Mass shooting at Connecticut school, 27 dead, 18 children [Archive]

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Ostrinski

14th December 2012, 20:23

There's been a mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut
We're told there are 18-20 children who have been killed, with a death toll close to 30
Law enforcement tells CNN suspect is named Ryan Lanza
Below are the latest updates as they come to us or you can read our story of the Connecticut school shooting
[Updated at 3:16 p.m. ET] From the president: "I offer Gov. Malloy my condolences on behalf of the nation."

The president appears to be emotional, he's wiping his left eye.

[Updated at 3:14 p.m. ET] The president will talk soon. You can watch him on our live stream here.

[Updated at 3:12 p.m. ET] President Obama has ordered flags to be lowered to half-staff as a mark of respect for the victims “of the senseless acts of violence perpetrated on December 14, 2012, in Newtown, Connecticut,” according to a release from the White House.

[Updated at 3:09 p.m. ET] The suspect's mother was shot and killed at the school, according to source close to the investigation. She was a teacher there.

And we now know that Ryan Lanza, the suspected gunman, was 24.

[Updated at 3:01 p.m. ET] The principal and guidance counselor at Sandy Hook Elementary School were both killed during the shooting, according to a witness that spoke to CNN.

[Updated at 2:52 p.m. ET] We have just learned via a tweet from House Speaker John Boehner that flags at the U.S. Capitol will be lowered.

Speaker John Boehner
✔
@SpeakerBoehner
Have ordered flags over the @uscapitol to be lowered in tribute to families & victims at #SandyHook. #prayfornewtown
14 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
[Updated at 2:47 p.m. ET] President Obama will make a statement on the tragedy at 3:15 p.m. ET. We'll have that live on CNN TV and right here.

[Updated at 2:45 p.m. ET] Various locations are being used as staging areas around Newtown. This is outside the Newtown Methodist Church near the school where a woman is hugging a child.

[Updated at 2:39 p.m. ET] Federal law enforcement officials have told CNN's John King that the shooting happened quickly and happened in a concentrated area.

[Updated at 2:32 p.m. ET] Connecticut Gov. Malloy will be in Newtown and talk about the tragedy today at 3:30 p.m. ET.

[Updated at 2:20 p.m. ET] We are now hearing from CNN's Mary Snow, who is reporting from outside the suspect's home, that dozens of law enforcement officials are on the scene.

Neighbors are "shaken," Snow said.

[Updated at 2:11 p.m. ET] CNN's Susan Candiotti has just reported that a law enforcement official tells her the suspect is named Ryan Lanza and he is in his 20s.

[Updated at 2:09 p.m. ET] We're hearing even more devastating news out of Newtown, Connecticut. CNN's Susan Candiotti has been told that 18 to 20 of the dead are children.

[Updated at 2:07 p.m. ET] CNN's Jessica Yellin is reporting that we're likely to hear from President Obama today on the school shooting, according to a senior administration official. We don't know when our where we may hear from President Obama.

[Updated at 2:04 p.m. ET] Lisa Procaccini, the parent of an 8-year-old at the school, tells CNN that her daughter said school officials kept her calm during the shooting and told her the loud noise was hammering going on.

Eventually police came in and let her daughter and her teacher leave the school building.

"I'm even kind of numb about what's going on," she told CNN's Wolf Blitzer. "I'm in a state of shock. I don't know how Im going to handle having [my daughter] know ... about the whole situation."

[Updated at 1:57 p.m. ET] The death toll is closer to 30 than 20, a federal law enforcement source in Washington told CNN's John King. Most of those killed are children, the source said.

The source also said the suspected gunman, who is dead, had a connection to the school. He would not elaborate on that connection. The source is in touch with authorities on the scene.

[Updated at 1:53 p.m. ET] Congresswoman-elect Elizabeth Esty, who was recently won a seat representing a district that includes Newtown, Connecticut, just released the following statement on the tragedy:

As a mother, I can only begin to imagine what the students, parents, teachers and staff of Sandy Hook Elementary must be experiencing. My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone impacted by this horrific tragedy. While details are still emerging, I hope for the safety and well being of the children, teachers and staff at Sandy Hook Elementary and for the Newtown community.

[Updated at 1:51 p.m. ET] We have just learned that the suspected shooter is 20-years-old, a law enforcement source with knowledge of the investigation tells CNN’s Susan Candiotti.

[Updated at 1:47 p.m. ET] A few more details from the White House press briefing earlier. White House spokesman Jay Carney said while today is not the day to debate gun policy, an assault weapons ban "does remain a commitment" of President Obama.

[Updated at 1:45 p.m. ET] We are now learning that a male is being questioned by investigators, but he is not being called a suspect, CNN's Susan Candiotti reports.

[Updated at 1:42 p.m. ET] Connecticut State Police Lt. Paul Vance said the shooter is dead inside the school.

Libor [email protected]
State police PIO Lt. Paul Vance: "The shooter is deceased inside the building."
14 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
Vance said there are a number of fatalities that includes both children and adults. He did not add more details about how many people were killed during the school shooting.

[Updated at 1:41 p.m. ET] Police have now begun their briefing on the shooting.

[Updated at 1:32 p.m. ET] We're hearing more from the scene of the massacre through tweets and interviews.

Hena [email protected]
9 yr old tells me police told children to close their eyes as they were escorted down the school hallways. #Newtown #sandyhook
14 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
Rep. John [email protected]
According to my sister, teachers @ Sandy Hook school handled situation incredibly well.
14 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
[Updated at 1:23 p.m. ET] President Obama has spoken to FBI Director Robert Mueller and Connecticut Gov. Dan Malloy to get the latest information and express his condolences, White House spokesman Jay Carney said.

[Updated at 1:21 p.m. ET] We're now hearing that it may be a while for the briefing from the police.

[Updated at 1:17 p.m. ET] This was the scene from the air earlier, taken by News 12 Connecticut, with emergency vehicles in the school parking lot.

[Updated at 1:09 p.m. ET] The police are set to give a news conference soon where we'll learn more. We'll bring that to you as soon as it starts.

[Updated at 1:07 p.m. ET] Here's the chilling account told to CNN's Meredith Artley of what happened at the school.

[Updated at 12:59 p.m. ET] Many people are talking again about gun control. But White House spokesman Jay Carney isn't joining in for now.

"I think it's important on a day like today to view this as I know the president, as a father does and I as a father and others who are parents certainly do, which is to feel enormous sympathy for families that are affected and to do everything we can to support state and local law enforcement and support those who are enduring what appears to be a very tragic event. There is, I'm sure, will be, rather, a day for discussion of the usual Washington policy debates but I don't think today is that day.

[Updated at 12:57 p.m. ET] From the News Times reporter at the school:

Libor [email protected]
9 y/o girl says that "police with big guns" led her classmates out of the building. Asked them to cover their eyes.
14 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
[Updated at 12:48 p.m. ET] "Close to 20” people have been killed, including at least 10 children, a law enforcement source with knowledge of the investigation says.

[Updated at 12:47 p.m. ET] President Barack Obama has been informed of the school shooting in Connecticut and will receive regular updates throughout the day, the White House said on Friday.

[Updated at 12:27 p.m. ET] The mom who spoke to CNN's Meredith Artley said she heard "at least 100 rounds" being fired.

The shooting began about 9:35 a.m., the parent said. There was a "pop pop pop" in the hall outside the room. Three people went out of the room into the hall where the sounds had come from. "Only one person came back," we were told.

The witness told Artley that she then called 911. She said she never saw the shooter but she later was escorted outside the room past two bodies lying in blood.

[Updated at 12:20 p.m. ET] A third-grader describes the shooting to WTNH:

[Updated at 12:16 p.m. ET] Two adults were killed, according to a parent who was at the school during the incident, and who talked to our colleague Meredith Artley.

[Updated at 12:12 p.m. ET] We just got this from U.S. Senator-elect Chris Murphy:

"I am shocked and saddened by the horrific news from Sandy Hook Elementary School this morning, and I pray that kids, teachers, staff, and families reach safety as quickly as possible. While we don't have much information right now, our thoughts are with the victims and their loved ones."

[Updated at 12:05 p.m. ET] The shooter's body is in a classroom, a source with knowledge of the investigation tells CNN’s Susan Candiotti.

[Updated at 12:02 p.m. ET] Multiple local media are reporting there are fatalities. We're checking.

[Updated at noon ET] News Times reporter Libor Jany reports that all Newtown schools are on lockdown.

Libor [email protected]
Newtown First Selectman Pat Llodra says that all Newtown schools are on lockdown. pic.twitter.com/GCDbYT3C

14 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
[Updated at 11:58 a.m. ET] Danbury Hospital confirms it's treating some victims. It says this on its Facebook page:

To date, three patients have been transported to Danbury Hospital from the scene. Out of abundance of caution and not because of any direct threat Danbury Hospital is under lockdown. This allows us simply to focus on the important work at hand.

