The Gangster Mindset

[Jason]

It seems a lot of people in the USA and other nations like gangster movies and a gangster way of thinking. But it seems that thinking is totally opposite to the concept of the "revolutionary".

Could it be this appeal of "fast money" that is retarding the growth of many groups in the US? How can they develop a revolutionary conscience when they idolize "Scarface" :cool: ?

Could Hollywood be promoting anti-revolutionary ideas under the guise of entertainment?

Look at it this way, for every one successful drug dealer there are 1000 wannabes. No wonder many people are failing at life! So perhaps marxists underestimate the role of personal responsibility in causing poverty. But then again, many are imprisoned in this negative environment, and therefore could not really choose to escape.

Ultimately, the "American Way" is being a gangster. So when kids want to be all punk and stuff, well they're just being American. But mark my words, it produces a very unequal and inferior civilization.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Personal responsibility necessitates free will, which is an absurd position. I'd recommend you read Author Schopenhauer's essay on the subject. Even though I don't agree with the last two sections of it the rest is spot on.

And many of these people who idolize gangsters are urban youth. We have to realize that as Marxists, we have a certain level of privilege since most of us are from the middle class. So it's not that the urban proletariat want the "easy way out", they just want a decent life like the rest of us. Sure, the means is wrong, but what is wrong about the essential desire?

[Ocean Seal]

Could Hollywood be promoting anti-revolutionary ideas under the guise of entertainment?

Not to sound like a dick, but this is something that most people even non-revolutionaries acknowledge. Hollywood is right-leaning, but in addition to the "agenda" (and I use that word lightly) of Hollywood we have to remember that the hegemony of capitalism is so absolute that many time revolutionary ideas are not even thought of. So I don't think that the ideas are explicitly anti-communist, more likely they are anti-progressive, and really just chauvinistic and individualistic.

[Jason]

Not to sound like a dick, but this is something that most people even non-revolutionaries acknowledge. Hollywood is right-leaning, but in addition to the "agenda" (and I use that word lightly) of Hollywood we have to remember that the hegemony of capitalism is so absolute that many time revolutionary ideas are not even thought of. So I don't think that the ideas are explicitly anti-communist, more likely they are anti-progressive, and really just chauvinistic and individualistic.

It's fun entertainment, but it traps people into "chasing dreams" as the rapper Coolio said.

Actually I sounded like a dick condemning thier civilization, but it is true that the ghetto is a terrible place, because it's a gangster environment.



Personal responsibility necessitates free will, which is an absurd position. I'd recommend you read Author Schopenhauer's essay on the subject. Even though I don't agree with the last two sections of it the rest is spot on.

And many of these people who idolize gangsters are urban youth. We have to realize that as Marxists, we have a certain level of privilege since most of us are from the middle class. So it's not that the urban proletariat want the "easy way out", they just want a decent life like the rest of us. Sure, the means is wrong, but what is wrong about the essential desire?


Free will is emphasized by capitalists to say that the poor caused thier own misfortune. I don't agree with that, obviously.

Sure wanting to be rich is a human emotion, but the "gangster way" is the wrong way to acheive it. But youth trapped in the ghetto, know of no other path to a "better life".

[A Revolutionary Tool]

It's not just about "fast money". It's about respect and power, it's about fitting in to a group that will have your back. I would bet most people don't join real street/prison gangs thinking they're going to get rich.

[Manic Impressive]

I made a thread about this before perhaps some of the answers here may help you

http://www.revleft.com/vb/romanticized-crime-t172068/index.html?t=172068

[Let's Get Free]

The Panthers called them "illegitimate capitalists."

[Jason]

The Panthers called them "illegitimate capitalists."

The Panthers have good reason to hate them, because they are the polar opposite of them. For every positive thing the Panthers preach, the gangster preaches something negative.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

The "gangster mentality" hardly seems significantly different from the capitalist mentality, except that it's racialized. So, what's it add up to? We get "good" white entrepreneurs (or the flipside of that coin - cops) and "bad" racialized "gangsters" (who, without the protection of the police, have to do their own dirty work).

