What to do?

[Hermes]

Alright, this is a really, really stupid question. As in, I'm starting to get some of the basics of theory, but I'm not even sure if I know the foundation yet.

What, as communists (of one branch or another), is best for us to do? I'm hesitant to say 'What are our responsibilities', because it sounds far too much like 'if every revolutionary was more active we'd have communism'. Is that what I should be asking though?

Is spreading consciousness up to us, or does it happen 'organically'?

Obviously this is, and should probably, be different depending on where all of us live, etc.

Again, I know that this is probably the most ignorant question that anyone (especially here) could ask, but any help would be appreciated.

[Drosophila]

This question certainly isn't the most ignorant one can ask. In fact, it acts as a big divider on this board and the world at large.

There just isn't a whole lot we can do to "spread consciousness" as individuals. You're just not going to have much luck running into a McDonalds and saying "lookie here everyone, class struggle!" You might be able to get one or two converts by doing that, but the rest are just going to ignore it. This stuff really just has to happen on its own. The standard Leninist/Trotskyist view of "most advanced section of the proletariat" doesn't hold much ground anymore. Sure, the working class needs to organize itself into a revolutionary communist force, but that doesn't necessitate "professional revolutionaries."

[Rugged Collectivist]

I think the idea that people will just become communists when the material conditions are right, and that there's nothing we can do until then, is wrong. When I lost faith in the capitalist system, I went to some pretty weird places ideologically before I became a communist. I only became a communist after reading about communism.

I don't think showing people the principles of communism or yelling about class struggle will automatically make them communists, but there are a ton of people who would understand and accept socialism if they only knew what it was. We have to make sure that our ideas are widely available. It isn't enough that the manifesto is published online. People have to want to read it.

[Blake's Baby]

If you want to take part in a process that encourages the generalisation of class consciousness, then you probably better do that as part of an organisation. Whether that's an organisation of 'professional revolutionaries', or some other kind of activist or propaganda group, probably has more to do with the political currents that you identify with than anything else. So basically, it comes down to who you think is most right - try and work with them, is my advice, if you want to become more involved.

[helot]

I think the task of communists in a pre-revolutionary period is to engage in struggle with others for the social, intellectual and material advancement of the working class. It is our task to help build a strong independent workers movement which can only come about through practical struggle and winning. In a way we've got to build up confidence.

I don't think we can do this through propaganda. Of course, propaganda has its uses but it is being on the ground, side by side with our colleagues, neighbours etc trying to better our own lives and linking the struggles of the working class together that there's even a chance of developing a movement for capitalism's abolition.

[Philosophos]

Well class conciousness can be organically achieved but it will propably take place in 2000 years because of the capitalist propaganda. Our responsibilities are a lot but in the top two is: knowing the theory that we represent and the general theory of communism (for example you might be an anarchist but it is a must that you should read Marx and Engels) and spreading the word all over the world. If people become class consious then the rest will take place "automatically".

By the way there are no stupid questions. It's better to ask a question and be "stupid" for 5 minutes than not asking anything and be stupid for the rest of your life.

[Lowtech]

it is very important to understand that Marxist theory is not so much a theory of economics as it is an observation of capitalism, as capitalism is not economics itself, but rather the exploitation of humans' need to participate with one another economically.

observation of our current society and economic system is truly the key to not only finally demystifying how capitalism functions but also the key to how we can explain it to others in a way that is too clear to deny.

we cannot define communism in political, ideological or even ethical terms, we must define it mathematically, scientifically as a direct observation of how capitalism functions and how capitalism is all together separate from economics.

the only mathematical distinction between the rich and the rest of us as that the rich consume more than they produce. in turn, the working class produces more than it consumes. you must be paid less than the value of your labor for it to be profitable, period.

all commodities are currently designed for exchange value and not use value. exchange value is a fiction of market based economics. markets are not an axiom of economics and all terms describing the dynamics of capitalism; i.e. profit, prices, capital, market value, surplus value are in reality one thing; artificial scarcity.

menial jobs don't exist due to the nature of people but rather due to the nature of those who currently design our jobs. and menial jobs are the most abundant skill set due to the fact profitability increases as positions increase in volume.

these simple observations are the most direct and efficient means to class consciousness.