[Updated at 11:54 a.m. ET] Connecticut House Rep. John Frey has nieces and a nephew at the school and is tweeting updates.

Rep. John [email protected]
Sister is w/my nieces & nephew at Sandy Hook Firehouse. Awful situation
14 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
[Updated at 11:47 a.m. ET] The dad of a student at the school told CNN affiliate WTNH there were about 600 pupils in the building at the time of the shooting.

[Updated at 11:45 a.m. ET] At least three people were wounded and are in "very serious" condition at a hospital in Danbury, Connecticut, that town's mayor, Mark Boughton told CNN. He couldn't say whether the victims were children.

[Updated at 11:44 a.m. ET] Andrew Doba, Director of Communications with Connecticut Governor Malloy's office, says they are coordinating with local authorities and state police. They continue to monitor developments in Newtown. The governor is in Connecticut today.

[Updated at 11:40 a.m. ET] We're getting live pictures from the scene from CNN affiliates.

[Updated at 11:34 a.m. ET] The shooter is dead, a source with knowledge of the investigation, tells CNN’s Susan Candiotti.

Police have recovered two weapons from him, the source added.

It's not known whether police killed the alleged shooter or he took his own life. The source says one weapon recovered is a Glock and the other is a Sig Sauer.

[Updated at 11:27 a.m. ET] The Hartford Courant, citing police, said an unspecified number of people had been shot. The nature of their injuries was unclear, the newspaper said. But it cited police in saying one person had "numerous gunshot wounds."

[Updated at 11:19 a.m. ET] Affiliate WTNH says children are being taken to a nearby firehouse.

WTNH News [email protected]
Photo from News 8 photographer of the firehouse scene where children were taken after shooting in #Newtown. twitpic.com/blxa6b
14 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
[Updated at 11:10 a.m. ET] Details are still really sketchy, but we now have a photo from the Newtown Bee of children being led from the scene.

[Updated at 11:03 a.m. ET] We're still getting details in of how many people may have been hurt.

Newtown is southwest of Hartford:

[Updated at 10:53 a.m. ET] Sandy Hook school is on lockdown and students are not being evacuated, a Newtown police spokesman tells us.

[Posted at 10:30 a.m. ET] Breaking news coming in - Connecticut State Police are responding to reports of a shooting at a Newtown elementary school in southwestern Connecticut, according to police spokesman Lt. Paul Vance.

We'll bring you more details as soon as we get them.

Our affiliates in the area are saying the school is the Sandy Hook Elementary School.

CT Now says injuries are being reported. http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/14/shooting-reported-at-connecticut-elementary-school/?hpt=hp_t1

This is very tragic.

Art Vandelay

14th December 2012, 20:51

RIP.

Looks like the imaginary party just got a new member.

soso17

14th December 2012, 21:06

RedHal

14th December 2012, 21:28

Society has gotten a lot more violent over the decades, but what do you expect when the global hegemon is the most vicious nation in the world.

Zostrianos

14th December 2012, 22:10

Just wait. Fox News will blame this tragedy on gays and liberals

The Intransigent Faction

14th December 2012, 22:12

1. What good does it do to broadcast this tragedy everywhere, constantly, except to scare parents and give press coverage to more killing? I am a firm believer that it does more harm than good to cover every detail of every tragedy. There are things that we don't all need to hear about.

2. This will cause a huge outcry for gun control, when the matter at hand is the lack of decent, free, accessible mental and preventative healthcare. Guns don't kill people, non-diagnosed and non-treated mentally ill people do.

3. The alienation of capitalism causes dehumanises others and removes people from any sense of belonging, of being part of a greater whole of humanity. Socialism helps prevent things like this.

3. If anyone can find significant examples of acts like this in the fSU or other formerly socialist countries, I will be INCREDIBLY surprised. The sense of community is often cited as the characteristic most lacking in formerly socialist countries.

--soso

1. We can't and shouldn't ignore it either, but I wholeheartedly agree.

2. Yes, but there's more to it than that. Maybe down the road one day we'll find a panacea, in fact I hope we will, but not all psychological issues (especially those like this one involving the killing of children) can be cured by socialism.

3. Seriously? You're using this tragedy to whitewash the crimes committed by Soviet sociopaths using prison labour? Regardless, as I said above, some psychological issues cannot be cured by socialism alone, and this is clear whether you're a Marxist-Leninist or not.

Vladimir Innit Lenin

14th December 2012, 22:13

1. What good does it do to broadcast this tragedy everywhere, constantly, except to scare parents and give press coverage to more killing? I am a firm believer that it does more harm than good to cover every detail of every tragedy. There are things that we don't all need to hear about.

2. This will cause a huge outcry for gun control, when the matter at hand is the lack of decent, free, accessible mental and preventative healthcare. Guns don't kill people, non-diagnosed and non-treated mentally ill people do.

3. The alienation of capitalism causes dehumanises others and removes people from any sense of belonging, of being part of a greater whole of humanity. Socialism helps prevent things like this.

3. If anyone can find significant examples of acts like this in the fSU or other formerly socialist countries, I will be INCREDIBLY surprised. The sense of community is often cited as the characteristic most lacking in formerly socialist countries.

--soso

Sorry, i'd just like to call you out on this piece of massive bullshit you've just posted.

So you'd have us live in a world where people are not informed about fucking mass murders that happen potentially on their doorstep? Would you suppress info on terrorist attacks, on (civil) wars etc.?

You can't seriously say that guns don't kill people. The people who purport these attacks may be seriously unhinged, but if they didn't have access to guns, this wouldn't happen. Yes, the odd nutter will be able to get hold of a gun if they really want to, but just look at the circumstantial evidence: how many more of these attacks do we have in gun-toting countries like the US, compared to countries like the UK where firearms aren't freely available? Both have a high level of alienation and, in some parts of the UK, the state of mental healthcare is abysmal.

Also, as regards the former Soviet Union, I believe that something like 683,000 people were shot in the late 1930s. But don't worry, only a few dozens of thousands were 'innocent' people, apparently. And those deaths don't count because it was done in the name of Socialism, right? :rolleyes::thumbdown:

zoot_allures

14th December 2012, 22:18

2. This will cause a huge outcry for gun control, when the matter at hand is the lack of decent, free, accessible mental and preventative healthcare. Guns don't kill people, non-diagnosed and non-treated mentally ill people do.
Re gun control, here's another news story from today...

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/asia/326213/man-stabs-22-children-at-china-primary-school

The Intransigent Faction

14th December 2012, 22:18

Sorry, i'd just like to call you out on this piece of massive bullshit you've just posted.

So you'd have us live in a world where people are not informed about fucking mass murders that happen potentially on their doorstep? Would you suppress info on terrorist attacks, on (civil) wars etc.?

I agree with most of what you said, but I don't think you were being fair on this point. It's not that we shouldn't have any coverage of this issue at all, but anyone who remembers Columbine or Virginia Tech should be suspicious of the media's record in covering these sorts of tragedies. People often do these sorts of things explicitly for infamy, which the media gives them by focusing on every little detail of what music the shooter listened to, what his favourite game was, or by playing videos he mailed to the news stations, etc. We should not be making these people into media celebrities.

zoot_allures

14th December 2012, 22:27

3. Seriously? You're using this tragedy to whitewash the crimes committed by Soviet sociopaths using prison labour? Regardless, as I said above, some psychological issues cannot be cured by socialism alone, and this is clear whether you're a Marxist-Leninist or not.

Also, as regards the former Soviet Union, I believe that something like 683,000 people were shot in the late 1930s. But don't worry, only a few dozens of thousands were 'innocent' people, apparently. And those deaths don't count because it was done in the name of Socialism, right? :rolleyes::thumbdown:
I don't get what the problem is with his statements. Spree killings like this are a very particular type of crime. Just because somebody's saying that there were less (or no) spree killings of this kind in the Soviet Union, and suggesting a reason why, doesn't mean they're necessarily ignoring other kinds of killing. Those other killings are (in this context) a different topic.

Vladimir Innit Lenin

14th December 2012, 22:31

I agree with most of what you said, but I don't think you were being fair on this point. It's not that we shouldn't have any coverage of this issue at all, but anyone who remembers Columbine or Virginia Tech should be suspicious of the media's record in covering these sorts of tragedies. People often do these sorts of things explicitly for infamy, which the media gives them by focusing on every little detail of what music the shooter listened to, what his favourite game was, or by playing videos he mailed to the news stations, etc. We should not be making these people into media celebrities.

I'm not sure what the coverage is like the other side of the pond, but I think it is important to have a fair amount of coverage of these events, because they are tragedies and (i'm sure i'll make a few people mad here), they continually show the idiocy of the anti-gun control lobby.

The Intransigent Faction

14th December 2012, 22:42

Re gun control, here's another news story from today...

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/asia/326213/man-stabs-22-children-at-china-primary-school

Look, I'm not really a huge fan of gun control. I think there are legitimate arguments against strict gun laws, but let's drop the weak arguments, shall we?

First of all, try cutting steak with a gun and tell me how that works out. Knives have other uses.

