Mali Islamists renew destruction of Timbuktu mausoleums

[Os Cangaceiros]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/Mali-Islamists-renew-destruction-of-Timbuktu-mausoleums/articleshow/17737298.cms

ugh.

[skitty]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/Mali-Islamists-renew-destruction-of-Timbuktu-mausoleums/articleshow/17737298.cms

ugh.
Reminded me of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan:(

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

"Not a single mausoleum will remain in Timbuktu, Allah doesn't like it,"

Fuck Allah.


"We are in the process of smashing all the hidden mausoleums in the area."

And fuck you too.


Anything that doesn't fall under Islam "is not good. Man should only worship Allah," Mohamed Alfoul said of the mausoleums, which the armed Islamists consider blasphemous.

Allah must be a pretty fucking pathetic piece of shit excuse for a god if he is at all threatened by old mausoleums. Fuck your god. Fuck all gods.


The latest vandalism comes a day after another Islamist group in northern Mali — the Movement for Oneness and Jihad in West Africa (MUJAO) — said it had carried out amputations on two accused robbers in the northern city of Gao, and warned of more to come.

Not content with craven vandalism and attempting to erase history (Big Brother would be proud - the great irony being that it's Muslim history these bigoted control-freak shit-pieces are destroying), those fucking ghouls are now mutilating real living people to boot.

Religion poisons everything.

[l'Enfermé]

The Mausoleums don't even look remotely interesting, they're not really important, but what the fuck:


On Thursday, the United Nations decided to back the 3,300-troop operation to take back the Islamist-held region, though the Security Council vowed to keep working towards a peaceful solution.

Really? Why did I not see this anywhere in the news?


Once considered one of Africa's most stable democracies, Mali has for months been mired in the northern conflict that has so far displaced more than 400,000 people, according to the United Nations.

400,000? Why did I not see this anywhere in the News either? That's as many refugees as the 2-year long Syrian civil war produced. And Syria is twice as populous as Mali! Yet we see Syria on the news every 15 minutes.


Also, lol at the guy in the comments who compared Islamists to the Borg from Star Trek.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The Mausoleums don't even look remotely interesting, they're not really important, but what the fuck:

That's history being destroyed, you troglodyte. Just because your philistine and unfamiliar eye sees nothing of interest, does not mean that there is none to be seen.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Yeah a bunch of fanatics from outside Timbuktu coming in to pillage the city's 1000 year historical heritage and chop off some hands in the process. The armed Salafist movements of our era care about nothing except their crazy interpretation of their faith and are some of the most dangerous reactionaries out there. It is so tragic to see the center of medieval Islamic African civilization torn apart by these people.


Fuck Allah.
...
Allah must be a pretty fucking pathetic piece of shit excuse for a god if he is at all threatened by old mausoleums. Fuck your god. Fuck all gods.


I wouldn't go so far, these Mausoleums are the site of Sufi worship so much of their value to the local community is in part a religious one. This is clearly a sectarian attack by Salafis who want to impose a certain view of Islam on the local people by attacking that which they see as "idolatrous". I know you're a hardcore atheist and all and there's no problem with that but I see no reason to insult the victims of this attack (Sufi Muslims) in the process of criticizing those at fault (Salafi fanatics).

Not to mention, the Salafi critique of mausoleums isn't that God feels threatened by it but because it is an abomination. They think of it as a moralistic imposition on man by God.


The Mausoleums don't even look remotely interesting, they're not really important


That's because you know nothing about West African history and the importance of a lot of the people buried in these Mausoleums. Don't dismiss what you know nothing about.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I wouldn't go so far, these Mausoleums are the site of Sufi worship so much of their value to the local community is in part a religious one. This is clearly a sectarian attack by Salafis who want to impose a certain view of Islam on the local people by attacking that which they see as "idolatrous". I know you're a hardcore atheist and all and there's no problem with that but I see no reason to insult the victims of this attack (Sufi Muslims) in the process of criticizing those at fault (Salafi fanatics).

