How to remove Christian Predominace in western society?

[Hexen]

I don't know where to post this at but is there a way to get rid of the deeply rooted Christian predominance in western society especially in a post-revolutionary society? Iconoclasm is the only thing I can come up with.

Of course for one example, there must be a way to get nudity/sexuality open again (as in getting rid of the "Violence/Blood/Gore = Good Sexuality/Nudity = Bad" mentality like censoring nipples/genitals/sexual scenes/etc while leaving the violence and blood & gore intact. Of course I also found this site (http://www.tantra.co.nz/tantrafiles/nudity/hazardoustochildren/index.htm) along the way. ) like it was in Ancient times before Christianity came along.

[hetz]

You can't "remove" such superstructures and thousands of years of tradition like that. You can't abolish religion either.
I also don't see what nudity going open has to do with Christianity.

[l'Enfermé]

Texas doesn't represent "western society" comrade.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Christianity seems to be on the downswing in the US, to be replaced with a hodgepodge of semi-religious practices and general apathy. Even some of the Muslims i know have begun to practice gift giving during Christmas, which is a pretty serious offense in the eyes of the old hardliners. Perhaps capitalism will deal with religion on its own.

[LeonJWilliams]

The key to getting rid of religion (or specifically Christianity in the western world) in my personal opinion is to just ignore it, it certainly seems to be working in the UK.

The 2011 England & Wales census results which were partially released this month showed that Christianity has fallen 12% in 10 years.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I think an immediate factor of which we need to be aware is that Christianity -- or any religion for that matter -- is not a monolithic thing. There is fascist Christianity, conservative Christianity, liberal Christianity, and even communalist Christianity. Rather than attempting to eliminate some of the foundational views of nearly 2 billion people, it might be more productive to focus on organizing with Christians who are of a left perspective. Really, if someone is an anti-capitalist, does it matter if they believe in a deity or not?

[Hexen]

I think an immediate factor of which we need to be aware is that Christianity -- or any religion for that matter -- is not a monolithic thing. There is fascist Christianity, conservative Christianity, liberal Christianity, and even communalist Christianity. Rather than attempting to eliminate some of the foundational views of nearly 2 billion people, it might be more productive to focus on organizing with Christians who are of a left perspective. Really, if someone is an anti-capitalist, does it matter if they believe in a deity or not?

Yes it is monolithic when you consider things like the Great Chain of Being (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_chain_of_being) for example (well it appears that class society and capitalism stems from Platonism which is a product of western philosophy).

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

Yes it is monolithic when you consider things like the Great Chain of Being (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_chain_of_being) for example (well it appears that class society and capitalism stems from Platonism which is a product of western philosophy).
I think he means it´s not homogenous i.e. there are different trends and interpretations of christianity etc.

also, what do you mean when you say capitalism "stems from" Platonism?

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I think he means it´s not homogenous i.e. there are different trends and interpretations of christianity etc.

also, what do you mean when you say capitalism "stems from" Platonism?

Yeah, that is what I meant. There are so many varities of Christianity that differ fundamentally that the label really does not mean much anymore. Also, class society predates Plato by a very long time.

[Broha]

I think the problem of Christianity will probably solve itself for the most part. In the US, I believe the percent of the population that describes themselves as "nonreligious" is up to 16 percent now, and is quickly growing.

[Anti-Traditional]

As someone living in the UK I always find it astonishing to hear how members from other countries live in societies where religion is so dominant. Over here in the UK virtually nobody attends Church and those who are Christian tend to be pretty liberal and focus on social justice. However I should also add that the past year has been quite worrying and might indicate a regression from Secularism, for example the Church of England has been the object of greater attention due to its decision to oppose female bishops and also has been given a platform to discuss the Gay marriage debate, indeed it seems since Rowan Williams stepped down the CofE has dropped all pretence of social liberalism. In spite of all this UK cultural life is overwhelmingly secular and most Christians are pretty liberal anyway even if their leaders arent.

[TheMadHatter]

Christianity is in and of it's self unimportant. What will
Truly matter is the individual Christian and the view they chose to support.
Perhaps agnosticism will prevail over blind faith. Most Christians will admit
that their god is unprovable.

[piet11111]

Teach in schools the scientific method that evidence is required before something can be accepted as truth.

And remove any tax benefits to churches and similar houses of worship this would quickly make the upkeep of them impossible to fund without the donations of the churchgoers.