Consequently, I wonder about the intent of this thread, or what valuable analysis, if any, can come from its less-than-promising starting point.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

The "gangster mentality" hardly seems significantly different from the capitalist mentality, except that it's racialized. So, what's it add up to? We get "good" white entrepreneurs (or the flipside of that coin - cops) and "bad" racialized "gangsters" (who, without the protection of the police, have to do their own dirty work).

Consequently, I wonder about the intent of this thread, or what valuable analysis, if any, can come from its less-than-promising starting point.

You don't know what you're talking about. The gangsta mentality ( or more commonly known as a g-thang) is more than being a ghetto entrepreneur. Killing each other over the wrong shirt color does not make financial sense.

[freehobo]

Well it could be because people are violent by nature and secretly admire those those with the balls to be outlaws.

Or it could be some brainwashing by the capitalists conditions we live in, and we wont like violence anymore after the state withers away.

Like a good little communist, you better chose #2.

[kashkin]

I would agree with Yet Another Boring Marxis. Urban youth who generally have very little to no chance of social mobility look to such figures as they tend to be rich and powerful (or they wouldn't be idolised or presented in media at all). Most want a better life, and dealing drugs/getting involved in gangs/etc is a way of doing it, and is a method many probably grew up with. Also, considering how much shit they get from the police, the anti-police aspect would be appealing.

[graffic]

Some gangster movies are worse than others for glamourising crime. Goodfella's and Scarface are some of the most seedy, unpleasant films ever made.

There is a forbidden glory about gangsters that people find interesting. Gangsters are just scumbags though.

[Jimmie Higgins]

It seems a lot of people in the USA and other nations like gangster movies and a gangster way of thinking. But it seems that thinking is totally opposite to the concept of the "revolutionary".

Could it be this appeal of "fast money" that is retarding the growth of many groups in the US? How can they develop a revolutionary conscience when they idolize "Scarface" :cool: ?

Could Hollywood be promoting anti-revolutionary ideas under the guise of entertainment?

Look at it this way, for every one successful drug dealer there are 1000 wannabes. No wonder many people are failing at life! So perhaps marxists underestimate the role of personal responsibility in causing poverty. But then again, many are imprisoned in this negative environment, and therefore could not really choose to escape.

Ultimately, the "American Way" is being a gangster. So when kids want to be all punk and stuff, well they're just being American. But mark my words, it produces a very unequal and inferior civilization.

Money has a little to do with it, but most people in Hollywood movies seems to be financially worry-free, so why not just idolize any number of other well-off pop archetypes?

IMO it has to do with the specific class nature of gangster stories and the diesire is more about power and freedom than money itself - though the two are obviously intertwined.

The other thing about the fiction is that the class-transgressing immigrant or black gangster tends to be moralisitically punished in the end. This began even before the Hollywood Code was set in place (though the romanticization was a little less clearly condemned in some of the pre-Code movies) But the Code meant that all gangsters had to be punished explicitly - usually a glamourous or exciting death. Post-code movies deviate but often fall back on these motifs from the code-era. Gangsta rap also heavily references this traddition, but even when there is no consious reference to gangster literature and film, the glam is always offset by the grit, sometimes in really interesting ways, often just in a different sort of moralism.

I also don't think that Hollywood makes these because they want to indocrinate people with anti-revolutionary ideas. They produce music and film like that because they are popular genres and tales. I don't think people are attracted to these stories because they literally want to live like that - not for the most part anyway. Gangster movies and music or not, there would be gangsters in the US with the same economic and social conditions - films and music are a type of reflection of that.