I'm sure if history had turned out differently, then the Sufis would be just as bad. The underdog isn't necessarily good because it's the underdog. I would argue that the "nastiness" of a religion or a particular brand of it, has nothing to do with teachings and is instead a function of how much power and influence the religion in question has in society - religious institutions that are politically weak do the nice and fluffy act because they'd get stomped by stronger political forces otherwise.


Not to mention, the Salafi critique of mausoleums isn't that God feels threatened by it but because it is an abomination. They think of it as a moralistic imposition on man by God.

Why would the creator of the universe anathematise a part of their own creation? Aren't they powerful or smart enough not to create such things in the first place, or nip them in the bud?

But really, such questions are ultimately rhetorical, since this sort of thing has nothing to do with the creator and everything to do with imposing control. It is an attempt to control peoples' minds by cutting off potential influences.

As a music lover, nay addict, I find the Salafist position on music at once supremely baffling as well as disturbing in it's implications.

[Lynx]

There was a time when Islam encouraged science. Oh well.

[l'Enfermé]

That's history being destroyed, you troglodyte. Just because your philistine and unfamiliar eye sees nothing of interest, does not mean that there is none to be seen.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Troglodytes_musculus.jpg
But I'm not a bird :(

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Troglodytes_musculus.jpg
But I'm not a bird :(

Wrong troglodyte.

http://i48.tinypic.com/fkz8r7.jpg

You are an ape, aren't you?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I'm sure if history had turned out differently, then the Sufis would be just as bad. The underdog isn't necessarily good because it's the underdog. I would argue that the "nastiness" of a religion or a particular brand of it, has nothing to do with teachings and is instead a function of how much power and influence the religion in question has in society - religious institutions that are politically weak do the nice and fluffy act because they'd get stomped by stronger political forces otherwise.


Sufis aren't all liberal tolerant hippies, but they have been the dominant sect in that part of Mali for a long time, hence the Mausoleums (which are often built for significant historical figures). They aren't known for imposing the kind of strict Shariah law, hence the fact that the people of Timbuktu are fleeing the severe punishments seen. They are used to the more mild religious focus.

I think there's some truth to what you say about the power of religious institutions, but it's not wholly true. There are a number of factors, from the economic structure to the social norms and mores to the content of the religion (yeah on the last one you could throw the accusation of me being an "idealist" but I don't think you can interpret religious institutions with strict materialism alone).



Why would the creator of the universe anathematise a part of their own creation? Aren't they powerful or smart enough not to create such things in the first place, or nip them in the bud?


I don't know the theodicy which the Salafists apply to this problem, but they don't think that it's because God is weak or something like that.


But really, such questions are ultimately rhetorical, since this sort of thing has nothing to do with the creator and everything to do with imposing control. It is an attempt to control peoples' minds by cutting off potential influences.


I think it's more complicated than that, as different sects will focus on different things that they want to control. Evangelicals in the US don't want to chop off the hand of thieves but many want to send gay people to anti-gay camps.



As a music lover, nay addict, I find the Salafist position on music at once supremely baffling as well as disturbing in it's implications.

No disagreement there, the Salafist moral assumptions make for a sad, colorless world.

[Astarte]

I'm sure if history had turned out differently, then the Sufis would be just as bad.

On the whole though, there is a reason why Sufism did not turn out to be a doctrine of choice for Islamic statists, and it is because it is a type of mysticism. A universal tenant of mysticism, to my reckoning, is that it teaches the practitioner to, as cliche as it sounds "question authority" and "seek inwardly" for spiritual answers, rather than to official doctrine or theological hierarchies; this general approach to spirituality has been historically shown to be not as malleable to the ideological manipulations of ruling classes - even when they do co-opt mystical doctrines, they are largely drained of the parts of the ideological content which expressly note that the seeker should seek inwardly.

