The Real South Korea

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

Many Westerners are under the illusion that South Korea is a wealthy First World country. However, there is there is the problem of the real South Korea they don't want you to see:

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/87565289-contrast-of-slum-and-urban-districts-in-city-photos-com.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=910C62E22B9F47AABA0DA8C3BDBA65164D5D17F5D9847E44 02D4C0A83F12C801E30A760B0D811297
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jhqROrQ8KFE/SUutovo6ppI/AAAAAAAAAHo/Bu0j-6p8xAI/s400/DSC00646.JPG
http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/13490/korea_1956.jpg
http://www.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/large_652x488_scaled/photos/Seoul-forgotten-Shantytowns_512728.jpg
http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/gallery/090720/GAL-09Jul20-2337/media/PHO-09Jul20-170737.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1315/1068263484_1c59554235.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1285/1061511814_387e96d6af.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1237/1061512090_74dc1b76fb.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_Ds58gPTap5E/S2Wi5b-_UxE/AAAAAAAAFjs/hqJAXpQ1sgU/BusanKindOfSlums.jpg

[l'Enfermé]

Another one of those photos that shows slums side-by-side with skyscrapers? Godammit those make me so fucking angry. :(

[Manic Impressive]

Having been to Korea and been inside houses just like those I've got to say they look worse on the outside than they do on the inside. The one's in pictures 1,5,6 really look like my mate's house and he's a university professor. They've got about 7 or 8 rooms a lot of them will have everything you would find in a normal western house, except an oven. If I remember rightly my mate said it was incredibly difficult/expensive to get an oven in Korea. Anyway I'd rather live in one of those than where I'm currently living.

[Fourth Internationalist]

The only reason they have homes like that is because, clearly, they didn't work hard enough. #CapitalistLogic

[Manic Impressive]

Many westerners believe that the UK and USA are wealthy first world nations

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/5/15/1337103104852/Council-estate-in-Poplar--008.jpg
http://watermarked.impactphotos.com/1260174.jpg

http://images.quickblogcast.com/0/3/6/7/0/314680-307630/detroit_ghetto.jpg?a=83http://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/city-vs-city/68672d1285336270-most-ghetto-visually-8-18-bmore-2.jpg

They're right they are wealthy first world nations just like Korea.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

Having been to Korea and been inside houses just like those I've got to say they look worse on the outside than they do on the inside. The one's in pictures 1,5,6 really look like my mate's house and he's a university professor. They've got about 7 or 8 rooms a lot of them will have everything you would find in a normal western house, except an oven. If I remember rightly my mate said it was incredibly difficult/expensive to get an oven in Korea. Anyway I'd rather live in one of those than where I'm currently living.

Where'd he work, the College of Guryong?

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

http://images.quickblogcast.com/0/3/6/7/0/314680-307630/detroit_ghetto.jpg?a=83http://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/city-vs-city/68672d1285336270-most-ghetto-visually-8-18-bmore-2.jpg

Many South Koreans would be very happy to live in houses like that. Not many First World nations have the slums-next-to-skyscrapers conditions you find in South Korea.

In 2005, 37% of South Korean urban residents were living in slums.

http://www.prb.org/DataFinder/Topic/Rankings.aspx?ind=13

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/gallery/090720/GAL-09Jul20-2337/media/PHO-09Jul20-170737.jpg

This picture is not from SK. The livery of the train and the model is an obvious new-ish Western Railway EMU for Mumbai suburban services. (Sorry - Central Railway. Even says CR on the side of the train.)

http://watermarked.impactphotos.com/1260174.jpg

That's not even a slum. What's wrong with that? It even has maisonettes!

Most of those areas depicted in SK are old housing areas of traditional homes, some of which are somewhat in a state of disrepair. The government is keen to encourage private large-plot redevelopments by the local conglomerates (I wonder what % of the SK housing stock Samsung owns, it's a considerable amount of flats), and thus certain zones have been intentionally deprived to encourage such redevelopments. Many residents are old and do not wish to move out (partly for financial reasons), so the government also uses this as a tactic of making them move out.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

This picture is not from SK. The livery of the train and the model is an obvious new-ish Western Railway EMU for Mumbai suburban services. (Sorry - Central Railway. Even says CR on the side of the train.)

Maybe not, but I did find it on a website about the lower-class slums of urban South Korea. The other ones definitely look like pictures of South Korea -- you can even see the Korean writing. I took some from http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1207515 and a few from other websites.