But what people do like about the fiction IMO, is that the classic stories are always a sort of nightmare-version of the American Dream. It's the wish fufillment of the rags-to-riches stories, but the twist (and the realism) is that it's not by doing everything according to bourgeois morals that rewards people, it's killing, destroying, strong-arming, and extoriting your way to the top. People don't know how money is made off derivitives, but they do know people get fucked because of the financial market, for example - so a story about a pimp's rise and fall just puts the exploitation necissary to become rich right out there. "Goodfellas" is the same sort of thing: it's told as if it's a story of the american dream... except you gotta stab the guy in the trunk a few times to make it in America.

So I think that's part of the appeal - to make it as an immigran in america means forgetting the neighborhood and dear ol' Irish ma so you can drive fancy cars, wear smart tuxedoes, etc. In the old movies I've seen there seems to be a motif of people "forgetting where they came from" once they make it to the top and the sort of working class solidarity (of a kind) that led them to defend their fellow neighborhood boys (from other gangsters or sometimes exploitative petty-bourgeois figures and cops) in the first place. The "rise" part of the story usually involves humiliating the (anglo) assimilated old crime boss, and then having a sort of induvidual working class revenge on snoody resturants and upper-class society that would otherwise reject him if he wasn't a gangster with all that money and power. The "fall" part is usually when he becomes paranoid/begins to act like the old anglo-crime-boss/can not control the hungry-greed and ruthlessness that allowed him to rise to the top in America. So rather than glorifying wealth on the one hand or demonizing "bad morals" on the other, I think the appeal of these stories is in-between and in the nuances. To become rich in America means turning yourself into a monster, but then you gain wealth while loosing yourself - in short there is something corrupting and violent about life and wealth in America.

As for real life, like I said, conditions in modern urban society are what create gangs and a black market. So on that level, people aren't selling drugs because of movies - maybe on a subjective level this can be a factor, but ultimately it's not and pleanty of people who do sell drugs or engage in criminal activity bear no resmbleance to people in movies.

And in regards to general emulation: I think this is just a result of needed in act tough in capitalist society - especially for young males. So people always tend to emulate some kind of tough persona to some extent - and if you are in social situations where toughness is more necissary than most - like some stressful job situations, the military, etc then "macho" personas are pretty common.

The antidote ultimately is just a path and vehicle for real solidarity and "making it" together on our terms as a class, rather than just induvidually trying to change our position, only to find in doing so we've just recreated the same shit we tried to get out of.

[Ravachol]

You don't know what you're talking about. The gangsta mentality ( or more commonly known as a g-thang) is more than being a ghetto entrepreneur. Killing each other over the wrong shirt color does not make financial sense.

It does, actually. Physically limiting the operational capability of the competing gang to distribute drugs and control territory is a perfectly sensible cut-throat business strategy. Besides, there's a whole series ideological frameworks that operates in the same way with even less 'financial sense': they're called nationalism and racism.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

It does, actually. Physically limiting the operational capability of the competing gang to distribute drugs and control territory is a perfectly sensible cut-throat business strategy. Besides, there's a whole series ideological frameworks that operates in the same way with even less 'financial sense': they're called nationalism and racism.
Than you should beat not kill them. Murder draws the attention of cops and is therefore bad business sense. Being gangsta is more than making money. It is an entirely idiotic but unique lifestyle that promotes stupidity and excess (lumpen proles meets petitribalism)

[Ravachol]

Than you should beat not kill them. Murder draws the attention of cops and is therefore bad business sense. Being gangsta is more than making money. It is an entirely idiotic but unique lifestyle that promotes stupidity and excess (lumpen proles meets petitribalism)

You've obviously never seen the petty squabbles and self-aggrandizing rivalries that go on in corporate culture within the legal sector of Capital that jeopardize 'pure' financial logic...

Gangs proclaim to offer what society fails to deliver: community and mutual support. Most gangs start out as structures of mutual support and friendship born out of the necessities of a life on the margins, before degenerating into a particular business model whose main recruitment policy lies in the protection and status it offers as well as its cultural aspect (ie. what you seem to describe as 'gangsta culture'). Gangs in and of themselves are not much different than any of the thousands of other terrible pseudo-communities this society throws up in the absence of structural affective ties. It is also worth remembering that the origins of the labor movement lie within a mixture of working class gangs involved in workplace theft, sabotage and petty criminality.