And also the history of religion should be taught in schools and the incredible negative effects it had on humanity.
I think that all the crazy shit that went on in the vatican in medieval times would do a lot of good debunking the idea that those clowns are close to god.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

As someone living in the UK I always find it astonishing to hear how members from other countries live in societies where religion is so dominant. Over here in the UK virtually nobody attends Church and those who are Christian tend to be pretty liberal and focus on social justice. However I should also add that the past year has been quite worrying and might indicate a regression from Secularism, for example the Church of England has been the object of greater attention due to its decision to oppose female bishops and also has been given a platform to discuss the Gay marriage debate, indeed it seems since Rowan Williams stepped down the CofE has dropped all pretence of social liberalism. In spite of all this UK cultural life is overwhelmingly secular and most Christians are pretty liberal anyway even if their leaders arent.

Well, a majority of the votes were in favor of women bishops, just not a supermajority.

While I think some of the older Marxist notions of religion were excessively reductionist, the central point that religious doctrine will on some level reflect class society has some truth to it. So if we have a Communist society, the focus of Christianity would change (not to mention there would probably be an increase in secularism). This doesn't mean that there won't be homophobic or sexist Christians, but they will no longer be able to dominate the narrative.

[Ismail]

The way to "remove Christian predominance" is the same way you remove "Hindu predominance" in India, or "Muslim predominance" in the Islamic-majority countries, etc. Namely, through the propagation of science, the struggle against the reactionary clergy, and the construction of socialism and communism which remove the great social and economic contradictions which give rise to religious revivals to begin with.

[Brutus]

Show the bad side of Christianity, that science has done great things for us in a tiny period of time, whereas religion held us back for hundreds of years (dark ages).
Also, get the CHEKA to execute priests, burn the churches, then build apartments for the homeless where the churches were.

[Czesio]

Also, get the CHEKA to execute priests, burn the churches, then build apartments for the homeless where the churches were.

I don't think it'll work. Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church survived in underground despite Soviet represions. Also other group like Roman Catholics and Old Believers practiced their faith underground in USSR. And don't forget that Christianity has very strong tradition of matrydom and being persecuted. For many Christians, faith is integral part of their vision of the world and they don't give it up so easily.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Well I think the first thing about understanding religion is not to see it purely in idealistic terms - that is, that the actual ideology is secondary to religion. Also religion has to be broken down according to the social roles played at different levels. So while major religious institutions are generally very conservative, such as the catholic church, often followers - particularly in non-prodestant religions where people are often religious in a cultural way while not being religious like an evangelical fundamentalist - practice that religion and experience it in a much different way, often "picking and choosing" what theological dictates to actually uphold (even fundamentalists do that, they just want everyone to follow their particular interpretation).

So even "monolithic" religions still have some flexibility in that their supporting base is open to other influences in society.

Then there is the social function of religion. So in the US christian churches have taken up the gaps in society caused by privitization and 40 years of neoliberalism. Faith-based inititatves (supported by both parties) are a smokescreen - it's not Bush's evangelicalism that motivated this, it's the desire to gut social services and privitize it - religion is a way to make that appealing to a portion of the population. For the churches itself, it gives them social relevance and a base of support - like the golden dawn's community programs. A lot of so-called "radical islam" is popular among the most downtrodden because they also provide services and a higher calling for people thrown to the side of the road by capitalism and imperialism - they also were able to surplass the secular Nationalist-movements as the "anti-imperialist" force in society because the Nationalists were too quick to appease the US and Israel.

So in short, religion just won't "go away" on it's own because among many other things it gives people a sense of "meaning" in a world where otherwise their "meaning" is mearly being a cog in a profit-making-machine. Would being a supernaturually "chosen" or "saved" person be much more appealing than being born to work all your life and never get anywhere? So as long as capitalism makes life alienating for people, then some will turn to relief from that alienation - even if it's some kind of magical tale.

Religion also can't be eliminated through "education" - this presents religion mearly as ideology and ignores all the more material usefulness of religion for people. What good is Darwin to someone who is jobless and starving - they aren't going to evolve to a being that doesn't need to eat. But the religious prothlytizer offeres a community where people won't judge the homeless person if he accepts their beliefs and their tales of belif in God bringing out the best in people is backed up by their charity efforts. Science won't counter that. This formulation also implies that religious people are just ignorent and dupes - this is not the case and if it were then there would be no prospect for working class self-emancipation because people are mearly "sheep".