Here's another photo:

http://cache2-thumb1.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/docserver/getimage.aspx?regionguid=5a7452e0-9a92-45d5-89b7-944c8b0ac3c3&scale=172&file=12642012102800000000001001&regionKey=gB5Io%2fcLk0Hz2ihL97iJKA%3d%3d

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Maybe not, but I did find it on a website about the lower-class slums of urban South Korea. The other ones definitely look like pictures of South Korea -- you can even see the Korean writing. I took some from http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1207515 and a few from other websites.

Here's another photo:



The others are of SK, yes. By the way, most of the towers in the background are fancy new luxury flats. There's been a large amount of such constructions going up lately. The number of public housing flats has been falling, and new constructions of such has declined. Traditionally conglomerates would provide their own housing for their own workers, which creates a somewhat precarious situation in certain cases.

Some populist measures have seen the erection of enormous amounts of new housing blocks in general, particularly in the large-scale construction schemes on the Southern outskirts of Seoul all the way to Suwon, but a majority of them are more upper-class and expensive, rather than social flats. In paving way for the redevelopments in central Seoul, a number of older (60-80's) public housing estates have been cleared.

[Manic Impressive]

Where'd he work, the College of Guryong?
I've no idea tbh

Many South Koreans would be very happy to live in houses like that. Not many First World nations have the slums-next-to-skyscrapers conditions you find in South Korea.

In 2005, 37% of South Korean urban residents were living in slums.

http://www.prb.org/DataFinder/Topic/Rankings.aspx?ind=13
Well stairs are only for the bourgeois in Korea :p

I find those statistics surprising to be honest. Comparing it to Thailand which according to that only has 2% living in slums. This makes me think that it has more to do with population density than it does with housing quality. As Thailand definitely has much worse housing conditions, although I didn't see the countryside in Korea. I'll admit I was quite shocked when I saw where he lived, they look incredibly flimsy and run down. More like sheds than houses, but they had a tardis like quality where they looked much bigger on the inside than they did on the outside. Surprisingly warm as well, which they'd need to be given how low the temperature can go. The house I'm describing is exactly like the ones in picture 5 it could even be his street.

The point though is that it has no bearing on whether a country is first world or not. It's whether a country is capitalist or not. I live in the South East of England in the most affluent area of the country but I know that within walking distance I could find houses with people living in them which have no proper doors or windows. Workers live in shitty conditions everywhere Korea is no exception.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

I've no idea tbh

Well stairs are only for the bourgeois in Korea :p

I find those statistics surprising to be honest. Comparing it to Thailand which according to that only has 2% living in slums. This makes me think that it has more to do with population density than it does with housing quality. As Thailand definitely has much worse housing conditions, although I didn't see the countryside in Korea. I'll admit I was quite shocked when I saw where he lived, they look incredibly flimsy and run down. More like sheds than houses, but they had a tardis like quality where they looked much bigger on the inside than they did on the outside. Surprisingly warm as well, which they'd need to be given how low the temperature can go. The house I'm describing is exactly like the ones in picture 5 it could even be his street.

Yes, but this is only for the urban areas - it is not a comparison of the hardship in the rural areas. Since 83% of total population in South Korea was urban in 2010, as compared with just 34% in Thailand, you could assume there is more rural poverty in Thailand but more widespread urban poverty in South Korea.

[Sendo]

As others have pointed out one of your photos is obviously South Asia given the dress and a lot of the places are not as bad as they seem on the surface. Especially the first one. I like the fact that so many families even in the cities have large vegetable gardens. So much better than the vain American Southwest habit of wasting drinking water on growing useless grass lawns.

A lot of places are simply old and are due for repairs which happen. Seoul has some places which are quite neglected by most places I've seen have been going through renovation in stages, nieghbourhood by neighbourhood. A lot of it comes down to the fact until the 1970s SK was woefully poorer than the North. Of course the modernization and the conveniences are not shared well, but compare that to America.

I've lived in the poor neighbourhoods in Korea and oh boy do I prefer it to living in poor neighbourhoods in America. At least you get public transit and old people ride for free.

A lot of houses in the photographs look like horrific shacks when they are in fact not. You'll see a lot of simple paint colours and, given the absence of American suburban neighbourhood associations, you'll see a maroon house next to a lime green house. From a distance it can look like SE Asia, as if the houses are nailed together sheets of scrap metal and odds and ends. A lot of times the insides are extremely well-furnished. Koreans don't worry too much about the exteriors of residences.

There is poverty to be sure and you can find pictures of it but I find your original post to be misleading. There is a wide disparity in the conditions from one photo to the next. I don't know who claims SK to be wealthier than the USA or the UK. In any case, it is essentially a well-to-do liberal capitalist country and much like Germany or Japan or Ireland or the UK there is a wealth disparity and slums exist.

