Syrian government prepares to use chemical weapons

[Ostrinski]

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/05/15706380-syria-loads-chemical-weapons-into-bombs-military-awaits-assads-order


The Syrian military is prepared to use chemical weapons against its own people and is awaiting final orders from President Bashar Assad, U.S. officials told NBC News on Wednesday.
Andrea Mitchell, Robert Windrem, Courtney Kube and Catherine Chomiak of NBC News contributed to this report. Follow M. Alex Johnson on Twitter (http://twitter.com/#%21/MAlexJohnson) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/MAlexJohnson).


The military has loaded the precursor chemicals for sarin, a deadly nerve gas, into aerial bombs that could be dropped onto the Syrian people from dozens of fighter-bombers, the officials said.
As recently as Tuesday, officials had said there was as yet no evidence that the process of mixing the "precursor" chemicals had begun. But Wednesday, they said their worst fears had been confirmed: The nerve agents were locked and loaded inside the bombs.
Sarin is an extraordinarily lethal agent. Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's forces killed 5,000 Kurds with a single sarin attack on Halabja in 1988.
Advertise (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31066137/media-kit/) | AdChoices (http://g.msn.com/AIPRIV/en-us)







U.S. officials stressed that as of now, the sarin bombs hadn't been loaded onto planes and that Assad hadn't issued a final order to use them. But if he does, one of the officials said, "there's little the outside world can do to stop it."
Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton reiterated U.S. warnings to Assad not to use chemical weapons, saying he would be crossing "a red line" if he did so.
Speaking Wednesday at NATO headquarters in Brussels, Clinton said the Syrian government was on the brink of collapse, raising the prospect that "an increasingly desperate Assad regime" might turn to chemical weapons or that the banned weapons could fall into other hands.

Kevin Lamarque / AFP - Getty Images
Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, speaking Wednesday at NATO headquarters in Brussels, said the fall of Syrian President Bashar Assad's government was "inevitable."


"Ultimately, what we should be thinking about is a political transition in Syria and one that should start as soon as possible," Clinton said. "We believe their fall is inevitable. It is just a question of how many people have to die before that occurs."
Aides told NBC News that Clinton was expected next week to officially recognize the main opposition movement, the National Coalition of Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces, with which she is scheduled to meet in Morocco. Britain, France, Turkey and some key Arab leaders have already recognized the opposition.
Fighting intensified Wednesday in the 21-month civil war, which has left 40,000 people dead. The U.N. withdrew its personnel from Damascus, saying conditions were too dangerous.
The government said this week that it wouldn't use chemical weapons on its own people after President Barack Obama warned that doing so would be "totally unacceptable."
<br>

But U.S. officials said this week that the government had ordered its Chemical Weapons Corps to "be prepared," which Washington interpreted as a directive to begin bringing together the components needed to weaponize Syria's chemical stockpiles.
That process would involve mixing "precursor" chemicals for the deadly nerve gas sarin, which could be used in artillery shells, U.S. officials told NBC News, stressing that there was no evidence that process had as yet begun.
Watch World News videos on NBCNews.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/21426473)
U.S. officials had long believed that the Syrian government was stockpiling the banned chemical weapons before it acknowledged possessing them this summer.
NBC News reported in July (http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/27/12970606-syria-regime-reeling-armed-to-the-teeth-with-chemical-weapons?lite) that U.S. intelligence agencies believed that in addition to sarin, Syria had access to tabun, a chemical nerve agent, as well as traditional chemical weapons like mustard gas and hydrogen cyanide.
Officials told NBC News at the time that the Syrian government was moving the outlawed weapons around the country, leaving foreign intelligence agencies unsure where they might end up.
Syria is one of only seven nations that hasn't ratified the 1992 Chemical Weapons Convention, the arms control agreement that outlaws the production, stockpiling and use of such weapons.
Bombshells filled with chemicals can be carried by Syrian Air Force fighter-bombers, in particular Sukhoi-22/20, MiG-23 and Sukhoi-24 aircraft. In addition, some reports indicate that unguided short-range Frog-7 artillery rockets may be capable of carrying chemical payloads.
In terms of longer-range delivery systems, Syria has a few dozen SS-21 ballistic missiles with a maximum range of 72 miles; 200 Scud-Bs, with a maximum range of 180 miles; and 60 to 120 Scud-Cs, with a maximum range of 300 miles, all of which are mobile and are capable of carrying chemical weapons, according U.S. intelligence officials.
Yeah! Death to the agents of imperialism!


Wait, no - it's bourgeois propaganda!

[DDR]

I'll belive it when I see it.

[Zealot]

Does anyone really believe this? It's only a matter of time before they start talking about having to uncover secret nuclear weapons hiding somewhere in Syria. And to be frank, everyone outside of America is getting bored of the WMD excuse. At least the global terrorist conspiracy was more exciting. A network of invisible martian colonialists would be an even better idea though.

[Ostrinski]

I'll belive it when I see it.When they drop one on your doorstep?

[Ostrinski]

*sigh* anti-imps gonna anti-imp I suppose

[Ostrinski]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/world/middleeast/chemical-weapons-wont-be-used-in-rebellion-syria-says.html?_r=0

They admitted over the summer to having them.

[DDR]

When they drop one on your doorstep?

No, really, when i see solid evidence of this claims (there has been roumors of this for almost half a year) i will shut the hell up. Untill then I'll remain skeptical.

[Prometeo liberado]

Wake me up when......:lol:

[Let's Get Free]

Assad is a lot of things but he's not stupid, he won't use them...unless he thinks he's got no option left and odds are Putin will take action himself before that.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

U.S. officials told NBC News on Wednesday
Well, if the US government said so to the bourgeois media, it must be true!

[Ostrinski]

No, really, when i see solid evidence of this claims (there has been roumors of this for almost half a year) i will shut the hell up. Untill then I'll remain skeptical.Why would they admit to having them if they didn't have them :confused:? It's not to scare off foreign aggression, that's for sure. NATO isn't afraid of chemical weapons.

[Ostrinski]

Well, if the US government said so to the bourgeois media, it must be true!Do you read?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Do you read?
Do you? "U.S. officials" seems to be the main source for the article.

[Ostrinski]

Do you? "U.S. officials" seems to be the main source for the article.They admitted to having them. I don't see how you people can can immediately dismiss the reality of this as propaganda when the Syrian government has admitted to having weapons of this kind.

[DDR]

Why would they admit to having them if they didn't have them :confused:? It's not to scare off foreign aggression, that's for sure. NATO isn't afraid of chemical weapons.

I don't doubt that they have it, what i doubt is that he will use them. As Gladiator pointed out Assad isn't kind of maniac. The impact of using those will cause him more warm than good, he will have more people againt him, and will buy him a first row seat to his own trial in Den Haag. So I don't think that he's gonna use em, may be in a ultimate fuck you scenario, gassing the whole Damascus himself included, but it's plain nonsense.

Putin on the oder hand, will bomb the fuck of Syria if it necessary to maintain the Russian interests in that country and the security of the last Russian Mediterranian naval base, Tarsis. But that's another stuff.

[Jack]

This is obviously bullshit, the Syrian government is winning the war, all of a sudden reports come out that they're preparing to use chemical weapons when things stop going the West's way. If they really had a desire to use chemical weapons they would've used them back in March, not when they have the terrorists pinned down in Aleppo and almost entirely eliminated.


*sigh* anti-imps gonna anti-imp I suppose

Imperialist apologists gonna sensationalize.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

They admitted to having them. I don't see how you people can can immediately dismiss the reality of this as propaganda when the Syrian government has admitted to having weapons of this kind.
I'm skeptical of anything the US government claims about other governments that it opposes.

