Favorite race of the Middle-Earth

[hetz]

What's your favorite race from the Middle-Earth?
I vote for Dwarves.

[Sasha]

tom bombadil...

nah, in honesty its man, its the most complex of all. although i'm quite partial to the maiar (the wizards and sauron) as well although they fitted better in the silmarellion when they where more dimensional than in lotr.

[l'Enfermé]

I voted men. I'm a human-supremacist.

[Le Socialiste]

Uruk Hai all the way.

[Sasha]

shit, whats the name of the werewolfs in the hobbit? they are sweet too...

[Le Socialiste]

shit, whats the name of the werewolfs in the hobbit? they are sweet too...

You mean Wargs?

[Sasha]

You mean Wargs?


yeah, though there is a passage in the hobbit i think where gandalf explain the difference between werewolfs and wargs and explains that while wargs can speak and understand crude orc and thus are beings of spirit ("fëar" in tolkien lore) 3rd age wargs are only descendent of the 2nd age werewolves who where corrupted maiar. (a bit how the giant spiders are descended from the maiar that drained the two tree's in the silmarilion)

[Geiseric]

Dwarves are the most badass imo, the hobbit convinced me. Tolkien apparently said that he based dwarves off of jewish stareotypes. Still, the touching "dwarves and eves getting along" through lotr was kinda political, against racism and stuff. The silvan elves come in second, they're too cool.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Hobbits, because of the virtues of Frodo and Sam.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Are the Easterlings the swarthy barbarian hordes who Saruman (or was it Sauron...?) convinces to rape & pillage the west? If so, definitely them.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I want to vote Easterlings or Haradrim because fuck anglo-saxon centrism but Tolkein basically made them slave-owning, human-sacrificing stereotype hordes and there's no real depth to them apart from 'they aren't the decendants of numenor so they're evil'. The Men of Dale seem pretty cool as a choice. They don't seem to follow a king per se but whoever distinguishes themselves through merit; such as Bard once he slew Smaug or the Master of Laketown because of his charisma and intelligence. Also the Avari elves are pretty cool. Basically when the Lords of the West summoned all the elves to Valinor these were the ones who emphatically said 'fuck that' and decided to stay in middle-earth chilling in forests. I quite like that idea of essentially telling gods to go stuff it.

[piet11111]

Dwarfs.

Because they like to drink and eat and are being overal badass.
Also because of the bit in the movies where gimli said that dwarfes are natural sprinters not long distance runners i immediately thought "hey thats a perfect excuse"

[hetz]

Someone wrote that if the ME correspond to the real world the Haradrim would have been Arabs/M. Easterners and the Easterlings perhaps Russians and Mongols and further on ( for there are "unknown kingdoms" even further to the East or Rhun ).

Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer

:lol:

[bcbm]

i voted for ents they are pretty chill bros

[Ele'ill]

dragons cuz fire and loot

[Q]

Racism in the thread.

For a united Communist Party of Middle Earth!

[Brosa Luxemburg]

^lol

[l'Enfermé]

Inb4 a Socialism in One Kingdom joke. Gondor Soviet Socialist Republic?

[Landsharks eat metal]

I always liked hobbits. Not pqrticularly interesting or revolutionary of me, I know...
Plus, after watching the film trilogy, I liked elves too, because I had a crush on Legolas :blushing:

[DDR]

Orks (plain and regular), industrialization FTW! :cool:

[Rafiq]

Elves are gross, fuck them, fuck their shit language too. I don't like any of the "races" because Tolkien's fantasy world is disgusting, it's inexquisite and kind of disturbing in ways. I would say Haradrim but since apparently they're slavers no. Fuck you Tolkien.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Balrogs for their First Age kick-assery

[Vanguard1917]

Aryans from northern europe.

[human strike]

I once had a dream where I was being attacked by hordes of Uruk-Hai only I was part of a black bloc and there were characters from the LoTR films on our side. Weird fuckin' dream. I guess the Uruk-Hai were kind of cops.

[Comrade #138672]

Race is not important. Class is.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I voted giant spiders but I love Sauron and...

http://ulujain.org/images/lotr/witchking.jpg

My nails are even Sauron's eye!.