The real social problem I see it right now is the amount of runaways and the suicides and the lack of alternative places to turn to for the troubled/at risk/family-less. If you deviate from the norm for whatever reason there is little recourse. Abandoned pregnant girlfriends, mentally ill, the disabled who have no known relatives, the foreign workers on boats at the mercy of their captains.

The housing situation here is quite good all things considered. The population is not growing yet the number of new construction projects is staggering. Many of these new apartment blocks are built in rural areas to save space. Farm next to apartment building does not equal a poor-rich contrast. They are very often studios and one-bedroom places for young and the working class people who want/need to move out from their family's house. This will be great for young women who need to leave the Neo-Confucian household and the queer who want/need some privacy to live their lives.

I'm quite tired of people ragging on the Korean peninsula because it's in the news so damn much. Cut Nk some slack given its dire isolation. Cut SK some slack too.

How about Japan? Japan, as a result of the Cold War and America's meddling in Japanese election laws, has had nothing but right-wing governments in power for decades. They still claim Sakhalin, Dokdo, Diaoyu. They still deny they abducted "comfort women". They privatized their postal service. They have had every PM visit Yasakuni (imagine Merkel visiting the graves of SS soldiers). I know Korea's the hot topic of the day and I'm glad, but if you want to be critical start off with Japan which is still ideologically the same as it was in 1937 just without the power though I'm sure if things went bad with China for the USA in ten years the Japanese would wholeheartedly join in. Or how about how Japan, a country on top of a fault line ignored its nuclear watchdogs and handled the Fukushima disaster horribly. Every criticism you could have with the RoK is applicable to a greater degree with regards to Japan. Japan has a lot going for it, but the corruption, neglect of the poor etc is all far worse. Japan rarely looks like shit though because it wasn't razed by decades of colonialism and war and civil war.

Well congrats for taking Korea down a peg. How about a follow-up detailing how Scandinavia's social-democratic miracle is only possible because the natural resources and strict immigration policies make it more feasible to give some of the wealth to working classes there. How about photos of Vancouver which I hear from friends is rife with burglaries by the way.

[hetz]

How about a follow-up detailing how Scandinavia's social-democratic miracle is only possible because the natural resources and strict immigration policies make it more feasible to give some of the wealth to working classes there.
Sweden has some of the most liberal immigration policies EU-wide. About 20% of Sweden's population are immigrants I think.
Norway is similar in that regard, while Finland has less immigrants.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

How about Japan? Japan, as a result of the Cold War and America's meddling in Japanese election laws, has had nothing but right-wing governments in power for decades. They still claim Sakhalin, Dokdo, Diaoyu. They still deny they abducted "comfort women". They privatized their postal service. They have had every PM visit Yasakuni (imagine Merkel visiting the graves of SS soldiers). I know Korea's the hot topic of the day and I'm glad, but if you want to be critical start off with Japan which is still ideologically the same as it was in 1937 just without the power though I'm sure if things went bad with China for the USA in ten years the Japanese would wholeheartedly join in. Or how about how Japan, a country on top of a fault line ignored its nuclear watchdogs and handled the Fukushima disaster horribly. Every criticism you could have with the RoK is applicable to a greater degree with regards to Japan. Japan has a lot going for it, but the corruption, neglect of the poor etc is all far worse. Japan rarely looks like shit though because it wasn't razed by decades of colonialism and war and civil war.

I don't want to keep bashing South Korea, even though it has many political defects. But I really feel forced to reply to this comparison -- at least very briefly.

Japan hasn't killed over 100,000 of its own citizens since World War II. Japan doesn't ban communist activities. It doesn't repress leftists under ridiculous "national security" legislation. http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/south-korea/report-2012#section-15-3

Japan doesn't arrest bloggers for making "gloomy economic forecasts." http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/south-korea/report-2010

Japan doesn't send people to prison for distributing music from North Korea on the grounds that such music threatens the safety of the nation. http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Flenta.ru%2Fnews%2F2010%2F11%2F08%2F music%2F&act=url

Japan doesn't punish traveling to North Korea with up to 10 years in prison. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmuBaVkDb-U

South Korea does, and is still considered a real democracy by the Western mainstream, since it's better to direct such criticism toward the North and disregard a great many unpleasant realities for the sake of a propaganda narrative. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/19/korean-conflict-time-nuanced-view

I certainly agree that, comprared to what South Korea used to be like right after World War II and even the 1980s, it has indeed showed a lot of improvement. There isn't a bizarre personality cult, and you can make many further comparisons between the North and South that work out to the South's advantage.