[TheOther]

You know even many progressive alternative news shows like The Big Picture show of Thom Hartmann, are beating the drums of wars and labeling the Syrian President as a "dictator", many many times. I know that Bashar Al-Assad is not a socialist president. But, however if the pro-war, imperialist mainstream liberal left of the USA calls Bashar Al-Assad a "dictator", how come they don't call Peña Nieto, a dictator who won elections with a massive vote fraud.

I suspect that Thom Hartmann takes a paycheck from The Democratic Party


uIuudrLyPgk


.




http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/05/15706380-syria-loads-chemical-weapons-into-bombs-military-awaits-assads-order


The Syrian military is prepared to use chemical weapons against its own people and is awaiting final orders from President Bashar Assad, U.S. officials told NBC News on Wednesday.
Andrea Mitchell, Robert Windrem, Courtney Kube and Catherine Chomiak of NBC News contributed to this report. Follow M. Alex Johnson on Twitter (http://twitter.com/#%21/MAlexJohnson) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/MAlexJohnson).


The military has loaded the precursor chemicals for sarin, a deadly nerve gas, into aerial bombs that could be dropped onto the Syrian people from dozens of fighter-bombers, the officials said.
As recently as Tuesday, officials had said there was as yet no evidence that the process of mixing the "precursor" chemicals had begun. But Wednesday, they said their worst fears had been confirmed: The nerve agents were locked and loaded inside the bombs.
Sarin is an extraordinarily lethal agent. Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's forces killed 5,000 Kurds with a single sarin attack on Halabja in 1988.
Advertise (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31066137/media-kit/) | AdChoices (http://g.msn.com/AIPRIV/en-us)







U.S. officials stressed that as of now, the sarin bombs hadn't been loaded onto planes and that Assad hadn't issued a final order to use them. But if he does, one of the officials said, "there's little the outside world can do to stop it."
Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton reiterated U.S. warnings to Assad not to use chemical weapons, saying he would be crossing "a red line" if he did so.
Speaking Wednesday at NATO headquarters in Brussels, Clinton said the Syrian government was on the brink of collapse, raising the prospect that "an increasingly desperate Assad regime" might turn to chemical weapons or that the banned weapons could fall into other hands.

Kevin Lamarque / AFP - Getty Images
Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, speaking Wednesday at NATO headquarters in Brussels, said the fall of Syrian President Bashar Assad's government was "inevitable."


"Ultimately, what we should be thinking about is a political transition in Syria and one that should start as soon as possible," Clinton said. "We believe their fall is inevitable. It is just a question of how many people have to die before that occurs."
Aides told NBC News that Clinton was expected next week to officially recognize the main opposition movement, the National Coalition of Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces, with which she is scheduled to meet in Morocco. Britain, France, Turkey and some key Arab leaders have already recognized the opposition.
Fighting intensified Wednesday in the 21-month civil war, which has left 40,000 people dead. The U.N. withdrew its personnel from Damascus, saying conditions were too dangerous.
The government said this week that it wouldn't use chemical weapons on its own people after President Barack Obama warned that doing so would be "totally unacceptable."
<br>

But U.S. officials said this week that the government had ordered its Chemical Weapons Corps to "be prepared," which Washington interpreted as a directive to begin bringing together the components needed to weaponize Syria's chemical stockpiles.
That process would involve mixing "precursor" chemicals for the deadly nerve gas sarin, which could be used in artillery shells, U.S. officials told NBC News, stressing that there was no evidence that process had as yet begun.
Watch World News videos on NBCNews.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/21426473)
U.S. officials had long believed that the Syrian government was stockpiling the banned chemical weapons before it acknowledged possessing them this summer.
NBC News reported in July (http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/27/12970606-syria-regime-reeling-armed-to-the-teeth-with-chemical-weapons?lite) that U.S. intelligence agencies believed that in addition to sarin, Syria had access to tabun, a chemical nerve agent, as well as traditional chemical weapons like mustard gas and hydrogen cyanide.
Officials told NBC News at the time that the Syrian government was moving the outlawed weapons around the country, leaving foreign intelligence agencies unsure where they might end up.
Syria is one of only seven nations that hasn't ratified the 1992 Chemical Weapons Convention, the arms control agreement that outlaws the production, stockpiling and use of such weapons.
Bombshells filled with chemicals can be carried by Syrian Air Force fighter-bombers, in particular Sukhoi-22/20, MiG-23 and Sukhoi-24 aircraft. In addition, some reports indicate that unguided short-range Frog-7 artillery rockets may be capable of carrying chemical payloads.
In terms of longer-range delivery systems, Syria has a few dozen SS-21 ballistic missiles with a maximum range of 72 miles; 200 Scud-Bs, with a maximum range of 180 miles; and 60 to 120 Scud-Cs, with a maximum range of 300 miles, all of which are mobile and are capable of carrying chemical weapons, according U.S. intelligence officials.
Yeah! Death to the agents of imperialism!


Wait, no - it's bourgeois propaganda!

[Let's Get Free]

not when they have the terrorists pinned down in Aleppo and almost entirely eliminated.

Ugh, I wish people wouldn't use this propaganda term.

[TheOther]

This is the same process of disinformation that set Iraq up for an illegal nine-year war of aggression, beginning in 2003 - with over one million people killed over that country’s non-existent weapons of mass destruction. It is the same scurrilous, criminal process that has set up Iran up for crippling, and illegal, illegal economic sanctions over unfounded allegations of nuclear weapons, which are in turn fuelling tensions towards a possible all-out war on the Islamic Republic. The criminals orchestrating this crime against Syria have to be stopped. The question is: How? We have demonstrated in millions of anti-war activists against the invasion of Iraq, but that didn't stop them! Perhaps a public threat to indict all them (i.e. Obama, Clinton, Cameron, Hague, Erdogan, the Gulf Emirs, etc) for war crimes might force them to re-think their criminal behaviour.


.



http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/05/15706380-syria-loads-chemical-weapons-into-bombs-military-awaits-assads-order


The Syrian military is prepared to use chemical weapons against its own people and is awaiting final orders from President Bashar Assad, U.S. officials told NBC News on Wednesday.
Andrea Mitchell, Robert Windrem, Courtney Kube and Catherine Chomiak of NBC News contributed to this report. Follow M. Alex Johnson on Twitter (http://twitter.com/#%21/MAlexJohnson) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/MAlexJohnson).


The military has loaded the precursor chemicals for sarin, a deadly nerve gas, into aerial bombs that could be dropped onto the Syrian people from dozens of fighter-bombers, the officials said.
As recently as Tuesday, officials had said there was as yet no evidence that the process of mixing the "precursor" chemicals had begun. But Wednesday, they said their worst fears had been confirmed: The nerve agents were locked and loaded inside the bombs.
Sarin is an extraordinarily lethal agent. Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's forces killed 5,000 Kurds with a single sarin attack on Halabja in 1988.
Advertise (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31066137/media-kit/) | AdChoices (http://g.msn.com/AIPRIV/en-us)







U.S. officials stressed that as of now, the sarin bombs hadn't been loaded onto planes and that Assad hadn't issued a final order to use them. But if he does, one of the officials said, "there's little the outside world can do to stop it."
Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton reiterated U.S. warnings to Assad not to use chemical weapons, saying he would be crossing "a red line" if he did so.
Speaking Wednesday at NATO headquarters in Brussels, Clinton said the Syrian government was on the brink of collapse, raising the prospect that "an increasingly desperate Assad regime" might turn to chemical weapons or that the banned weapons could fall into other hands.