[Zostrianos]

A universal tenant of mysticism, to my reckoning, is that it teaches the practitioner to, as cliche as it sounds "question authority" and "seek inwardly" for spiritual answers, rather than to official doctrine or theological hierarchies; this general approach to spirituality has been historically shown to be not as malleable to the ideological manipulations of ruling classes - even when they do co-opt mystical doctrines, they are largely drained of the parts of the ideological content which expressly note that the seeker should seek inwardly.

The theocratic ruling classes (as well as Islamists, extreme conservative Christians, etc.) want theonomy, not spirituality. They want a moral set of norms to govern society, and the only connection that has to spirituality is that they claim it was dictated by God - at the same time, they condemn individual approaches to religion as evil. Monotheism in the western world has unfortunately been like that since antiquity.

[Rafiq]

Wrong troglodyte.

http://i48.tinypic.com/fkz8r7.jpg

You are an ape, aren't you?

Aren't we all?

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Astarte]

The theocratic ruling classes (as well as Islamists, extreme conservative Christians, etc.) want theonomy, not spirituality. They want a moral set of norms to govern society, and the only connection that has to spirituality is that they claim it was dictated by God - at the same time, they condemn individual approaches to religion as evil. Monotheism in the western world has unfortunately been like that since antiquity.

I may be interpreting theonomy in a kind of non-doctrinaire way, but wouldn't anyone who is spiritual want "theonomy" to a degree? A taoist living solo in a hermitage in the woods even wants "theonomy" in the form of living in accord with the tao. Likewise, the case would be the same of a gnostic or hermetic trying to live according to the logos or a yogi living according to dharma.

I do not so much think the problem is having a moral set in regards to spirituality; only that it should be a "mystical theonomy" i.e. the "law of God" should be to investigate inwardly for the truth - this issue applied to religion vs. spirituality reminds me of the issue in Marxism of "Their morals and ours" - i.e. morality in and of itself is not the problem, but bourgeois morality which means a new, proletarian morality must be forged.

Also, I do not think it is a problem of monotheism since there have been an abundance of monotheist mystical traditions and polytheism in both the Western and Eastern worlds have just as easily been applied to statecraft as monotheistic traditions.

[Zostrianos]

I may be interpreting theonomy in a kind of non-doctrinaire way, but wouldn't anyone who is spiritual want "theonomy" to a degree? A taoist living solo in a hermitage in the woods even wants "theonomy" in the form of living in accord with the tao. Likewise, the case would be the same of a gnostic or hermetic trying to live according to the logos or a yogi living according to dharma.
I do not so much think the problem is having a moral set in regards to spirituality; only that it should be a "mystical theonomy" i.e. the "law of God" should be to investigate inwardly for the truth - this issue applied to religion vs. spirituality reminds me of the issue in Marxism of "Their morals and ours" - i.e. morality in and of itself is not the problem, but bourgeois morality which means a new, proletarian morality must be forged.
Also, I do not think it is a problem of monotheism since there have been an abundance of monotheist mystical traditions and polytheism in both the Western and Eastern worlds have just as easily been applied to statecraft as monotheistic traditions.

When I mean theonomy, it's not the kind that can dictate one's lifestyle - I see no problem with that. I'm talking about theonomy in the sense of imposing draconian laws and rules on all of society based on religion, e.g. persecuting gays and women, outlawing rival religions and destroying their places of worship, etc... This is completely different than the individual tenets of a particular religion. I don't see those as "theonomy" per se; I see theonomy as the imposition of theocratic rules on all of society.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

It's important to note that the Northern Malian revolt was lead by secular nationalists who wanted to free their country and deserve our support. They were overtaken by islamists because the various African powers backed by the US and Europe sealed the borders and the only faction that could get any kind of supplies were the Islamists from their buddies in the Arabian Peninsula. So yea, fuck imperialism

[dodger]

I have seen figures of like 5-6 m Muslims a year leaving Islam in Africa. We can expect a reaction. They startled me at first. Perhaps with this latest scramble for Africa we shall see many of the conflicts dressed up as religious as much as tribal or ethnic. Either way it is an open-sezami US-NATO-EU collusion or dare I say it contention. No doubt the missionaries of one sort or another will be poisoning the wells. We can spare a thought for those driven further into poverty in Timbuctoo with the loss of tourists and general lawlessness.