But there's another side of South Korea that the West doesn't want to see, with plenty of unpleasant aspects, and I don't agree that every criticism applicable to the ROK is applicable to Japan. But to an even "greater degree"? No way.

[Prof. Oblivion]

You can't use photos to prove a point. I can look up photos of Detroit that look worse than that. Yes, there are slums in Detroit just like that. And buildings falling apart that look worse than that.

Use statistics if you have a point to prove.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

You can't use photos to prove a point. I can look up photos of Detroit that look worse than that. Yes, there are slums in Detroit just like that. And buildings falling apart that look worse than that.

Use statistics if you have a point to prove.

Of course you can. It just depends what you're trying to prove.

This proves a point.
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/wlc/image/06/06546.jpg

This is proof of another point.
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/koreaatnight-thumb.jpg

And this is proof of another.
http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/87565289-contrast-of-slum-and-urban-districts-in-city-photos-com.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=910C62E22B9F47AABA0DA8C3BDBA65164D5D17F5D9847E44 02D4C0A83F12C801E30A760B0D811297

I did refer to the statistics above.



In 2005, 37% of South Korean urban residents were living in slums.

http://www.prb.org/DataFinder/Topic/Rankings.aspx?ind=13

[Prof. Oblivion]

Thanks, didn't see that.

Here's (http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/2007_PopDevt/Urban_2007.pdf) the original source, if anyone is curious.


Col. (8) Percentage living in slums: Proportion of the urban population living in slum areas at midyear 2005. Slum households are identified by UN-Habitat as urban households lacking one or more of the following: durable housing; sufficient living area; access to an improved water source; access to improved sanitation; or secure tenure. Source: United Nations Human Settlements Programme (UN-HABITAT), Global Urban Observatory calculations, Report on Progress on the MDGs, Target 7, Nairobi, Kenya, 2007.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Thanks, didn't see that.

Here's (http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/2007_PopDevt/Urban_2007.pdf) the original source, if anyone is curious.

This does not actually illuminate very much on its specific claim of 37% for SK. There's noway near that amount of actual "slum". If a housing standard like those old buildings, which are not egregiously poor compared to many things elsewhere which are classified as perfectly decent dwellings, is a slum, then there's noway in hell that the North has 1% in slums, because there, too, there are many of those old traditional houses left, even in Pyongyang, which has the largest amount of modern flat blocks, there's plenty of those old traditional houses, and some of them are (quite understandably given the material conditions in the North) of even worse disrepair. If 37% of SK population live in slum, the rate is over 40% for the DPRK.

The only explanation for this peculiar discrepancy is that the perilous tenure situation of some of the South Korean older residential districts is what renders it classified as slums. Business frequently uses its ties to government to evict people without offering them compensation or new housing, so it might be why. That is the only way I can see that happening. I'd like to see a case specific breakdown on how this number was calculated.

This is also not a defence of the SK government, mind you, it is a police state, it's just that those numbers seem not to reflect the reality, and I am reasonably familiar with general global urban conditions.

[The Idler]

Would anything change in a "united" Korea?

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

This does not actually illuminate very much on its specific claim of 37% for SK. There's noway near that amount of actual "slum". If a housing standard like those old buildings, which are not egregiously poor compared to many things elsewhere which are classified as perfectly decent dwellings, is a slum, then there's noway in hell that the North has 1% in slums, because there, too, there are many of those old traditional houses left, even in Pyongyang, which has the largest amount of modern flat blocks, there's plenty of those old traditional houses, and some of them are (quite understandably given the material conditions in the North) of even worse disrepair. If 37% of SK population live in slum, the rate is over 40% for the DPRK.

There is more elaboration at http://unstats.un.org/unsd/mdg/Metadata.aspx?IndicatorId=0&SeriesId=711. I agree that North Korea's statistic is very impressive. It's possible that this statistic is based on self-reported data. If so, it wouldn't be such a reliable estimate.

But I see no reason to question the number given for South Korea, because I see no reason to think that the South supplies false information that gives itself a crappy image.


The only explanation for this peculiar discrepancy is that the perilous tenure situation of some of the South Korean older residential districts is what renders it classified as slums. Business frequently uses its ties to government to evict people without offering them compensation or new housing, so it might be why. That is the only way I can see that happening.

