Factors behind Soviet Nostalgia I

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Is more due to how the eastern block truly was better off under the commies or is it more due to the common desire for a weakened society to look fondly upon a more stable age?

[ВАЛТЕР]

I think it's that people had job security and did not fear going hungry or getting sick. whatever problems the Eastern block had, they at least had much less drugs, crime, and poverty. People had a roof over their heads, they had a job, they could go to a doctor if need be and their children went to school. This is at least from what I observed. You could go out at night and know you weren't going to get stabbed or beaten by drunken football hooligans.

[kashkin]

East Germany had a relatively high rate of female employment, strong childcare, good public housing, etc. From my limited experience with 'Ostalgie', many people who lived in former East Germany miss the above and the sense of community and solidarity that they felt.

[ind_com]

Is more due to how the eastern block truly was better off under the commies or is it more due to the common desire for a weakened society to look fondly upon a more stable age?

Because it was much better off. It was socialism.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Because it was much better off. It was socialism.

I thought it was state capitalism?

[hetz]

Because todays Eastern Europe ( with a few exceptions ) is horribly shit.
Yeah, it was better back then, even in Romania ( according to Romanians in some recent polls ).

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I thought it was state capitalism?

...depending on who you ask, it could be, while others will say different. Not all thoughts are monolithic on RevLeft.

[Ocean Seal]

It doesn't matter what it was, it was considerably better in most countries including the most fucked up ones like Romania.

[ind_com]

I thought it was state capitalism?

What TheGodlessUtopian said. We MLs and Maoists consider post-revolution state-capitalism to be the starting point of socialism.

[l'Enfermé]

Ind_Com, I thought it was revisionist, thus Mao's alliance with the US against the Soviet Union was alright?

[ind_com]

Ind_Com, I thought it was revisionist, thus Mao's alliance with the US against the Soviet Union was alright?

I had the USSR under Lenin and Stalin in mind when I said that. However, even though post-Stalin USSR became revisionist, it still carried on many materially beneficial programmes from the socialist era. The capitalist restoration was completed only with the final dissolution of the USSR.

[Let's Get Free]

Soviet nostalgia runs high among conservative old people and nationalistic young people.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Soviet nostalgia runs high among conservative old people and nationalistic young people.

If we are to go by stereotypes I would say the opposite is true...

but at any rate, back up that claim of yours please...

[TheRedAnarchist23]

I think it's that people had job security and did not fear going hungry or getting sick. whatever problems the Eastern block had, they at least had much less drugs, crime, and poverty. People had a roof over their heads, they had a job, they could go to a doctor if need be and their children went to school. This is at least from what I observed. You could go out at night and know you weren't going to get stabbed or beaten by drunken football hooligans.

That's what fascists say about Portugal before the revolution!

[hetz]

Soviet nostalgia runs high among conservative old people and nationalistic young people.
You're talking about Nazism.

[Let's Get Free]

I think it's that people had job security and did not fear going hungry or getting sick. whatever problems the Eastern block had, they at least had much less drugs, crime, and poverty. People had a roof over their heads, they had a job, they could go to a doctor if need be and their children went to school. This is at least from what I observed. You could go out at night and know you weren't going to get stabbed or beaten by drunken football hooligans.

Living standards did indeed decline sharply after the collapse of the USSR. But I think if their decrepit old state capiltalist "command ecnomy" had not collapsed, if the state capitalist class - or red bourgeosie - had not decided enough was enough, the living standards of Russian workers would have plummeted anyway. The trend was certainly moving in that direction

[prolcon]

And what caused it to move in that direction?

[Let's Get Free]

With the diversification of the economy, growth slowed significantly and it was already becoming obvious that the cumbersome state capitalist "command economy" model was becoming more and more unwieldy, inefficient and uncompetitive in an increasingly globalized and competitive capitalist global economy.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

You're talking about Nazism.

No he was talking about ultra nationalists who are pretty much WW2 stalinist propaganda gone wrong.

[Ostrinski]

Actually I think what Gladiator said isn't completely untrue. I think if we were going to be completely reasonable the conclusion would probably be a synthesis between what Valter and Gladiator said. It is true that everything went to shit when the Soviet Union collapsed and it probably is true there are those that things turned to shit for and long for the old system where they had more stability.

However, I also feel like we would be foolish and inconsistent not to apply the same standard to the fSU that we would generally apply to conservative ideology in other parts of the world that did not live under Communist rule. Romance of the past is noting specific to any given region as I'm sure many of us with conservative family members know. It is certainly not outside of the realm of reason to say that many in Eastern Europe identify culturally with the Soviet Union.