[Althusser]

Someone get the jumper cables.
We can rebuild him, re-animate him.

http://espressostalinist.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/hoxha_mail1.jpg

MECHA-HOXHA SMASH

[Rafiq]

The fight against Islamists (on a national level, i.e. What we see in Egypt, Tunisia etc.) is necessary for any real type of revolutionary proletarian class consciousness to be achieved in the Middle East. This is definitely possible without class collaboration, Islamism has proven itself to be the ideology of the Middle Eastern bourgeoisie time and time again, (though this is not true for cosmopolitan businessmen a la Mohammed Alfayed, and the toadies of fictitious capital in the Middle East) usually confined to factory owners and to an extent the upper crust of the petite-bourgeoisie (the urban petite bourgeoisie). In the case of Mali and other parts of Sub Saharan Africa I'm not exactly the most knowledgeable regarding the subject therefore I don't know how I would classify Islamism in that regard, but I'd be willing to bet my balls it's of the petite bourgeoisie. In any case I don't think we should shed any tears should the Islamists fall however offering unequivicoal intellectual support for forces of class collaboration against them isn't something we should be so keen in granting (after all, it doesn't really make a difference anyway).

[Rafiq]

Actually I'd imagine an abundance of Islamists in Africa isn't of extreme concern to the U.S. or NATO, as a matter of fact, in the face of the previous Communist movements existing there (and they were quite numerous in Africa, especially Sudan and southern Africa), it's a welcomed development.

[Sea]

But I'm not a bird :(
Are you a plane? Are you superman?

[Ismail]

Someone get the jumper cables.
We can rebuild him, re-animate him.

MECHA-HOXHA SMASHWhat's funny is that one of the leading forces against the Traoré regime was the Malian Party of Labour, which at the time was pro-Albanian.

It was also in the government at the time of the military coup which was carried out due to the inability of said government to fight the Islamists.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Smash the mausoleums? No! Smash the reactionaries!

[Zostrianos]