[The Idler]

It is up to you and the like-minded to spread consciousness and persuade people for support. You can't force people. Vanguards have all these ideas about riding roughshod over the unwilling and the unconvinced. It won't work.

[nativeabuse]

I think we should ascribe to a better sense of gradualism because the world really isn't ready yet, look at almost every country in the world, in almost every single country there is a near 50/50 split between left/right parties.

I think that we spend to much time trying to make liberals into socialists, and not enough time trying to make rightists/centrists into liberals.

I feel like until the split is more like 25/75 right/left in a country, there is no way for communist ideas to take hold.

We need to focus on targeting the youth in right leaning areas instead of preaching to the choir in areas that are already left leaning. We need to be going to towns in the middle of the south or areas like Wyoming and Montana, Nebraska ( in the case of the USA) and building strong propaganda wings there. Which are areas that typically go neglected by left parties who know they can't win them, and thus we wonder why they are always so hard right.

If we can make each person we talk to lean just a bit more left than they did before we talked to them, then we can see massive shifts in consciousness as a whole until we get to the point where we can actually start looking toward implementing communist structures.

[Lowtech]

I think we should ascribe to a better sense of gradualism because the world really isn't ready yet, look at almost every country in the world, in almost every single country there is a near 50/50 split between left/right parties.

I think that we spend to much time trying to make liberals into socialists, and not enough time trying to make rightists/centrists into liberals.

I feel like until the split is more like 25/75 right/left in a country, there is no way for communist ideas to take hold.

We need to focus on targeting the youth in right leaning areas instead of preaching to the choir in areas that are already left leaning. We need to be going to towns in the middle of the south or areas like Wyoming and Montana, Nebraska ( in the case of the USA) and building strong propaganda wings there. Which are areas that typically go neglected by left parties who know they can't win them, and thus we wonder why they are always so hard right.

If we can make each person we talk to lean just a bit more left than they did before we talked to them, then we can see massive shifts in consciousness as a whole until we get to the point where we can actually start looking toward implementing communist structures.

You're trying much too hard to be reasonable. And giving too much weight to "political" ideologies. we aren't socialist based on personal prefrence nor does humanity need socialism based on political choice. Rather, capitalism is the most horrible invention humanity has ever concieved. It is mathematically designed to rob people of thier hardwork, steals the inherent vitality of 3rd world countires that would otherwise allow them to feed themselves. we're not swaying popular political opinion, we are exposing the mathematical nature of capitalism and its insufficiency as an economic system.

[blake 3:17]

What, as communists (of one branch or another), is best for us to do? I'm hesitant to say 'What are our responsibilities', because it sounds far too much like 'if every revolutionary was more active we'd have communism'. Is that what I should be asking though?

Is spreading consciousness up to us, or does it happen 'organically'?

Obviously this is, and should probably, be different depending on where all of us live, etc.

Again, I know that this is probably the most ignorant question that anyone (especially here) could ask, but any help would be appreciated.


It's not stupid or ignorant at all. It all really depends on your social location, social context, and abilities.

[nativeabuse]

You're trying much too hard to be reasonable. And giving too much weight to "political" ideologies. we aren't socialist based on personal prefrence nor does humanity need socialism based on political choice. Rather, capitalism is the most horrible invention humanity has ever concieved. It is mathematically designed to rob people of thier hardwork, steals the inherent vitality of 3rd world countires that would otherwise allow them to feed themselves. we're not swaying popular political opinion, we are exposing the mathematical nature of capitalism and its insufficiency as an economic system.