Eviction has been a serious problem, but I think that the poor state of sanitation is another factor. This chart, based on Asian Development Bank data for 1997, contains details on the proportion of urban residents without access to piped water in their residential units:

http://s8.postimage.org/nwai1q091/ulsan.png

The chart comes from a 2003 UN report on worldwide data for water and sanitation. (http://books.google.com/books?id=F-bZAMzRqZwC)

Ulsan is one of South Korea's biggest cities and an industrial powerhouse. Again, I would ignore the claims made by other Asian metropolises; for instance, the chart notes that many Mumbai residents "registered as having house connection clearly do not." But 16% of Ulsan residents are listed as lacking access to piped water.

[Sheepy]

Would anything change in a "united" Korea?

depends

[Ocean Seal]

Many westerners believe that the UK and USA are wealthy first world nations

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/5/15/1337103104852/Council-estate-in-Poplar--008.jpg
http://watermarked.impactphotos.com/1260174.jpg

http://images.quickblogcast.com/0/3/6/7/0/314680-307630/detroit_ghetto.jpg?a=83http://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/city-vs-city/68672d1285336270-most-ghetto-visually-8-18-bmore-2.jpg

They're right they are wealthy first world nations just like Korea.
Having lived near the QBP for a while, I still have to say if you don't see the difference between the pictures you are pretty blind. The US and UK have some pretty shitty areas I agree, but like the massive projects on a cliffside, I've never seen. Also it doesn't look like each of those homes have 7-8 rooms. I'm not saying that they are as poor as most of the third world, but when you have terrible living standards like that, its a sign that there is still a bit to go before you make it into the first world.

[hetz]

Pretty much everyone to the east of Oder-Neisse ( even though I think many E. Germans still live in GDR-era blocks but these have since been renovated ) lives in commieblocks, usually poorly maintained.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

I think that the point that should be made is not whether one is better than the other, but that both are governed by a form of capitalism which inherently creates these levels of poverty and inequality.

[Manic Impressive]

Having lived near the QBP for a while, I still have to say if you don't see the difference between the pictures you are pretty blind. The US and UK have some pretty shitty areas I agree, but like the massive projects on a cliffside, I've never seen. Also it doesn't look like each of those homes have 7-8 rooms. I'm not saying that they are as poor as most of the third world, but when you have terrible living standards like that, its a sign that there is still a bit to go before you make it into the first world.
I don't know what the QBP is. I think one of the US pictures is from Detroit, can't remember where the other is. I was specifically commenting on three of the pictures which look exactly like the houses I visited in Seoul. They're not pretty from the outside. Even when you're standing right next to them they appear more like a shed. But appearances can be deceiving, don't judge a house by it's front door :p (does that work?)

However, compared with houses in Cambodia and large parts of Thailand they're practically luxurious. And as for a comparison between Korea and the UK/US. I can say without hesitation that I would much rather live in one of those houses (in the 3 pictures I mentioned) than in my current residence or countless other houses I've lived in, in the UK.

[Sendo]

16% Ulsan without plumbing fifteen.years ago during the asian financial crash.......wow. Nice cherry picking of data. Congrats on your crusade to make south korea look so patgetic and so much worse than than the west

also korea doesnt zone the same way the us does. A lot of buildings are multiuse and many""domiciles"" are converted into workshops and offices that workaholics (a sad rwality) often sleep at instead of going home). Im in serious doubt over tge truth or relevance of the data. 16% without plumbing is insane.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

16% Ulsan without plumbing fifteen.years ago during the asian financial crash.......wow. Nice cherry picking of data. Congrats on your crusade to make south korea look so patgetic and so much worse than than the west

also korea doesnt zone the same way the us does. A lot of buildings are multiuse and many""domiciles"" are converted into workshops and offices that workaholics (a sad rwality) often sleep at instead of going home). Im in serious doubt over tge truth or relevance of the data. 16% without plumbing is insane.

It's not cherry-picked data. Dated? Sure, but I don't have a newer study. Still, I wouldn't imagine you'd find 16% of the people of a major American city living without piped water in 1997. Nor do Americans live in the Guryong-style homes I pointed out in my original post here.

The sole point of this thread was an illustration of the disparity between the image of boundless prosperity and the underlying reality that was recorded by the United Nations reports (e.g, in 2003 for improved water access and sanitation in 1997 and in 2007 for the proportion of the urban population living in slums in 2005). I find it hard to believe that the fact that workaholics "often sleep at work instead of going home" can account for this disparity.

[Czesio]

Pretty much everyone to the east of Oder-Neisse ( even though I think many E. Germans still live in GDR-era blocks but these have since been renovated ) lives in commieblocks, usually poorly maintained.
Hmmm.... I grown up in blocks in Poland, which were built in 70s and 80s and didn't notice they were poorly maintained. :)