Second, according to a Globe & Mail report on this incident:

“Twenty-two elementary school students were stabbed, so was an adult villager” but none of the victims died, the official, who declined to give his name, told AFP.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/man-stabs-22-children-in-china/article6353552/?cmpid=rss1

NewLeft

14th December 2012, 22:45

Ryan Lanza is doing some serious damage control right now..

GoddessCleoLover

14th December 2012, 22:47

3. If anyone can find significant examples of acts like this in the fSU or other formerly socialist countries, I will be INCREDIBLY surprised. The sense of community is often cited as the characteristic most lacking in formerly socialist countries.

--soso
Does the name Andrei Chikatilo ring a bell? Seem to recall that he was even a Party member.

Le Socialiste

14th December 2012, 22:50

My issue with this tragedy is how it will - and has been - handled by the media, politicians, and other authority figures. It's definitely manipulative. In a way soso is right - it does highlight the fact that many people don't have access to the proper mental and preventable healthcare that could, at the very least, take them off the streets where they could harm themselves and others. This aspect will not likely be touched on; instead, focus has already turned to whether people are "born killers" or not, sidestepping the real root cause(s) of this unfortunate tragedy. As for gun control, I don't know what to say. Clearly what is at issue is the underlying effects our society (which is deeply alienating) has on the mental state(s) of the individual, not the type of music s/he listens to or the clothes they wear.

The Intransigent Faction

14th December 2012, 22:50

I'm not sure what the coverage is like the other side of the pond, but I think it is important to have a fair amount of coverage of these events, because they are tragedies and (i'm sure i'll make a few people mad here), they continually show the idiocy of the anti-gun control lobby.

Ideally, but no. What they will do is give the shooters the infamy they were seeking, and inspire copycats. From Charles Manson to Eric Harris & Dylan Klebold, coverage has turned such people into media celebrities about whom every juicy detail of the sort I mentioned above is soaked up.

Coverage that focuses on the victims is one thing. We absolutely should have that. But there's just too much temptation to get ratings by focusing on disturbed people who carry out these massacres.

zoot_allures

14th December 2012, 22:51

Look, I'm not really a huge fan of gun control. I think there are legitimate arguments against strict gun laws, but let's drop the weak arguments, shall we?

First of all, try cutting steak with a gun and tell me how that works out. Knives have other uses.

Second, according to a Globe & Mail report on this incident:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/man-stabs-22-children-in-china/article6353552/?cmpid=rss1
What makes you think it was an "argument"? It was simply a story that I thought was interesting and relevant. I never made any arguments whatsoever - I never even stated my view on the matter, so what would I be providing arguments for?

That story in the Globe & Mail link is word-for-word exactly the same as the one I posted.

The Intransigent Faction

14th December 2012, 22:55

What makes you think it was an "argument"? It was simply a story that I thought was interesting and relevant. I never made any arguments whatsoever - I never even stated my view on the matter, so what would I be providing arguments for?

That story in the Globe & Mail link is word-for-word exactly the same as the one I posted.

So it was.
What made me "think" it was an argument was that it is a common argument against gun control that "people will just use knives instead", and you were implying the same thing. I'll take your word for it that you weren't trying to imply this, but it's an important distinction between the two situations that should be emphasized, either way.

zoot_allures

14th December 2012, 22:58

So it was.
What made me "think" it was an argument was that it is a common argument against gun control that "people will just use knives instead", and you were implying the same thing. I'll take your word for it that you weren't trying to imply this, but it's an important distinction between the two situations that should be emphasized, either way.
No, I wasn't trying to imply that. In fact, my feeling is that this story would be better used in a case for gun control, precisely because there were no deaths.

Hermes

14th December 2012, 23:45

Ideally, but no. What they will do is give the shooters the infamy they were seeking, and inspire copycats. From Charles Manson to Eric Harris & Dylan Klebold, coverage has turned such people into media celebrities about whom every juicy detail of the sort I mentioned above is soaked up.

Coverage that focuses on the victims is one thing. We absolutely should have that. But there's just too much temptation to get ratings by focusing on disturbed people who carry out these massacres.

They're dead, though, so they can't really enjoy their 'infamy'. Further, you seem to be suggesting that there shouldn't be any infamy surrounding him? Maybe I'm misreading you.

There will always be copycats, though. i.e. If you somehow managed to cover up every single report of a mass murder, the people who would imitate them would just go and do it themselves, regardless of example (I have no degree in criminal psychology, so I may be wrong. This is just what it seems to me).

To the last thing, yes, but they are people. I'm not sure how you would suggest not reporting anything about the killer?

The Intransigent Faction

15th December 2012, 01:54

They're dead, though, so they can't really enjoy their 'infamy'. Further, you seem to be suggesting that there shouldn't be any infamy surrounding him? Maybe I'm misreading you.

That's beside the point because it was their goal, whether they would "live to enjoy it" or not. Yes, you're definitely distorting what I'm saying. Stop that! But no, I don't think they're should be "infamy", because that's exactly what this sort of person wants. Remember the victims, don't obsess over the killer's lifestyle.

There will always be copycats, though. i.e. If you somehow managed to cover up every single report of a mass murder, the people who would imitate them would just go and do it themselves, regardless of example (I have no degree in criminal psychology, so I may be wrong. This is just what it seems to me).

Beside the point. If you read what I said, I never suggested a complete cover-up. But for the record, uh, that may be true, but if they do it "regardless of example", that's not a copycat. It's kinda the exact opposite of a copycat crime.

To the last thing, yes, but they are people. I'm not sure how you would suggest not reporting anything about the killer?

Easily. Focus on the victims, not every little detail about the killer. That's all I'm saying, but apparently you have some problem with that.

Garret

15th December 2012, 02:04

I have to say, the way I've seen the American media cover this story is atrocious, why are they interviewing kids who's minds cannot process what just happened? To catch that glorious tear that will profit their footage? Disgusting.

Let's Get Free

15th December 2012, 02:06

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/533517_504774102896866_1280177452_n.jpg

The Intransigent Faction

15th December 2012, 02:14

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/533517_504774102896866_1280177452_n.jpg

I was wondering when this would make its way here! Somebody posted this on Facebook and someone expressed a similar view on another forum I frequent (for an MMO of all things), and it turned into a shitstorm of flaming from people ranging from "I agree, but too soon." to "OMG how could you exploit a tragedy like this to attack the president?!" etc.

I'm torn over this. I can believe that Obama was genuinely devastated by this tragedy, but it's also hypocritical of him. It's just another case of 'American deaths are a tragedy, foreign deaths are just a statistic".

GoddessCleoLover

15th December 2012, 02:24

I presume the news stations have already started politicizing the hell out of this

The main "politicization" that I see is the Obama administration's decision not to raise the so-called gun control issue. I am no great advocate for gun control but it is interesting that Obama is scared shitless to cross swords with the NRA. Probably smart politics though. Bill Clinton's attempted politicization of the Columbine might have cost Al Gore the presidency.

Os Cangaceiros

15th December 2012, 02:29

Most Americans don't like the idea of "gun control" anyway. I think the influence of the NRA is kind of overstated compared to the generalized sentiment among the majority of people in the USA regarding firearms.

This incident probably won't change that, either...

Comrade Samuel

15th December 2012, 02:33

I presume the news stations have already started politicizing the hell out of this. Who/what do you think the two sides will blame?

It's worth noting the amount of outrage people are feeling towards the media after this one. Honestly I've never seen people so quick to criticize the news stations immidiately after something this terrible happens because they don't show a shread of empathy for the victims families.

ed miliband

15th December 2012, 02:41

Let's Get Free

15th December 2012, 02:43

This world is such a fucked up place.

The Intransigent Faction

15th December 2012, 02:44

GoddessCleoLover

15th December 2012, 02:47

i really do despise the way within minutes of this sort of story breaking people run around shouting about gun control. it's really quite shameless using stories like this to moralise imo.

Perhaps, but my perspective what is striking is the ability of the NRA to quash any discussion of the issue, even with respect to the thirty-clip automatic pistol used in the Arizona shootings. The NRA exercises a powerful hegemony on the weapons issue in the USA based upon their fundraising ability and their zealous focus.

ed miliband

15th December 2012, 02:50

Perhaps, but my perspective what is striking is the ability of the NRA to quash any discussion of the issue, even with respect to the thirty-clip automatic pistol used in the Arizona shootings. The NRA exercises a powerful hegemony on the weapons issue in the USA based upon their fundraising ability and their zealous focus.

that isn't to say that the issue should be discussed; rather, most of the time their doesn't seem to be any "discussion" at all, but shallow slogans and empty rhetoric.

i think the increase in mass shootings since the 1980s says something far more concerning about modern society than the legality of guns.