Kevin Lamarque / AFP - Getty Images
Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, speaking Wednesday at NATO headquarters in Brussels, said the fall of Syrian President Bashar Assad's government was "inevitable."


"Ultimately, what we should be thinking about is a political transition in Syria and one that should start as soon as possible," Clinton said. "We believe their fall is inevitable. It is just a question of how many people have to die before that occurs."
Aides told NBC News that Clinton was expected next week to officially recognize the main opposition movement, the National Coalition of Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces, with which she is scheduled to meet in Morocco. Britain, France, Turkey and some key Arab leaders have already recognized the opposition.
Fighting intensified Wednesday in the 21-month civil war, which has left 40,000 people dead. The U.N. withdrew its personnel from Damascus, saying conditions were too dangerous.
The government said this week that it wouldn't use chemical weapons on its own people after President Barack Obama warned that doing so would be "totally unacceptable."
<br>

But U.S. officials said this week that the government had ordered its Chemical Weapons Corps to "be prepared," which Washington interpreted as a directive to begin bringing together the components needed to weaponize Syria's chemical stockpiles.
That process would involve mixing "precursor" chemicals for the deadly nerve gas sarin, which could be used in artillery shells, U.S. officials told NBC News, stressing that there was no evidence that process had as yet begun.
Watch World News videos on NBCNews.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/21426473)
U.S. officials had long believed that the Syrian government was stockpiling the banned chemical weapons before it acknowledged possessing them this summer.
NBC News reported in July (http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/27/12970606-syria-regime-reeling-armed-to-the-teeth-with-chemical-weapons?lite) that U.S. intelligence agencies believed that in addition to sarin, Syria had access to tabun, a chemical nerve agent, as well as traditional chemical weapons like mustard gas and hydrogen cyanide.
Officials told NBC News at the time that the Syrian government was moving the outlawed weapons around the country, leaving foreign intelligence agencies unsure where they might end up.
Syria is one of only seven nations that hasn't ratified the 1992 Chemical Weapons Convention, the arms control agreement that outlaws the production, stockpiling and use of such weapons.
Bombshells filled with chemicals can be carried by Syrian Air Force fighter-bombers, in particular Sukhoi-22/20, MiG-23 and Sukhoi-24 aircraft. In addition, some reports indicate that unguided short-range Frog-7 artillery rockets may be capable of carrying chemical payloads.
In terms of longer-range delivery systems, Syria has a few dozen SS-21 ballistic missiles with a maximum range of 72 miles; 200 Scud-Bs, with a maximum range of 180 miles; and 60 to 120 Scud-Cs, with a maximum range of 300 miles, all of which are mobile and are capable of carrying chemical weapons, according U.S. intelligence officials.
Yeah! Death to the agents of imperialism!


Wait, no - it's bourgeois propaganda!

[DDR]

See, I more concern about this (http://rt.com/news/us-senate-military-syria-305/) than about Assad.

[#FF0000]

Imperialist apologists gonna sensationalize.

I think chemical weapons would be sorta tame compared to the things they already use e.g. improvised fuel-air bombs.

But does anyone have a good source for a summary of the conflict right now? From where I'm standing Syria just looks like a full-on Hobbesian state of nature

[Grenzer]

Ugh, I wish people wouldn't use this propaganda term.

You're forgetting that it's only propaganda when it's used by the "bourgeois media"(the only media that's around, so far as I'm aware).


I think chemical weapons would be sorta tame compared to the things they already use e.g. improvised fuel-air bombs.

Well if the reports are true that they're using Sarin gas, then it would be far more deadly than that. Saddam's regimed used just a single bomb loaded with one of those against the Kurds back in the Gulf War that supposedly killed between 3,000 and 5,000 people.

[TheOther]

Please search the interview; 'Amy Goodman and General Wesley Clark March 2007', where the plans to go to war are reported, if this link does not work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DJ--Z3lvaQ The invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq through to Syria and Iran were planned prior to 9/11. It is abundently clear that the invasions and the pending war with Syria and Iran are premeditated planned killings, destruction and wars. The West is a very sick and criminal association, run by greedy murdering psychopaths and occupied by willing imoral dupes and hypocrites with a criminal complicit corporate mass media baying for blood.

Most of the USA's politicians belong in jails, yet they are voted into government power by communities and cities indoctrinated with the philosophy of life of xenophobia, racism, ultra-patriotism, classism, Ayn Rand, narcissism, family-narcissism, group-narcissism and extreme hatred toward other humans, from childhood until adult life


.




I'm skeptical of anything the US government claims about other governments that it opposes.

[Jack]

Ugh, I wish people wouldn't use this propaganda term.

But they are terrorists.

[GoddessCleoLover]

The use of sarin gas on a civilian population would be heinous indeed. Assad is a Ba'athist and fellow Ba'athist Saddam Hussein used sarin gas on the Kurds. I have no doubt that Putin would be highly averse to Assad's use of sarin, but OTOH if Assad is facing a Qaddafi-style debacle and demise he wouldn't have anything to lose by defying Putin's wishes.

[Let's Get Free]

But they are terrorists.

Right, the rebels are all western backed terrorists or Jihadists. The idea that the people might actually have some reasonable grievances they want addressed is simply “out of the question”.

[syrian situation]

Thoughts on this?

Can't post links but its on "The SyriaTube" channel on youtube, posted only a matter of hours ago

Further details: google potassium chlorate chemical weapon, should be top result

[syrian situation]

There's a video that appears to show syrian rebels testing chemical weapons (using Turkish made chemicals) on rabbits

Thoughts on this?

Can't post links but its on "The SyriaTube" channel on youtube, posted only a matter of hours ago

Further details: google potassium chlorate chemical weapon, should be top result

[Jack]

Right, the rebels are all western backed terrorists or Jihadists. The idea that the people might actually have some reasonable grievances they want addressed is simply “out of the question”.

They certainly wouldn't be fighting on the same side of those people or taking part in the massacres of "government agents" and expulsions of Christians from "rebel" held areas if their only motive was bourgeois democracy or some other "reasonable grievance".

[GoddessCleoLover]

"Western backed terrorists and Jihadists"? That may be the Ba'ath party propaganda line, but even Assad and his inner circle don't believe that line of shit. The Assad regime has always been anchored in Syria's Alawite minority. The majority of Syria's population tolerated this regime for many years due to a variety of factors. That time is past. Today, a clear majority of Syrians oppose the Assad regime and many have gone so far as to take up arms.

[Paul Pott]

That we even have to discuss this is why the left will never be a history shaping force again.

But I guess anti-imperialism is so 1917.

[Jack]

"Western backed terrorists and Jihadists"? That may be the Ba'ath party propaganda line, but even Assad and his inner circle don't believe that line of shit. The Assad regime has always been anchored in Syria's Alawite minority.

Oh hey look, someone read Wikipedia, maybe you should expand that reading a little bit before you try to act like an authority on the issue. The Syrian military, since French colonial times, has traditionally been dominated by Alawites because they were preferable to the Sunni majority. When the Ba'ath Party led a military coup, who do you think is going to be behind it? Not to mention that ideas like pan-Arabism or socialism have traditionally found their roots in Christianity and Shiism throughout the Muslim world. Most of the communists in Afghanistan who resisted Soviet occupation were of Shia backround, Iran's blossoming communist movement until the 1980's, Bahraini Marxists fighting the Sunni monarchy, Michel Aflaq was a Christian along with the founder of the PFLP. It's not "Assad's regime", it's the Ba'ath Party as a whole which appeals to minority religions.



The majority of Syria's population tolerated this regime for many years due to a variety of factors.

A variety of factors such as being content.


That time is past. Today, a clear majority of Syrians oppose the Assad regime and many have gone so far as to take up arms.