More bad news...the bastards actually torched an ancient library :(

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/28/mali-timbuktu-library-ancient-manuscripts
Islamist insurgents retreating from Timbuktu set fire to a library containing thousands of priceless historic manuscripts, according to the Saharan town's mayor, in an incident he described as a "devastating blow" to world heritage.
Hallé Ousmani Cissé told the Guardian that al-Qaida (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/al-qaida)-allied fighters on Saturday torched two buildings that held the manuscripts, some of which dated back to the 13th century. They also burned down the town hall, the governor's office and an MP's residence, and shot dead a man who was celebrating the arrival of the French military.
French troops and the Malian army reached the gates of Timbuktu on Saturday and secured the town's airport. But they appear to have got there too late to rescue the leather-bound manuscripts that were a unique record of sub-Saharan Africa (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/africa)'s rich medieval history. The rebels attacked the airport on Sunday, the mayor said.
"It's true. They have burned the manuscripts," Cissé said in a phone interview from Mali (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/mali)'s capital, Bamako. "They also burned down several buildings. There was one guy who was celebrating in the street and they killed him."
He added: "This is terrible news. The manuscripts were a part not only of Mali's heritage but the world's heritage. By destroying them they threaten the world. We have to kill all of the rebels in the north."
On Monday French army officers said French-led forces had entered Timbuktu and secured the town without a shot being fired. A team of French paratroopers crept into the town by moonlight, advancing from the airport, they said. Residents took to the streets to celebrate.
The manuscripts were held in two separate locations: an ageing library and a new South African-funded research centre, the Ahmad Babu Institute, less than a mile away. Completed in 2009 and named after a 17th-century Timbuktu scholar, the centre used state-of-the-art techniques to study and conserve the crumbling scrolls.
Both buildings were burned down, according to the mayor, who said the information came from an informer who had just left the town. Asked whether any of the manuscripts might have survived, Cissé replied: "I don't know."
The manuscripts had survived for centuries in Timbuktu, on the remote south-west fringe of the Sahara desert. They were hidden in wooden trunks, buried in boxes under the sand and in caves. When French colonial rule ended in 1960, Timbuktu residents held preserved manuscripts in 60-80 private libraries.
The vast majority of the texts were written in Arabic. A few were in African languages, such as Songhai, Tamashek and Bambara. There was even one in Hebrew. They covered a diverse range of topics including astronomy, poetry, music, medicine and women's rights. The oldest dated from 1204.
Seydou Traoré, who has worked at the Ahmed Baba Institute since 2003, and fled shortly before the rebels arrived, said only a fraction of the manuscripts had been digitised. "They cover geography, history and religion. We had one in Turkish. We don't know what it said."
He said the manuscripts were important because they exploded the myth that "black Africa" had only an oral history. "You just need to look at the manuscripts to realise how wrong this is."
Some of the most fascinating scrolls included an ancient history of west Africa, the Tarikh al-Soudan, letters of recommendation for the intrepid 19th-century German explorer Heinrich Barth, and a text dealing with erectile dysfunction.
A large number dated from Timbuktu's intellectual heyday in the 14th and 15th centuries, Traoré said. By the late 1500s the town, north of the Niger river, was a wealthy and successful trading centre, attracting scholars and curious travellers from across the Middle East. Some brought books to sell.
Typically, manuscripts were not numbered, Traoré said, but repeated the last word of a previous page on each new one. Scholars had painstakingly numbered several of the manuscripts, but not all, under the direction of an international team of experts.
Mali government forces that had been guarding Timbuktu left the town in late March, as Islamist fighters advanced rapidly across the north. Fighters from al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) – the group responsible for the attack on the Algerian gas facility – then swept in and seized the town, pushing out rival militia groups including secular Tuareg nationalists.
Traoré told the Guardian that he decided to leave Timbuktu in January 2012 amid ominous reports of shootings in the area, and after the kidnapping of three European tourists from a Timbuktu hotel. A fourth tourist, a German, resisted and was shot dead. Months later AQIM arrived, he said.
Four or five rebels had been sleeping in the institute, which had comparatively luxurious facilities for staff, he said. As well as the manuscripts, the fighters destroyed almost all of the 333 Sufi shrines dotted around Timbuktu, believing them to be idolatrous. They smashed a civic statue of a man sitting on a winged horse. "They were the masters of the place," Traoré said.
Other residents who fled Timbuktu said the fighters adorned the town with their black flag. Written on it in Arabic were the words "God is great". The rebels enforced their own brutal and arbitrary version of Islam, residents said, with offenders flogged for talking to women and other supposed crimes. The floggings took place in the square outside the 15th-century Sankoré mosque, a Unesco world heritage site.
"They weren't religious men. They were criminals," said Maha Madu, a Timbuktu boatman, now in the Niger river town of Mopti. Madu said the fighters grew enraged if residents wore trousers down to their ankles, which they believed to be western and decadent. He alleged that some fighters kidnapped and raped local women, keeping them as virtual sex slaves. "They were hypocrites. They told us they couldn't smoke. But they smoked themselves," he said.
The rebels took several other towns south of Timbuktu, he said, including nearby Diré. If the rebels spotted a boat flying the Malian national flag, they ripped the flag off and replaced it with their own black one, he said.
The precise fate of the manuscripts was difficult to verify. All phone communication with Timbuktu was cut off. The town was said to be without electricity, water or fuel. According to Traoré, who was in contact with friends there until two weeks ago, many of the rebels left town following France's military intervention.
He added: "My friend told me they were diminishing in number. He doesn't know where they went. But he said they were trying to hide their cars by painting and disguising them with mud."
The recapture of Timbuktu is another success for the French military, which has now secured two out of three of Mali's key rebel-held sites, including the city of Gao on Saturday. The French have yet to reach the third, Kidal. Local Tuareg militia leaders said on Monday they had taken control of Kidal after the abrupt departure of the Islamist fighters who ran the town.
[I]Reaction
'It's an absolute tragedy'