Ostrinski

15th December 2012, 02:53

TheOther

15th December 2012, 02:57

MS91knuzoOA
The music video about a young student who killed all his classroom mates

I might think that these mass-murders are really none other than revenge-related crimes. A revenge against America, against narcissist americans. This country is full of NARCISSIST PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO CONSIDERATION FOR OTHERS, and who treat others around them in work and in school like trash. Americans suffer from not being cool loving nice people, if you treat dogs and animals in a mean, bad way that dog will get violent against you. So i really think that the main cause of so many mass-shooting in USA is the rejection and lack of love felt by many people in America. Of course the millions of Americans who feel rejected most of the time never resort to these tragic solutions. But I think that sensible very emotional people who feel rejected and hated in "The home of the free" and "The envy of the world" like Obama-bomber said in his last election victory speech said resort to these crazy tragic measures when they can't take it no more. Most people in America are not piece of cake, the country suffer from too many assholes.

There's been a mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut
We're told there are 18-20 children who have been killed, with a death toll close to 30
Law enforcement tells CNN suspect is named Ryan Lanza
Below are the latest updates as they come to us or you can read our story of the Connecticut school shooting
[Updated at 3:16 p.m. ET] From the president: "I offer Gov. Malloy my condolences on behalf of the nation."

The president appears to be emotional, he's wiping his left eye.

[Updated at 3:14 p.m. ET] The president will talk soon. You can watch him on our live stream here.

[Updated at 3:12 p.m. ET] President Obama has ordered flags to be lowered to half-staff as a mark of respect for the victims “of the senseless acts of violence perpetrated on December 14, 2012, in Newtown, Connecticut,” according to a release from the White House.

[Updated at 3:09 p.m. ET] The suspect's mother was shot and killed at the school, according to source close to the investigation. She was a teacher there.

And we now know that Ryan Lanza, the suspected gunman, was 24.

[Updated at 3:01 p.m. ET] The principal and guidance counselor at Sandy Hook Elementary School were both killed during the shooting, according to a witness that spoke to CNN.

[Updated at 2:52 p.m. ET] We have just learned via a tweet from House Speaker John Boehner that flags at the U.S. Capitol will be lowered.

Speaker John Boehner
✔
@SpeakerBoehner
Have ordered flags over the @uscapitol to be lowered in tribute to families & victims at #SandyHook. #prayfornewtown
14 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
[Updated at 2:47 p.m. ET] President Obama will make a statement on the tragedy at 3:15 p.m. ET. We'll have that live on CNN TV and right here.

[Updated at 2:45 p.m. ET] Various locations are being used as staging areas around Newtown. This is outside the Newtown Methodist Church near the school where a woman is hugging a child.

[Updated at 2:39 p.m. ET] Federal law enforcement officials have told CNN's John King that the shooting happened quickly and happened in a concentrated area.

[Updated at 2:32 p.m. ET] Connecticut Gov. Malloy will be in Newtown and talk about the tragedy today at 3:30 p.m. ET.

[Updated at 2:20 p.m. ET] We are now hearing from CNN's Mary Snow, who is reporting from outside the suspect's home, that dozens of law enforcement officials are on the scene.

Neighbors are "shaken," Snow said.

[Updated at 2:11 p.m. ET] CNN's Susan Candiotti has just reported that a law enforcement official tells her the suspect is named Ryan Lanza and he is in his 20s.

[Updated at 2:09 p.m. ET] We're hearing even more devastating news out of Newtown, Connecticut. CNN's Susan Candiotti has been told that 18 to 20 of the dead are children.

[Updated at 2:07 p.m. ET] CNN's Jessica Yellin is reporting that we're likely to hear from President Obama today on the school shooting, according to a senior administration official. We don't know when our where we may hear from President Obama.

[Updated at 2:04 p.m. ET] Lisa Procaccini, the parent of an 8-year-old at the school, tells CNN that her daughter said school officials kept her calm during the shooting and told her the loud noise was hammering going on.

Eventually police came in and let her daughter and her teacher leave the school building.

"I'm even kind of numb about what's going on," she told CNN's Wolf Blitzer. "I'm in a state of shock. I don't know how Im going to handle having [my daughter] know ... about the whole situation."

[Updated at 1:57 p.m. ET] The death toll is closer to 30 than 20, a federal law enforcement source in Washington told CNN's John King. Most of those killed are children, the source said.

The source also said the suspected gunman, who is dead, had a connection to the school. He would not elaborate on that connection. The source is in touch with authorities on the scene.

[Updated at 1:53 p.m. ET] Congresswoman-elect Elizabeth Esty, who was recently won a seat representing a district that includes Newtown, Connecticut, just released the following statement on the tragedy:

As a mother, I can only begin to imagine what the students, parents, teachers and staff of Sandy Hook Elementary must be experiencing. My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone impacted by this horrific tragedy. While details are still emerging, I hope for the safety and well being of the children, teachers and staff at Sandy Hook Elementary and for the Newtown community.

[Updated at 1:51 p.m. ET] We have just learned that the suspected shooter is 20-years-old, a law enforcement source with knowledge of the investigation tells CNN’s Susan Candiotti.

[Updated at 1:47 p.m. ET] A few more details from the White House press briefing earlier. White House spokesman Jay Carney said while today is not the day to debate gun policy, an assault weapons ban "does remain a commitment" of President Obama.

[Updated at 1:45 p.m. ET] We are now learning that a male is being questioned by investigators, but he is not being called a suspect, CNN's Susan Candiotti reports.

[Updated at 1:42 p.m. ET] Connecticut State Police Lt. Paul Vance said the shooter is dead inside the school.

Libor [email protected]
State police PIO Lt. Paul Vance: "The shooter is deceased inside the building."
14 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
Vance said there are a number of fatalities that includes both children and adults. He did not add more details about how many people were killed during the school shooting.

[Updated at 1:41 p.m. ET] Police have now begun their briefing on the shooting.

[Updated at 1:32 p.m. ET] We're hearing more from the scene of the massacre through tweets and interviews.

Hena [email protected]
9 yr old tells me police told children to close their eyes as they were escorted down the school hallways. #Newtown #sandyhook
14 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
Rep. John [email protected]
According to my sister, teachers @ Sandy Hook school handled situation incredibly well.
14 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
[Updated at 1:23 p.m. ET] President Obama has spoken to FBI Director Robert Mueller and Connecticut Gov. Dan Malloy to get the latest information and express his condolences, White House spokesman Jay Carney said.

[Updated at 1:21 p.m. ET] We're now hearing that it may be a while for the briefing from the police.

[Updated at 1:17 p.m. ET] This was the scene from the air earlier, taken by News 12 Connecticut, with emergency vehicles in the school parking lot.

[Updated at 1:09 p.m. ET] The police are set to give a news conference soon where we'll learn more. We'll bring that to you as soon as it starts.

[Updated at 1:07 p.m. ET] Here's the chilling account told to CNN's Meredith Artley of what happened at the school.

[Updated at 12:59 p.m. ET] Many people are talking again about gun control. But White House spokesman Jay Carney isn't joining in for now.

"I think it's important on a day like today to view this as I know the president, as a father does and I as a father and others who are parents certainly do, which is to feel enormous sympathy for families that are affected and to do everything we can to support state and local law enforcement and support those who are enduring what appears to be a very tragic event. There is, I'm sure, will be, rather, a day for discussion of the usual Washington policy debates but I don't think today is that day.

[Updated at 12:57 p.m. ET] From the News Times reporter at the school:

Libor [email protected]
9 y/o girl says that "police with big guns" led her classmates out of the building. Asked them to cover their eyes.
14 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
[Updated at 12:48 p.m. ET] "Close to 20” people have been killed, including at least 10 children, a law enforcement source with knowledge of the investigation says.

[Updated at 12:47 p.m. ET] President Barack Obama has been informed of the school shooting in Connecticut and will receive regular updates throughout the day, the White House said on Friday.

[Updated at 12:27 p.m. ET] The mom who spoke to CNN's Meredith Artley said she heard "at least 100 rounds" being fired.

The shooting began about 9:35 a.m., the parent said. There was a "pop pop pop" in the hall outside the room. Three people went out of the room into the hall where the sounds had come from. "Only one person came back," we were told.

The witness told Artley that she then called 911. She said she never saw the shooter but she later was escorted outside the room past two bodies lying in blood.

[Updated at 12:20 p.m. ET] A third-grader describes the shooting to WTNH:

[Updated at 12:16 p.m. ET] Two adults were killed, according to a parent who was at the school during the incident, and who talked to our colleague Meredith Artley.

[Updated at 12:12 p.m. ET] We just got this from U.S. Senator-elect Chris Murphy:

"I am shocked and saddened by the horrific news from Sandy Hook Elementary School this morning, and I pray that kids, teachers, staff, and families reach safety as quickly as possible. While we don't have much information right now, our thoughts are with the victims and their loved ones."

[Updated at 12:05 p.m. ET] The shooter's body is in a classroom, a source with knowledge of the investigation tells CNN’s Susan Candiotti.

[Updated at 12:02 p.m. ET] Multiple local media are reporting there are fatalities. We're checking.

