Freedom

[Jason]

Many people have been brought up to believe that Cuba (and the other former state capitalist) nations were oppressive to freedom. How can people on RevLeft convince them that a future socialist state wouldn't be oppressive?

Anyhow, what is real freedom? Wouldn't be human to consider any society with secret police as being evil? When I was a kid that's what I thought, until I studied more about politics and history. I was brought up thinking Nazis and Communists were bad guys. Well, I was partially right.

[the Leftâ„¢]

In capitalism freedom is a simple dichotomy-- you are free to be a wage slave or starve

[Ostrinski]

I would say that freedom is something you experience existentially rather than an institutional relationship between oneself and society or the state.

[Let's Get Free]

The word freedom means so many different things to different people. But hierarchical authority is the enemy of any true socialist, as is censorship and lack of democracy.

[Os Cangaceiros]

In capitalism freedom is a simple dichotomy-- you are free to be a wage slave or starve

This is somewhat true, but in highly-developed capitalist states one can choose not to work and yet will not suffer death as a result of this choice. Your standard of living will be greatly reduced compared to someone who does have a job & is successful, but you will not starve to death.

In any case I'd rather be faced with the choice to work or starve, rather than be faced with the choice of work or imprisonment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism_(social_offense))

[ВАЛТЕР]

Freedom is subjective. The CEO speaks of how great and free the US is, while the OWS protestor feels the pain of police batons on their back.

To quote Lenin: "Freedom for who to do what?"

[Manic Impressive]

Many people have been brought up to believe that Cuba (and the other former state capitalist) nations were oppressive to freedom. How can people on RevLeft convince them that a future socialist state wouldn't be oppressive?
They were "oppressive to freedom" by the very fact that they are/were capitalist nation states.


Anyhow, what is real freedom?
That's a massive question that deserves a decent answer. However I'm not really in the mood so here's the dictionary definition of liberty

lib·er·ty (lhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifbhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifr-thttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif)n. pl. lib·er·ties 1. a. The condition of being free from restriction or control.
b. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.
c. The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. See Synonyms at freedom (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/freedom).

2. Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
3. A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or

The bolded part is what no worker has as we are all forced to work, the alternative is death. In reality this choice is no different to someone holding a gun to your head or cracking a whip on your back.


Wouldn't be human to consider any society with secret police as being evil? When I was a kid that's what I thought, until I studied more about politics and history. I was brought up thinking Nazis and Communists were bad guys. Well, I was partially right.
There is no such thing as good and evil. People make choices and act according to their previous experiences. Every previous experience you have had has been subject to economic realities. We call these material conditions. Therefore almost every decision or action you undertake has been influenced by matters which are beyond your control. So there aren't good and bad people there are only good and bad material conditions.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I think when we're speaking of freedom some context needs to be given. What is freedom to an extreme right-wing nationalist? The freedom to live in communities that don't have people of different races and culture. They'll tell you allowing in immigrants and a policy of multiculturalism restricts their freedoms. What is freedom for the capitalist? The freedom to control their private property to exploit workers. Why would we be for that freedom?

Freedom is something basically everyone adopts because everyone has their type of freedom they want to impose on people that they think will give them more room to be free, to do what you want without restrictions. Socialist revolution will be oppressive in its nature to the capitalist class, will generally take away those freedoms they hold dear as capitalists. The capitalist class with their bourgie ideologies tell us that socialism will bring an end to freedom in general. What we have to do is show other working people that we're not free because they are free, that our freedom begins where there freedom ends. It's always a question of freedom for whom.

[Jason]

I think when we're speaking of freedom some context needs to be given. What is freedom to an extreme right-wing nationalist? The freedom to live in communities that don't have people of different races and culture. They'll tell you allowing in immigrants and a policy of multiculturalism restricts their freedoms. What is freedom for the capitalist? The freedom to control their private property to exploit workers. Why would we be for that freedom?

Freedom is something basically everyone adopts because everyone has their type of freedom they want to impose on people that they think will give them more room to be free, to do what you want without restrictions. Socialist revolution will be oppressive in its nature to the capitalist class, will generally take away those freedoms they hold dear as capitalists. The capitalist class with their bourgie ideologies tell us that socialism will bring an end to freedom in general. What we have to do is show other working people that we're not free because they are free, that our freedom begins where there freedom ends. It's always a question of freedom for whom.


Right, I agree, FUCK thier freedom, and the feeling is mutual, as if I care. :lol:

We only fight for our freedom, freedom from stuff WE think is evil. Also, our struggle is very violent, because we cannot accept everyone's idea of freedom.

[Comrade Lenin]

"Freedom in capitalism remains about the same as it was in ancient Greek Republic: Freedom for Slave Owners" - Vladimir Lenin

[Jason]

"Freedom in capitalism remains about the same as it was in ancient Greek Republic: Freedom for Slave Owners" - Vladimir Lenin

Well, there not being hit with bullwhips, but starvation is just as bad. That was the argument of the "Pro-Slavery Movement" in the US. Ironically, it contained a strong element of truth: In some ways, the field hand was better off because he had total job security (which equals food security). However, looking at it overall, the New England wage earner and plantation worker were BOTH slaves.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

There are also people like me who beleive in positive liberty.

Freedom is self-determination, it is to be able to pursue whatever goal you wish to pursue without being stopped.

[Jason]

There are also people like me who beleive in positive liberty.

Freedom is self-determination, it is to be able to pursue whatever goal you wish to pursue without being stopped.

Right, but your goals could conflict with human rights. For instance, what if your goals are to tyrannically dominate others? That's the problem with right wing libertarianism, not saying you believe that.