Essop Pahad, who was chairman of the Timbuktu manuscripts project (http://www.tombouctoumanuscripts.org)for the South African government, said: "I'm absolutely devastated, as everybody else should be. I can't imagine how anybody, whatever their political or ideological leanings, could destroy some of the most precious heritage of our continent. They could not be in their right minds.
"The manuscripts gave you such a fantastic feeling of the history of this continent. They made you proud to be African. Especially in a context where you're told that Africa has no history because of colonialism and all that. Some are in private hands but the fact is these have been destroyed and it's an absolute tragedy."
He added: "It's one of our greatest cultural treasure houses. It's also one of the great treasure houses of Islamic history. The writings are so forward-looking on marriage, on trade, on all sorts of things. If the libraries are destroyed then a very important part of African and world history are gone. I'm so terribly upset at hearing what's happened. I can't think of anything more terrible."
Riason Naidoo, who directed the Timbuktu manuscripts project, said he is still awaiting confirmation of the extent of the damage. "It would be a catastrophe if the reports are true," he said. "I just hope certain parts of the building are unharmed and the manuscripts are safe."
The then South African president, Thabo Mbeki, was inspired by the "intellectual treasure" while visiting Timbuktu in 2001, and initiated a joint project (http://www.southafrica.info/africa/timbuktu-project.htm#.UQai6mBy_PA) between the two countries. He attended the opening of the Ahmad Babu Institute in 2009. A spokeswoman for the Thabo Mbeki Foundation said on Monday: "We haven't yet heard anything concrete as to what the real story is, so at the moment we can't really comment. We're getting mixed stories."

[brigadista]

5TFbEks_zFc

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Saw a piece about this on the news yesterday, my wife was really pissed off (any instance where a piece of history, especially ancient, is destroyed, it really upsets her). I need to take the time to look into this conflict more, the news coverage keeps painting it as France and good Mali-peeps versus evil Islamists. It's always more complicated than that, so need to research it more.
But any group that takes monuments and texts of such historic and cultural significance and destroys them...just awful :(

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I have no words, except that if one burns ancient books, I think that is as close as one can get to being an irredeemable shit without actually hurting people. Except these Islamist fucks have actually hurt people, thus making them irredeemable shits.

What angers me more is that as far as I am aware, there is nothing I can do to prevent or undo this kind of nihilistic and bestial vandalism. Although I've heard that some local people took the opportunity to squirrel away some volumes in their homes, which gives me some hope.

[Yazman]

I am so motherfucking angry about this. Burning books is horrible enough, but when you're BURNING BOOKS THAT HAD TO BE HANDWRITTEN, THAT ARE UNIQUE, I.E. THE ONLY FUCKING COPIES, you have crossed a serious line, ESPECIALLY when they're ancient.

Holy shit this makes me so fucking angry.

[bricolage]

but did it actually happen?


But Vivienne Walt of Time reports that the massive cultural destruction did not occur because preservationists worked for months to hide the trove of documents.
“The documents which had been there are safe, they were not burned,” Mali’s presidential aide on Islamic affairs Mahmoud Zouber told Time. “They were put in a very safe place. I can guarantee you. The manuscripts are in total security.”
Early last year thousands of manuscripts were taken out of the Ahmed Baba Institute and placed in a safe house. Walt reports that staff "left behind just a small portion of them, perhaps out of haste, but also to conceal the fact that the center had been deliberately emptied."
The militants still trashed the remaining documents and the institute's state-of-the-art preservation equipment (not to mention tombs of Muslim saints), but the extent of the damage doesn't appear to be the "world tragedy" that was indicated on Monday.
http://www.businessinsider.com/manuscripts-destroyed-timbuktu-2013-1?0=defense

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

So it looks like things might not be as bad as they appeared at first. That is undeniably good news, but that doesn't negate the fact that Islamist scum are intent on destroying the common heritage of humanity in the name of their psychotic asshole God.