This is to say nothing of the class nature of the Soviet Union however as I don't think it's really related contrary to what some Leninist comrades will probably say, you'll find older folk in many different countries who feel like they were better off a few decades ago than now etc. We've certainly heard this in the US (who else is tired of hearing how baby boomers changed the world).

I don't think it has much to do with the implications of socialist views in the fSU either because wanting what was had in the past is not worker emancipation, it is wanting a former state of being where the working class most certainly did not have power.

[hetz]

The trend was certainly moving in that direction I'd really like to see evidence for this, for it contradicts what I've heard and read about this.
Various charts I've seen regarding the basic indicators of living standards and consumption in the USSR in general show that there was a consistent trent of rising living standards up to the late 80s.


No he was talking about ultra nationalists who are pretty much WW2 stalinist propaganda gone wrong.
What?

[prolcon]

I don't think it has much to do with the implications of socialist views in the fSU either because wanting what was had in the past is not worker emancipation, it is wanting a former state of being where the working class most certainly did not have power.

I can agree with this, even as a Leninist, although the question of power is, I think, is a little more nuanced that described above.

[Ostrinski]

Plummeting of living standards, impoverishment, et al. and to the degree that these developments happened was probably related to the rapidity of the planned economy's dismantlement. Marketization policies were implemented as early as the 60's but one cannot deny the almost overnight transition.

It seems as though the Chinese economy was privatized more slowly and with a different sequence than in the Russia and at a less extreme rate, i.e. starting from the ground up with the privatization of small consumer enterprises whereas in Russia they basically started with the top down when they started handing off large estates and financial positions off to former bureaucrats.

[Tim Cornelis]

If we are to go by stereotypes I would say the opposite is true...

but at any rate, back up that claim of yours please...

Stereotypes would actually confirm that old people in Russia favour the old "communist" rule.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2009/11/02/end-of-communism-cheered-but-now-with-more-reservations/

http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2009/11/2009-communism-59.png
http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2009/11/2009-communism-68.png
http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2009/11/2009-communism-73.png
http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2009/11/2009-communism-80.png
http://www.pewglobal.org/files/legacy/267-06.gif

And also (not generational):

http://www.pewglobal.org/files/legacy/267-09.gif
http://www.pewglobal.org/files/legacy/267-05.gif

[Ostrinski]

I can agree with this, even as a Leninist, although the question of power is, I think, is a little more nuanced that described above.Indeed so, which is why I chose not to pursue it further so as not to derail the thread.

[Czcibor]

Because todays Eastern Europe ( with a few exceptions ) is horribly shit.
Yeah, it was better back then, even in Romania ( according to Romanians in some recent polls ).

As Polish I'm not sure whether I should feel offended, or just treat that as a comment of person with somewhat limited contact with reality.




You're talking about Nazism.
But support for that two totalitarian systems coexist perfectly with each other:
['IMG]http ://myplacefp7.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/table-4-map-npd-membership-per-100000-test.png?w=614&h=562[/IMG]

Same promise that the gov would combat all the enemies that are responsible for all harms and provide lot's of free stuff for citizens. There is only some minor subject who the enemies are... But judging from real life examples, when National Socialist concentrated first on looting Jewish businessmen, while Stalin commit ethnically based extermination programs, that's mostly a matter of nuances.

[Jack]

Expanding on what Tim posted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_referendum,_1991

Most Soviet citizens were against the dissolution of the Soviet Union, if they knew what the 1990's had in store for them I'd think it'd be a universal vote for preservation.

[freehobo]

I think it has to do with the fact that you remember yesterday much better than 50 years ago. Your life is crummy, you start thinking the grass was greener 50 years ago, when you probably weren't even born.

[Conscript]

But support for that two totalitarian systems coexist perfectly with each other:That graph doesn't support your claim. This is guilt by association.

Nationalism is prominent in east germany because it didn't adjust well and has economic woes, like unemployment. The story is similar in the rest of eastern europe, including poland. Fascism tends rear its head where liberalism is falling out of favor with the ruling class and capitalism is enduring crises.

In other words, you're saying communism and fascism are the same because they become relevant as your system dies.


Same promise that the gov would combat all the enemies that are responsible for all harms and provide lot's of free stuff for citizens. There is only some minor subject who the enemies are...

This abstraction applies to any bourgeois nation-state.