Help! Should I go to Avakian meeting?

[Althusser]

I went to a seminar at John Jay College with Dr. Cornel West, Immortal Technique, and Khalil Gibran Muhammad. I met people with The Revolutionary Communist Party and The "Revolution club". I got a strange cultish feeling about their Bob Avakian worship. I'm pondering whether or not I should go to a seminar in 3 hours at "Revolution books" in Manhatten to meet with them. They called me last night and invited me (I probably gave my number at John Jay College)

Any info about Bob Avakian's Revolutionary Communist Party?

[Lucretia]

Well, they won't kidnap you or anything. Just don't get your hopes up.

[Prometeo liberado]

Hell yes you should go! The man is absolutely insane. Get it while you can. I'm soooo jealous. Try and read his New Synthesis, you'll cry or die. Read up on what the Nepali comrades have said in regards to that and him, you'll laugh, cry and die.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I know that bookstore. They do seem to pack 'em in evenings. Having said this no one on the left takes BA or the RCP the least bit seriously.At first glance Avakian sounds like a dynamic speaker who tells it like it us but after a half hour or so of him you'll realize he isn't saying anything any half way decent leftist would say.

Its kinda crappy weather out so I'd say sure, go there. Don't take the RCP the least bit seriously though. There are many better socialist organisations in the NY area.

[Luc]

if ur interested recently the RCP-USA criticised the CP of Afghanistan (Maoists) and then they responded to the RCP-USA. Here's a little blog post about it and the Afghan's response in PDF form:
http://moufawad-paul.blogspot.ca/2012/11/the-communist-maoist-party-of.html

also and related to the above, the RCP-USA was a member of the Revolutionary Internatinoalist Movement, a Maoist international that basically founded Marxism-leninism-Maoism as distinct from MaoZedong Thought and featured more serious parties like the Peruvians and the Nepalese maoists

i duno if RCP-USA used to be serious/not crazy cultish and i wonder what there role will be in the reformation of the RIM (if it ever happens), personally hoping they are kicked

[Yuppie Grinder]

It's a sort of a cult, so don't get to close to them. He's pretty unintentionally hilarious though, so if you wanna go and not take it to seriously, have fun.

[Althusser]

Cornel West gave a shout out to a dude in the crowd who was going to be in court the next day for some clash with the police during a protest. West was like, "This man is with the Revolutionary Communist Party."

I was like oh, ok. I went over to the table at the end to ask about their take on Syria. They couldn't give me a straight answer. They sort of implied that they were waiting for a statement from Bob or something. I plan to read his new version of the communist manifesto when I get the chance. Lol I've seen pictures of them wear his face on their shirts. Yesterday I was on Maoist Rebel News livestream and I asked what he thought of Bob Avakian's Revolutionary Communist Party. He called it a cult and was laughing about how they chant "B-A, B-A" at rallies.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous if a party gives the writings of the party's chairman precedence over Marx's own writings.

[Yuppie Grinder]

If even the Maoist Rebel News guy thinks something is creepy, it's probably good to stay away from it.

[Sasha]

you should go decked out as the ultimate Avakian fanboy, like t'shirt, several pins, his writings under his arm, memorizing Avakian quotations and interjecting them at totally inappropriate and irrelevant moments and see when (or even "if") the coin drops you are trolling them...

[Sasha]

also i just skipped over to Bob's wiki to see if there was other stuff to troll them with and i actually really almost choked on my drink reading the first paragraph;

Bob Avakian (born on March 7, 1943) is Chairman of the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Communist_Party,_USA) (RCP), which he has led since its formation in 1975. He is a veteran of the Free Speech Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Movement) and the Left of the 1960s and early 1970s,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Avakian#cite_note-1) and was closely associated with the Black Panther Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Avakian#cite_note-2) He has continually published writings on Marxism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism) and Maoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoism) for over 35 years and is viewed by many inside and outside the communist movement as the foremost Maoist revolutionary in the U.S.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] He has described his body of theoretical work and everything he does as a communist leader as focused on "developing a scientific understanding of the world and providing leadership in radically transforming it toward the goal of revolution and the final aim of communism.emphasis mine... oh dear, the faithful minions cant even manage to hide their subjectiveness for even a mere second.

it goes on until the very last paragraph (which is a hoot on itself, quoted below) to cite almost only bob avakians own memoirs for any and all information...

the kicker;


Claims of "Cult of Personality"

The RCP has been widely criticized on the Left for constructing a cult of personality around Avakian. During an interview with a college radio program in Madison, Wisconsin whether there was a cult of personality being developed around Bob Avakian, Avakian responded "I certainly hope so — we’ve been working very hard to create one."[66] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Avakian#cite_note-66)
The debate has taken on renewed life since a prominent fellow affiliate in the Revolutionary Internationalist Movement, the Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist), has disassociated themselves from this method of promoting leaders. Avakian contends that there are two mainstays of communist political work: the role of the party press and the 'Appreciation, Promotion and Popularization' of Bob Avakian".
Mike Ely, a founding member of the RCP as well as former editor of Revolution, recently broke with Avakian citing the RCP's position that Bob Avakian's personal status is a "cardinal question".[67] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Avakian#cite_note-67)


:laugh:

[GoddessCleoLover]

I would recommend not getting involved with the RCPUSA. They are all about promoting the cult of Chairman Bob and you don't want to get sucked into that sort of nonsense.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Yea, most people on the Maoist left view him as a wrecker who stuck his nose in the business of other people's revolutions too many times. If anything you should go their to take a few copies of the Communist Party of Afghanistan's polemic and distribute it amougst the Bobites and see how they react to intelligent thought. I also advise you read the panflet yourself since it's well written and quite engaging considering it's source (generally, theorists from parties engaged in armed conflict or preparing to engage in armed conflict don't have the best of writing styles, which is understandable since they don't have the luxury of writing from a nice heated house building like we do.)