Here's hoping the fuckers tick off the local populace enough to get thrown out.

[Yazman]

Thank fuck the manuscripts were saved. Although they have still done irreparable damage to heritage sites and that is still a tragedy.

To echo Noxion, here's hoping locals get pissed off enough to do something about these fools.

[bricolage]

Here's hoping the fuckers tick off the local populace enough to get thrown out.
Isn't that what the French are doing?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Isn't that what the French are doing?

They should leave as well.

[Hexen]

The destruction of history is all in the basis of "We're destroying idol worship and pray to God".

[bricolage]

They should leave as well.
Obviously.
But talking about local people rising up and kicking out Islamists is pretty academic considering they are already been kicked out by a major military force.

[LeonJWilliams]

Obviously.
But talking about local people rising up and kicking out Islamists is pretty academic considering they are already been kicked out by a major military force.

I thought they were being kicked out by the French...

Anyway, it can be a difficult one but unlike so many US interventions the French in Mali seem to be extremely welcomed, the oppression endured by the Malians in the North is a million times more than any oppression that will come from the elected government.

There should be no problem with the French being in Mali to kill/get rid of the Islamist bastards it was at the request of the Malian government and it will help make peoples lives less oppressed.

Though of course as they are a foreign force they should be careful not to outstay their welcome, which I doubt they will do, again they have a different attitude compared with US interventions.

[bricolage]

Though of course as they are a foreign force they should be careful not to outstay their welcome, which I doubt they will do, again they have a different attitude compared with US interventions.
hmmm, really? (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/24/us-mali-rebels-niger-areva-idUSBRE90N0OD20130124)

also separating US from french in this doesn't really work, american troops have been involved and are already using it to build a drone base (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-01-28/here-come-drones-or-true-reason-mali-incursion) in the region.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Obviously.
But talking about local people rising up and kicking out Islamists is pretty academic considering they are already been kicked out by a major military force.

Have they? I wasn't aware...

[LeonJWilliams]

hmmm, really? (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/24/us-mali-rebels-niger-areva-idUSBRE90N0OD20130124)

also separating US from french in this doesn't really work, american troops have been involved and are already using it to build a drone base (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-01-28/here-come-drones-or-true-reason-mali-incursion) in the region.

That's kind of my point, the US gets involved everywhere, the French don't (always) the US will go in and oust a government all over the world, the French say no (for example the Iraq war) or waits to be asked for help BY a government.

Really didn't think that needed explaining.

[bricolage]

That's kind of my point, the US gets involved everywhere, the French don't (always) the US will go in and oust a government all over the world, the French say no (for example the Iraq war) or waits to be asked for help BY a government.

And in the 19th Century France and Britain got involved everywhere and the US didn't, quite obviously because there have been shifts in superpowers across the years. The French government refused to fight in Iraq because it wasn't in their geopolitical interests not because they are some way nicer than Americans, for example during the Rwandan Genocide the US didn't get involved one inch and the French did... on the side of those committing the genocide. France is the main player in Mali at the moment because it's a former French colony and so has a continued relationship with the government (in any case French foreign policy has normally revolved around supporting any side that speaks French), but as I pointed out they're also using it to protect uranium in Niger and everyone's worried that insurgencies might spread to Nigeria and all the oil that's there.

[Ismail]

The French condemned the US invasion of Iraq because since the 70's France had enjoyed overall friendly and profitable relations with the Ba'athist government, including helping it build nuclear reactors and selling it military equipment during the Iran-Iraq War. That was one of the things Republicans latched onto in the early 2000's to show how "anti-American" France was.

French foreign policy in Africa is blatantly neo-colonial; there's an entire concept called Françafrique which encapsulates it. Bokassa, for instance, owed his continued existence as a leader almost entirely on French support, and when that support evaporated so did his prospects for retaining power. Omar Bongo of oil-rich Gabon was another leader dependent on French support to retain power. Historically the French have always sought strong influence in Mali as in the rest of their former colonies. The French government views these countries as belonging in their "sphere of influence," as it were, and as having the right to intervene in them. Pretty much any mildly left-wing source on France's policies in Africa will point out its exploitative character and behind-the-scenes intrigues from Algeria to Madagascar.