[citation needed]

I bet you applauded the "rebels" in Libya and turned around and acted shocked and appalled when they began making moves to privatize the oil sector.

You're trying to turn this into a war of the majority versus a religious minority, it isn't. Syria is a secular state, religion has absolutely no authority in its government and there is no repression or persecution of Sunni Islam. It is the Sunni rebels who are persecuting Christian and Shia minorities in the regions they control, I deplore you to find me one example of massive repression of Sunniism or Christianity in favor of Alawite Shiism. Your argument about a religious minority being in charge of a country as repressive is comparable to saying Obama shouldn't be president because he doesn't represent the white majority.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Citing Michel Aflaq as somehow associated with the Syrian Ba'athist party and/or the Assad regime demonstrates the lengths to which one has to strain to create a progressive "cover" for it. Aflaq split with the Syrian Ba'athists back in the sixties, even before Assad's father seized power. As to the contentment of the Syrian people, in the wake of the 1982 massacre one might surmise that they were "content" under a great deal of duress.

[Jack]

Citing Michel Aflaq as somehow associated with the Syrian Ba'athist party and/or the Assad regime demonstrates the lengths to which one has to strain to create a progressive "cover" for it. Aflaq split with the Syrian Ba'athists back in the sixties, even before Assad's father seized power.

I used that as a side point to show that Shia and Christian minorities in the Middle East were attracted to pan-Arab and socialist ideologies, I know that Michel Aflaq took the Iraqi side in the Ba'ath Party split. But you have chosen to harp on this minor side point and not address any of my other points.


As to the contentment of the Syrian people, in the wake of the 1982 massacre one might surmise that they were "content" under a great deal of duress.You mean the 30 year old massacre that finally ended a 6 year long Muslim Brotherhood uprising similar to this one?

[Let's Get Free]

You mean the 30 year old massacre that finally ended a 6 year long Muslim Brotherhood uprising similar to this one?

It's not a "Muslim Brotherhood Uprising." The uprising of the masses in Syria is the result of the same underlying social, economic and political causes which shook the dictatorship in the rest of the Arab world. Syria is also a country of poverty, unemployment, regional disparities and is penetrated by liberal capitalism. In Syria, too, there is a total absence of freedoms, suppression of the opposition for the sake of maintaining sectarianism and smashing people’s most basic democratic rights.

[GoddessCleoLover]

You mean the 30 year old massacre that finally ended a 6 year long Muslim Brotherhood uprising similar to this one?

One massacre committed by Hafez el-Assad was enough to terrorize the population for almost thirty years. Surely you can't believe that all, or even a majority, of those massacred were Muslim Brotherhood terrorists, can you?

[Jack]

It's not a "Muslim Brotherhood Uprising." The uprising of the masses in Syria is the result of the same underlying social, economic and political causes which shook the dictatorship in the rest of the Arab world. Syria is also a country of poverty, unemployment, regional disparities and is penetrated by liberal capitalism. In Syria, too, there is a total absence of freedoms, suppression of the opposition for the sake of maintaining sectarianism and smashing people’s most basic democratic rights.

Except the uprising is vastly comprised of Muslim Brotherhood affiliated elements and foreign mercenaries/volunteers, so yes it is a Muslim Brotherhood uprising. What does the opposition want exactly? "Democracy"? The same "democracy" the "rebels" wanted in Libya? I don't understand how anyone short of an idiot or a shill could voice support for these war criminals from a Leftist perspective.

That's a nice chunk of rhetoric, the protests had popular backing and support, the "uprising" and Western/Zionist funded terrorists do not.


One massacre committed by Hafez el-Assad was enough to terrorize the population for almost thirty years. Surely you can't believe that all, or even a majority, of those massacred were Muslim Brotherhood terrorists, can you?

Of course not all of them, every bomb dropped under Arthur Harris's command wasn't either, shit happens in a war. In this war the Ba'athist government has done the best job it can to evacuate civilian areas and provide care for people in war-torn regions of the country, the same cannot be said for the rebels.

[Let's Get Free]

Except the uprising is vastly comprised of Muslim Brotherhood affiliated elements and foreign mercenaries/volunteers, so yes it is a Muslim Brotherhood uprising.
Yes, the Muslim Brotherhood is present. But there is no evidence that you or anyone else has provided that these are, or are becoming, the *vast* forces either in the armed groups or in the political groups. Now if all you're doing is raising doubts, expressing alarm, drawing attention to stuff that is inconvenient for a simple cheerleading position, this is all very well. But it does seem that you want to go much further; you want to blame the armed insurgents themselves for the militarization of the revolt, and you want to imply that they were backed by imperialism from the very beginning to hijack this situation and turn it into sectarian bloodbath. And that is a theory and an explanation that is inconsistent with the facts as I understand them, and which seems to blame entirely the wrong people for this situation.


What does the opposition want exactly? "Democracy"?

Well, just look at what actually exists on the ground. We have: 1) the emergence of a grassroots counter power (local coordinating committees), 2) forms of political representation that are emerging all of which specifically contest the legitimacy of the regime, 3) the decomposition of the regime, with splits and defections aplenty. And all of this is taking place centrally around the questions of democratic rights. This is a classic democratic revolution. Whether you want to hear that or not.

[TheCat'sHat]

Assad is a lot of things but he's not stupid, he won't use them...unless he thinks he's got no option left and odds are Putin will take action himself before that.


What action would Putin take?

[TheCat'sHat]

Except the uprising is vastly comprised of Muslim Brotherhood affiliated elements and foreign mercenaries/volunteers, so yes it is a Muslim Brotherhood uprising. What does the opposition want exactly? "Democracy"? The same "democracy" the "rebels" wanted in Libya? I don't understand how anyone short of an idiot or a shill could voice support for these war criminals from a Leftist perspective.


That's very interesting. A friend of mine from school is from Syria and her cousin was recently killed by the regime for being amongst the opposition. I'll be sure to facebook her to inform her that he was secretly a member of the Muslim Brotherhood or an affiliated group. I'm sure she'll be relieved to know that his death was actually totally justified.

[#FF0000]

Well, just look at what actually exists on the ground. We have: 1) the emergence of a grassroots counter power (local coordinating committees)

Oh man I would love to hear what you have to say about the development of participatory democracy under african warlords in the congo.

Like I am looking at two insanely idealistic and frankly childish representations of what's going on in Syria right now.

[Let's Get Free]

Oh man I would love to hear what you have to say about the development of participatory democracy under african warlords in the congo.
I wasn't aware that there was any participatory democracy under the warlords in the Congo. Would you like to give me an example?

[#FF0000]

I wasn't aware that there was any participatory democracy under the warlords in the Congo. Would you like to give me an example?

that's the joke.

I mean listen I understand being critical of the anti-imperialists' apologetics when it comes to the atrocities committed by folks like Assad but lets make it very clear that the "rebels" are not fighting for anything worth cheerleading.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm skeptical of the Syrian opposition just because all of the people I hate in government & media here in the states seem to be supporting them. But at the same time I find the claims of the "anti-anti-regime" people to be extremely simplistic and dumb. For me it doesn't address what the demonstrations were in the earliest days of the protests against the Syrian government. Like some 20,000 people in Daraa back in March of 2011. Were they all bearded Sunnis who wanted to force radical Islam down everyone's throats?

Even if they were Islamists, didn't Islamists ultimately take power in Tunisia and Egypt? Yet leftists supported those uprisings. w/ Libya and Syria though some on the left try to compartmentalize these countries into some kind of anti-imperialist bloc, which I don't think makes much sense in a world with no USSR (leaving aside the fact that I don't think the logic worked very well even then).