[human strike]

Race is not important. Class is.

Said the white man.

[Comrade #138672]

Said the white man.True. :(

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I once had a dream where I was being attacked by hordes of Uruk-Hai only I was part of a black bloc and there were characters from the LoTR films on our side. Weird fuckin' dream. I guess the Uruk-Hai were kind of cops.
I once had a dream I was on a pokemon adventure and the first gym leader was Marx.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Balrogs all the way. One of them can go toe-to-toe with fucking Gandalf.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

How come there is a race called "Men", does it not involve women?

I voted ents, cause they are talking, walking, trees.

[Sasha]

Balrogs all the way. One of them can go toe-to-toe with fucking Gandalf.

Since they are actually the same race that's not really surprising. Balrogs are corrupted Maiar.

[Ele'ill]

what's disturbing is how much some of the users here know about a make believe world

[Geiseric]

I think haradrim were corrupted by sauron, like theoden was by saruman, no? Aragorn makes peace with them after the war anyways. The spiders were pretty cool, I named my bong Shelob. They're kinda the anti radagast maiar. Shelob almost killed melkor once too. I don't think tolkien is too racist, he portrays elves and men as huge pricks all through the books, who occasionally lend help when they're persuaded with notions of egalitarianism. Most of the silvan elves were not high elves btw, they would be considered "lower class elves."

[Sasha]

I named my bong Shelob.

Wow, didn't expect to get out geeked in this thread...

Speaking of, shelob is not the same spider as ungholiat who aided but also turned on Melkor but its last child. The giant-spiders in mirkwood are in turn descended from shelob.
Ungholiat is also probably not a Maiar. Orcs on the other hand are corrupted elves. Which indeed brings me to the only "excuse" I heard for Tolkien's racism that I can support somewhat. Excluding maybe ungholiat and tom bombadil to whom of both no conclusive origin story are given, all evil "races" are originally corrupted, good beings and of all good races the best can fall for evil; man, dwarves, elves, maiar, gods and even hobbits (gollum) alike.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

what's disturbing is how much some of the users here know about a make believe world

I've gone further and made one of my own. That alone probably qualifies me for nerdhood.

[Rafiq]

all evil "races" are originally corrupted, good beings and of all good races the best can fall for evil; man, dwarves, elves, maiar, gods and even hobbits (gollum) alike.

Well, as we will undoubtedly appreciate Tolkien's courtesy of explicitly mentioning how all "good races" are capable of becoming rotten, it's this concept of "evil" races on a whole and collective scale, whatever their origin may be, that signifies Tolkien's racism. The fact that they were previously "good" is all the better an argument that can signify us Tolkien's reactionary ideological tendencies, that "good folk" can be corrupted by "evil" (That the wonderful, fantastic Feudalism can be knocked into the dust by the capitalist productive forces and so on).

The standard Liberalist manifestation of "good" and "evil" in literature we find in books by George R.R. Martin and others, i.e. There are "good" and "bad" people of all different races and origins and it's what we do with our "free choice" that determines what we are. That all power "corrupts" in itself, this fight against "denisty" and finally this emphasis that even some of the antagonists can "turn good". Tolkien, so reactionary, formulates a black and white conception of "good and bad", all of his characters are one dimensional, and their innocence exists on the basis of their racial existence. It is true that some are more resilient in resisting the forces of "corruption", however, in the end they were still "good folk" in the sense that they were born good folk and that an external force corrupted them. That's another thing, in Tolkien's works, power does not corrupt in itself, we do not find "greed" or "lust for power" as the source of corruption (A standard Liberalist ideological literary feature), but some kind of initial battle between Satan and the good Lord. In all of the kingdoms in LOTR, power has never corrupted. As a matter of fact, there do not exist any social antagonisms or kings-gone-bad, in themselves. In Tolkien's universe, there has to be some kind of external-conscious being, (the ring, Sauron or what not) to corrupt them. Now of course as Marxists we recognize power never corrupts (power is a manifestation of class interests, and drastic changes in power do not represent the "flaw" in human nature but changes in social relations or the mode of production on either a relative or revolutionary scale). Of course we recognize "good and evil" do not exist. But we should not be fooled, these ideological tendencies are intrinsically Feudalist in nature, reactionary even by modern Liberalist standards.

See, it's important to understand Tolkien's "eurocentrism" exists, yes. But Eurocentrism here is not the problem (Euro-centrism is something that was extremely common in that time). As Marxists this dismissal of his works as merely racist (which they are) is not enough. We have to formulate a class analysis of sorts in order to truly understand and demystify Tolkien's elaborate and dynamic universe.

[Geiseric]

You're stupid if you think tolkien thought there were "real races," in RL, its called a metaphor, learn english literature...

[Ravachol]

what's disturbing is how much some of the users here know about a make believe world

lotr, harry potter, star wars, warhammer 40k,etc. trivia isn't that different from leftist history debates i guess. There's more factions and splits and banners in rev history than in any tabletop game.


Orcs on the other hand are corrupted elves. Which indeed brings me to the only "excuse" I heard for Tolkien's racism that I can support somewhat.

Yeah and its not like the 'pure' races are portrayed in an exclusively positive light, mankind is often greedy, quarrelsome, powerhungry, the dwarves are often greedy hoarders and very bigoted towards elves and elves are often elitist, prejudiced schemers and hobbits are sometimes kinda slow, dimwitted, rural and backwards.

[Rafiq]

You're stupid if you think tolkien thought there were "real races," in RL, its called a metaphor, learn english literature...


He didn't, he actually called Nazi ideology "anti scientific". None the less these are the expressions of his unconscious ideological racism. In fact you're the dumbass for not understanding the fact that ideological tendencies can exist without authors being blatant adherents to them on a direct level. Of course it was metaphorical (as I've stated, a class analysis is more important). But the means in which this metaphor is transmitted is objectively racist.

[Althusser]

I voted Balrog.
http://images.wikia.com/legomessageboards/images/2/28/You-shall-not-pass.jpeg

[Rafiq]

Yeah and its not like the 'pure' races are portrayed in an exclusively positive light, mankind is often greedy, quarrelsome, powerhungry, the dwarves are often greedy hoarders and very bigoted towards elves and elves are often elitist, prejudiced schemers and hobbits are sometimes kinda slow, dimwitted, rural and backwards.

Again, none of these qualify them as "evil" in the books.

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[Geiseric]

I don't see how its racist, those connections aren't really evident in the book. People were manipulated by Sauron in the book to do what was considered "evil," and the message of the book is that the temptation to do evil is always there, as we see every man who gets in contact with the ring go crazy and become evil themselves, meaning they're not really any better than the corrupted men or orcs, who you for some reason equate with non white people.

I don't see how a kingdom invading another kingdom in a fantasy equates with racism. They aren't seen to be "savage," or whatever, except orcs but they're not even human, they're just elves corrupted, which is the key word.

[Ocean Seal]

Race is a social construct, proletarian unity. Fuck fighting Sauron.

[Geiseric]

OMG Sauron wanted to genocide the rest of middle earth, and used magic to control millions of beings against their will.

[Rafiq]

I don't see how its racist, those connections aren't really evident in the book. People were manipulated by Sauron in the book to do what was considered "evil," and the message of the book is that the temptation to do evil is always there, as we see every man who gets in contact with the ring go crazy and become evil themselves, meaning they're not really any better than the corrupted men or orcs, who you for some reason equate with non white people.

I don't see how a kingdom invading another kingdom in a fantasy equates with racism. They aren't seen to be "savage," or whatever, except orcs but they're not even human, they're just elves corrupted, which is the key word.

Just shut the hell up and stop embaressing yourself if you don't read my posts here (HINT: I mention the fact that men can be "corrupted")

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2555399


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[Rafiq]

Btw broody, are you saying no orcs were born "evil" and that all of them were once 'elves'? No? Then how is this not racist? As I said, whole collective races and ethnic groups as "evil".

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[Rafiq]

Look theres nothing wrong with enjoying that shit but realize books like LOTR are objectively reactionary and racist.

