgeist also isn't about conspiracies or anything like that nor do they support Ron Paul. If you ask me, they used all that brilliantly.
If Zeitgeist came out initially as openly "Leftist" (which I think it is), they would've been called communist and given the amount of views and talk they generated from their films, the right-wing would've gone insane. Now, everyone assumes that they are a cult, which they aren't.
If you actually listen to lectures from Peter Joseph, who is a good speaker and debater, you'll hear him denounce imperialism and such.
The main problem I find with Zeitgeist is that they are openly non-violent. Their site contains Gandhi quotes and that advocate that as a means for a new society which is quite anti-historical. Other than that, they managed to do a lot of things that "Leftist" parties couldn't do and that's bring an anti-capitalist alternative to the mainstream. That's nothing to blame Zeitgeist about, that's an indictment on the Left. So far, the Left has utter failed at producing ANYTHING like Zeitgeist.

This hit the nail on it's head.

When you talk about Zeitgeist though, you can't really compare it to any political ideologies. As they've said millions of times over, it's a technical oriented way of running the world. A technocracy in the truest meaning of the term.

As for them supporting Ron Paul, that's completely insane. Ron Paul is a free market libertarian. The Zeitgeist movement is a technocracy movement. I don't see how they can even attempt to be paired together.

There are other people who say Zeitgeisters are closet Communists. Well, I won't deny it, they definitely seem like the left-wing sympathy type of crowd, but honestly, if you think it through, it's more out of necessity than anything.

Basically, through technological unemployment, (automation of the workforce etc.) over the course of several years, the vast majority of the population will become jobless. If 60-75% of Americans suddenly become jobless, what is a society to do? These people cannot support themselves. There must be a way for resources to be distributed to the population. It's a problem that's stumped economists and futurists for decades.
Basically, the only option remaining is some version of a Resource Based Economy, where there's a transition into a cashless society and all remaining human work is to be done voluntarily. It's not Communist that the Zeitgeist movement wants a cashless system among other things, but out of necessity.

I hope that makes some sense. By the way, I've been following these guys for a few years now, and I really thing they have something promising going on. Peter Joseph is a brilliant orator, and their weekly radio show covers a really broad range of topics. Very intelligent people

[Raúl Duke]

Other than that, they managed to do a lot of things that "Leftist" parties couldn't do and that's bring an anti-capitalist alternative to the mainstream. That's nothing to blame Zeitgeist about, that's an indictment on the Left. So far, the Left has utter failed at producing ANYTHING like Zeitgeist.

I think you're giving them too much credit. Zeitgeist isn't really that mainstream...


As for them supporting Ron Paul, that's completely insane. Ron Paul is a free market libertarian. The Zeitgeist movement is a technocracy movement. I don't see how they can even attempt to be paired together.

Sure, it's insane/contradictory...

But in the beginning, before the whole Venus Project it was mostly orientated towards Ron Paul from what I observed in South-West Florida...

Even when the whole Venus Project thing was declared, I recall seeing a few Zeitgeisters in Occupy still support Ron Paul, although definitely support for Ron Paul waned after.

A few even became anarchists or anarchist sympathizers.

[RedHal]

When they denouce both Capitalism and Communism, it's easier for them not to get red baited. Obviously they are on the radical left end of the political spectrum, to me they are Star Trek Commies.

[Manic Impressive]

I think you're giving them too much credit. Zeitgeist isn't really that mainstream...
I don't know I remember their second film being shown on a prime time TV slot in the UK. They had a lot of early momentum but have significantly stalled now.




Sure, it's insane/contradictory...

But in the beginning, before the whole Venus Project it was mostly orientated towards Ron Paul from what I observed in South-West Florida...

Even when the whole Venus Project thing was declared, I recall seeing a few Zeitgeisters in Occupy still support Ron Paul, although definitely support for Ron Paul waned after.

A few even became anarchists or anarchist sympathizers.
This is the problem with their recruitment strategy, it's almost SWP esque. They count members as anyone who goes to their website and signs up for their mailing list. So technically I'm a member of zeitgeist even though I haven't even opened an e-mail from them in about 2 or 3 years. This and also the craziness of the first film means you're going to find a lot of 9/11 truthers and whack jobs from all over the political spectrum. Who consider themselves members of zeitgeist.

[Raúl Duke]

I remember their second film being shown on a prime time TV slot in the UK

I can't be sure but I don't think this was the case in the US...

Either way, I think what I was trying to convey is that even if they had some buzz (on the internet, that's what I seen in the US) it was kinda similar to the whole Kony 2012 thing. People were talking about it, some may have "joined" and are members to this day, but in recent times they've been mostly "under the radar"/invisible. Part of it has to do with the way that the Venus Project is like: It has a plan for a new society but not much in how to get there so not much is going on to achieve it.

[Manic Impressive]

I'm not sure what the next step could have possibly been for them other than starting a political party so it was bound to stall just as occupy was bound to stall. Unlike occupy however, they haven't completely evaporated.

I don't think Kony 2012 is a good comparison as the Kony thing was a single issue which the authorities wanted to solve. Whereas TZM is about building a new society, any of their members going into it with their eyes open would realize that takes time, which is probably why they haven't disappeared like the others.

[Raúl Duke]

Whereas TZM is about building a new society, any of their members going into it with their eyes open would realize that takes time, which is probably why they haven't disappeared like the others.

Of course, but it did stall as you say.

Some are still somewhat stalled, from what I gather they seem to like to "get-into" political movements like Occupy.

Some however have come to revolutionary conclusions, I know 2 who became anarchist sympathizers; not sure if they abandoned the Venus Project or if they have incorporated to their anarchist symphaties seeing an anarchist revolution of sorts as the means to that ideal society.

[Crabbensmasher]

TVP/ Resource Based Economy is an anarchist setup. That's what initially got me so interested in the concept.

I think they said at one point that computers would be in charge of higher level societal decision making. Sounds very sci-fi/dystopia-esque if you ask me.
Then again, it's purpose is to alleviate as much human control as possible. This includes liberating humans from most labour, but does it also extend as far as governance?

Also, they said that the Zeitgeist movies Peter Joseph made are separate from the Zeitgeist movement itself, and doesn't represent the group as a whole.
As for why they have the same name, I'm not really sure. I think Peter Joseph just wanted to make the movement's name something that people were familiar with, and at the time, his movies were pretty popular.

[RedBaltico]

Well I think Zeitgeist, from my experience, has made the people to think about the real world issues. And I can't really say much bad about them, only the fact how they used the scientific sources, in the end they had a conflict with The Venus Project, which moved on independently to research the new possible future. Since the society in general is so misinformed about the world problems or the causes of these problems, I would still use Zeitgeist or even The Venus Project as tools for bringing up the subjects. And if Zeitgeist or The Venus Project claims to not be either politically left or right, we should analyse the purpose of it. From what I know, The Venus Project claims how insufficient are politicians with their lack of professional knowledge and I think this 'political stereotype' has went across the modern society where most governments are corrupt and simply don't care on fundamental changes. This of course might not be true, but I guess we face this as a consequence of not letting the public more informed and active in the political debates or activities.

I would support The Venus Project more, because they claim that they are not really technocrats, in a way that they give the real governance to all people, something as direct-democracy. While the Technocrats advocate for governance of professionals and skilled people. I would advise for those who are interested to look into The Venus Project and one of their movies: Paradise or Obvilion, you can find it on YouTube or on their website thevenusproject.com

The general public is completely unaware of how the world system works, plus they even don't know much about politics as only what TV tells them or the media, but nothing from theory. So those documentaries might help people to start thinking and lead them to conclusions, even it might lead them to the left-wing movements in the end as well. But I don't think we should care much on if Zeitgeist should or should not claim it self as left-wing. Important part is the message that they give out to the public.

[tuwix]

I remember all that fuzz with these movies, everyone saw them, and then there was the movement, and then... nothing. Do they still exist? Have they managed to achieved anything?

I think the Zeitgeist movement has a great achievement in propaganda. We must be honest: the term communism doesn't have a positive meaning in the most countries. And the Zeitgeist movement rejects the term communism, but promotes the classless society without a private property. Certainly they do not know how to achieve it but they are advertising the classless society in very convenient way for many people.

[B5C]

I never watch their movies. I am very ignorant about Zeitgesits. I am still curious what is it about.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm not sure what the next step could have possibly been for them other than starting a political party so it was bound to stall just as occupy was bound to stall. Unlike occupy however, they haven't completely evaporated.

OWS was way larger & more significant than the "Zeitgeist movement", in the USA. I know about Zeitgeist, but that's only because I'm a political nerd. It's essentially non-existent as a visible movement and for the most part always was.

[Green Girl]

I enjoy watching AJ ranting every now and then, he's a good laugh. He came across as a complete lunatic when he was screaming about "suicide murder pills" on Piers Morgan.


I enjoyed that also, however Alex does have a point about "suicide murder pills" as I take one of the type he speaks of to deaden nerve pain which is also used as a anti-depressant, it's called Nortriptyline.

From the long list of side effects:

"You may have thoughts about suicide when you first start taking an antidepressant such as nortriptyline, especially if you are younger than 24 years old. Your doctor will need to check you at regular visits for at least the first 12 weeks of treatment."

I just did some quick research and only two people committed murder while on Nortriptyline."

I've been taking it for about 10 years and I have never attempted suicide or tried to kill anyone.

However there are other anti-depressants that have far worse track records.