[#FF0000]

Even if they were Islamists, didn't Islamists ultimately take power in Tunisia and Egypt?

Islamists were not the main party behind those uprisings, though. In Libya and Syria, Islamists played a much bigger role throughout (plus the other rebels in Libya weren't much better).

And from what I understand, yeah, Islamists in Syria were pretty big from the early going.

[Zeus the Moose]

Islamists were not the main party behind those uprisings, though. In Libya and Syria, Islamists played a much bigger role throughout (plus the other rebels in Libya weren't much better).

And from what I understand, yeah, Islamists in Syria were pretty big from the early going.

It's my understanding that in Syria, as opposed to Libya, there are reasonably sizeable forces in the broadly-defined rebel movement that are secular, left wing, and opposed to both Assad and Western imperialism. Lenin's Tomb at least has a couple (http://www.leninology.com/2012/07/the-syrian-revolt-enters-new-phase.html) of posts (http://www.leninology.com/2012/08/a-note-on-complexities-of-syrian.html) on the subject, which do reference such forces as having a greater degree of independent weight than any such forces did in Libya (which were entirely marginal, so admittedly that's a rather low standard.) From what I have seen you are largely right about Islamists being one of the biggest groups in the Syrian rebel movement (understandable considering the comparative treatment of persecuting religious opposition in Syria while being more cooptive of left-ish tendencies), but the Syrian rebel movement does seem to be more complicated than the Libyan one was.

[hetz]

I suspect this is propaganda.
Assad isn't stupid enough to use chemical weapons, that would harm him more than anyone and wouldn't do much against the rebels.

[TheCat'sHat]

The criminals orchestrating this crime against Syria have to be stopped. .

What 'Syria' is having a crime inflicted upon it? The Assad regime?

[brigadista]

its propaganda alright to justify Turkey getting patriot missiles from NATO - rumours of "chemical weapons" the new WMD....

[Yazman]

Chemical weapons? LOL. Yeah, right. We already went through this in 2003. The media will rattle off any old bullshit story to stir up support for war.

[Sasha]

It's not really debatable whether the Syrian regime possesses large amounts of chemical weapons, the debate is whether they would use it, either against its civilian population or foreign powers.
Considering that the regime (like many of its apologists here) portrays all internal opposition as foreign aggression serious worries might very well in place.

[Yazman]

It's not really debatable whether the Syrian regime possesses large amounts of chemical weapons, the debate is whether they would use it, either against its civilian population or foreign powers.
Considering that the regime (like many of its apologists here) portrays all internal opposition as foreign aggression serious worries might very well in place.

How isn't it debatable? A few US officials said so so we have to accept it?

I haven't seen any real evidence, so if you know where I can see some, please show me.

[TheCat'sHat]

It's not really debatable whether the Syrian regime possesses large amounts of chemical weapons, the debate is whether they would use it, either against its civilian population or foreign powers.
Considering that the regime (like many of its apologists here) portrays all internal opposition as foreign aggression serious worries might very well in place.

Right. I think supicision about the intentions of Turkey and the US are very warranted here. But people seem to be taking some outlandish positions. Assad isn't a nice man and he's been happy to let his military brutalize his civilian population. Will Assad use his chemical weapons? Maybe. He doesn't have much to lose and he is part if a regime that has proven itself not shy about mass slaughter in response to uprisings. So where does that lead? I don't know. The best alternative would have been for Assad to introduce reforms years ago. I suspect at this point it's too late for us to avoid this whole situation spiraling into a very dark place. I personally hope that some of the local powers or the US or Russia are willing to push hard on Assad to not use the weapons. That doesn't mean I trust their motives. Turkey is happy to brutalize it's local Kurd population, same with Russia regarding Chechnya, the US has willingly supported Israeli atrocities and unleashed the civil war in Iraq. But if they can pressure Assad to not use the weapons then that would be a good thing. Not by invading but hopefully by other means.

[TheCat'sHat]

How isn't it debatable? A few US officials said so so we have to accept it?

I haven't seen any real evidence, so if you know where I can see some, please show me.

Syria having the materials doesn't rest on a few US officials. Syria mixing the component materials and loading them onto bombs is the assertions that rests on these very recent reports.

[Sasha]

How isn't it debatable? A few US officials said so so we have to accept it?

I haven't seen any real evidence, so if you know where I can see some, please show me.

They admitted it themselves as recently as july this year; http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/world/middleeast/chemical-weapons-wont-be-used-in-rebellion-syria-says.html / http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
Which is more than our (or for example Israels) nuclear arsenal what is merely a public secret but yeah, they do have large quantities of nerve gas.
its actually the primary reason why Israel still and the NATO for a long time was reluctant to support the overthrow of Assad, they feel/felt that they rather have a "reasonable" strong man with full control than murky chaos where maybe al-qaida or hezbollah would get their hands on the arsenal, contrary to popular opinion the pentagon did learn some lessons from the major fuck up in Iraq

[Yazman]

They admitted it themselves as recently as july this year; http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/world/middleeast/chemical-weapons-wont-be-used-in-rebellion-syria-says.html / http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
Which is more than our (or for example Israels) nuclear arsenal what is merely a public secret but yeah, they do have large quantities of nerve gas.
its actually the primary reason why Israel still and the NATO for a long time was reluctant to support the overthrow of Assad, they feel/felt that they rather have a "reasonable" strong man with full control than murky chaos where maybe al-qaida or hezbollah would get their hands on the arsenal, contrary to popular opinion the pentagon did learn some lessons from the major fuck up in Iraq

Thanks for the links. So they do actually have them. I wonder why? Could it be because Israel has such a large stockpile of nuclear weapons?

[hetz]

Even Hoxha's Albania had chemical weapons, no doubt Syria has a stockpile. Syria's armed forces in general are quite sizeable.

[Sasha]

Thanks for the links. So they do actually have them. I wonder why? Could it be because Israel has such a large stockpile of nuclear weapons?

I think it predates the conflict with Israel (although Israel of course occupies the Gohlan), its more a sad fact that everybody got the stuff past WWI, some just got the luxuary to replace the deterrent of crude chemical and biological weapons with the deterrent of (friends with) sophisticated nuclear weapons.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I don't understand why some comrades here are choosing sides and crossing the class line in that regard. Either way you slice it, these actions or potential actions (if proven to be true) are horrific and is murdering the Syrian working class in huge numbers. Why the fuck would you support or defend either side? :confused:

[piet11111]

Every country with the ability to produce pesticides can produce chemical weapons and every country with the ability to produce something like say insulin can produce bio-weapons.


Hard to believe that 100 years ago only the most technologically advanced country's could produce a machinegun.

[Jack]

Yes, the Muslim Brotherhood is present. But there is no evidence that you or anyone else has provided that these are, or are becoming, the *vast* forces either in the armed groups or in the political groups.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9450587/Muslim-Brotherhood-establishes-militia-inside-Syria.html

The Muslim Brotherhood has been the only opposition group in Syria worth talking about for the last 30 years, why is it such a surprise when they form the bulk of the rebels? The Shia and Christians are not behind this revolt, it's entirely Sunni-Islamist dominated, lets compare these maps:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7167/6525738149_754b9d17b7_z.jpg
Now this from the BBC 2 days ago:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/64531000/gif/_64531431_syria_insurg464x595_nov.gif

All of the rebels are in Sunni areas, and also almost all are connected to the borders of Turkey and Israel/Jordan! I wonder why that could be!