In a fragmented society where all human community is gone, there's bound to be a myriad of community-substitute identities that define themselves on the basis of exclusion and competition (race, nation, gang, enterprise, 'white color', 'blue color', etc.). No more than logical.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

You've obviously never seen the petty squabbles and self-aggrandizing rivalries that go on in corporate culture within the legal sector of Capital that jeopardize 'pure' financial logic...

Gangs proclaim to offer what society fails to deliver: community and mutual support. Most gangs start out as structures of mutual support and friendship born out of the necessities of a life on the margins, before degenerating into a particular business model whose main recruitment policy lies in the protection and status it offers as well as its cultural aspect (ie. what you seem to describe as 'gangsta culture'). Gangs in and of themselves are not much different than any of the thousands of other terrible pseudo-communities this society throws up in the absence of structural affective ties. It is also worth remembering that the origins of the labor movement lie within a mixture of working class gangs involved in workplace theft, sabotage and petty criminality.

In a fragmented society where all human community is gone, there's bound to be a myriad of community-substitute identities that define themselves on the basis of exclusion and competition (race, nation, gang, enterprise, 'white color', 'blue color', etc.). No more than logical.

Still, ride till i die, reping da block, money and the cars, the cars and the hoes, that is believed in by rank in file gang members seems closer to feudalism than to capitalism.

[Ravachol]

Still, ride till i die, reping da block, money and the cars, the cars and the hoes, that is believed in by rank in file gang members seems closer to feudalism than to capitalism.

You think so? Commodity fetishism seems like a perfectly normal symptom of Capital's logic to me. Besides, you refer to tropes from mainstream 'gangsta rap', which is quite different from the culture in the actual banlieus, projects and estates, something that can be seen in the lyrics of music emerging from there (as opposed to from the MTV mansions of musical entrepreneurs) alone. But I don't really see much difference between the whole American Dream bullshit, the Gordon Gekko cut-throat corporate climber stereotype and the 'get rich, get hoes' thing. It's a different permutation of the same cultural matrix.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

You think so? Commodity fetishism seems like a perfectly normal symptom of Capital's logic to me. Besides, you refer to tropes from mainstream 'gangsta rap', which is quite different from the culture in the actual banlieus, projects and estates, something that can be seen in the lyrics of music emerging from there (as opposed to from the MTV mansions of musical entrepreneurs) alone. But I don't really see much difference between the whole American Dream bullshit, the Gordon Gekko cut-throat corporate climber stereotype and the 'get rich, get hoes' thing. It's a different permutation of the same cultural matrix.

Have you been to a projest recently? Fuck dem n---s get that money, and defend da block is an actual belief system. There are many who are more loyal to the gang than to getting paid.

[Ravachol]

Have you been to a projest recently? Fuck dem n---s get that money, and defend da block is an actual belief system. There are many who are more loyal to the gang than to getting paid.

I'm done talking to you, you don't address any arguments but just repeat stupid infantile soundbites ad nauseam. You either don't understand what I write, are unwilling to engage with it or you're just trolling. In either case, good you're restricted.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

I'm done talking to you, you don't address any arguments but just repeat stupid infantile soundbites ad nauseam. You either don't understand what I write, are unwilling to engage with it or you're just trolling. In either case, good you're restricted.

I addressed you by saying that hard core gangsta foot soldiers care more for power and control than capital. You are right when you say that capitalism is the initial cause, but these groups can morph into entirely new types of entities (and yes not all gangs are incurably evil and yes some movements arrose from what we now call gangs, although using the triads as an example is really idiotic.)

[Ravachol]

I addressed you by saying that hard core gangsta foot soldiers care more for power and control than capital.


Why? What use is 'power and control' alone? Can you back up this statement?