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[Die Neue Zeit]

See, it's important to understand Tolkien's "eurocentrism" exists, yes. But Eurocentrism here is not the problem (Euro-centrism is something that was extremely common in that time). As Marxists this dismissal of his works as merely racist (which they are) is not enough. We have to formulate a class analysis of sorts in order to truly understand and demystify Tolkien's elaborate and dynamic universe.

Primitivism, then? :confused:

[p0is0n]

The Haradrim are by far the coolest.

[Ravachol]

Primitivism, then? :confused:

How is Tolkien primitivist? :rolleyes:

[Rafiq]

Primitivism, then? :confused:

No, Feudal-romanticist.

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[hetz]

But there's no feudalism in Shire, everyone owns their own patches of land. There's also no lord, kings and whatever.

[Geiseric]

Btw broody, are you saying no orcs were born "evil" and that all of them were once 'elves'? No? Then how is this not racist? As I said, whole collective races and ethnic groups as "evil".

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Yeah you're forgetting the factor of magic, which makes none of it racist. They're evil because of spirits called Maiar such as Sauron and Melkor, who don't actually exist in real life, corrupting black people and arabs :laugh:

[Rafiq]

Yeah you're forgetting the factor of magic, which makes none of it racist. They're evil because of spirits called Maiar such as Sauron and Melkor, who don't actually exist in real life, corrupting black people and arabs :laugh:

At this point I just feel bad for you. Does everyone see this shit? Apparently Animal Farm wasn't written as a parody of events in the Soviet Union because talking animals don't actually exist in real life, and are definitely incapable of usurping a farmer. Broody can't even articulate the fact that the sole reason that the antagonists as a whole, whether being corrupted by magic or some other garbage component of Tolkien's fiction, are "evil" on the basis of their race. I've never talked to someone so stupid regarding the manner to be totally honest. Never have I encountered someone who just went on saying "WELL, IT'S NOT RACIST BCUZ MAGIC DOSNT EXIST THEREFORE THE WHOLE BOOK WAS WRITTEN ABSTRACTLY AND ALL OF THE ANTHROPORMORPHIC BEINGS AREN'T ACTUAL REFLECTIONS OF HUMAN SUPERSTRUCTURAL (AND SOCIAL) RELATIONS BUT SOME KIND OF ABSTRACT CREATURE WITH NO INFLUENCE FROM THE REAL WORLD WHATSOEVER".

Again, my whole fucking point, if you even attempted to bother reading my previous post, was that Tolkien's social conservatism and reactionary ideological pre supposions are more important than his racism, something common during the time within fiction. As I've said, Tolkien isn't simply a reactionary for being racist, but for being a reactionary by bourgeois standards.

[Rafiq]

But there's no feudalism in Shire, everyone owns their own patches of land. There's also no lord, kings and whatever.

You're missing the point. The existent, "abstract" rhetorical nature of the shire obviously isn't an exact replica of previously existing Feudal social relations. Again, the book is not a sinister one, Tolkien did not intentionally (well, for all we know) go out of his way to prove himself a feudal romanticist. The shire's setting is clearly a pre-capitalist, pre-industrial one, one that wasn't tainted by capitalism's progressive social influence, that's for sure. Besides, the shire existed for one reason and one reason only: To portray the "smallfolk". I said previously that Tolkien's benevolence amounted to the fact that he made it clear that "smallfolk" can be champions of reaction too (as opposed to glorified kings, knights or what not).

[the last donut of the night]

balrogs, maiar who fuck shit up

[Questionable]

Men. Because mankind is always the best race.

[The Jay]

I voted for the Eagles, because they are intelligent, giant fucking eagles. What more is there to say?

[human strike]

On the subject of Tolkein's ideology: Epic Pooh by Michael Moorcock (http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953)

[Yugo45]

DWARVES! They're just the best. Elves are arrogant hippie bastards and don't give a shit about Middle Earth. They just want to save their own asses so they fuck off to live with gods and barely help against Sauron. Men are just boring (:/). And hobbits are just small Men (small boring Men). Ents are cool, but not as cool as dwarves.