So you are of the view that if we just tell people all the things that are wrong with capitalism they will magically convert to communism? Or what is your game plan? Try that on any rightist and tell me how that works out. It is near impossible to deprogram people who have been fed a steady diet of capitalist propaganda from authority figures their entire lives. We need to get to people before they are indoctrinated.

Economic opinion is intertwined with political opinion, maybe we just have different definitions on what 'political' consists of, I don't think you can divorce economics from politics, since the capitalist economics are responsible for the social conditions of the world, and thus all domestic and foreign policy is simply a reflection of how people around the world deal with the reality of capitalism. (if that makes any sense, I feel like I didn't word that well enough)

We don't need to focus our energies on people who are already seeing the cracks in capitalism (liberals) and will be easily convinced to make the jump over to socialism with time.

We need to focus our energy on destroying the base of people who believe that capitalism is a god given gift that needs to be cherished and protected in every way. We need to focus our energies on people who see capitalism as complete perfection like libertarians and conservatives.

More specifically we need to focus on their kids, if nobody intervenes they will grow up clones of their parents and the cycle of capitalist indoctrination will live. We need to break the cycle of capitalist indoctrination, and make it so that when the older generations set in their ways die off, there will be no younger generation to come and replace them.

[Let's Get Free]

I don't know, for me, if we "revolutionaries" have a job, it is to be aware, fluid and Ok with not having the recipe that will create revolution.The world seems ripe for revolt (the misery, the death, etc) but nothing happens.

[Lowtech]

So you are of the view that if we just tell people all the things that are wrong with capitalism they will magically convert to communism? Or what is your game plan?yes, communism is magically delicious.

but all joking aside, no i don't believe they will magically convert. our role is not unlike science that defends evolution. my only point was simply that communism isn't simply a favorable political ideology, it is the scientifically correct economic system (with the definition of economy being a public utility whose intended purpose is to sustain a civilization), direct mathematical observation of capitalism confirms this.
Economic opinion is intertwined with political opinion, maybe we just have different definitions on what 'political' consists of, I don't think you can divorce economics from politics,i think you're both correct and incorrect about this. capitalism cannot exist without the combination of economics and politics, or more accurately the distortion of economics via politics (which they have completely compromised politics through lobbyists and other economic subversion; military industrial complex etc). we "the aware" must expose this.
since the capitalist economics are responsible for the social conditions of the world, and thus all domestic and foreign policy is simply a reflection of how people around the world deal with the reality of capitalism. (if that makes any sense, I feel like I didn't word that well enough)i completely agree with you here and i think i couldn't have worded it any better.
We don't need to focus our energies on people who are already seeing the cracks in capitalism (liberals) and will be easily convinced to make the jump over to socialism with time.

We need to focus our energy on destroying the base of people who believe that capitalism is a god given gift that needs to be cherished and protected in every way. We need to focus our energies on people who see capitalism as complete perfection like libertarians and conservatives.

More specifically we need to focus on their kids, if nobody intervenes they will grow up clones of their parents and the cycle of capitalist indoctrination will live. We need to break the cycle of capitalist indoctrination, and make it so that when the older generations set in their ways die off, there will be no younger generation to come and replace them.there is a lot of logic here. although, i feel that applied communism utilizing those already on our side will be the strongest example that the far right can't deny. the one argument they stand by is that if communism were truly that good, why don't most people live communistically? if we focus our energies on "convincing" people versus actually building communism for those of us welcoming it now, we're working against the grain rather than with it.

[Oswy]

I think the idea that people will just become communists when the material conditions are right, and that there's nothing we can do until then, is wrong. When I lost faith in the capitalist system, I went to some pretty weird places ideologically before I became a communist. I only became a communist after reading about communism.

I don't think showing people the principles of communism or yelling about class struggle will automatically make them communists, but there are a ton of people who would understand and accept socialism if they only knew what it was. We have to make sure that our ideas are widely available. It isn't enough that the manifesto is published online. People have to want to read it.

I still think that material conditions are critical to whether or not significant numbers of people find themselves wanting to read about socialism and communism - our motives and impulses are, ultimately, directed by our conditions.

