What the fuck is...? 1

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

I present to you the first general topic thread intended to ask "What the fuck is this"? If something needs to be expanded it will.

I'll go first:
What the fuck is parecon?

[Grenzer]

I believe it stands for Participatory Economics.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

I believe it stands for Participatory Economics.

Duh. Now what is it? (the 1990s variety)

[Red Banana]

An economic model crafted by Michael Albert. It's 3 main principles are: proportional self management (decision making power in relation to how much the decision affects you), balanced job complexes (equitably sharing "empowering" and "non-empowering" tasks/jobs in the workplace; abolish the division of labor), and renumeration for work (wages based on the duration, intensity, and onerousness of your work)

I really like the proportional self management and balanced job complexes, but Alberts renumeration or "fair" wages system is absolute nonsense.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Seems like Michel Albert is a utopian.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

What the fuck is your definition of a Utopian?

[Red Banana]

A bit. I get the impression from him that he just wants to be the 21st century Marx so he needs his own theory to differentiate himself from the rest. That's no good excuse for advocating reforming rather than abolishing the wages system.

Nevertheless, I belong to a (at least nominally) pareconist organization: www.iopsociety.org/ I'm sure if you read znet at all you've heard about this more than once lol

It looks like it has some potential and I encourage you guys to check it out and join. It's an interim organization so nothing is set in stone until the founding convention. Hopefully if there are enough (and I think there are) non pareconists in the organization we can push out the renumeration shit and the like.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

What the fuck would be the difference between ian and ist? (marxist versus marxian)

[Yuppie Grinder]

A Marxian is a subscriber to the philosophy of history and social science called Historical Materialism, but they don't necessarily have revolutionary socialist politics.
A Marxist is a subscriber to Historical Materialist and believes in the Communist doctrine of the emancipation of all the worlds exploited and oppressed peoples.

[GoddessCleoLover]

The fucking emphasis is different. The fucking use of the fucking suffix -ist is fucking quasi-religious.:D

[GoddessCleoLover]

A Marxian is a subscriber to the philosophy of history and social science called Historical Materialism, but they don't necessarily have revolutionary socialist politics.
A Marxist is a subscriber to Historical Materialist and believes in the Communist doctrine of the emancipation of all the worlds exploited and oppressed peoples.

I meant it in the sense that I don't view Marxism as a dogma or a religion. Your explanation is a better articulation. I expressed myself in an idiosyncratic way.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

What the fuck is your definition of a Utopian?

"Utopian" refers to the French (and British) socialist tendency to spend more time planning socialism than worrying about how to implement it. This tendency had a direct influence on Marx's politics and is given a critique within the Manifesto. Marx's attitude towards this tendency can be best described as people creating "recipes for future kitchens".

the term is currently used to describe people who exhibit similar traits: planning a new society instead of focusing on how to get there.

[Rugged Collectivist]

This is a great idea for a thread!

I've got one. What the fuck is proletocracy.

[Ravachol]

It's capital wearing the mask of self-management. Also, its a blueprint that'll be unworkable and outdated if it's ever going to be realized.

[The Douche]

Proletocracy is a revleft meme, it was an idea advocated by DNZ that means nothing in the real world.

[Ravachol]

Note: What I said was meant for both PareCon and 'proletocracy', though I'm sceptical to what extend I would call 'proletocracy' capital wearing the mask of self-management, as I don't think it even wears that mask.

[Zukunftsmusik]

What the fuck is your definition of a Utopian?

see my sig

[Yuppie Grinder]

Proletocracy is a revleft meme, it was an idea advocated by DNZ that means nothing in the real world.

He pretty much uses really obscure made up language to mask how intellectually bankrupt his thought is.

[Rugged Collectivist]

So it's just something DNZ made up? Okay. I have another one.

What the fuck do people mean when they talk about economism and political struggle.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Economism and political struggle are usually counterposed, with the former referring to the trade union oriented struggle for better pay and conditions of employment while the latter refers to broader struggles.

[helot]

Why the fuck do some socialists have this obsession with picking sides in capitalist vs capitalist conflicts on the otherside of the planet when they have absolutely no influence in it?

[Yuppie Grinder]

Why the fuck do some socialists have this obsession with picking sides in capitalist vs capitalist conflicts on the otherside of the planet when they have absolutely no influence in it?

becuz anti-emperielizm!!!!!!!!!!!11

[GoddessCleoLover]

I suppose it gives them a feeling of importance to have a "line" on all major world events, whether or not that "line" is or is not well-reassoned.

[Die Neue Zeit]

It's capital wearing the mask of self-management. Also, its a blueprint that'll be unworkable and outdated if it's ever going to be realized.

It's related to revolutionary strategy, and related to the need for worker-class political power, something which you really need to understand.


So it's just something DNZ made up? Okay. I have another one.

What the fuck do people mean when they talk about economism and political struggle.

What Gramsci Guy said is only partially correct:


You're describing narrow economism. Broad economism however, to put it simply, encompasses every type of politics (within the communist sense) that doesn't put the fight for radical democracy and, as such, proletarian political hegemony, first.

[Grenzer]

Ravachol understands revolutionary strategy, he just knows that it is to be found within the present conditions of class struggle, not within the desiccated corpses of the failures of the past.

[The Douche]

Why the fuck do some socialists have this obsession with picking sides in capitalist vs capitalist conflicts on the otherside of the planet when they have absolutely no influence in it?

Because they have hardman fantasies about running and gunning through city streets.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Because they have hardman fantasies about running and gunning through city streets.

Those who fantasize about running and gunning might want to keep it in the fantasy realm lest they shit their pants when confronted with the real deal.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

What the fuck is the cause of most sit in protests devolving into drum circles?

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

What the fuck is the cause of most sit in protests devolving into drum circles?

Satan. or someone who's methods are his?

[GoddessCleoLover]

What the fuck is the cause of most sit in protests devolving into drum circles?

We didn't used to do that shit back in the 70s. Must be some New Age-y thing that Occupiers like to do, along with hand signals and daily GAs. I would prefer that protests devolve into Avantian orgies.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

^--- Yeah, what Gramsci said was probably more accurate


Satan. or someone who's methods are his?

[The Douche]

Tighten up or the thread will have to get closed, thanks.

[GoddessCleoLover]

How does one tighten up a thread that began as random speculation?:confused:

[The Douche]

I don't think its "random speculation" I think people are asking questions and getting answers. It's the learning forum, and it should be more serious in here especially, because new posters don't need to be bombarded by dumb shit.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

I don't think its "random speculation" I think people are asking questions and getting answers. It's the learning forum, and it should be more serious in here especially, because new posters don't need to be bombarded by dumb shit.

I meant this thread to be both. Can you just close it so i can put What the fuck is...? II in chitchat?