[Updated at noon ET] News Times reporter Libor Jany reports that all Newtown schools are on lockdown.

Libor [email protected]
Newtown First Selectman Pat Llodra says that all Newtown schools are on lockdown. pic.twitter.com/GCDbYT3C

14 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
[Updated at 11:58 a.m. ET] Danbury Hospital confirms it's treating some victims. It says this on its Facebook page:

To date, three patients have been transported to Danbury Hospital from the scene. Out of abundance of caution and not because of any direct threat Danbury Hospital is under lockdown. This allows us simply to focus on the important work at hand.

[Updated at 11:54 a.m. ET] Connecticut House Rep. John Frey has nieces and a nephew at the school and is tweeting updates.

Rep. John [email protected]
Sister is w/my nieces & nephew at Sandy Hook Firehouse. Awful situation
14 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
[Updated at 11:47 a.m. ET] The dad of a student at the school told CNN affiliate WTNH there were about 600 pupils in the building at the time of the shooting.

[Updated at 11:45 a.m. ET] At least three people were wounded and are in "very serious" condition at a hospital in Danbury, Connecticut, that town's mayor, Mark Boughton told CNN. He couldn't say whether the victims were children.

[Updated at 11:44 a.m. ET] Andrew Doba, Director of Communications with Connecticut Governor Malloy's office, says they are coordinating with local authorities and state police. They continue to monitor developments in Newtown. The governor is in Connecticut today.

[Updated at 11:40 a.m. ET] We're getting live pictures from the scene from CNN affiliates.

[Updated at 11:34 a.m. ET] The shooter is dead, a source with knowledge of the investigation, tells CNN’s Susan Candiotti.

Police have recovered two weapons from him, the source added.

It's not known whether police killed the alleged shooter or he took his own life. The source says one weapon recovered is a Glock and the other is a Sig Sauer.

[Updated at 11:27 a.m. ET] The Hartford Courant, citing police, said an unspecified number of people had been shot. The nature of their injuries was unclear, the newspaper said. But it cited police in saying one person had "numerous gunshot wounds."

[Updated at 11:19 a.m. ET] Affiliate WTNH says children are being taken to a nearby firehouse.

WTNH News [email protected]
Photo from News 8 photographer of the firehouse scene where children were taken after shooting in #Newtown. twitpic.com/blxa6b
14 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
[Updated at 11:10 a.m. ET] Details are still really sketchy, but we now have a photo from the Newtown Bee of children being led from the scene.

[Updated at 11:03 a.m. ET] We're still getting details in of how many people may have been hurt.

Newtown is southwest of Hartford:

[Updated at 10:53 a.m. ET] Sandy Hook school is on lockdown and students are not being evacuated, a Newtown police spokesman tells us.

[Posted at 10:30 a.m. ET] Breaking news coming in - Connecticut State Police are responding to reports of a shooting at a Newtown elementary school in southwestern Connecticut, according to police spokesman Lt. Paul Vance.

We'll bring you more details as soon as we get them.

Our affiliates in the area are saying the school is the Sandy Hook Elementary School.

CT Now says injuries are being reported. http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/14/shooting-reported-at-connecticut-elementary-school/?hpt=hp_t1

This is very tragic.

Lynx

15th December 2012, 03:18

Crocodile tears (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocodile_tears)

the last donut of the night

15th December 2012, 03:37

WASHINGTON—Following the fatal shooting this morning at a Connecticut elementary school that left at least 27 dead, including 20 small children, sources across the nation shook their heads, stifled a sob in their voices, and reported fuck everything. Just fuck it all to hell.

All of it, sources added.

“I’m sorry, but fuck it, I can’t handle this—I just can’t handle it anymore,” said Deborah McEllis, who added that “no, no, no, no, no, this isn’t happening, this can’t be real.” “Seriously, what the hell is this? What’s even going on anymore? Why do things like this keep happening?”

Continued McEllis, before covering her face with her hands, “Why?”

Despairing sources confirmed that the gunman, armed with a semiautomatic assault rifle—a fucking combat rifle, Jesus—walked into a classroom full of goddamned children where his mother was a teacher and, good God, if this is what the world is becoming, then how about we just pack it in and fucking give up, because this is no way to live.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/fuck-everything-nation-reports,30743/

fuck the moralism about all of this. american society is rotting in its core and eventually the maggots come crawling out to the surface.

this is, sadly, no surprise. what has shocked everyone is the absurdity of it all -- 20 children killed, for no apparent reason. worst of all is that for most of the giant slum that is our planet, this is much more common. death is far too common, suffering is omnipresent. and yet this still shocks us, because it's a hint of the barbarity that envelops most of the world hitting a nice little suburb in connectitut.

so what happens now? most likely, disgusting moralism. from america's deranged right wing you'll get the traditional fear-mongering, the parochial fear of the outsider, possibly numerous theories linking mass murderers to supposedly "liberal" culture or whatever. from america's bleeding heart liberals, you'll get cries to regulate the NRA, weak appeals to humanity, and in the end, a very shallow optimism of the eventual relegation of this event to the back of the media feeding trough. it doesn't matter. it just keeps going deeper and deeper into the pool of festering alienation and shit that holds up american society. these murderers may be "freaks" but more importantly they're just symptoms of the violence all around us. as long as american society holds itself up through the violent domination of the world, racism, patriarchy, rampant consumerism and a profound fear of the outsider (itself the deepest manifestation of a hatred of itself), we'll keep seeing news of this. and the deeper the world goes to shit, the uglier wars get, the more the climate changes, the more black kids get murdered by the police, the more "senseless" shootings you'll get.

Skyhilist

15th December 2012, 03:40

Interesting fact: psychopaths actually have identifiable brain signatures, which make it so they can easily be recognized and diagnosed before anything bad happens. Too bad that's not actually being pursued...

Skyhilist

15th December 2012, 03:41

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/533517_504774102896866_1280177452_n.jpg

I think he was legitimately crying... he's just a hypocrite.

RaÃºl Duke

15th December 2012, 03:45

I presume the news stations have already started politicizing the hell out of this. Who/what do you think the two sides will blame?

They've blamed: Easy access to assault rifles, or guns in general, in the US, video games (Mass Effect), Mountain Dew, and "getting god out of schools" so far...

Can't decide if that post was droll, troll or both.

I smell troll...
well, not exactly, but maybe a sockpuppet of a restricted/banned member perhaps...?

Os Cangaceiros

15th December 2012, 04:13

haha, Mountain Dew?!

Hermes

15th December 2012, 04:16

Sorry for replying so late, sidetracked.

That's beside the point because it was their goal, whether they would "live to enjoy it" or not. Yes, you're definitely distorting what I'm saying. Stop that! But no, I don't think they're should be "infamy", because that's exactly what this sort of person wants. Remember the victims, don't obsess over the killer's lifestyle.

It doesn't matter what he wants, though. Such an act should be infamous, as should the people who do it. I don't really view 'infamy' in the same romantic sense that you appear to (if I'm reading you correctly, which I already appeared to have failed at twice!).

Beside the point. If you read what I said, I never suggested a complete cover-up. But for the record, uh, that may be true, but if they do it "regardless of example", that's not a copycat. It's kinda the exact opposite of a copycat crime.

My mistake, I was kind of vague. My point was that regardless of precedence, those who want to do this will exist. Me saying if it was covered up completely was to create the situation where no copycat could exist, yet killers wouldn't diminish, I wasn't trying to represent that as your opinion. Apologies.

Easily. Focus on the victims, not every little detail about the killer. That's all I'm saying, but apparently you have some problem with that.

Ayah, but I think it is important to focus on the killer. Not so that he lives in infamy, etc, but because there's a reason that he was a killer. We shouldn't just throw up our hands, say that this is inevitable, and wait until the next attack, is what I'm saying.

Sorry again if I misrepresented what you're saying.

Skyhilist

15th December 2012, 04:33

They've blamed: Easy access to assault rifles, or guns in general, in the US, video games (Mass Effect), Mountain Dew, and "getting god out of schools" so far...

Huckabee's batshit crazy theory about why this shooting has happened has got to me the most ridiculous so far. I would call it laughable, but a situation like this can never be laughable.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/mike-huckabee-school-shooting_n_2303792.html

Sasha

15th December 2012, 07:26

http://www.theonion.com/articles/fuck-everything-nation-reports,30743/

fuck the moralism about all of this. american society is rotting in its core and eventually the maggots come crawling out to the surface.

this is, sadly, no surprise. what has shocked everyone is the absurdity of it all -- 20 children killed, for no apparent reason. worst of all is that for most of the giant slum that is our planet, this is much more common. death is far too common, suffering is omnipresent. and yet this still shocks us, because it's a hint of the barbarity that envelops most of the world hitting a nice little suburb in connectitut.

so what happens now? most likely, disgusting moralism. from america's deranged right wing you'll get the traditional fear-mongering, the parochial fear of the outsider, possibly numerous theories linking mass murderers to supposedly "liberal" culture or whatever. from america's bleeding heart liberals, you'll get cries to regulate the NRA, weak appeals to humanity, and in the end, a very shallow optimism of the eventual relegation of this event to the back of the media feeding trough. it doesn't matter. it just keeps going deeper and deeper into the pool of festering alienation and shit that holds up american society. these murderers may be "freaks" but more importantly they're just symptoms of the violence all around us. as long as american society holds itself up through the violent domination of the world, racism, patriarchy, rampant consumerism and a profound fear of the outsider (itself the deepest manifestation of a hatred of itself), we'll keep seeing news of this. and the deeper the world goes to shit, the uglier wars get, the more the climate changes, the more black kids get murdered by the police, the more "senseless" shootings you'll get.

http://libcom.org/library/theory-bloom

The Intransigent Faction

15th December 2012, 07:37

Sorry for replying so late, sidetracked.