Anyway I agree with Alex Jones as when workers occupy and take over their workplaces they will need guns for protection. :)

[Green Girl]

When they denouce both Capitalism and Communism, it's easier for them not to get red baited. Obviously they are on the radical left end of the political spectrum, to me they are Star Trek Commies.

That is a good strategy, as many people fear the very word "communism". I'm a fan of Star Trek, I wish I knew more about their political/economic system, here is what I remember.

In the 23rd Century they evolved beyond the use of money.

They don't work for financial gains but for personal satisfaction and fulfillment of the soul.

Planet Earth is a single government and a member of the United Federation of Planets.

On the other hand the Ferengi, an alien race do everything for profit and are a caricature of the current capitalist system and no members of the federation trust them.

Sometimes I think if we change the name of communism to Star Trekism we just might convert the world?:cool:

[Comrade Dracula]

Sometimes I think if we change the name of communism to Star Trekism we just might convert the world?:cool:

Eh, I dunno, I have a feeling that would cause a pretty large rivalry with Star Warsists, who would instead opt for an Iran-type Republic where a religious order of mystics is in power and no one heard of secularism.

@OP: They haven't achieved much beyond their popularity (and that's arguable). Still, I'm kind of/sort of looking forward to the new film they got in works, "Beyond the Pale", was it?

[Nakidana]

I enjoyed that also, however Alex does have a point about "suicide murder pills" as I take one of the type he speaks of to deaden nerve pain which is also used as a anti-depressant, it's called Nortriptyline.

From the long list of side effects:

"You may have thoughts about suicide when you first start taking an antidepressant such as nortriptyline, especially if you are younger than 24 years old. Your doctor will need to check you at regular visits for at least the first 12 weeks of treatment."

I just did some quick research and only two people committed murder while on Nortriptyline."

I've been taking it for about 10 years and I have never attempted suicide or tried to kill anyone.

However there are other anti-depressants that have far worse track records.

Anyway I agree with Alex Jones as when workers occupy and take over their workplaces they will need guns for protection. :)

Sure, I don't disagree that TCAs have that side effect in people under 25 years of age. But the problem is that AJ thinks the government or whatever is deliberately giving people TCA to make them suicidal, which is obviously a nutcase conspiracy theory.

What's the cause of your nerve pain btw, if you don't mind me asking.

[Green Girl]

Sure, I don't disagree that TCAs have that side effect in people under 25 years of age. But the problem is that AJ thinks the government or whatever is deliberately giving people TCA to make them suicidal, which is obviously a nutcase conspiracy theory.

What's the cause of your nerve pain btw, if you don't mind me asking.

I have constant pain in my head coupled with short-term and long-term memory losses. Regular pain killers on their own don't help lower the pain level. I take several prescription pain reducers along with Nortriptyline and a wet paper towel on my forehead as needed.

Some background, I'm a bit of a klutz and have had many head injuries so I have had a few CAT scans throughout my life. When memory problems started to surface I had a MRI.

The head pain began in early 2000's when I slipped on an oil spot while running with my laundry basket in the rain so it wouldn't get wet. I fell down on the edge of a concrete block and bashed in the side of my head and broke my glasses. I had a concussion and they did a CAT scan but the pain didn't go away. Since the CAT scan was clean it was decided that I have nerve damage.

Alex Jones believes everything is a conspiracy. Just don't attempt to take his guns. I don't think he could sleep at night without them as he is a little paranoid. :)

[tuwix]

Sometimes I think if we change the name of communism to Star Trekism we just might convert the world?:cool:


I like Star Trek too, but in one of thousands episodes there was stated that money became obsolete. Many fans have no idea that it is society without private property. And definitely we can't say it is classless and stateless society. There is a class of military bureaucrats there is president of interplanetary state of which allies are a feudal organizations (the Klingon Empire) or military dictatorships (The Romulus Empire).

The Zeitgeist Movement is better in terms of propaganda. They criticize capitalism and show that the only way is to abolish private property and replace it with a program of utilizing of things. I find it more effective.

[Zealot]

To me it seems like repackaged Marxism to appeal to those indoctrinated in bourgeois culture. I mean, it's no coincidence that they advocate the abolition of markets and private property and a planned "resource-based" economy. But their strategies are lame and only appeal to bourgeois pacifists and tend to attract conspiracy theorists because of the nonsense in their videos. They've certainly achieved something, just not what we would want them to.

[tuwix]

IMHO Zeitgeist Movement isn't Marxism in any way. Due to lack of the transition period from capitalism to communism, it is a form of anarcho-communism. And this is why their activity is contradictory to what Stalinists would want to.

Nonetheless, from the perspective of all who want stateless and classless society without private property their activity in terms of propaganda for such society it can be estimated as very useful advertising.