Now we can look at the rebels persecution of religious minorities:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/opinion/syrias-threatened-christians.html?_r=0


This March, months before the Qusayr ultimatum, Islamist militants from the opposition’s Faruq Brigade had gone door to door in Hamidiya and Bustan al-Diwan neighborhoods of Homs, expelling local Christians. Following the raids, some 90 percent of Christians reportedly fled the city for government-controlled areas, neighboring countries or a stretch of land near the Lebanese border called the Valley of Christians (Wadi al-Nasarah). Of the more than 80,000 Christians who lived in Homs prior to the uprising, approximately 400 remain today.

Your whining about a religious minority being at the head of a secular regime is nothing compared to rebels who write graffiti and chant things like "Christians to Beirut, Alawites to the coffin".



Now if all you're doing is raising doubts, expressing alarm, drawing attention to stuff that is inconvenient for a simple cheerleading position, this is all very well. But it does seem that you want to go much further; you want to blame the armed insurgents themselves for the militarization of the revolt, and you want to imply that they were backed by imperialism from the very beginning to hijack this situation and turn it into sectarian bloodbath. And that is a theory and an explanation that is inconsistent with the facts as I understand them, and which seems to blame entirely the wrong people for this situation.

But that's exactly what it is, if it wasn't for the imperialist powers funneling weapons to, training, and giving money to the "opposition" to prolong the war this would have ended months ago.




Well, just look at what actually exists on the ground. We have: 1) the emergence of a grassroots counter power (local coordinating committees), 2) forms of political representation that are emerging all of which specifically contest the legitimacy of the regime, 3) the decomposition of the regime, with splits and defections aplenty. And all of this is taking place centrally around the questions of democratic rights. This is a classic democratic revolution. Whether you want to hear that or not.

You must be joking if A. you support liberal bourgeois democracy for the sake of liberal bourgeois democracy (once again you're the same idiots who supported the "rebels" in Libya) or B. you think that this is a "revolution" and not just a bunch of Western funded and trained Islamists attempting to take over the country.


That's very interesting. A friend of mine from school is from Syria and her cousin was recently killed by the regime for being amongst the opposition. I'll be sure to facebook her to inform her that he was secretly a member of the Muslim Brotherhood or an affiliated group. I'm sure she'll be relieved to know that his death was actually totally justified.

Do you care about the Syrian soldiers who have died trying to defend their country from Western imposed Contras? Do you care about their families or what they're feeling?

Sorry your friend's cousin made a stupid choice.

[Let's Get Free]

The Muslim Brotherhood has been the only opposition group in Syria worth talking about for the last 30 years, why is it such a surprise when they form the bulk of the rebels? The Shia and Christians are not behind this revolt, it's entirely Sunni-Islamist dominated

Well about 3/4 of the entire Syrian population is Sunni Muslim. But the Syrian opposition is rather broad and diverse, as broad and diverse as Syrian society itself. It consists of Islamists and secularist, armed rebels and unarmed activists, people who favor imperialist intervention and people who staunchly reject it, - this is a genuine, popular social uprising fighting for elementary democratic rights against a brutally repressive regime. Sure, it is turbulent, diverse in composition and politics, and with competing forces contending for influence. Just like every other revolution in human history. I would also like to add that jihadi elements are often not viewed favorably by local populations, and beginning of September clashes took place between groups of the FSA and a jihadist group near the Turkish border. You don't hear about the“National Unity Brigades” of the FSA. The speaker of this group declared in the first line of a statement “Religion is for God, and the homeland is for all.”, while adding that “the National Unity Brigades operates for the sake of a civil, democratic state for all ethnicities and social identities”. To the question “Who arms and supports you?”, the speaker of the group answers : “Patriotic individuals who don’t want recognition. We reject any support that is politicized or that is not patriotic, no matter how big. And everyone who supports us shares our dream of a civil state.”




But that's exactly what it is, if it wasn't for the imperialist powers funneling weapons to, training, and giving money to the "opposition" to prolong the war this would have ended months ago.


The armed "opposition" has some loose centralization, and leadership, based in defectors from the military - many of them soldiers who didn't want to murder Syrian civilians, others civilians who had guns. It was formed after about six months. Its emergence followed long after the regime had already militarized the struggle. Therefore, your attempt to blame the armed insurgents, rather than the security apparatus deployed to kill protesters, for the civil war is absurd and morally bankrupt.



You must be joking if A. you support liberal bourgeois democracy for the sake of liberal bourgeois democracy (once again you're the same idiots who supported the "rebels" in Libya) or B. you think that this is a "revolution" and not just a bunch of Western funded and trained Islamists attempting to take over the country.

I happen to think that even Bourgeois liberal democracy is a significant improvement over a bourgeois blood soaked police state regime. Believe it or not, Marxists actually used to support democratic revolutions.
But, in the most generous light, yours is an example of what was described as 'blanket thinking': taking one aspect of the situation, which you probably understand only dimly, to represent the whole. But that is only a small part of the problem here, just as your irrational approach is only a small part of the problem. The underlying problem is that a wide swathe of people on the left who should be on the side of a popular revolution when it happens can't escape the habits of thinking acquired in the 1990s and 2000s:, it's a fake, it's controlled by imperialism, anyone who says otherwise is a warmonger ready to make peace with the imperialist mass media.



Do you care about the Syrian soldiers who have died trying to defend their country from Western imposed Contras? Do you care about their families or what they're feeling?

Sorry your friend's cousin made a stupid choice.

Again, it was the armed apparatus of the state who began to murder civilians in large numbers who started the civil war in the first place, you have to be absolutely deluded to think otherwise. And as for "Western imposed contras," guess what? Assad ain't no fuckin Sandinista. If anything, it's the exact opposite. Assad's regime is the reactionary force here. But i think if this was another regime, say a Mubarak, you wouldn't be confecting these preposterous excuses. It is because it is Assad, and because you see something inherently progressive and justified about the existence of his regime because of its antagonism to Washington, that you descend to this level of utterly rotten casuistry of defending a reactionary, viciously anti-working class capitalist regime.

[RadioRaheem84]

All the bickering is ridiculous.

A.) Assad's Baath Party is not democratic nor something to support.

B.) The Syrian Opposition is diverse, but the biggest faction with any chance to topple Assad and has the funding/power are the Islamists.

C.) The US used white phosphorus in Falluja and these pricks in the media have the nerve to spread a rumor that Assad will use chemical weapons. The US media buried the story and only independent media reported chemical weapons use in Iraq by the US Army. They used chemical weapons yet when it comes to rumors of them being used in Syria by Assad, NATO wants to move via Turkey.
http://news.yahoo.com/nato-moves-toward-deployment-syria-border-190530827.html

What we have here is another proxy war like Libya where a popular opposition protest in favor of changes in a rather autocratic government has been hijacked by the US. They arm the crazy Islamist Sunni faction and set up a phony government in Egypt.

Read on who the leader of this opposition movement is!

http://theredphoenixapl.org/?s=syria&submit=Search

[RadioRaheem84]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wgWWXvmZmsc#at=175

[Hiero]

*sigh* anti-imps gonna anti-imp I suppose

How old are you? I don't mean that to be offensive, but anyone over 20 here remembers back in 2002/03 being told constantly that Iraq had WMD's. The sources always were these random satellite pictures that the lay person could not recgonise what was what in the photo. It has nothing to do with 'anti-imps', its got more to do with not trusting 'US officials' when they are just saying 'the Syrians are going to use chemical gas'. We have heard it all before and that turned out to be blatent lying by the military and US politicians who wanted to justify a ground incursion.