Meh, no rush or anything.

It doesn't matter what he wants, though.

Of course it does. As Marilyn Manson said of the Columbine shooters, "Those kids ended up on the cover of Time Magazine. They got exactly what they wanted." And even Cho Seung-Hui at Virginia Tech, years later, referred to them as "martyrs". That's just one example relating to school shootings.

Such an act should be infamous, as should the people who do it. I don't really view 'infamy' in the same romantic sense that you appear to (if I'm reading you correctly, which I already appeared to have failed at twice!).

It's not that I view it as good, it's that, as I've said repeatedly, it's a motive for a lot of such crimes.

My mistake, I was kind of vague. My point was that regardless of precedence, those who want to do this will exist. Me saying if it was covered up completely was to create the situation where no copycat could exist, yet killers wouldn't diminish, I wasn't trying to represent that as your opinion. Apologies.

Fair enough. Of course they'll still exist, but that doesn't mean media glamorization (and yes, that is what infamy is to such people when they become infamous for such acts, as some of them outright say) of them is a good thing.

Ayah, but I think it is important to focus on the killer. Not so that he lives in infamy, etc, but because there's a reason that he was a killer. We shouldn't just throw up our hands, say that this is inevitable, and wait until the next attack, is what I'm saying.

Sorry again if I misrepresented what you're saying.

Of course we shouldn't ignore why, but as a previous poster noted in crimes of this specific nature there are medical (psychological) factors as well as external ones. Having the medical community to a "psychological autopsy" (can't remember the term for this) on someone like this is one thing---that's important. Media speculation leading to profitable moral panics and an obsession with killers that only leads us further from understanding the motivations, not closer. Once the focus is on the killer, the victims (or many of them) are effectively nameless faces in the national psyche.

Yugo45

15th December 2012, 07:44

Just wait. Fox News will blame this tragedy on gays and liberals

Close enough. They blamed it on Facebook, TV shows and video games because the shooter's brother had a facebook account and liked a video game page there.

Aussie Trotskyist

15th December 2012, 08:27

They've blamed: Easy access to assault rifles, or guns in general, in the US, video games (Mass Effect), Mountain Dew, and "getting god out of schools" so far...

Hmm, forgive me if this is off topic, or unwelcome, but I'm just stating my view on gun laws, that have developed a little over this whole incident.

Australia has some relatively tough gun laws, but that has done nothing to lower gun deaths since they were implemented, so perhaps something different is in order.

As a recreational shooter, I think that perhaps for one to own a gun, both regular psychiatric assessment, and some form of 'training' are in order. Such training mostly includes using a firearm (possibly the type the person wants to by) at a licensed range, or having some other experience with firearms over a period of time. Hopefully, this will teach people to respect a firearm.

Of course, I'm no expert on this issue. Opinions please?

Vladimir Innit Lenin

15th December 2012, 10:23

i really do despise the way within minutes of this sort of story breaking people run around shouting about gun control. it's really quite shameless using stories like this to moralise imo.

e: not that that's happened here, talking about facebook; really don't get why some of my fellow brits feel so passionately about guns in america.

It's not moralising mate, it's just an argument. And i'm not gonna be rude because I think you're a good guy, as you know, and get on with you, but this is a ridiculous bit of slander.

It seems there's some prejudice amongst the left against people who want gun control, as it is supposedly anti-worker in that workers then don't have arms to form a militia. This is kinda a moot point anyway as, in most developed countries (and, as the Arab revolutions show, in many less developed countries, too) the army is so strong that you could have a million workers running round waving their pistols in the air, but if the bourgeiosie really wanted, the army could put them down in an instant. And, conversely, if the working class members of the army defected to the side of the proletariat in a hypothetical future revolutionary situation, the bourgeoisie would HAVE to step aside. And, as a third point, there have been a few cases in history where the bourgeoisie has stepped aside, without TOO much fighting, when the working members of society have so overwhelmingly decided that they want them gone (East Germany springs to mind).

This is a huge tragedy, but I don't see why you're attacking those of us who 'moralise' about gun control? It's not just some hippy liberal issue. I don't really have a particular moral issue about guns.

My issue is that, in America anyway, I was under the impression that guns were supposed to be held in order to stop tyrannical governments taking over the US. Well, I saw a good graphic earlier: how many tyrannical governments (and we can agree there have been many!) have been overthrown in the US? Zero! And how many innocent children have been killed from these guns? Fucking loads!

This idea that distributing guns among the population can have anything other than a very negative effect on society is a fucking myth, and the reason it's important to keep highlighting this is so that we don't have this bullshit coming across to the UK. London's fucking bad enough without a load of shithead gangs running around with a gat!

TheGodlessUtopian

16th December 2012, 00:01

Some more information on the shooter...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/15/adam-lanza-newtown-school-shooter-honors-student_n_2306736.html

Workers-Control-Over-Prod

16th December 2012, 00:18

Let's Get Free

16th December 2012, 00:22

"We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system ,the way of life, the philosophy which produced the murderers."-Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for Martyred Children (1963).

Sasha

16th December 2012, 13:20

trashed all the offtopic shit; last and general warning, keep it on topic

Sasha

16th December 2012, 13:22

Futility Personified

16th December 2012, 15:12

I hate that RevLeft users of all people are posting the Corporate propaganda garbage. It's quite clear why individuals go on shooting sprees. Obviously, they lack fundamental human values of compassion and concern for their fellow human beings. Shootings will stop when humans are socialized, brought up by the collective, integrated into and given a responsible place in human society.

Sorry, but it isn't precisely clear cut what triggers psychotic episodes. As leftists, we all feel that capitalism plays a part, but that is the key point. Plays a part. With anything like this, it is always a combination of different factors that build up into this. And to be a pedant, all humans are "socialized", that's how we learn to interact.

To carry on with the idea that this is good evidence for gun control, in the UK shootings are very few and very far between. Not many shooters survive these rampages, killing themselves to avert the dire consequences their survival would have. It's not unreasonable to suggest that when people go on these rampages, they are right at the end of their tether, and are going to be prone to rash and quite frankly mental decisions. If firearms are unavailable, the quickest and most efficient way of them taking out their anger on the world is gone.

GoddessCleoLover

16th December 2012, 15:50

back on topic; found this harrowing story by a mother living with a son with violent psychiatric episodes crying out for the help they dont get in US. Dont let the gun regulation debate (no matter how important) push the mental health debate of the agenda.

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/12/15/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother

Psycho is absolutely right about this. I have worked in the field and public mental health funding is too low to address even minimal needs. The term of art in the field is "gaps in services" which is a bullshit euphemism since the "gaps" overwhelm the "non-gaps" eg. needs that are actually funded. The system is also quite totalitarian about minimizing so-called gaps in services. If I were still working in the field I would be afraid to post on the subject since grant funding is denied to those who refuse to go along and get along with the powers that be.

Geiseric

16th December 2012, 18:31

IMO there should be basic psychological tests before somebody should be able to buy a gun, to make sure he/she isn't a violent, sociopathic, white, conspiracy theory nutcase, like the oklahoma city bombers.

However the guns were stolen from the shooters mom who he also killed (RIP). This guy went through his whole life with nobody worried about problems that might of been cooking inside his noggin. I'm with Psycho on this, this should be used as a call for social healthcare, and overall a change in the media itself, which doesn't want to blame ITSELF for this fucked up generation of gun nut youth.

hetz

16th December 2012, 18:34

Lynx

16th December 2012, 20:13

Rugged Collectivist

16th December 2012, 21:04

Os Cangaceiros

16th December 2012, 22:41

Mass shootings really are kind of irrelevant compared to the vastly more numerous one-on-one homicides involving firearms in the USA. Mass shootings just provide more of a spectacle.

RedHal

16th December 2012, 22:42

This kid took out the wrong parent, if he went after the GE account dad, he could've done the world a favor and taken out the whole accounting department rather than kindergarteners

ed miliband

16th December 2012, 23:04

this came up on my facebook feed and frankly i find it, well, absolutely bizarre:

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/dec/15/our-moloch/

yes, of course, the problem is american's worship guns.

Os Cangaceiros

16th December 2012, 23:47

White males are almost always the perpetrators of these crimes, from what I have read. It is arguable whether they are mentally ill, or whether it even matters if they are. Medical science cannot always cure these disorders; those afflicted often do not want to be helped; and there are plenty of mass killers whose motives were political.

Senseless violence carried out by individuals has occurred for a long time, and there are no solutions.

Of the 62 mass murders since 1982, 44 of the perpetrators were white males. A little over 2/3rds. Considering the demographics of the country since 1982, I actually don't think that's hugely disproportianate.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

Also, what mass shootings have been carried out for explicitely political purposes (in the USA)? The only one I can think of off the top of my head was the massacre at Ft Hood.

Sasha

16th December 2012, 23:53

The only one I can think of off the top of my head was the massacre at Ft Hood.

i actually think that the ft hood shooting was way more the actions of a person with psychiatric problems than say columbine.
nihilist terror can be political too

skitty

17th December 2012, 00:52

I think he was legitimately crying... he's just a hypocrite.

I agree: and wish someone would stand up and say 'this is how the invisible people around the world feel after a Predator drone engages a group of their loved-ones'.

Geiseric

17th December 2012, 04:12

I mean basic tests, as in nobody who has a history of wanton violence should be able to own a gun. I have yet to see a mass shooter who is not white, psychopathic, and middle to upper class petit bourgeoisie. It's a pattern that keeps repeating itself. The state can only enforce that by making all purchases from this point forward require a doctor approved note. If the doctor is wrong, he should be in trouble.

Another idea to stop illegal gun sales is to make a law saying you have to re register legal firearms (the same ones can stay legal this way) every 10 years, making sure they aren't sold illegally. This would just make it so your ID corresponds with how many guns you own, making it so you can't sell it to people who would use them. This debate is rediculous though since the american population is fed so much violence and brain washing through the media, creating a cult of violence, just look at kids pretending to be soldiers in airsoft matches... We have people here that will spend 1000 dollars for a fake gun that shoots little plastic balls, how weird is that?

Os Cangaceiros

17th December 2012, 07:09

I mean basic tests, as in nobody who has a history of wanton violence should be able to own a gun. I have yet to see a mass shooter who is not white, psychopathic, and middle to upper class petit bourgeoisie.

Seriously dude? You do know that the worst mass shooting in American history was carried out by someone who wasn't white, right? :rolleyes:

Geiseric

17th December 2012, 07:15

You know i'm incorrect about the "white," point. I'll admit to that now. However the former point still stands. If a person is not insane but has violent tendencies, maybe they shouldn't be allowed to own a gun. I don't know.

white picket fence

17th December 2012, 08:02

imo, crime is in not politicizing something like this, extremely irritating are those who assert some kind of moral superiority because they refuse to talk about politics when any sort of tragedy occurs.

Another thing, what thinking person leaps immediately to the conclusion that gun violence is the problem, and that gun control is the solution. The situation here is that conservatives are actually trying to depoliticize the situation (or hide until it blows over) while the only thing intelligent leftists can do is to try and avoid the idiotic conversation in the fallout between self-righteous liberals talking about gun policy and the rhetoric of those who are basically talking out of their asses.

The most irritating of all are those people who claim they can't "understand" why something like this would happen. the only thing these idiots are able to do is to personalize a tragedy, for the lack of any other meaning in their lives.

The american education system is full of horrible alienating institutions, the culture of late capitalism is meaningless and alienating, families living under these conditions can be abusive and dysfunctional, and yes america has a sick culture of guns, but basically we can't talk about why someone would shoot up an elementary school because although most of us have suffered about the same degree of alienation, we aren't ready to talk about it in those terms.

Ostrinski

17th December 2012, 08:10

Of the 62 mass murders since 1982, 44 of the perpetrators were white males. A little over 2/3rds. Considering the demographics of the country since 1982, I actually don't think that's hugely disproportianate.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

Also, what mass shootings have been carried out for explicitely political purposes (in the USA)? The only one I can think of off the top of my head was the massacre at Ft Hood.Not a shooting but Timothy McVeigh had right wing political views and sympathized with the militia movement and was motivated by such sentiments for his attack.

Devrim

17th December 2012, 09:06

I have yet to see a mass shooter who is not white, psychopathic, and middle to upper class petit bourgeoisie.

Patrick Henry "Crazy Pat" Sherrill (November 13, 1941 – August 20, 1986) was a United States Postal Service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Service) employee who shot twenty co-workers in Edmond, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmond,_Oklahoma), killing fourteen of them, before committing suicide.

Devrim

Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant'

17th December 2012, 10:55

And the debate rages on without a satisfactory conclusion and people, of all ages and creeds, mass shootings and one-on-one killings, keep dieing needlessly so that people can feel 'safe' and get to go huntin' with an assualt rifle on the weekends.
It's infuriating because, as a non-American, it's so hard to undertand why these fucking weapons are seemingly so important to so many Americans and that the Constitution is some infallible document which needs no revision (at least not on the right to own weapons part).

A snippet from a piece on the BBC news website from an article about Dunblane:

In Scotland, the link between the availability of guns and the number of people shot dead every year is accepted. Since Dunblane, the public have remained firmly in favour of keeping firearms out of private hands.
This year, five people have been killed by guns in Scotland. That's in line with the rest of the UK per head of population and a death rate 50 times lower than in the United States.
(Article here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20736167)

I just can't understand why anyone feels that all these deaths are completely justifiable or a necessary evil so that average, law-abiding folk can own a deadly weapon...because it's their 'right'?
Apologies if this point of view is soft or uninformed in some way, but it's prob just a cultural thing where guns just aren't as prevelant or important here, so it seems odd that it is over there, especially in light of the thousands killed each year.

Sasha

17th December 2012, 17:31

apparently mom was a doomsdayprepper; http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/12/17/the-killers-mother-was-preparing-for-the-end-of-the-world

she learned the kid to shoot & she gave him acces to a pretty nasty arsenal and lots of ammo, i wonder what she did to tick the kid of so bad that he not only shot her but than went to her work to kill her students. maybe she spend all the love at her work and all anger at home?
sigh...

made me appreciate michael moore's comment in response to the predictable "we need more guns, not less to stop tragedies like this";
http://www.revleft.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=8986&d=1355765385

also i thought this was food for thought in the gun-controll debate;
It's an illuminating discussion of the history of guns in America, and the relatively recent prominence of the Second Amendment. I especially recommend the first segment, which points out that, contrary to popular myth, "Wild" West towns like Tombstone and Deadwood had some of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation. In most of these towns, you were required to check your guns at the sheriff's office upon arrival. In fact, that's what made the shootout at the O.K. Corral so infamous: shootouts like this were so rare.http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/12/17/the-backstory-on-guns-in-america

Fourth Internationalist

17th December 2012, 19:54

Newtown is only two towns away from my high school, which makes this incident much more scary. Someone in my high school lost his sister, which is so saddening. :'(

brigadista

17th December 2012, 20:35

read somewhere that the shooters mother owned a bushmaster -

here http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/school-shooter-adam-lanza_n_2312818.html
he used it -

why would you have a bushmaster???

Like above im asking because like OP above I want someone to explain to me because i cant see that a bushmaster would be much use for hunting animals...

Os Cangaceiros

17th December 2012, 22:33

A .223 caliber rifle is actually pretty optimal for hunting deer. Of the few times I've been deer hunting I've either had a .223 or a 30-06.

But yeah, that rifle wasn't owned for hunting deer, LOL

A lot of times I think these debates revolve around how "scary" the guns look. That Bushmaster rifle is a good example...that's what most people envision when they hear the term "assault rifle". But actually a .223 with a walnut stock, scope and a bolt action (a "hunting rifle") can have the same magazine capacity as that AR-15...

GoddessCleoLover

17th December 2012, 22:45

brigadista

17th December 2012, 22:52

if what is being reported is true mrs lanza had an arsenal

Os Cangaceiros

17th December 2012, 22:54

Apologies if this point of view is soft or uninformed in some way, but it's prob just a cultural thing where guns just aren't as prevelant or important here, so it seems odd that it is over there, especially in light of the thousands killed each year.

Yeah it's definitely a "cultural thing". It hit me a while back when me and a couple of my friends were riding around in a pick-up truck, hunting rabbits. There was an AR-15 in the truck (which we weren't using to shoot rabbits! There was a .22 rifle as well) and we went down to the beach to shoot at some targets or whatever, we were bored.

Anyway, one of my friends bumpfired (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-nUA52BS3c) the AR-15 (not something to do often as bullets cost money) and it just made me realize how different the USA was from other countries where it's hard to even get a shotgun. And yet it's such an unfree society, it's bizarre.

I'd be lying if I said that I didn't think blasting off a bunch of rounds from an assault rifle isn't fun, though! ;)

GoddessCleoLover

17th December 2012, 23:02

Yeah it's definitely a "cultural thing". It hit me a while back when me and a couple of my friends were riding around in a pick-up truck, hunting rabbits. There was an AR-15 in the truck (which we weren't using to shoot rabbits! There was a .22 rifle as well) and we went down to the beach to shoot at some targets or whatever, we were bored.