To those saying that it's racist because whole "races" are classified as bad, it's not really like that. The "bad races" are usual races that got corrupted. They're not natural races, they were made by Morgoth or Sauron or whoever. For example, Orcs are elves that were snatched up in the first age by Morgoth and tortured and enslaved and bred by him to fight the Valars. Uruk-hai are orcs crossbred with Men. Trolls are corrupted Ents. Gollum is a hobbit who got corrupted by the ring, etc. The Nazgul are corrupted men.. So yeah.

There are many bad elves (Eol, Maeglin or Faenor's sons), men (many bandits and ruffians), dwarves, hell even Valars (the gods). Morgoth was the strongest and first Vala, and he turned out to be an asshole. The lesser spirits (Maiars) can be corrupted as well, turning them into Balrogs and whatnot.. All orcs, trolls = bad because the single purpose of them existing is being bad.

Also, Haradrim and Easterlings aren't bad as individuals, however their "government" was corrupted by Sauron. There are many hints in the books that kinda show this. Like when Sam sees a dead Haradrim and wonders did he really want to fight for Sauron or was he forced to. Also, after the war is over, many Men and "nations" that fought on Sauron's side send embassies to Gondor.

[Hiero]

The idea of thoose giant moths that they talked about in the Hobbit sound quite terrifying.

[hetz]

You're missing the point. The existent, "abstract" rhetorical nature of the shire obviously isn't an exact replica of previously existing Feudal social relations. Again, the book is not a sinister one, Tolkien did not intentionally (well, for all we know) go out of his way to prove himself a feudal romanticist. The shire's setting is clearly a pre-capitalist, pre-industrial one, one that wasn't tainted by capitalism's progressive social influence, that's for sure. Besides, the shire existed for one reason and one reason only: To portray the "smallfolk". I said previously that Tolkien's benevolence amounted to the fact that he made it clear that "smallfolk" can be champions of reaction too (as opposed to glorified kings, knights or what not).
I'm sorry but I really don't get your point.

[Hexen]

Notice that modern fantasy ever since "Lord of the Rings" has 'races' spitted and categorized which is identical to how racists split and categorize 'race' IRL?

It's like saying pick your favorite race IRL (i.e. White, Black, Hispanic, etc).....see what I mean?

[Devrim]

I just saw this and thought for a second it said 'What's your favorite race of the Middle-East?', which would be a pretty outrageous thing. The sad thing is that it didn't surprise me. I just though 'Ah RevLeft'.

Devrim

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Hobbits, fuck yeah!

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

I went Hobbits, the ones that go on adventures are cooler though. Balrogs, Ents, and Dwarves are cool too. Maybe I should have done Ents.

[Igor]

orcs ofc

[Geiseric]

Hobbits seem to be the most selfless race in middle earth, they always seem to be the ones saving the world. Dwarves are just really cool because of their badassery.

[hetz]

Hobbits don't really give a shit about the outside world, all they want is to be left alone. There are a few exceptions of course.
They are also very xenophobic, they even dislike the Bree-hobbits and those from the other side of Brandywine.

Also how can anyone vote orcs? They're disgusting.

[Igor]

Also how can anyone vote orcs? They're disgusting.

wow racist

[hetz]

Name one good thing about the orcs.

[hetz]

Another question, what IRL language does the Black Speech remind you of?

Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul

[Yugo45]

Another question, what IRL language does the Black Speech remind you of?

Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul

None, honestly. What is it supposed to remind me of?

[hetz]

It kinda reminds me of Turkish a bit.
Dunno.

[Devrim]

It kinda reminds me of Turkish a bit.
Dunno.

Turkçe gibi değil düşünüyorum.

Devrim

[hetz]

Penser zulum carsi ekser pekmez : D

But seriously, that's what B. Speech reminds me of. Besides that's what Google suggests, so I'm not the only one who thinks that way.
Look at the words ending in -luk, isn't that common in Turkish?

[Yuppie Grinder]

Hobbits seem to be the most selfless race in middle earth, they always seem to be the ones saving the world. Dwarves are just really cool because of their badassery.

Hobbits are mild mannered and unadventurous. Certain families like the Tooks and Biblo's mother's side of the Baggins family are unlike the rest of them.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Another question, what IRL language does the Black Speech remind you of?

Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul

To be honest I can't think of any real language that looks like that.

[Igor]

for some weird reason i thought of maltese

[Red Commissar]

Inb4 a Socialism in One Kingdom joke. Gondor Soviet Socialist Republic?

And that just begs this...

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/misc/midearth.gif

I've always been partial towards Dwarves, and heck Haradrim because it's clear Tolkein disliked them :lol:

[Rafiq]

Orcs are supposed to be hunnic

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[Raúl Duke]

ummm...wut...

well, from watching the hobbit...the hobbit life seems simple and unstressful plus in that movie it seems there was always time to smoke some good stuff.

which is pretty good deal: go on an epic adventure and then return to an idyllic little place when you're done and still alive and don't have to worry about shit it seems.

[Turinbaar]

Eru. God is a musician.

[Turinbaar]

Just some background info for those trying to apply political analysis to Tolkein's work.

He was a catholic (heavily influential in converting C.S. Lewis to christianity), with a tendency towards primitivism. His goal in creating a new mythology for the modern England was, according to him, not a political one (he was resentful of comparisons to the cold war), but rather a cultural one, and his work was based on ancient myths like beowolf. In any case his goal was limited by its idealism that supposed that the cultural void created by the capitalist degeneration of art could be filled by attempting to go back in time to past glories.

Himself a reactionary, his work carries with it the tendencies of old ways of thinking (the Silmarillion reads vaguely like the bible), which include race myths and simplistic moralism. This is intentional because these are the essential elements of the myths he studied as a professor of language.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I guess Tolkein never was gonna catch a break from the Left. After all, he was an old "aristocratic" British dude who wrote good vs evil narratives.

I've never seen much evidence that he was a "racist", though. Unless by "racist" you mean the fact that he created literary races of creatures...

[Yazman]

I wanted to vote for Ents, but I forgot they're called that in LOTR, I was looking for "Treants" or "Treemen" LOL.

[Yugo45]

It kinda reminds me of Turkish a bit.
Dunno.

Hmm, I don't really see it lol. And my language is a language with lot of Turcisms. Wiki says that it's most similar to Hurrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrian_language). And, in the story, Black Speech is based on Elven, which is based on Welsh and Finnish. So it probably has some grammar and stuff in common with Welsh and Finnish.

[Luís Henrique]

Ents, of course.

Because of the Entbates, also of course.

Unending debate, what else does a leftist crave for if not this?

Luís Henrique

[Rugged Collectivist]

I thought he wrote LOTR to showcase his made up fantasy languages. To be honest I never read the books and I only saw the first movie years ago.

[Yugo45]

I thought he wrote LOTR to showcase his made up fantasy languages. To be honest I never read the books and I only saw the first movie years ago.

Mostly true, yes. Tolkien was a linguist and he liked making up languages. Whole Middle-Earth thing is (like he stated multiple times) just to give history and background to his languages.

[Rottenfruit]

eagles i dont know why but i love eagles

[Rottenfruit]

lotr, harry potter, star wars, warhammer 40k,etc. trivia isn't that different from leftist history debates i guess. There's more factions and splits and banners in rev history than in any tabletop game.



Yeah and its not like the 'pure' races are portrayed in an exclusively positive light, mankind is often greedy, quarrelsome, powerhungry, the dwarves are often greedy hoarders and very bigoted towards elves and elves are often elitist, prejudiced schemers and hobbits are sometimes kinda slow, dimwitted, rural and backwards.

you know what makes people hate leftwingers? Douchebaggery and nitpicking over nothing like you are doing.

[rolfwar]

Lulz, i voted for Haradrim, but i like Easterlings, Orks and Uruks too!

[Decolonize The Left]

Eagles and it's not close. Even the wizards know that when the shit gets tough, you gotta call out the eagles. Plus, they communicate with moths n destroy nazgul - just too badass.

That and balrogs. Because they're made of fire.