Anyone who takes the word of Hillary Clinton and 'US officials' on this topic is quite foolish and has learnt nothing from the Iraq war. Then to say "whent hey drop them on your doorstop", is even more foolish and just warmongering. When people questioned the validaty of the WMD 'evidence' they were told "wait for them to be droped on your doorstep', as if thoose questioning the 'facts' were already culprable for a terrorist attack on US soil. Clinton is just trying to build NATO and European Governments' support for military offensive against Syria.



They admitted to having them. I don't see how you people can can immediately dismiss the reality of this as propaganda when the Syrian government has admitted to having weapons of this kind.

What the papers have done is confused having chemical weopons, to unfounded claims that Syria was going to use them in a civil war. There is reading, and then there is critical analysis. You lack the latter.

[RadioRaheem84]

What the papers have done is confused having chemical weopons, to unfounded claims that Syria was going to use them in a civil war. There is reading, and then there is critical analysis. You lack the latter.


Bingo.

[TheCat'sHat]

Do you care about the Syrian soldiers who have died trying to defend their country from Western imposed Contras?

I care about the individuals. Do I respect their cause of fighting to protect a thuggish regime that routinely violates the basic rights or it's citizenry? No. But I can understand why they would do it. And your attempts to romanticize the government of Syria are pretty disturbing.


Do you care about their families or what they're feeling?

Yes. I do. Due to the way that Assad has handled the originally peaceful protests I seriously doubt that this is going to end well. As it common in situations like this I doubt that the more decent factions of the opposition will end up defining or controlling the government that comes after Assad is finally pushed out. Assuming that he is pushed out. So I can understand why members of the Syrian army may be genuinely afraid of what will happen to them and their families in whatever regime comes next.


Sorry your friend's cousin made a stupid choice.

He was a very decent person who made a very brave choice. He wasn't a member of the Brotherhood or even part of the armed faction of the opposition. He was just among the numerous individuals who decided to stand up to a thuggish regime while remaining peaceful. You're snide dismissal of his murder by an authoritarian state is really pretty shitty.

[Ostrinski]

Yes, sorry for being quick to judge. There is every reason to be suspicious of this given the experience of 2003. However, the fact that they do have them as opposed to Iraq where they didn't is certainly of relevance.

[Geiseric]

None of this shit makes chemical weapons okay, you know who is going to die? The women and children, the same people who have been killed by both bourgeois sides in this fucking conflict.

[l'Enfermé]

At least 90 percent of the armed gangs in Syria are religiously motivated. Their new figurehead, Moaz al-Khatib, an Imam and long-time rep of Western oil giants, rants about "gold-worshipping jews" and Shia "apostates" and "rejectionists"(don't forget that the punishment for apostasy, in Islam, is death), calls the Saudi Arabian monarchy his "friend" and promises to found an "Islamic state" in Syria. And you talk of secularists and "democratic rights"? Because some of the less radical Islamists clash with the more radical ones? You do understand that Islamists and Jihadists and all those filthy creatures are not one homogenous entity, right?

[Sasha]

At least 90 percent of the armed gangs in Syria are religiously motivated. Their new figurehead, Moaz al-Khatib, an Imam and long-time rep of Western oil giants, rants about "gold-worshipping jews" and Shia "apostates" and "rejectionists"(don't forget that the punishment for apostasy, in Islam, is death), calls the Saudi Arabian monarchy his "friend" and promises to found an "Islamic state" in Syria. And you talk of secularists and "democratic rights"? Because some of the less radical Islamists clash with the more radical ones? You do understand that Islamists and Jihadists and all those filthy creatures are not one homogenous entity, right?

Yeah, at least the shabiha you cheer are a pretty homogeneous bunch of sectarian rapists and child murderers, now that's a an army of hired racist thugs a good anti-imp can get behind...

[hetz]

What fucking Shabiha? If Syrians depended on them against the rebels the war would have been over a year ago.
Also what racism, what are you talking about? The rebels are openly racist, that's why the minorities support Assad, save for the Kurds who have their own organizations.

[Sasha]

What fucking Shabiha? If Syrians depended on them against the rebels the war would have been over a year ago.
Also what racism, what are you talking about? The rebels are openly racist, that's why the minorities support Assad, save for the Kurds who have their own organizations.

And another gold star way to miss my point comment.
I was merely exposing the mind baffling hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance of you anti-imps who keep claiming that somehow the presence of (be it a majority or a minority) of sectarian racist (hired) terrorist thugs in the heterogeneous opposition should mean we should fall in line with Assad while his own power relies strongly on the presence of a very homogeneous army of hired sectarian racist terrorist thugs...
In dutch we have a saying about looking for other peoples splinters but missing the two by four in your own eye.

[Sasha]

As you keep claiming, yet as the army is of fighting the insurgency and many of the cops deserted he increasingly (but always already did to a serious extend) rely on the sectarian shabiha to terrorise the populace that is not in armed opposition.
Sure some of the shabiha operating in damascus are Sunni (but exclusive so then) but the vast majority are sectarian alawi.

As one of these fellows so charmingly said when asked why they target non-combatant females; "Sunni women are giving birth to babies who will fight us in years to come, so we have the right to fight anyone who can hurt us in the future"

[l'Enfermé]

Yeah, at least the shabiha you cheer are a pretty homogeneous bunch of sectarian rapists and child murderers, now that's a an army of hired racist thugs a good anti-imp can get behind...
Do you see me cheering anyone? "Anti-imp"? Who are you talking to? Because that certainly has nothing to do with me. I have never called myself an "anti-imp"(in fact, you restricted me for being a pro-imp, not an anti-imp, remember that?) and I'm not a supporter of the Syrian government or a friend of its supporters.

And as far as this "shabiha"(which, according to the lovely Western propoganda "media" sources, is a militia made up of large-bodied Alawite sectarians with numerous Assad-family tattoos on their bodies, who are constantly drugged with steroids), I have seen no reliable evidence at all that they have played any significant role in the Civil War(or seen them at all really). But I have seen at least 2 dozen videos of Syrian "freedom-fighters" torturing and humiliating unarmed captives before executing them while howling "Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!" over and over again, executing postal workers and dumping their bodies from rooftops, and so on. Disturbing stuff but I have seen what these Sunni Islamists are capable of back in Chechnya, especially the ones imported from abroad.

But sure, I have seen a video where the FSA butchered a couple of middle-aged armed men in civilian clothing because they were "watchdogs of the regime" or some silliness like that, but the only rational explanation offered to me(in the comments section) was that they were killing a couple of local militiamen defending their neighborhood from armed gangs, but since if you're anti-FSA it means you're also a Shia apostate and anti-Islam, so shooting you is a must(for the "revolution", of course).

[TheOther]

Next stop Syria and then Iran. Former 4-star U.S General Admits to America Foreign Policy Coup


MMAONc7GeIc

Former four star general and NATO commander Wesley Clark talks about the neocon plan to invade seven countries in five years. Included in the plan was an attack on Libya. Clark mentions the plan at two minutes, 26 seconds into the video. The resistence to the US led occupation of Iraq derailed this march of war on to the countries Clark lists. But, WHAT do we have now?? Libya down, and the crazy lunatics want to press on with inciting civil insurrection in country after country.

Syria and Iran are next in the crosshairs. The CIA and MI6 and others go into the target country and recruit rebels. An insurrection starts against the government. Unfortunately, civilians are killed. Under the guise of "protecting" the civilians, the US and the UK and France, and others press NATO into another war. This is what happened in Libya. Watch these crazies go for Syria and Iran, and maybe Lebanon and others. America is not a representative democracy now. it is a looney bin of CIA criminals.