[GoddessCleoLover]

My guess is that he would be summarily ejected. I wouldn't get them the satisfaction.

[Ostrinski]

Do it for the experience.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Dealing with the RCPUSA can certainly be an "experience".:D

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

you are so lucky to be invited to this meeting. You owe it to the rest of us to go and have a good time.

[Ostrinski]

I wonder what would happen if you saw RCP folks at a rally or demonstration and you screamed out at them "Fuck Bob Avakian!"

[GoddessCleoLover]

The response might come in the form of an Alpine pickaxe.:sneaky:

[Ilyich]

Is Bob Avakian going to be there himself? Or, is this just a meeting of RCPUSA members?

[Bronco]

Yeah go, it'll be funny

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

I wonder what would happen if you saw RCP folks at a rally or demonstration and you screamed out at them "Fuck Bob Avakian!"
That would just be mean. Like shouting "Fuck Joseph Smith" at Mormons. The response would probably be the same; a physical and verbal thrashing.

[Yuppie Grinder]

That would just be mean. Like shouting "Fuck Joseph Smith" at Mormons. The response would probably be the same; a physical and verbal thrashing.

you're forgetting these are bobites
they're probably to busy re-alphabatizing their anime collections to do some push ups

[The Idler]

Let us know how it goes.

[hetz]

Go for teh lulz and report back.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Would Mormons really kick your ass if you said "fuck Joseph Smith"? I doubt it.

[Ostrinski]

Would Christians kick your ass if you said "fuck Jesus?" Depends on the Christian probably

[Goblin]

Avakian is crazy. But i still think you should go. Might be educational.

[Yuppie Grinder]

I go by the name of Jesus and some Christians throw hissy fits because of it.

[Aurora]

If you're interested go and argue a communist position, you might even get some comrades to question the RCP leadership, i'm sure most of the membership are genuine but buying into an unhealthy and undemocratic party culture.

[thriller]

Seriously just go and troll. Ask everyone where Bob is.
The RCP is pretty ridiculous. I ran into them in Wisconsin a while back. When I asked their opinions they always responded: "Well Bob Avakian..." Didn't they (or maybe still are) try/trying to raise $100,000 to publish their new "Constitution of the Socialist Republic of North America"? Right there shows how... interesting(?) they are.

[GoddessCleoLover]

PLEASE do NOT go and say Fuck Bob Avakian or ask RCPers about BA's location. The RCPUSA is a cult and goofing on their Great Leader could lead to serious consequences. They might view you as a threat to BA and hence a counter-revolutionary. Back in the 70s members of the RCPUSA used physical violence and weapons against their former comrades from the RWHq and the RSB. Since then they have become significantly more cultish and unless one is a masochist and hates life it might be a serious mistake to troll the RCPUSA.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

You should go so you can spy on them and send it to the new RIM so we can sabotage their activities. That'll show'em

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I would go just to see them in person. Observe how they work and communicate and draw your own conclusions. Sounds like a interesting activity, everything considered. Be sure to write up a report back so we all know how it went.

[Let's Get Free]

I wouldn't. I've read a few of Bob's writings and did not find a single original or interesting argument in them.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

I would go just to see them in person. Observe how they work and communicate and draw your own conclusions. Sounds like a interesting activity, everything considered. Be sure to write up a report back so we all know how it went.

Yea, Ignore my dumb jokes and do this

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Eat a lot of beans, cabbage, and real sushi (as in none of that cooked BS) starting the day before so you have bad gas when you're there.


Sushi farts, christ...

[Ostrinski]

PLEASE do NOT go and say Fuck Bob Avakian or ask RCPers about BA's location. The RCPUSA is a cult and goofing on their Great Leader could lead to serious consequences. They might view you as a threat to BA and hence a counter-revolutionary. Back in the 70s members of the RCPUSA used physical violence and weapons against their former comrades from the RWHq and the RSB. Since then they have become significantly more cultish and unless one is a masochist and hates life it might be a serious mistake to troll the RCPUSA.But what if like, you were at a demo with a bunch of other people from other parties and you outnumbered them.

[Hermes]

But what if like, you were at a demo with a bunch of other people from other parties and you outnumbered them.

They have lists

No but seriously I'm in a somewhat similar position. As far as I know, there aren't really any organizations in my area, but this Revolution Books nearby has events and everything. Their paper is terrible though. There honestly isn't a page that is devoid of Bob Avakian or BA or something of the sort.

[prolcon]

they're probably to busy re-alphabatizing their anime collections to do some push ups

I give you guys a lot of shit, but know that I really do treasure moments like this.

[ellipsis]

PLEASE do NOT go and say Fuck Bob Avakian or ask RCPers about BA's location. The RCPUSA is a cult and goofing on their Great Leader could lead to serious consequences. They might view you as a threat to BA and hence a counter-revolutionary. Back in the 70s members of the RCPUSA used physical violence and weapons against their former comrades from the RWHq and the RSB. Since then they have become significantly more cultish and unless one is a masochist and hates life it might be a serious mistake to troll the RCPUSA.

They have gotten pied at the sf anarchist book fair after which they stopped going. More recently they had water thrown on their lit in Oakland by some queer comrades, which did lead to a physical altercation.

I have called BA a cult leader to a person trying to pass out avakian lit at OSF and they just walked off.

[The Idler]

PLEASE do NOT go and say Fuck Bob Avakian or ask RCPers about BA's location. The RCPUSA is a cult and goofing on their Great Leader could lead to serious consequences. They might view you as a threat to BA and hence a counter-revolutionary. Back in the 70s members of the RCPUSA used physical violence and weapons against their former comrades from the RWHq and the RSB. Since then they have become significantly more cultish and unless one is a masochist and hates life it might be a serious mistake to troll the RCPUSA.
What if you asked really innocuously? Like
"Hey guys just before we start, can I ask a quick question?"
"Yeah?"
"Uh, does anyone know where Bob is?"
"What?"
"Yeah, Bobby A, the Blob, the New Synthesis?"
"Excuse me?"
"OMG, you don't know Bob?"
"Can we ..."
"Okay, someone tell him revleft says hi"

[GoddessCleoLover]

All that I know for certain is that the RCPUSA had a track record back in the 7os that included beating their former comrades (RWHq) with baseball bats. I also know that they regard BA as almost the reincarnation of Lenin and view queries as to his whereabouts as implicit threats on his life. My previous post was intended as a warning against playing with fire. Sometimes one can play with fire and NOT get burned. OTOH sometimes one gets burned severely. I don't have a crystal ball ball, but I wouldn't recommend taunting the RCPUSA about their Great Leader.

If the RCPUSA were the only game in my town I would change towns before I would get involved with them. Back in the 70s they were a disreputable lot whom I avoided (the best ones left in the RWHq split). They totally discredited themselves by attempting "uprisings" on May Day in 1980. Since then they have degenerated to the point that they resemble the La Rouche-ites more than real Marxists. I might go to a program if they had an interesting speaker like Sunsara Taylor or Dr. Cornel West. I might even go see Avakian speak for the lulz, but I wouldn't get into shit with RCPUSA members because IMO they might respond irrationally.

[Vanguard1917]

'[S]uch was my aversion to the personality cult that at the time of the International, when plagued by numerous moves — originating from various countries — to accord me public honour, I never allowed one of these to enter the domain of publicity, nor did I ever reply to them, save with an occasional snub. When Engels and I first joined the secret communist society, we did so only on condition that anything conducive to a superstitious belief in authority be eliminated from the Rules.'
- Marx

'All our lives we fought against exalting the individual, against the elevation of the single person, and long ago we were over and done with the business of a hero, and here it comes up again: the glorification of one personality. This is not good at all. I am just like everybody else.'
- Lenin

'I remember, for example, being challenged by someone interviewing me — I believe this was on a college radio station in Madison, Wisconsin — who asked insistently: "Is there a 'cult of personality' developing around Bob Avakian?" And I replied: "I certainly hope so — we’ve been working very hard to create one."
- Bob Avakian

[Sasha]

Pissing on bob avakian/the rcpusa, its what brings revleft together..

[GoddessCleoLover]

I thought that pissing on the Kim dynasty/Juche idea was what brought revleft together.:D

[Vanguard1917]

Pissing on bob avakian/the rcpusa, its what brings revleft together..

Sadly.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

I thought that pissing on the Kim dynasty/Juche idea was what brought revleft together.:D

I think I've seen one or two people on here defend them, so sadly it isn't.

[GoddessCleoLover]

WWP, the PSL and the Sparts still defend the DPRK as a "worker's state". A worker's state ruled by a dynasty that relies on its standing army to terrorize the workers.:rolleyes:

[prolcon]

So how's that Gramscian workers' state coming along?

[GoddessCleoLover]

Better no workers' state than a dynasty that starves and enslaves its workers while calling it socialism. This is why the socialist movement has shriveled to its present state. Workers used to support socialism until it was discredited by the dictatorships, starvation, labor camps etcetera. If we are to have any hope of reviving our movement we must first recognize reality and discontinue the denial. And if we do revive our movement its heroes will be the likes of Rosa Luxemburg, Antonio Gramsci, and Andres Nin, not odious characters like Stalin and the Kim dynasty.

[Grenzer]

If I ever met Bob Avakian I would tell him that his autobiography fucking sucks. Most of the Stalinoids around here could probably tell a more interesting story about how they fell in love with Stalin than he did. Literally about a third of his book is dedicated to pointless childhood shit that no one gives a fuck about.

I have no idea how someone so fucking boring and decidedly mediocre could become the centre of a party like that.

[GoddessCleoLover]

If I ever met Bob Avakian I would tell him that his autobiography fucking sucks. Most of the Stalinoids around here could probably tell a more interesting story about how they fell in love with Stalin than he did. Literally about a third of his book is dedicated to pointless childhood shit that no one gives a fuck about.

I have no idea how someone so fucking boring and decidedly mediocre could become the centre of a party like that.

So true. Avakian is much more like Stalin than Lenin. He seized control of the bureaucratic apparatus of the RCPUSA and has hung on to his shrinking "party" by controlling the apparatus, what little of it remains. Back in the 70s the RCPUSA was a small sect. Today they have shrunk into irrelevance.

[prolcon]

Settle down, Guy. I was just fucking with you.

That said, I disagree that socialism was "discredited" by the failure of socialistic movements to end world capitalism, and the current forms these movements tend to take are the result of these movements adapting to historical and present-day material conditions. To say that leftism has been discredited implies that it was discredited by phony Marxism, which I don't think exists; tangible conditions affect the character of world politics.

Where socialism has failed is that Marxism has been made into another commodity by capitalism. Paradoxically, it isn't a commodity that people consume by purchasing it or identifying with it in some way. Rather, Marxism is made into a commodity that people consume by rejecting it or standing against it in some way. Workers feel disfranchised, for good reason, and they're only able to identify with what they consume, rather than what they produce; thus a culture of consumerism in which product affiliation is personal identity. And I bring this up because Marxism isn't being approached correctly, neither by the working class at large nor by many leftists. It is a technology, to be sure, and it's to be consumed like one, to be put into practice. But capitalism has created Marxism-as-identity, consumed either through nominal affiliation or spiritual rejection. To say that past socialist failures have spoiled Marxism's image doesn't really give any credit to the immutable laws of the universe. All past revolutionary transformations of class and property have occurred despite starts and stops and shortcomings and outright failures. And I think we're seeing a growing trend among people: a growing willingness to acknowledge the contradictions of capitalism and to reject an individualist (consumerist) approach to social transformation in favor of a collective one. No leftist running around saying "But you guys! We think Stalin's bad, too!" has accomplished even one thing. Not even a trivial, mundane thing that was unrelated to his political work. He died a failure, and everyone was happy.

So yeah.

P.S. - Speaking of never accomplishing a single, damn thing in one's life, can we stop with the fucking Stalin-baiting? Honestly, we all talk about disunity within the left and then we just keep spitting bullshit like this.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Does anyone know how the current size of the RCP? Mike Ely says they're down to several dozen members (although they probably have a much larger "periphery" and front groups like World Can't Wait. Also, what exactly is Chairman Bob doing in France? My guess is that he's either writing masterpieces of historic materialism and hobnobbing with Alain Badiou and Slavoj Zizek or smoking lots of weed and getting bombed on cheap Moselle.

[prolcon]

... Also, what exactly is Chairman Bob doing in France? My guess is that he's ... smoking lots of weed and getting bombed on cheap Moselle.

I don't mean to be a contrary fuck, but this Avakian fellow sounds all right.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Prolcon; I remember back in the 70s when the M-Ls clearly outnumbered the Trotskyists, Anarchist, and all other tendencies combined. I am still active in the RW left and while the entire left is a shadow of what is was in the 70s, the M-Ls have nearly disappeared; the RCPUSA is a small fraction of what it was and the CPML and CWP have long since disappeared. I truly hope that the left re-emerges soon, I probably have much less time on this earth remaining than do you. But I am certain that if the left does revive, the revived left will not be M-L dominated, not for any complex theoretical reasons but because the M-L groups have dissipated beyond a point of no return.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Does anyone know how the current size of the RCP? Mike Ely says they're down to several dozen members (although they probably have a much larger "periphery" and front groups like World Can't Wait. Also, what exactly is Chairman Bob doing in France? My guess is that he's either writing masterpieces of historic materialism and hobnobbing with Alain Badiou and Slavoj Zizek or smoking lots of weed and getting bombed on cheap Moselle.

My best guess is that Mike Ely is correct. I live in Baltimore and back in the 70s the RCPUSA had 30 or 40 members or fellow travellers in the area and that number is down to a few, they have no standing presence here anymore.

Chairman Bob is almost 70 years old, so he is prolly collecting Social Security and trying to keep the RCPUSA from totally collapsing.

[GoddessCleoLover]

I don't mean to be a contrary fuck, but this Avakian fellow sounds all right.

I hope you are joking. What do you know about Avakian and/or the RCPUSA?

[prolcon]

It's not really a matter of the left arising as a network of Leninist organizations. It's about the left reemerging as a front unified by a sound and mutual method of revolutionary analysis. I fall to the Leninist end of Marxism, and I defend what I feel to be Stalin's accomplishments in terms of creating a more just world for workers. But I need to say that what I see here on RevLeft is that people don't really come here to understand one another; we come here to "win" and be "right." The fact is, even if I say I support something like socialism in one country, we probably have a fuckload more in common than you'd think. Particularly because no, I don't believe you can have a single state in which a stateless, classless stage of human civilization exists, but I believe that the accomplishments of historical revolutionary states deserved to be protected, even if they were only for a very brief time. There was no permanent, uninterrupted world revolution, and, while all states are doomed to be corrupted by capital, it was worth it to try to preserve what justices could be won for workers. We'll argue for days, weeks, months, years about what those justices were or whether they were won at all, but the point is that, when it comes time for revolution again, I will fight for the revolution's gains come what may, and I know you will too. The crisis of theory is the crisis of accepted history; in the end, the correct theory will present itself in the world. Engels and Marx weren't prophets, and their truths and others yet undiscovered are and always have been available to anyone at any time.

[prolcon]

I hope you are joking. What do you know about Avakian and/or the RCPUSA?

Do you seriously always need to feel superior to someone? Chill, motherfucker. I was joking, which you might've inferred from the quote I referenced, detailing Avakian's possible adventures in France getting absolutely trashed.

[Grenzer]

The only person who could say that Avakian sounds "all right" is someone who has never read his works. I own his autobiography, then his selected works. He often refers to capitalism as "capitalism-imperialism".

His book, BAsics is actually formatted like a bible so it can be quoted as such. AVAKIAN 3:14: Dogmatism is bad, mkay?

[GoddessCleoLover]

It's not really a matter of the left arising as a network of Leninist organizations. It's about the left reemerging as a front unified by a sound and mutual method of revolutionary analysis. I fall to the Leninist end of Marxism, and I defend what I feel to be Stalin's accomplishments in terms of creating a more just world for workers. But I need to say that what I see here on RevLeft is that people don't really come here to understand one another; we come here to "win" and be "right." The fact is, even if I say I support something like socialism in one country, we probably have a fuckload more in common than you'd think. Particularly because no, I don't believe you can have a single state in which a stateless, classless stage of human civilization exists, but I believe that the accomplishments of historical revolutionary states deserved to be protected, even if they were only for a very brief time. There was no permanent, uninterrupted world revolution, and, while all states are doomed to be corrupted by capital, it was worth it to try to preserve what justices could be won for workers. We'll argue for days, weeks, months, years about what those justices were or whether they were won at all, but the point is that, when it comes time for revolution again, I will fight for the revolution's gains come what may, and I know you will too. The crisis of theory is the crisis of accepted history; in the end, the correct theory will present itself in the world. Engels and Marx weren't prophets, and their truths and others yet undiscovered are and always have been available to anyone at any time.

With respect to the American Left my view is that things have dissipated to the point that an resurgence of our fortunes is probably dependent upon extrinsic events. I had hope that Occupy might spark something but it seems to have fizzled. One thing that i learned from Occupy is that in the event of a resurgence of activism I am quite certain there will be a protracted period of ideological instability. The multiplication of tendencies is not limited to Revleft, I was surprised at the diffuseness of "theory" from Occupiers. Some very backward quasi-libertarian tendencies are present and it will take years before anything coherent emerges IMO.

[prolcon]

The only person who could say that Avakian sounds "all right" is someone who has never read his works. I own his autobiography, then his selected works. He often refers to capitalism as "capitalism-imperialism".

So who did your humorectomy?

[GoddessCleoLover]

Having reread his post I now see that Prolcon was joking. I read your post without referencing your quote from Lenina. My bad.

[Sentinel]

Funniest thread in along while. A shame it came after the Chit Chat Awards, I would have nominated it as funniest of the year.

I concur with those who said that why not go to this type of meeting, but take it easy with the trolling for the sake of safety.

Even though it would be hilarious. :lol:

***

Topic split - sorry for wandering off the original discussion. No reason to ruin a good thread like this by discussing 'serious business' which has nothing to do with the OP.

Please continue discussing the effects of 2011 on class consciousness here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/class-consciousness-post-t176948/index.html).

[Leftsolidarity]

Im late to the party but I know people who have been in and associated with the RCP. Stay away from them as much as possible. I've heard their study groups (just like everything else they do) tend to just be circle jerks about the all glorious Avakin.

And just to jump on the opportunity, WWP's main national office is in NYC and I know the comrades there hold a lot of forums/talks/classes/etc. So if you're interested in a Marxist-Leninist group to just hang around or join, I suggest WWP.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

In regards to the RCP's past actions landing them an inscrutable place it is certainly true; in addition to what has already been mentioned they, in addition to having a very tight, top heavy information control structure, regularly attacked, at least in California, Trotskyist groups (See: Young Socialists Alliance) and banned homosexual members.

Not the most glorious history, especially when this was when they possessed a ideological narrative which was respectful (in comparison to their current one which is a cult).

[Leftsolidarity]

And from what I understand, their anti-queer stance has only changed in words and even that "change" is less than satisfactory.

I might be mistaken but I think they, along with FRSO, also opposed bus integration. Like I said, though, I might be thinking of something else.

[BOZG]

Is Bob Avakian going to be there himself? Or, is this just a meeting of RCPUSA members?

Is Bobbo not still in his self-imposed exile?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

And from what I understand, their anti-queer stance has only changed in words and even that "change" is less than satisfactory.

Not sure how thorough the change is but I believe homosexual members can openly affiliate.From what I know the downside of the change was that the Party leadership didn't admit to any wrong doing during those years when they were banned and has dodged the question since in an effort to appear more progressive than they were.

[thriller]

Not sure how thorough the change is but I believe homosexual members can openly affiliate.From what I know the downside of the change was that the Party leadership didn't admit to any wrong doing during those years when they were banned and has dodged the question since in an effort to appear more progressive than they were.

The Red Closet stories on Kasama have an article about LGBTQ members from the RCPUSA in the 70's and their experiences. They also mention BA's response to former anti-gay policies and ideas. He pretty much states that the "theory" was wrong so their policies were wrong, but the Party (BA and actual people) were not wrong.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

The Red Closet stories on Kasama have an article about LGBTQ members from the RCPUSA in the 70's and their experiences. They also mention BA's response to former anti-gay policies and ideas. He pretty much states that the "theory" was wrong so their policies were wrong, but the Party (BA and actual people) were not wrong.

Indeed one can. The Red Closet series is one of my favorites...

http://kasamaproject.org/2012/01/17/kasama-first-e-books-use-em-test-em-share-em/

[Leftsolidarity]

Is Bobbo not still in his self-imposed exile?

I think is self-imposed exile is over but I don't think he's in the States

[Sentinel]

Not sure how thorough the change is but I believe homosexual members can openly affiliate. From what I know the downside of the change was that the Party leadership didn't admit to any wrong doing during those years when they were banned and has dodged the question since in an effort to appear more progressive than they were.

What clowns. Sure, it's one thing to have been homophobic in the past, when it was more common. But I have much more respect for Stalinists like the Castro brothers who have at least had the guts to apologise, and attempt to make up for their previous errors in judgement on the gay issue.

If the RCP-USA hasn't done that, they have quite a way to go before they can ever be accepted as comrades by the radical left of today. Anyone apologising for homophobia, for instance, gets banned from this website in a second by consensus decision - always been so.

[GoddessCleoLover]

And from what I understand, their anti-queer stance has only changed in words and even that "change" is less than satisfactory.

I might be mistaken but I think they, along with FRSO, also opposed bus integration. Like I said, though, I might be thinking of something else.

The RCPUSA aligned themselves with the "anti-busing" ROAR crowd in Boston back in 1975. Their actions repulsed decent leftists back then. I thought it was the worst form of reactionary tailing imaginable at the time.

[black magick hustla]

PLEASE do NOT go and say Fuck Bob Avakian or ask RCPers about BA's location. The RCPUSA is a cult and goofing on their Great Leader could lead to serious consequences. They might view you as a threat to BA and hence a counter-revolutionary. Back in the 70s members of the RCPUSA used physical violence and weapons against their former comrades from the RWHq and the RSB. Since then they have become significantly more cultish and unless one is a masochist and hates life it might be a serious mistake to troll the RCPUSA.

idk i have seen rcpites before a kindergarden is more scary

[GoddessCleoLover]

idk i have seen rcpites before a kindergarden is more scary

Perhaps but what good can come from trolling a dying sect and provoking them by disparaging their Great Leader. Not my idea of a good time. YMMV. It's all good. Peace out.;)

[p0is0n]

Speaking of the RCP and cults, I remember seeing pictures of a secluded barracks in the middle of a forest. Outside the barracks, a soviet flag was resting on a pole. Inside the barracks, the walls were made up of pictures of Kim Jong Il, Kim Il Sung and vertical DPRK banners. Does anyone recognize this description? What the fuck was going on in those pics? For some reason I feel like the RCP was somehow connected to that, but I may very well be mistaken.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

^ I'd be interested to see that as well. Looks like someone needs the old man from the daily mail treatment.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Methinks you guys are referring to the Rural Peoples party.

http://ruralpeople.atspace.org


The RCPUSA is still urban-based and has some links albeit remotely with a more legitimate past, so I wouldn't put them in the same category as some isolated commune. Just to reiterate that IMO it is pointless and could possibly be dangerous to engage the RCPUSA with the sole intention of baiting them, ridiculing Chairman Bob and asking about his whereabouts (security culture and all).

[p0is0n]

Methinks you guys are referring to the Rural Peoples party.



The RCPUSA is still urban-based and has some links albeit remotely with a more legitimate past, so I wouldn't put them in the same category as some isolated commune. Just to reiterate that IMO it is pointless and could possibly be dangerous to engage the RCPUSA with the sole intention of baiting them, ridiculing Chairman Bob and asking about his whereabouts (security culture and all).

jackpot!

soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?f=134&t=48465

i142.photobucket.com/albums/r109/ruralmaoism/IMG_1750.jpg
freewebs.com/ruralmaoism/IMG_2193.JPG
freewebs.com/ruralmaoism/IMG_2199.JPG
freewebs.com/ruralmaoism/IMG_2200.JPG
freewebs.com/ruralmaoism/IMG_2204.JPG
reewebs.com/ruralmaoism/IMG_2209.JPG

jesus

[GoddessCleoLover]

jackpot!

soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?f=134&t=48465

i142.photobucket.com/albums/r109/ruralmaoism/IMG_1750.jpg
freewebs.com/ruralmaoism/IMG_2193.JPG
freewebs.com/ruralmaoism/IMG_2199.JPG
freewebs.com/ruralmaoism/IMG_2200.JPG
freewebs.com/ruralmaoism/IMG_2204.JPG
reewebs.com/ruralmaoism/IMG_2209.JPG

jesus

The thing about the Rural Peoples Party is that if you ever pay them a visit and they offer you liquid refreshment in the form of Kool-Aid it might be wise to reject the offer.

[kasama-rl]

Uh.... to GoddlessCLeoLover:

You write:

"All that I know for certain is that the RCPUSA had a track record back in the 7os that included beating their former comrades (RWHq) with baseball bats."

Well I was in the RCP in the 1970s. And this is news to me. (Meaning: I think you are mistaken and sloppy.) If you know this for certain -- then just give the details: When did this happen? How many people ("comrades" -- plural) were beaten with baseball bats?

There was one fight in the late 70s (1977?) after the RCP split, at the doorway of a communist youth conference in Cincinnati. (Some people wanted in, others wanted to keep them out.) One person was (i believe) hurt badly on the RWHq side (and some RWHq people were angry over it for years).

But were multiple people were hit with baseball bats? Was it (as you imply) part of a "trackrecord"? (Trackrecord of what? Beating comrades? Using baseball bats? What are you implying by that phrase?)

And of course, if one person was once badly hurt in one fight with RCP people in 1977, it hardly justifies your scary claims not to risk confronting them politically. And because it doesn't justify it.... well, that is why, i suspect, you chose to exaggerate. But (frankly) this RCP political trend have gotten much much older and much more tactically wimpy in many ways during this last decade (since 9/11).

Those of us from Kasama have been accused of being counterrevolutionary. We have been excluded from RCP events and bookstores. We have been accused of being police-like in increasingly absurd and shrill tones. But even in that hostile escalating babble, we have not seen or experienced physical threat.

And I don't think you should try to scare people by spreading rumors that are (at best) forty years old and wildly exaggerated.

* * * * * * * *

On a second point:

You write:

" They totally discredited themselves by attempting "uprisings" on May Day in 1980."

Hmmmm. Again: I was in the RCP in 1980. I participated in those May Day events (and planning) during 1980. There was a one-year campaign across the country for large militant actions on May First. But there were zero plans for "uprisings." I repeat: zero plans for uprisings.

And yet you put that word in quotes ("uprisings") implying that is what the RCP itself called for explicitly. This is factually untrue. And I would appreciate it if you acknowledged that it is untrue -- or else provide some documentation (which doesn't exist).


I wrote my own summation of May Day 1980, which is on the EROL archives:

http://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ncm-5/ely.htm

And anyone interested can read the full RCP's call to May Day 1980s in the EROL archives too, here are the relevant (and typically windy) paragraphs:
http://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ncm-5/rcp-may-day.htm

The actual text is this:

"Here today, at this May Day demonstration, 1979, the Revolutionary Communist Party calls for a one-year campaign to build a mass, revolutionary May Day next year–on May Day, Thursday, May 1st, 1980–which will sound the first powerful salvo of revolutionary mass struggle in the ’80s. This is not a call for a general strike–as yet our movement has not reached that level–but it is a call nonetheless for all people who have their minds set on revolution not to go to work or to school, and not to remain passive, on that day, but instead to take history into their hands, to act in the revolutionary tradition of May Day and more than that to take a bold, far-reaching step toward the future.

"On that day, one year from now, in major cities all over this country, class conscious workers, and together with them all others who burn with rage at oppression and with the desire to tear out oppression’s cause at its roots, will gather not only to proclaim this stand but to make it a living, driving force that will shake this country politically, on that day and afterward; that will echo and reverberate to the four corners of this country and beyond, and into every factory, neighborhood and home, in every region, city and town. On that day the enemy and the people alike will have no choice but to direct their attention to the awesome occurrence of revolutionary May Day, as thousands and thousands stride in unison through the streets, in step with the millions throughout the world fighting for the same goal, backs straight and eyes cast to the broadest and farthest horizons, holding high the standard of revolution, striking terror into the breast of the heartless rulers and quickening the pulse and arousing the imagination of millions more of the oppressed in this country, who that day will watch and listen but in the future will surge forward themselves to hold aloft this banner of revolution and finally carry it forward into battle and on to victory."

It is a call for marches of workers on May First, not uprisings.

Personally, I don't understand this approach to serious matters: Why say things that are untrue? What is the point? If you think their May Day 1980 plans were wrong, fine, criticize them. But why distort reality?

I am (as you probably know) quite sharp in my criticisms of today's RCP (for cultism and more). But I dont' distort their politics or history -- who can learn from the past if we lie about it?

My "9 Letters to our comrades" on the RCP's strengths and weaknesses: http://kasamaproject.org/kasama/4345-9-letters-to-our-comrades


* * * * * * * * *
Left solidarity wrote:


"I might be mistaken but I think they, along with FRSO, also opposed bus integration. Like I said, though, I might be thinking of something else."

This is confused at best. The whole New Communist Movement emerged out of the civil rights movement, the Black liberation struggle, and the antiwar movement. They all supported integration.

The RCP in particular emerged out of networks supporting the Black Panther Party -- they were all strong supporters of Black militancy, including being willing to defend the Panthers against police attacks.

So it is veryconfused to imply that these communists "opposed bus integratoin."

There was in the mid 1970s a particular bus plan in Boston that produced riots... and caused very deep conflicts between black and white working class communities. The RCP took a wrong position: They said that integration was good, but this plan was a trick to attack the people, and they urged "black and white unity" against the ruling class. But their writings and actions did not (clearly or centrally) focus on defending the black kids being bussed... and they got a lot of (justified and unjustified) criticism for that. But the problem was not that they opposed integration (obviously) but that they misread the situation in Boston, and adopted an embarassing attempt to defuse and redirect a violent clash among the people. They also opposed using federal troops against the people in this situation -- which is a decision worth debating too.

The RCP's boston group left the RCP shortly after the Boston busing controversy, and became part of the RWHq. And the wrong position was caused by a workerist view of 1970s politics -- that soon was concentrated within the RWHq. It would be odd (for that historical reason) to claim that FRSO "opposed bus integration" (since FRSO didn't exist in the 1970s, and not a single person or statement by either FRSO or the RCP has ever opposed integration.)

I assume this is an honest confusion and I note that you started with the words "I might be mistaken but I think they....." And I appreciate to have the chance to inject some of the historical details.

* * * * * * * * * * *

You also write:

"And from what I understand, their anti-queer stance has only changed in words and even that "change" is less than satisfactory."

I would be curious to hear more about that. From what I understand, the RCP now allows gay men and lesbians to be members, so that would be a change in more than words. However, I have also not yet heard any RCP supporter publicly describe themselves as gay (in print or whatever) -- so i'm curious how open people feel about expressing this.

I was the editor of a series of articles that exposed the RCP's practices toward gay people (expelling them, forcing them to pretend to be heterosexual, bombarding them with ideological criticisms for their sexuality, etc.)

If you are interested in knowing more you can look here:

http://kasamaproject.org/feminism-sexuality/3422-54opening-the-red-closet-door-then-a-demand-to-shut-it (we are fixing links on our new site, so I appologize if some of them don't work).

but you can get it in pamphlet form here: http://kasamaproject.org/history/3844-76kasama-pamphlet-out-of-the-red-closet
and the pamphlet form seems to be working well.

* * * * * ** * * * * * *

[kasama-rl]

The RCPUSA aligned themselves with the "anti-busing" ROAR crowd in Boston back in 1975.

While talking about distortion-to-the-point-of-falsehood.

ROAR was a semi-fascist group based in some of Boston's most notorious white racist enclaves.

The RCP (then a serious communist organization) made mistakes, but they (obviously) didn't "align themselves with ROAR."

It may be possible to find documentation that opponents of the RCP *claimed* they did this. But you won't find evidence that the RCP actually did (because they didn't).

BTW, at that same time, I was in the RCP in West Virginia, and we were fighting white racist groups among the miners during the so-called "Textbook Protest" (a wildcat strike opposing teaching of sex education and Black literature in the schools).

Anyone curious of what the RCP's politics on such matters was in 1974, you can take a look at my recollections of that:

http://kasamaproject.org/history/2190-22textbook-protests-when-the-poet-said-burn-our-churches

* * * * * * * * * *

Lenin once said to his opponents "Lie if you have to, but don't overdo it."

:grin:

[Luís Henrique]

"I certainly hope so — we’ve been working very hard to create one."

And he wasn't being sarcastic...

Luís Henrique

[kasama-rl]

I would go just to see them in person. Observe how they work and communicate and draw your own conclusions. Sounds like a interesting activity, everything considered. Be sure to write up a report back so we all know how it went.

I realize that much of the joking about baiting the RCP is just that: joking.

And I think TGU (above) basically gets it right: It is worth checking out different political currents, learning from them, and sharing what you experience.

And I think it would be strange to say there is nothing to learn, or something to fear, by checking out various groups (including obviously the RCP).

On the question of security culture:

I think it is important for the left (in general) and revolutionaries (in particular) to start to develop a serious security culture that suits our times. Since 9/11 the government has spent billions on spying and infiltration systems, and we are starting to see the serious (poisoned) fruit of this: agent provocateurs and infiltrators have been snagging naive people in entrapment tactics. So there is a need to be alert.

Part of that is respecting the security decisions of various political groups. In other words, if a group has chosen to keep something secret (a document, identities of members, location of leaders) we should respect that. Even if we have serious disagreements with that group.

This is the only way to have a radical left that is not *wide open* to hostile forces.

So I would seriously discourage people from joking about the location of Avakian. First: It is really no one's business. Second, we don't want a left culture that casually destroys its own ability to keep secrets.

In other words, lets have a culture of mutual respect and substantive criticism on the left: Where we disagree or agree on major matters, and we leave the snarky pettiness aside.

Also, on the RCP: It is now decrepit, and an embarassment. Avakian has made himself into a joke by inventing a hyped and delusional cloak of grandiosity. But, the RCP was a far more serious and interesting group for most of its life.

So there is a lesson here, both about choices that people should not make (i.e. the RCP is a negative lesson recently), but also about experiences we can and should learn from (i.e. the earlier RCP as a positive lesson).