You are right when you say that capitalism is the initial cause, but these groups can morph into entirely new types of entities

How do these gangs not operate as capitalist entities? This implies the possibility of non-capitalist relationships existing within Capital, something you'll have a hard case arguing for.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Why? What use is 'power and control' alone? Can you back up this statement?

I don't have my links, merely the summaries of converstations with gang members (and real ones too, not tiny little cliques operating out of their mommas attics) To them money is a tool, not a end all thing. They have a warped neomedieval mindset of defending a certain group and leaders due to honor and glory of it. The sense of power in a powerless community eventually needs a bullshit ideology to justify itself. Sadly some people try to make those ideologies reality


How do these gangs not operate as capitalist entities? This implies the possibility of non-capitalist relationships existing within Capital, something you'll have a hard case arguing for.
They act as semi capitalist entities yes, but fashion themselves more as medieval knights.

[Ravachol]

They act as semi capitalist entities yes, but fashion themselves more as medieval knights.

... I seriously doubt any gangbanger kid fashions him or herself as a 'medieval knight'. Besides, how does a serious criminal gang function as a 'semi-capitalist' entity? It's simply an enterprise in the illegal sector of the economy, resembling the most ruthless of large corporations more and more (including the strong division of labor, complex logistical structure, business strategies, etc.) as they grow in prominence. Take a look at the mexican cartels for example.

As I said in another thread, the higher you move up the chain within a criminal organisation, the closer you get to bourgeois networks of the legal sector of the economy (prominent real estate developers, bankers, top lawyers, etc.) whilst the lower layers of a criminal organisation (drug runners, for example) are illegalised proletarians who still live shit lives, spiced up with a pseudo-tribalist ideology, much like how workerist ideology serves to spice up the blue collar proletarian's world and how the carreerist/american dream ideology spices up that of the white collar professional.

The antipathy people feel towards certain practices or phenomena often obscures their vision of how these things function, structurally speaking. But to be honest, when you look at a world were perfectly legal corporations drive thousands of their lands, nation states bomb millions into oblivion and all life is massacred and sucked dry in the name of Capital, a douchebag attitude that comes with a particular position in the economic constellation is the least thing to be offended by, i'd say.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Ugh. These weird racialized "gansta" references are fucking awful.
If you think any of this "petty tribalism" is unique to "gangstas" you must live in a wonderful bubble that I'd love to visit some day. The flip side of that being, if you don't think that gangstas are part of communities, don't create networks of support, etc., then I think you must hold a pretty MTV view of the subject. I'm not saying that in defense of gangsterism, rather, I think that this has to be talked about in waaaay more specific terms to be of any value, otherwise you could change every instance of "gangster" in this thread to "punk" with very little consequence.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

... I seriously doubt any gangbanger kid fashions him or herself as a 'medieval knight'. Besides, how does a serious criminal gang function as a 'semi-capitalist' entity? It's simply an enterprise in the illegal sector of the economy, resembling the most ruthless of large corporations more and more (including the strong division of labor, complex logistical structure, business strategies, etc.) as they grow in prominence. Take a look at the mexican cartels for example.

As I said in another thread, the higher you move up the chain within a criminal organisation, the closer you get to bourgeois networks of the legal sector of the economy (prominent real estate developers, bankers, top lawyers, etc.) whilst the lower layers of a criminal organisation (drug runners, for example) are illegalised proletarians who still live shit lives, spiced up with a pseudo-tribalist ideology, much like how workerist ideology serves to spice up the blue collar proletarian's world and how the carreerist/american dream ideology spices up that of the white collar professional.

The antipathy people feel towards certain practices or phenomena often obscures their vision of how these things function, structurally speaking. But to be honest, when you look at a world were perfectly legal corporations drive thousands of their lands, nation states bomb millions into oblivion and all life is massacred and sucked dry in the name of Capital, a douchebag attitude that comes with a particular position in the economic constellation is the least thing to be offended by, i'd say.