Anyway, one of my friends bumpfired (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-nUA52BS3c) the AR-15 (not something to do often as bullets cost money) and it just made me realize how different the USA was from other countries where it's hard to even get a shotgun. And yet it's such an unfree society, it's bizarre.

I'd be lying if I said that I didn't think blasting off a bunch of rounds from an assault rifle isn't fun, though! ;)

Never had the experience. I was brought up old school. Make each shot count. One bullet. One kill. Marksmenship Ueber Alles.

LuÃs Henrique

18th December 2012, 16:10

They're dead, though, so they can't really enjoy their 'infamy'.

People often enjoy those things in advance, like in suicidal fantasies.

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

18th December 2012, 16:14

e: not that that's happened here, talking about facebook; really don't get why some of my fellow brits feel so passionately about guns in america.

Anything that might make Brits (Brazilians, Japanese, Uruguayans, Latvians, Rwandese, Pakistani, Frenchmen) better than Americans will make us feel passionately about it.

Luís Henrique

Yuppie Grinder

18th December 2012, 16:20

Why would any revolutionary be for further gun restrictions under the dictatorship of the bourgeosie?

piet11111

18th December 2012, 16:53

Why would any revolutionary be for further gun restrictions under the dictatorship of the bourgeosie?

Very true.

Also its surprising how much people focus on the weapons this guy had instead of the psychological issues that he had that in all likelihood went untreated/unnoticed for many months if not years.

Why is getting psychological help so difficult ?

LuÃs Henrique

19th December 2012, 10:16

http://www.revleft.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=8986&d=1355765385

Nah. Obviously the problem are the ageist laws that prevent six-year olds from owning their own guns.

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

19th December 2012, 10:26

Why would any revolutionary be for further gun restrictions under the dictatorship of the bourgeosie?

Probably because we think that gun ownership is inextricably linked to the "defence" of "property rights"?

I don't see many leftists condemning the Swiss system. But then Switzerland actually feels that a well organised militia is necessary, and it - gasp - does have a quite well organised militia. The problem in the US is that gun ownership serves mostly for shooting the Martin Travyons around there.

As for the argument that private guns would be useful in a revolution, I doubt it. The country with most liberal laws regarding guns is the United States; it is also the country with the fewer revolutions in modern history.

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

19th December 2012, 10:33

Why is getting psychological help so difficult ?

Because many people who would need psychological help don't realise they need psychological help.

Because there is strong stigma against people who have psychological problems that need psychological help.

Because some stupid but influential religions deny the necessity of psychological help.

Because it is extremely expensive.

Because everything, including mental disease, has been privatised in the late 30 years, so there is no adequate offer of public psychological help, and if you need it, you will have to pay dearly for it. At a time when your wages are being lowered.

There are certainly (many) other causes, but I don't want to spoil everyone's pleasure in identifying them.

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

19th December 2012, 10:38

Of the 62 mass murders since 1982, 44 of the perpetrators were white males. A little over 2/3rds. Considering the demographics of the country since 1982, I actually don't think that's hugely disproportianate.

The disproportion, I think, lies in sex not race. Certainly well over 50% - probably closer to 100% - of those murders were perpetrated by males.

Perhaps Valerie Solanas had something right, after all.

Luís Henrique

Fourth Internationalist

19th December 2012, 19:47

Rest In Peace to all the victims, espcially Victoria Soto, who saved 16 children. She graduated from my high school in 2003, and her brother is in my high school and I've seen him many times, many in my school's faculty knew and taught her and were hit hard by this tragedy. It's amazing how these incidents affect everyone cause everyone is connected to each other. We need to stop these mass murders, whether through gun control, increased mental health care, etc.

Os Cangaceiros

19th December 2012, 22:11

The disproportion, I think, lies in sex not race. Certainly well over 50% - probably closer to 100% - of those murders were perpetrated by males.

Perhaps Valerie Solanas had something right, after all.

Luís Henrique

That discrepancy is hardly new, though. Just look at men are in jail because of violent crime, vs how many women are in jail because of violent crime.

blake 3:17

19th December 2012, 22:16

Perhaps Valerie Solanas had something right, after all.

Luís Henrique

Shoulda aimed better. I hate this stupid macho gun cult. Fuck Amerikkka

TheOneWhoKnocks

20th December 2012, 04:46

In response to the shooting, liberal Democratic Senator Barbara Boxer has proposed deploying the National Guard to schools. (I can't post links yet, but a quick Google search is bound to turn it up.) If this does occur, most troops undoubtedly would be stationed in urban schools composed primarily of people of color, which already suffer from heavy police presence in many areas.

Red Commissar

20th December 2012, 05:01

I guess it wasn't too long for me to see with some of the dumber shit to come out about this. I went around and looked when there came the (unsurprising) news that the WBC crew is going to do their usual picketing with events like these- saw some gems.

First is something that Mike Huckabee said but has been put out by some religious shitwads too, that basically the US is experiencing all this because they've forced God out of where he belongs. Political cartoon from some right-wingers, for example:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/7bdf4cc7ef62ad3915a4ec21e2b75bd7/tumblr_mf8aq9DUmg1r8kiyko1_500.jpg

Here is one:

Mike Huckabee: Sandy Hook shooting not surprising after God &lsquohttp://forums.filefront.com/images/smilies/puke.gifemoved from our schools’ - Under God - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/under-god/post/mike-huckabee-sandy-hook-shooting-not-surprising-after-god-removed-from-our-schools/2012/12/15/088527e6-46e4-11e2-9648-a2c323a991d6_blog.html)

Well, you know it’s an interesting thing. We ask why there’s violence in our schools but we’ve systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage because we’ve made it a place where we don’t want to talk about eternity, life, what responsibility means, accountability. That we’re not just going to have to be accountable to the police if they catch us but one day we stand before a holy God in judgment. If we don’t believe that, then we don’t fear that.

(amusingly, Huckabee in this sense converges with the statements of 'murica's sworn enemy, the Ayatollah (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/17/iranian-supreme-leader-ali-khamenei-echoes-mike-huckabee-on-newtown-school-shooting/), who concluded that violence in US schools is due to lack of God)

The other that has been drawing some heat was a piece published in the National Review. If you know what the National Review is, then you know where this is going. Some contributor there who is rather anti-feminist to begin with went on speculation as to what'd happen if the school was more "masculine", because she claims women are too passive and weak, or some bullshit like that.

Newtown Answers - NRO Symposium - National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/335996/newtown-answers-nro-symposium)

There was not a single adult male on the school premises when the shooting occurred. In this school of 450 students, a sizeable number of whom were undoubtedly 11- and 12-year-old boys (it was a K–6 school), all the personnel — the teachers, the principal, the assistant principal, the school psychologist, the “reading specialist” — were female. There didn’t even seem to be a male janitor to heave his bucket at Adam Lanza’s knees. Women and small children are sitting ducks for mass-murderers. The principal, Dawn Hochsprung, seemed to have performed bravely. According to reports, she activated the school’s public-address system and also lunged at Lanza, before he shot her to death. Some of the teachers managed to save all or some of their charges by rushing them into closets or bathrooms. But in general, a feminized setting is a setting in which helpless passivity is the norm. Male aggression can be a good thing, as in protecting the weak — but it has been forced out of the culture of elementary schools and the education schools that train their personnel. Think of what Sandy Hook might have been like if a couple of male teachers who had played high-school football, or even some of the huskier 12-year-old boys, had converged on Lanza.Emphasis added. IMO it doesn't make a difference when you got bullets going down on you.

LuÃs Henrique

20th December 2012, 08:53

Shoulda aimed better. I hate this stupid macho gun cult. Fuck Amerikkka

Who, me, or Valerie Solanas?

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

20th December 2012, 09:11

Think of what Sandy Hook might have been like if a couple of male teachers who had played high-school football,

Certainly either a place where a couple of male teachers who had played high-school football would have been gunned down, together with female teachers and school kids.

Or a place where a couple of male teachers who had played high-school football would have fled in panic when the shooting started.

The murderer had a semi-automatic rifle, darnit. Don't these people realise what a semi-automatic rifle does?

or even some of the huskier 12-year-old boys, had converged on Lanza.

You all thought I was jesting when I posted about ageist laws preventing six-year-olds from keeping and bearing arms, didn't you?

Now you know better.

(And so do I.)

Luís Henrique

Red Commissar

21st December 2012, 21:48

Anarcho-Caps going along the same lines...

http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the misogynist undercurrent that goes through much of the internet.

SA-Sovietfriend

21st December 2012, 22:15

In my humble opinion, it doesn't help when racists are running around with guns either. They are the ones making it worse for us all.What do you all think of gun control and taking guns away from racist rightwinger idiots? Sorry if I go off topic.

Comrade Bong

21st December 2012, 22:43

Looks like barry will impose some draconian controls in the near future. I'm disappointed