Capitalism's advances are continuing, despite the crises and despite the inequities and environmental catastrophy, and it may not be until the flame uses up its candle that enough people will find their conditions driving a reorientation. This may seem like a pessimistic position but we have to recognise that Capitalism is a full-blown global mode of production and like other modes of production before, like feudalism, it might take centuries before suffering transformation or overthrow :crying:

[ArrowLance]

This question certainly isn't the most ignorant one can ask. In fact, it acts as a big divider on this board and the world at large.

There just isn't a whole lot we can do to "spread consciousness" as individuals. You're just not going to have much luck running into a McDonalds and saying "lookie here everyone, class struggle!" You might be able to get one or two converts by doing that, but the rest are just going to ignore it. This stuff really just has to happen on its own. The standard Leninist/Trotskyist view of "most advanced section of the proletariat" doesn't hold much ground anymore. Sure, the working class needs to organize itself into a revolutionary communist force, but that doesn't necessitate "professional revolutionaries."

When was the last time you went to mass rally that wasn't facilitated by 'professional revolutionaries'? The vanguard isn't a theory, it's a fact. There exist more advanced workers, and they lead and uplift.

[Rugged Collectivist]

I still think that material conditions are critical to whether or not significant numbers of people find themselves wanting to read about socialism and communism - our motives and impulses are, ultimately, directed by our conditions.

Oh yeah of course. What I mean is, there are a ton of people who are suffering under capitalism, but they can't imagine an alternative to it.

Someone can only become a communist under the right conditions but they won't necessarily become a communist under those conditions.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

The job of revolutionaries is to assist the proletariat in education by informing, and where need be, debating them on the nature of capitalism, the native ruling class, Imperialism, and Leftism in general. Class consciousness is something they must develop on their own. We can help them through be the aforementioned means yet ultimately it will be up to them, and their specific social-condition, to make a political leap from uninformed, or even reactionary, to informed, progressive and ready to partake in the struggle.

Seeking out advanced elements for use in a political organization is something else entirely (though there is some cross-over).

[Thelonious]

I started by joining a labor union many years ago (I am starting to get the feeling that I am older than the average member here at Revleft, not that there is anything wrong with that). That is not to say that everyone who is a member of a union is a communist, or even to the left of the center of the political spectrum. I recently had a heated conversation with a fellow union member who voted for Romney.

I have also begun to educate my sons; I have three; ages 7, 12, and 14. We have read the Manifest of The Communist Party together and I make sure to keep on top of what they are learning in Social Studies and History class, so I can promptly correct the many lies and falsehoods they are taught in school. I will not force my children into any particular ideology, but I want them to get an accurate portrayal of whatever they are learning, and they certainly will not get that in an American public school.

Some of their cousins and friends have become very interested in our "talks" and we welcome anyone into our home who would like to learn the basic tenets of Marxism along with us. I feel that it is very important to give younger Americans accurate lessons that are not presented to them with a capitalist slant.

[Thelonious]

Again, I know that this is probably the most ignorant question that anyone (especially here) could ask, but any help would be appreciated.[/QUOTE]

At the risk of sounding cliche, there is no such thing as an ignorant question.

[Decolonize The Left]

The job of revolutionaries is to assist the proletariat in education by informing, and where need be, debating them on the nature of capitalism, the native ruling class, Imperialism, and Leftism in general. Class consciousness is something they must develop on their own. We can help them through be the aforementioned means yet ultimately it will be up to them, and their specific social-condition, to make a political leap from uninformed, or even reactionary, to informed, progressive and ready to partake in the struggle.

Seeking out advanced elements for use in a political organization is something else entirely (though there is some cross-over).

This, only I'd hesitate to refer to the working class as "they" as opposed to "we." We are, at least I am, a part of the working class. But yes, in short, the duty of the revolutionary is to raise class consciousness and combat reactionary forces wherever possible and tactically feasible.