Mideaval knight no, repping their crew and block yes(which to the average idiot means more than money) We're not saying that the gangsta mentality makes sense, just that it exists in some lower level recruits . You hit the nail on he head with everything else though ( that is until a crazy mothafucka rises in the ranks and leads his crew in an insane 3 month reign of terror)

[Ravachol]

Mideaval knight no, repping their crew and block yes(which to the average idiot means more than money)


Which, as Virgin Molotov Cocktail pointed out above, is not unique to some 'gangster mentality'. Football firms, student fraternities, regionalist and nationalist movements and corporate culture all do the same thing, though in different terms.


that is until a crazy mothafucka rises in the ranks and leads his crew in an insane 3 month reign of terror

Which never happens, and for a reason. Even the most gruesome acts of terror perpetrated by the Mexican cartels, ie. public beheadings and dropping the heads in enemy territory, serve a 'rational' purpose, the defense of territory, demoralizing the enemy, ensuring rank & file discipline (much like how Roman decimation worked) and discouraging defection or recruitment by the competition.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Which, as Virgin Molotov Cocktail pointed out above, is not unique to some 'gangster mentality'. Football firms, student fraternities, regionalist and nationalist movements and corporate culture all do the same thing, though in different terms.



Which never happens, and for a reason. Even the most gruesome acts of terror perpetrated by the Mexican cartels, ie. public beheadings and dropping the heads in enemy territory, serve a 'rational' purpose, the defense of territory, demoralizing the enemy, ensuring rank & file discipline (much like how Roman decimation worked) and discouraging defection or recruitment by the competition.

Fuck people we're getting off point. If anything gangs are extreme fraternity. No matter the reasons behind it a mindset is a mindset.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Ugh. These weird racialized "gansta" references are fucking awful.
If you think any of this "petty tribalism" is unique to "gangstas" you must live in a wonderful bubble that I'd love to visit some day. The flip side of that being, if you don't think that gangstas are part of communities, don't create networks of support, etc., then I think you must hold a pretty MTV view of the subject. I'm not saying that in defense of gangsterism, rather, I think that this has to be talked about in waaaay more specific terms to be of any value, otherwise you could change every instance of "gangster" in this thread to "punk" with very little consequence.

Most present day gangs extort more than they support.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Most present day gangs extort more than they support.

No doubt at all. By the same token, I'd say the same about most fraternal organizations.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

No doubt at all. By the same token, I'd say the same about most fraternal organizations.

You're fucking with me right?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

You're fucking with me right?

When understood in a holistic sense it's true, though. Sure, a University frat, for example, doesn't necessarily carry out violence directly (oh, wait, I guess endemic rape probably counts), but their insulation from violence is premised on their relationship with institutionalized forces of violence and repression.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

When understood in a holistic sense it's true, though. Sure, a University frat, for example, doesn't necessarily carry out violence directly (oh, wait, I guess endemic rape probably counts), but their insulation from violence is premised on their relationship with institutionalized forces of violence and repression.

You seem to have your head jammed way up your revolutionary ass. Fuck this conversation.

[Ravachol]

Fuck people we're getting off point. If anything gangs are extreme fraternity. No matter the reasons behind it a mindset is a mindset.

So... Your point being?

A mindset is never 'just a mindset' and saying 'whatever the reasons behind it' is just a convenient way of intelligently engaging with a phenomenon. Its important to deconstruct stupid mystifications, whether of a political, racial, national or (sub)cultural nature so I don't see how that's off point. It's the whole purpose of the thread no?

[hetz]

Well this thread indeed hasn't been very constructive.
:lol:

[Jason]

Well it could be because people are violent by nature and secretly admire those those with the balls to be outlaws.

Or it could be some brainwashing by the capitalists conditions we live in, and we wont like violence anymore after the state withers away.

Like a good little communist, you better chose #2.

I don't think everything is the result of capitalist oppression.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

You seem to have your head jammed way up your revolutionary ass. Fuck this conversation.

Stunning argument. I'm certainly convinced. [/sarcasm] :rolleyes: