Do I strike you guys as a white supremacist?

[Questionable]

I certainly didn't think so, but after a recent debate with some Maoists it appears I am.

You see, I was a frequent poster in this place called http://www.reddit.com/r/communism. I was attracted to it because of its stern policies against sectarianism, which I saw as a big step above Revleft. The place was predominately Maoist, and I'm not a Maoist, but they welcomed all communists so I stepped aboard.

Then the issue of racism within the class came up, and it turns out that a lot of people there follow the third-worldist line that the interests of the white working class is completely intertwined with the bourgeoisie. Carefully and politely while doing lots of research, I argued against this notion in a few places.

http://www.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/14e7e1/pacifism_is_racist/c7cdcyp
http://rcomrades.blogspot.com/2012/12/marxism-and-oppression.html#comment-form

I said things along these lines:

Let me be clear that I am not trying to ignore that prejudices exist within the working class. There are white workers who buy into racism, they are male workers who buy into sexism and patriarchy, and there are US workers who buy into nationalism. But to say that they objectively benefit from holding these attitudes doesn't make much sense to me. Class is an economic relationship, not a social attitude. A white worker who believes he's superior to black workers is still subject to all the ebbs and flows of capital that will lead to his destruction. It's definitely true that certain sections of the working class are exposed to more prejudice than the others, but these are subjective differences, and even if a male worker believes he's better than women, this comfort is merely psychological.


Well your post seemed to suggest a ton of animosity towards white workers, and I was trying to point out that a more nuanced view is required. Although non-white workers are often hit harder, that doesn't say much more than the people on the highest level of a sinking ship are going to stay alive longer. And this doesn't mean I don't acknowledge divisions within the working class because I'd have to be oblivious to argue such a thing, but I disagree that white workers are materially different than non-whites because of this.

And here are some of the brilliant responses generated by the community:


Nah, you're just a racist, bro. You can try and use bad social investigation to defend your white power politics, but that's what they are. White workers don't benefit from racism, what a joke! I'll go to my job tomorrow and watch the minimum wage guys all drive out to job sites, and I will note that they are ALL Latino and black (no seriously, ALL you motherfucker. One hundred fucking percent.) while all us white people in the office make multiples of that. As I bicycle home from work, I will notice that 95% of the people with nice bicycles on the trail and who wear racing kits are white, but that 95%, (yeah 95% you racist piece of shit) pf workers riding shitty bikes in old tshirts or contractor shirts are latino or black. And then, since I'm not a motherfucker, I won't come home and try to convince other radicals that white ain't no material thing. But you, you are a motherfucker. Fuck you. I think I know who you are on reddit, and I've asked you nicely to open your eyes before, about men and non-men, and you refused. In fact you lazily googled to try and find reactionary shit to support your nonsense. I have no more patience for you. You are obviously a two faced evil fuck who thinks a romanticized imaginary working class is more important than the real working class. I have no time for people like you, people who use radical theory to justify white power structures. You literally make me sick. Bro.


Yeah LH needs to be fucking banned from here and the subreddit. Remember that this is a person who when faced with a very cogent argument for third worldism, freaked out and went to RevLeft to seek counter arguments.

I mean, maybe I've totally misunderstood my very own viewpoint, but did I say anything that suggested I was racist? Did I not acknolwedge racism within the working class but merely denied it was within their material interests? And those are just a few of my messages, I can copy+paste many more where I admitted racism existed but that the popular analysis of r/communism was wrong. I also found it quite funny that my argument is apparently invalid because I sought help from Revleft a couple times.

So after being insulted, I decided I didn't care much for the place anymore, and posted a rather lengthy message explaining why:

http://www.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/14gcc9/my_resignation/

I then deleted my account afterwards, knowing I would be banned (I was already temporarily banned once for not believing that white people were evil parasites). True to form, my post was filled with spam about how I was secretly a white supremacist sent from Revleft to spread false ideas, how I've always been unprincipled and flip-flopped (Which is fucking rich because I've fought against third-worldist crap on the forum for months consistently), and how I was overall a big fat smelly rascist. This one comment particularly brought me joy:


I do not believe that LeonHotsky is unacquainted with these statistics, any more than he is unacquainted with the actual statistics on women and labor. When he and I discussed that on this forum, I consistently demanded that he look to daily life to see the realities of patriarchy, and he fell back on "prove this to me with data." I refused, because this is an old rightist demand. Anyone can go get the data, it's ubiquitous. I was curious what he would do. He went and got a very poor piece of data that he thought supported his misogynistic position. I ignored it because it didn't matter. I wanted to see if he was honest or not. When he grabbed that data, I realized he wasn't honest on that subject, and that his political agenda went beyond mere ignorance. This is the reason why, in my attack on the blog, I point to my own lived experience on this issue. Because the data, the statistics, the quantified reality of race and value, this is known. This is not up for debate. But communists also must acknowledge the real that is in front of them all the time. That is where we actually make politics happen, we don't do it with data alone. But misogynists and racists love to fight with data. It's like climate change deniers - all they think they need is to find the right data to prop up the myth.

To summarize, this person is basically saying that data that contradicts the Maoist viewpoint is incorrect and should be ignored. It's like a fucking cult or some shit. And you know what's hilarious? In the debate he is referring, HE'S THE ONE THAT TOLD ME TO GOOGLE THE STATISTICS ON FEMALE LABOR. IT WAS ONLY AFTER I FOUND INFORMATION PROVING HIM WRONG THAT HE CAME UP WITH THIS "PROOF FOR YOUR ARGUMENT IS BOURGEOIS" SHIT." And also, what's this shit about right-wingers being fans of data? If I'm not mistaken, fascists are usually the ones telling their followers to ignore scientific evidence and focus on their beliefs. I believe it's called irrationalism. Funnily enough when I made another post calling this guy out for his bullshit, he immediately deleted it.

Anyway, I doubt that most people here give a shit, but this both pissed me off and amused me, so I felt like sharing, plus there's the chance that some independent third-parties could tell me if I was debating worth a shit. I guess the Maoists will make fun of me again for posting on Revleft, but if they can delete all my posts and tell lies about me, I guess I can come here and make fun of their bullshit.

[Ostrinski]

MTWs gonna MTW

[GoddessCleoLover]

That one dude strikes me as too extreme to even be a member of the RCPUSA.:D

Back in the day there was a term "Mickey Maoist" that applies to those folks. The Mickey Maoist then and apparently today as well has no ability to relate to real people, rather the MM is fascinated by The Little Red Book, the Eight Model Revolutionary Operas, etcetera etcetera. If I were the Lord High Executioner I would sentence anyone guilty of Mickey Maoism to be sentenced to a "struggle session" with Cultural Revolution victims who who be free to "speak bitterness" to the Mickey Maoist in question.:D

[Questionable]

Oh, and another guy from the forum PMed me and said my only options were to either come back and beg for forgiveness or wait until everyone forgets and re-enter with "honest intentions."

He also got mad at me for posting on Revleft again. Well, this one's to you, buddy.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

1) R/Communism is primarily Marxist-Leninist with a small Trotskyite contingency, so don't use this as an opportunity to slander my tendency.

2)I see you quoted that thread where you were denounced, however you were very selective in your quote. Let's look at the entire thing shall we?

"So why did I attack LeonHotsky on the blog like that?
After reading LeonHotsky's alternate nick's arguments on the blog, I realized that LeonHotsky has been practicing a form of entryism in this space. Contra his claims here, he alters the specifics of his line on the question of race and colonialism depending on the forum where he is arguing. After reviewing his comments on the blog, some things I had seen on revleft, and his general line here, I came to believe that he has been dishonest about his actual beliefs when in discussions on this subject on /r/communism. He presents one face to us, one face to revleft, and another to the rcomrades blog. This is deceptive and unprincipled, even when the purpose is a good one. But his purpose is not a good one. No person who reviews the basic facts of race and income, race and wealth, race and employment, or race and imprisonment in the United States could ever honestly come to the conclusion that no material benfit accrues to white people because of racism. To do so is to deny the existence of white power sturctures at all - because we are Marxists. No materialism, no existence. LeonHotsky gets that. He isn't stupid, he knows what he is asserting, and he knows the theoretical and organizational outcomes of what he is asserting. To claim that there is merely a "psychological benefit" is nonsense. It's nonsense statistically and it's nonsense as a lived daily reality.
I do not believe that LeonHotsky is unacquainted with these statistics, any more than he is unacquainted with the actual statistics on women and labor. When he and I discussed that on this forum, I consistently demanded that he look to daily life to see the realities of patriarchy, and he fell back on "prove this to me with data." I refused, because this is an old rightist demand. Anyone can go get the data, it's ubiquitous. I was curious what he would do. He went and got a very poor piece of data that he thought supported his misogynistic position. I ignored it because it didn't matter. I wanted to see if he was honest or not. When he grabbed that data, I realized he wasn't honest on that subject, and that his political agenda went beyond mere ignorance. This is the reason why, in my attack on the blog, I point to my own lived experience on this issue. Because the data, the statistics, the quantified reality of race and value, this is known. This is not up for debate. But communists also must acknowledge the real that is in front of them all the time. That is where we actually make politics happen, we don't do it with data alone. But misogynists and racists love to fight with data. It's like climate change deniers - all they think they need is to find the right data to prop up the myth.
I and others here have also given LeonHotsky several things to read on this subject, and he does not seem to have done so, so I also grew skeptical of his constant claim that he was interested in learning. I don't think he is at all, I think he is interested in teaching some bad shit.
The final evidence of his central dishonesty is his constant labeling of people who are not third worldist as third worldist. I, personally, am not a third worldist. Neither is JMP or 98% of the mao heads on this forum. But neither do I think it is a slander to be used against enemies, as he does (third worldists do not hate white people, are not functioning out of white guilt, are serious people with serious ideas who have a much more realistic assessment of American society than LeonHostsky's dishonest assertions). I and others here used to think that LeonHotsky called everyone who understood how race works with class in the US a third worldist out of ignorance. I now believe he does it for very studied political reasons. His intention is to try and marginalize anyone who takes white power structures seriously by labeling them as something he thinks is ridiculous on its face. Think about that when you see how he used to speak to third worldists here as well, and you can see his dishonesty front and center.
LeonHotsky is a Marxist. I expect he's read Capital, and he has a grasp of Marxist theory. He's also a racist who will always side against the colonized when discussing theory. It doesn't really matter whether he understands that his idealist claims about race that he demonstrates even in this post here are pretty shitty Marxism, or whether he does know and doesn't care. The result is the same old left in form, right in content that one finds all over the US left. Happily it's a dying breed.
TLDR: LeonHotsky is a dishonest racist entryist."



But of course, this isn't the problem. The problem is that you decided to insult another website just because they banned you. Not very mature comrade. And topping it off with a bad Maoist joke? You seem to be coming off as a bruised child who is licking his wounds

[Questionable]

1) R/Communism is primarily Marxist-Leninist with a small Trotskyite contingency, so don't use this as an opportunity to slander other people's tendencies.

I see you quoted that thread where you were denounced, however you were very selective in your quote. Let's look at the entire thing shall we?

"So why did I attack LeonHotsky on the blog like that?
After reading LeonHotsky's alternate nick's arguments on the blog, I realized that LeonHotsky has been practicing a form of entryism in this space. Contra his claims here, he alters the specifics of his line on the question of race and colonialism depending on the forum where he is arguing. After reviewing his comments on the blog, some things I had seen on revleft, and his general line here, I came to believe that he has been dishonest about his actual beliefs when in discussions on this subject on /r/communism. He presents one face to us, one face to revleft, and another to the rcomrades blog. This is deceptive and unprincipled, even when the purpose is a good one. But his purpose is not a good one. No person who reviews the basic facts of race and income, race and wealth, race and employment, or race and imprisonment in the United States could ever honestly come to the conclusion that no material benfit accrues to white people because of racism. To do so is to deny the existence of white power sturctures at all - because we are Marxists. No materialism, no existence. LeonHotsky gets that. He isn't stupid, he knows what he is asserting, and he knows the theoretical and organizational outcomes of what he is asserting. To claim that there is merely a "psychological benefit" is nonsense. It's nonsense statistically and it's nonsense as a lived daily reality.
I do not believe that LeonHotsky is unacquainted with these statistics, any more than he is unacquainted with the actual statistics on women and labor. When he and I discussed that on this forum, I consistently demanded that he look to daily life to see the realities of patriarchy, and he fell back on "prove this to me with data." I refused, because this is an old rightist demand. Anyone can go get the data, it's ubiquitous. I was curious what he would do. He went and got a very poor piece of data that he thought supported his misogynistic position. I ignored it because it didn't matter. I wanted to see if he was honest or not. When he grabbed that data, I realized he wasn't honest on that subject, and that his political agenda went beyond mere ignorance. This is the reason why, in my attack on the blog, I point to my own lived experience on this issue. Because the data, the statistics, the quantified reality of race and value, this is known. This is not up for debate. But communists also must acknowledge the real that is in front of them all the time. That is where we actually make politics happen, we don't do it with data alone. But misogynists and racists love to fight with data. It's like climate change deniers - all they think they need is to find the right data to prop up the myth.
I and others here have also given LeonHotsky several things to read on this subject, and he does not seem to have done so, so I also grew skeptical of his constant claim that he was interested in learning. I don't think he is at all, I think he is interested in teaching some bad shit.
The final evidence of his central dishonesty is his constant labeling of people who are not third worldist as third worldist. I, personally, am not a third worldist. Neither is JMP or 98% of the mao heads on this forum. But neither do I think it is a slander to be used against enemies, as he does (third worldists do not hate white people, are not functioning out of white guilt, are serious people with serious ideas who have a much more realistic assessment of American society than LeonHostsky's dishonest assertions). I and others here used to think that LeonHotsky called everyone who understood how race works with class in the US a third worldist out of ignorance. I now believe he does it for very studied political reasons. His intention is to try and marginalize anyone who takes white power structures seriously by labeling them as something he thinks is ridiculous on its face. Think about that when you see how he used to speak to third worldists here as well, and you can see his dishonesty front and center.
LeonHotsky is a Marxist. I expect he's read Capital, and he has a grasp of Marxist theory. He's also a racist who will always side against the colonized when discussing theory. It doesn't really matter whether he understands that his idealist claims about race that he demonstrates even in this post here are pretty shitty Marxism, or whether he does know and doesn't care. The result is the same old left in form, right in content that one finds all over the US left. Happily it's a dying breed.
TLDR: LeonHotsky is a dishonest racist entryist."



But of course, this isn't the problem. The problem is that you decided to insult another website just because they banned you. Not very mature comrade.

Well it would be kind of stupid of me to select specific quotes and then link to the entirety of said post don't you think? The whole post is basically calling me a misogynistic racist, and since EVERYONE can read my posts for themselves, it would be kind of silly if I actually really was a misogynistic racist and was trying to gather support. But if you see anything in my posts that is racist, I welcome you to quote it and I will correct you.

And if you didn't have your head up your ass you would have realized that I willingly left the site, as I announced in the post. So no, being banned doesn't really bug me because I completely expected to be banned. What bugs me is that people made up total lies about how I was a white supremacist when I said absolutely nothing of the sort. If it hadn't been for that, I would have gladly let this whole thing blow over.

Also the "proof is right-wing" is still shit, no matter what weird problem you seem to have with me posting this.

[xvzc]

Oh, and another guy from the forum PMed me and said my only options were to either come back and beg for forgiveness or wait until everyone forgets and re-enter with "honest intentions."

He also got mad at me for posting on Revleft again. Well, this one's to you, buddy.

Yeah... I was replying to a PM that you had sent to me, and nowhere did I write that you should "beg for forgiveness" but that you should seriously analyze your position and self-criticize, which I believe is a principled thing to do in your position.

I read and skimmed over that PM a few times to confirm this and, no, I did not get mad at you for posting on RevLeft "again" (?).

Really, you are slumping to new lows in this whole fiasco. And spilling this over to another forum? Come on ... :confused:

[Comrade Samuel]

MTWs gonna MTW

Jesus H Christ this joke is terrible but yeah,Maoist third worldists are nuttyer than squirrel poop.

To be be honest r/ communism just doesent seem as diverse as revleft, honestly there just never seems to be disagreements around there, someone says something and then it's 3 pages of comments reading "I absolutely agree". At least usually- you appear to have rubbed somebody the wrong way.

[Avanti]

but they do

objectively

benefit

from these conditions

maybe not as

much as the bourgeoisie

but they certainly

have an interest

in keeping

their privileges

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Racism cuts both ways. While they make different assumptions about people with different skin tones, and have different stereotypes for each, people of any skin tone are not made of assumptions and stereotypes. A similar kind of situation exists with regards to sexism and patriarchy.

Isn't saying "whites are all/inherently racist" a racist statement in itself?

I don't consider the fact that those who don't share my pale skin tone are getting their heads stepped on more often to be a "benefit". Why should I?

[DDR]

I think this is a snow flake that has turned into a big snow ball. The issue, IMO, is simplier than that. It's just that some leftist get too focus only in the main opression (Capital vs. Labour) but there's tons of opressions (sexual, gender, national, race, etc.) that are left behind, like hoping that with socialism/communism all that will eveporate into thin air. But, at least that's my view on the issue, we should fight oprssion in every form that it takes in every way we can, by any means possible, unless we want them to remain in the new society(ies) we aim to build.

So as I say, you are not a WN, nor I think anyone consideres you one, just a little bit unworried about other forms of the struggle.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

I actually saw this unfold and unsubscribed from /r/communism as a result. I knew it was predominantly Maoist before, which never bothered me, but the third-worldism that's come out of the woodwork recently is pretty horrible. But then, maybe I just never noticed the third-worldist crap before because it wasn't one of my frequent stops on reddit.

[hetz]

>reddit

MTW is a white suburban middle-class "thing" that exists only on the Internet.

[Questionable]

I actually saw this unfold and unsubscribed from /r/communism as a result. I knew it was predominantly Maoist before, which never bothered me, but the third-worldism that's come out of the woodwork recently is pretty horrible. But then, maybe I just never noticed the third-worldist crap before because it wasn't one of my frequent stops on reddit.

Well I am glad I reached out to one person at least. All bad feelings aside Im disappointed that everyone now hates me because stats for the subreddit showed I was one of the top ten contributors, and I was always very polite up until this drama, so it someone baffles me that they are saying I am a racist sexist when I posted countless links and made lengthy posts against those subjects. Oh well, internet shit happens.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Not everyone hates you. It is typical of keyboard Commies to toss around accusations of racism and sexism. May be best to ignore their bullshit. If you made a mistake it may have been in bringing that controversy into this forum. Don't worry about it. We all live and learn.

[Rafiq]

Stay off reddit and the problem's solved.

[Drosophila]

Reddit communism kind of sucks. They try to be "Pan-Leftist" and "non-sectarian," but this really just results in their support of every left figure/movement that ever existed (hence the overuse of Maoist propaganda, Stalin photos, etc.)

[Questionable]

Not everyone hates you. It is typical of keyboard Commies to toss around accusations of racism and sexism. May be best to ignore their bullshit. If you made a mistake it may have been in bringing that controversy into this forum. Don't worry about it. We all live and learn.

Yeah, in retrospect I'll admit I was pissed that the Maoists were making up total lies about me so they could dodge my actual arguments and since I was banned this thread was the only way I could debunk that slander, but I've also received some genuine feedback on how I carried out my debates and that's good.

I think I know how Trotsky felt after he was exiled now.


Reddit communism kind of sucks. They try to be "Pan-Leftist" and "non-sectarian," but this really just results in their support of every left figure/movement that ever existed (hence the overuse of Maoist propaganda, Stalin photos, etc.)

Their harsh moderation policy worked at first as a way of keeping liberals and trolls out, but when they began to regulate the communist views of members themselves the only natural conclusion is that the views of the moderation team would be upheld at their discretion. Throughout this whole thing no one has still been able to directly quote me or prove that I am a white supremacist, they just bring up "evidence" that is on par with medieval inquisitions. I predict I'm the first of many when it comes to preserving ideological unity.


To be be honest r/ communism just doesent seem as diverse as revleft, honestly there just never seems to be disagreements around there, someone says something and then it's 3 pages of comments reading "I absolutely agree". At least usually- you appear to have rubbed somebody the wrong way.

Yeah, I've known it was becoming a circlejerk for a while and thought I could take the role of providing the alternative perspective, but that was based on the assumption that people wouldn't just ignore my arguments and call me a racist.

[Geiseric]

but they do

objectively

benefit

from these conditions

maybe not as

much as the bourgeoisie

but they certainly

have an interest

in keeping

their privileges

I'm poor and white so shove it.

[Igor]

I'm poor and white so shove it.

white privilege doesn't mean things will be always be nice and all great for white people, they just overall have a notably better chance of that happening. you got dealt a shit hand, that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that in the united states, jails are full of non-whites and institutions of power are full of white people. it's not exactly a coincidence.

[kashkin]

That is the case but to say that white workers and white capitalists work together and what benefits one benefits the other is ludicrous.

[GoddessCleoLover]

MTW gonna MTW.

[black magick hustla]

its your fault for posting in fucking reddit

[hetz]

/thread

[Questionable]

its your fault for posting in fucking reddit

In its early days I found /r/communism to be superior to Revleft in a few ways, namely the "Stalin Clause" which removed any bitter sectarianism (You could still critique other tendencies just not post a one-liner and then leave). But now the mod team is ironically breaking their own rule by deciding who's really a communist and who's "left in form, right in content." After my banning they've already posted a topic pledging to remove even more "pseudo-leftists" and "right-wing elements" and when people spoke against this they were subsequently banned. I think the forum is just going to get smaller and smaller until only it's just r/Maoism.

[GoddessCleoLover]

In its early days I found /r/communism to be superior to Revleft in a few ways, namely the "Stalin Clause" which removed any bitter sectarianism (You could still critique other tendencies just not post a one-liner and then leave). But now the mod team is ironically breaking their own rule by deciding who's really a communist and who's "left in form, right in content." After my banning they've already posted a topic pledging to remove even more "pseudo-leftists" and "right-wing elements" and when people spoke against this they were subsequently banned. I think the forum is just going to get smaller and smaller until only it's just r/Maoism.

Back in the 70s we used to call those type of folks "Mickey Maoists".

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

So, yeah, this forum seems real fucking dumb, I'm with Rafiq/BMH.