Also, "waits to be asked for help BY a government" doesn't mean much. There was opposition within Mali to French military intervention. "They requested help" is one of the basic justifications used in imperialist invasions and interventions.

[pastradamus]

I honestly dont know which I hate more. The French Imperalist tendencies or Wahabi Islam destroying a UNESCO World Heritage site.

Then there's the Malian government - Corrupt as fuck.

The only good thing i've seen come out of this is a bunch of women happy not to be wearing Veils against their choice. I dont know what to make of this whole conflict other than I think it will take 20 years + to sort itself out.

[Mackenzie_Blanc]

In the wars of the imperialist, western capitalist governments and religious fundamentalist nutjobs, everyone else loses:glare:

[bricolage]

short article here in london review of books, gives a good backstory.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n03/stephen-w-smith/in-search-of-monsters

[Zostrianos]

While I have no illusions about the reasons for France's intervention (they most likely want to strengthen their control over the region), if it hadn't been for the French those taliban scum would still be there. The French are the lesser evil in this case, let's just hope they leave soon.

[cynicles]

Uranium for the French, an ass kicking for the kooks and once again the azawadis' dreams of a nation are squashed by imperialism. The articles coming out of the French press about women naming their children Francois are so hacky even by the standards of Saudi and Israeli propaganda.

[Mackenzie_Blanc]

So an imperialist "enlightened" country attempts to liberate an Arab country from a corrupt government while insurgent religious fanatics try to run them out, while the workers are seen and not heard. The capitalists just love putting square pegs in round holes.

[Ismail]

While I have no illusions about the reasons for France's intervention (they most likely want to strengthen their control over the region), if it hadn't been for the French those taliban scum would still be there. The French are the lesser evil in this case, let's just hope they leave soon.I don't see how this is different from viewing the USA and USSR as the "lesser evil" in Afghanistan, as if Tuareg dissatisfaction with the Malian government (and the exploitation of said dissatisfaction by a reactionary Islamist group) can be separated from the colonial borders set up by the French, aggravated by the actions of a corrupt and neo-colonial Malian government in conditions of poverty engendered by the capitalist system.

France gets to portray itself as the "liberator" of northern Mali, strengthening its influence in the country while emboldening French imperialism at home. I don't see how that's a "lesser evil" for the working-class of Mali or the world.

[Zostrianos]

I don't see how this is different from viewing the USA and USSR as the "lesser evil" in Afghanistan, as if Tuareg dissatisfaction with the Malian government (and the exploitation of said dissatisfaction by a reactionary Islamist group) can be separated from the colonial borders set up by the French, aggravated by the actions of a corrupt and neo-colonial Malian government in conditions of poverty engendered by the capitalist system.

France gets to portray itself as the "liberator" of northern Mali, strengthening its influence in the country while emboldening French imperialism at home. I don't see how that's a "lesser evil" for the working-class of Mali or the world.

The lesser evil for the Malians it certainly is. They're no longer being terrorized by those Islamists (daily executions for trivial crimes, women brutalized, Malian historical sites being destroyed). France and the Malian government might be colonialists, but if I had 2 choices I'd rather be living under them than under wahhabi Islamist thugs. I'm sure anyone would.

[Ismail]

We must defend Islamic/Saudi Arabian imperialism from French imperialism!

Wait, what?Yeah, whomever thinks that is pretty stupid since neither "Islam" nor Saudi Arabia are imperialist powers nor, last time I checked, did Saudi Arabia invade northern Mali.

The PCOF's line on Mali and the French intervention is quite clear: http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv18/pcofmali.html

[Crux]

Statement from DSM (CWI Nigeria) on the imperialist intervention in Mali. (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/6134)

A further article from CWI detailing some of the background to the present situation. (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/6128)