People believe in all sorts of myths and unscientific things - most are secular! So I don't see combating religion on an ideological basis to be very productive. In addition it could alienate people with religious ideas but working class concerns and would want to strike and could be militants potentially.

So I think the key is not "fighting religion" but finding a more effective and genuine way to deliver on the things that religion seeks to adress. The appeal of "milk and honey in the sky" is less when workers are shown to be capable of striking and winning and gaining things for themselves and people like them in the here and now! Christian charity will be shown to be hollow when homeless are able to organize themselves and make their own demands for relief, housing, and safty from police. The sense of meaning and belonging that churches offer will not be a draw when we smash an alientating world and replace it with one of real community and where "to live" has an inherent meaning in of itself because our lives will belong to us, we won't have to sell the best hours of the day and the best years of our life for the enrichment of the people who keep us down.

So to counter the negative aspects of contemporary religion, it's not so much about attacking those religions but out-competing them, offering something more real than a pie in the sky when you die.

[Tjis]

Religion (or more accurately religious fundamentalism, where religion is a life perspective rather than something one is born into) is more than a belief or a set of practices. It is people living and talking primarily within their own in-circle, as in, those that believe as they do. Religions stick around because for the religious, there's no credible source (as in, someone within their in-circle) to convince them otherwise. The religious fundamentalist will deny such things as evolution even when presented with all the facts, simply because the arguments of their friends, their family, and most of all their priest counts more, however flawed these arguments might be.

So how to deal with that? Ethical issues aside, social networks do not crumble simply because a priest is arrested, or because a church is destroyed. The only way I think is viable is to to break open the in-circle, allowing other views to become credible. Ensure that volunteer efforts in communities aren't all evangelical, but invite the evangelicals to cooperate. Win their trust, become credible, etc.

By the way, I disagree with posters who say religion will disappear when the material conditions that gave rise to it disappear. That's like saying books disappear when you break the press that printed them. If religion (or at least its dogmatic, fundamentalist component) is to disappear, it better be before a revolution, not after.

[Red Commissar]

There's a lot of challenges with this. Previous cases of trying to destroy religious authority have sometimes backfired and only resulted in them strengthening. I don't think there's a simple thing you can do to do get rid of it.

In addition to targeting those clerics with reactionary intents, there has to be a way of undercutting the basis of support for religion in the first place. Why are people going to it? Is it something that gives them identity as an oppressed people? Does it serve an important social role in a poor community? Is it a way for a rich bourgeoisie to justify his/her position in the country?

Honestly one reason why I'm not religious is because I never really had a need to turn to one in the first place. I already have social contact with out it. I have a crapshoot job but I'm not in danger of not meeting my needs. I take enjoyment from activities that are not tied to going to a place of worship.

I think there's a generational factor here too. If you were born into a deeply religious community there's a good chance that'll stay with you as you get older and it'll be hard to get out. Yes, I know there's plenty of you who can speak to the opposite and have broken from religion despite being raised in a religious household. I think by and large though it's easier for people born into different circumstances to break with religion, as opposed to those who've been steeped in it and consider themselves a follower for many years.

Alot of places in the US that can be considered working class tend to be drowned in religion, and it has a lot of influence on them to boot. So like Jimmie Higgins said its important to find the reasons why people turn to them in the first place rather than solely focusing on the flaws of a religion or why its stupid/oppressive/reactionary/what ever.

[Zostrianos]

Secularisation as well as more and more immigration and multiculturalism will make this possible. In Canada and Western Europe, Christian influence is dying out quickly. And even in America, despite the power fundamentalists still have, Christian influence is noticeably (albeit slowly) declining.
What I'm worried about is the third world which is under invasion by missionaries, and will undoubtedly succumb to Christianity (in its most vile and extreme form, as has happened in Africa).
Another part of the world that's worrisome is eastern Europe and Greece, where the church still wields undue power in society and governments, and religious discrimination is rampant - in Greece, where the orthodox church is closely tied with the government and uses corruption (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/mar/20/greece) to pull strings in its favour (despite Greece being a secular state in theory), religious minorities are often discriminated against, the church has encouraged anti semitism, and even attacks by Christians against other groups have taken place (a Neopagan bookstore in Athens was torched a few years back). And sadly, the tragic situation in Greece right now will probably only strengthen the church's stranglehold on society.