[Rugged Collectivist]

Many people have been brought up to believe that Cuba (and the other former state capitalist) nations were oppressive to freedom. How can people on RevLeft convince them that a future socialist state wouldn't be oppressive?

Anyhow, what is real freedom? Wouldn't be human to consider any society with secret police as being evil? When I was a kid that's what I thought, until I studied more about politics and history. I was brought up thinking Nazis and Communists were bad guys. Well, I was partially right.

Why do people always talk about secret police and prison camps like the US doesn't do stuff like that?

[Blake's Baby]

Right, but your goals could conflict with human rights. For instance, what if your goals are to tyrannically dominate others? That's the problem with right wing libertarianism, not saying you believe that.

Yes, obviously.

At its basis, as we're social beings, the most 'free' society would be one in which we have the right to do what we want, as long as that doesn't interfere with anyone else's right to do likewise. It was Rousseau, I think, who said that the guarantee of the freedom of the individual is the freedom of everyone.

[Red Banana]

Why do people always talk about secret police and prison camps like the US doesn't do stuff like that?

Seriously, I wonder that myself. What do people think the FBI, NSA, Guantanamo Bay, Abu Grahib, etc. all are? I guess as long as you don't prop up the torture facility inside the US people just don't care.

[Thelonious]

[QUOTE]Many people have been brought up to believe that Cuba (and the other former state capitalist) nations were oppressive to freedom. I was born in Cuba and lived there until I was 8 years-old. I remember my youth in Havana as a very happy, exciting childhood; surrounded by happy and content family members and neighbors. I was very healthy, went for regular check-ups regularly, and enjoyed excellent health. I lived in an area that would be considered very poor by American standards. Medical and dental care was 100% gratis. Medicine was plentiful and cheap (this was before the fall of the Soviet Union - I was born in 1973).

I have some family members who live in the United States now, they are stuck in low-wage, unskilled jobs with no health benefits. When their children get sick they are forced to take them to the emergency room for care. When the bill comes they toss it in the pile with all of the other unpaid bills.

Now they have bad credit and cannot even get a contract for a cell phone. Forget about getting a low interest rate on a loan, they cannot even get one.

Many of the working poor in this country are stuck in a rut that they can never get out of. If you listen to the news or read comments on other "mainstream" web sites, these working poor would be called lazy, or "it's their own fault" that they are in such dire straits. I cringe every time I hear that one.

The capitalist system of the USA keeps the working poor trapped in a vicious cycle, the result of which, if the victims are lucky, is treading water with just enough air to survive the next day.

Is this freedom?

[Black_Rose]

I was born in Cuba and lived there until I was 8 years-old. I remember my youth in Havana as a very happy, exciting childhood; surrounded by happy and content family members and neighbors. I was very healthy, went for regular check-ups regularly, and enjoyed excellent health. I lived in an area that would be considered very poor by American standards. Medical and dental care was 100% gratis. Medicine was plentiful and cheap (this was before the fall of the Soviet Union - I was born in 1973).

I have some family members who live in the United States now, they are stuck in low-wage, unskilled jobs with no health benefits. When their children get sick they are forced to take them to the emergency room for care. When the bill comes they toss it in the pile with all of the other unpaid bills.

Now they have bad credit and cannot even get a contract for a cell phone. Forget about getting a low interest rate on a loan, they cannot even get one.

Many of the working poor in this country are stuck in a rut that they can never get out of. If you listen to the news or read comments on other "mainstream" web sites, these working poor would be called lazy, or "it's their own fault" that they are in such dire straits. I cringe every time I hear that one.

The capitalist system of the USA keeps the working poor trapped in a vicious cycle, the result of which, if the victims are lucky, is treading water with just enough air to survive the next day.

Is this freedom?

Well, we all know that capitalism sucks, and "we" refers to people who are liberals and perhaps even reactionary conservatives. The conservatives even use this to promote their ideals of "self-sufficiency", "rugged individualism", and "hard work" while being oblivious to the systemic exploitation and injustices of capitalism. I don't get the conservative fetishism that extolls "hard work" that only enriches the owners of capital while simultaneously impoverishing the spirit and mere perseverance in the struggle for survival in a capital political economy.

Your benign experiences in Cuba is what one does not hear about communism in "liberal" "democratic" states due to the biased nature of educational system and the media. We primarily are exposed to the agitprop of the reactionary "victims" of communist regimes. We need to let others know how socialism can be a revolutionary engine of socioeconomic progress, delivering tangible economic results, based on the realization of the potential of communism although limited due to socialist regimes being hampered by the aggressive policies of the United States during the Cold War.

-----

As a Marxist-Leninist, I was taught that freedom is the result of successful revolutions, not the cause of it. The bourgeois and those who are sympathetic to bourgeois ideals should be repressed during a revolution for the success of the revolution -- a notion that is antithetical to political freedom and civil liberties. It must be mentioned that capitalism is not about peace, economic prosperity, and political liberty; often capitalism is imposed on other states against the will of their governments and people. Capitalism's legitimacy in these instances comes from military power and economic leverage (such as the stronger capitalist nation being able to serve as an export market and providing capital to the subject state). In practice, capitalism is barbarism (and any Marxist-Leninist catechesis should provide numerous historical examples to support this). Where's the "freedom" in that?

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Right, but your goals could conflict with human rights. For instance, what if your goals are to tyrannically dominate others? That's the problem with right wing libertarianism, not saying you believe that.

Freedom is self-determination, it is to be able to pursue any goal you wish, without stopping other people from achieveing the goals they wish.

Better now?