.





http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/05/15706380-syria-loads-chemical-weapons-into-bombs-military-awaits-assads-order


The Syrian military is prepared to use chemical weapons against its own people and is awaiting final orders from President Bashar Assad, U.S. officials told NBC News on Wednesday.
Andrea Mitchell, Robert Windrem, Courtney Kube and Catherine Chomiak of NBC News contributed to this report. Follow M. Alex Johnson on Twitter (http://twitter.com/#%21/MAlexJohnson) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/MAlexJohnson).


The military has loaded the precursor chemicals for sarin, a deadly nerve gas, into aerial bombs that could be dropped onto the Syrian people from dozens of fighter-bombers, the officials said.
As recently as Tuesday, officials had said there was as yet no evidence that the process of mixing the "precursor" chemicals had begun. But Wednesday, they said their worst fears had been confirmed: The nerve agents were locked and loaded inside the bombs.
Sarin is an extraordinarily lethal agent. Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's forces killed 5,000 Kurds with a single sarin attack on Halabja in 1988.
Advertise (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31066137/media-kit/) | AdChoices (http://g.msn.com/AIPRIV/en-us)







U.S. officials stressed that as of now, the sarin bombs hadn't been loaded onto planes and that Assad hadn't issued a final order to use them. But if he does, one of the officials said, "there's little the outside world can do to stop it."
Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton reiterated U.S. warnings to Assad not to use chemical weapons, saying he would be crossing "a red line" if he did so.
Speaking Wednesday at NATO headquarters in Brussels, Clinton said the Syrian government was on the brink of collapse, raising the prospect that "an increasingly desperate Assad regime" might turn to chemical weapons or that the banned weapons could fall into other hands.

Kevin Lamarque / AFP - Getty Images
Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, speaking Wednesday at NATO headquarters in Brussels, said the fall of Syrian President Bashar Assad's government was "inevitable."


"Ultimately, what we should be thinking about is a political transition in Syria and one that should start as soon as possible," Clinton said. "We believe their fall is inevitable. It is just a question of how many people have to die before that occurs."
Aides told NBC News that Clinton was expected next week to officially recognize the main opposition movement, the National Coalition of Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces, with which she is scheduled to meet in Morocco. Britain, France, Turkey and some key Arab leaders have already recognized the opposition.
Fighting intensified Wednesday in the 21-month civil war, which has left 40,000 people dead. The U.N. withdrew its personnel from Damascus, saying conditions were too dangerous.
The government said this week that it wouldn't use chemical weapons on its own people after President Barack Obama warned that doing so would be "totally unacceptable."
<br>

But U.S. officials said this week that the government had ordered its Chemical Weapons Corps to "be prepared," which Washington interpreted as a directive to begin bringing together the components needed to weaponize Syria's chemical stockpiles.
That process would involve mixing "precursor" chemicals for the deadly nerve gas sarin, which could be used in artillery shells, U.S. officials told NBC News, stressing that there was no evidence that process had as yet begun.
Watch World News videos on NBCNews.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/21426473)
U.S. officials had long believed that the Syrian government was stockpiling the banned chemical weapons before it acknowledged possessing them this summer.
NBC News reported in July (http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/27/12970606-syria-regime-reeling-armed-to-the-teeth-with-chemical-weapons?lite) that U.S. intelligence agencies believed that in addition to sarin, Syria had access to tabun, a chemical nerve agent, as well as traditional chemical weapons like mustard gas and hydrogen cyanide.
Officials told NBC News at the time that the Syrian government was moving the outlawed weapons around the country, leaving foreign intelligence agencies unsure where they might end up.
Syria is one of only seven nations that hasn't ratified the 1992 Chemical Weapons Convention, the arms control agreement that outlaws the production, stockpiling and use of such weapons.
Bombshells filled with chemicals can be carried by Syrian Air Force fighter-bombers, in particular Sukhoi-22/20, MiG-23 and Sukhoi-24 aircraft. In addition, some reports indicate that unguided short-range Frog-7 artillery rockets may be capable of carrying chemical payloads.
In terms of longer-range delivery systems, Syria has a few dozen SS-21 ballistic missiles with a maximum range of 72 miles; 200 Scud-Bs, with a maximum range of 180 miles; and 60 to 120 Scud-Cs, with a maximum range of 300 miles, all of which are mobile and are capable of carrying chemical weapons, according U.S. intelligence officials.
Yeah! Death to the agents of imperialism!


Wait, no - it's bourgeois propaganda!

[TheOther]

If the Patriot missiles that US Imperialism is planning to use shoot down a Syrian aircraft, that would be an act of war, in which case Syria would be justified in destroying them. If that happens all hell will break loose. Iran would come to Syria's aid and supply it with weapons and troops as well. America and the NATO countries are in no position to start another war. I think these missile batteries are there or would be there to intimidate the Syrians and give moral support to the rebels. The crews would be under very strict instructions not to use them. This is psychological warfare

[Grenzer]

Hello my little friend ! What you say has much value, but there's one thing you're forgetting: it's not just just psychological warfare, it's psychorigid.



If the Patriot missiles that US Imperialism is planning to use shoot down a Syrian aircraft, that would be an act of war, in which case Syria would be justified in destroying them. If that happens all hell will break loose. Iran would come to Syria's aid and supply it with weapons and troops as well. America and the NATO countries are in no position to start another war. I think these missile batteries are there or would be there to intimidate the Syrians and give moral support to the rebels. The crews would be under very strict instructions not to use them. This is psychological warfare

[Let's Get Free]

What we have here is another proxy war like Libya where a popular opposition protest in favor of changes in a rather autocratic government has been hijacked by the US.

I don't think so. How can you claim it's a proxy war without demonstrating that the (admitted by all sides) intervention of western imperialism is having a decisive influence on the course and character of the struggle? People act as though it's hard to see decisive influence: when Saddam Hussein was overthrown 150,000 US troops (plus tens of thousands of allied troops) poured across the border after days of air strikes by thousands of planes. In Libya tens of thousands of sorties were flown, destroying the majority of Gaddafi's arsenal - done with public acceptance of the conditions tied to that support by the TNC, which dominated the rebel side and controlled access to military aid, training and special forces from NATO.

In Syria the USA and its allies are providing negligible arms - including no heavy weaponry - and have no political influence beyond the TNC-styled SNC, which has little weight inside of Syria itself.

[RadioRaheem84]

In Syria the USA and its allies are providing negligible arms - including no heavy weaponry - and have no political influence beyond the TNC-styled SNC, which has little weight inside of Syria itself.

I dont think it matters if the people the US is behind has popular support or not. I said that they hijacked the popular opposition movement against Asad by claiming themselves to be the only legit authority that will get funding and political support/recognition. On the ground in Syria they may have no major influence.

This force could be as small as 1/4 of the rest of the opposition, it still has more financial backing, political support and arms. I mean this is classic proxy contra style warfare.

[Sasha]

I dont think it matters if the people the US is behind has popular support or not. I said that they hijacked the popular opposition movement against Asad by claiming themselves to be the only legit authority that will get funding and political support/recognition. On the ground in Syria they may have no major influence.

This force could be as small as 1/4 of the rest of the opposition, it still has more financial backing, political support and arms. I mean this is classic proxy contra style warfare.

it does matter, because regional conservative islamist suni nations (like qatar and turkey), suni buisnesmen related to the MB and salafist jihadist are the only groups supplying the armed opposition vis a vis the alawi dominated regime with their Shiite Iranian support is what drives this to be more and more into a sectarian civilwar. not that i would support the US or europe dumping arms into the conflict but at least those secular "leftists" standing firmly behind the murderer Assad should wonder if they are not fulfilling their own prophecies, if we (all), like it seems now, drop the ball in syria like we did in for example Chechnya, where also the only people coming to the aid of a very moderate islamist to secular proletariat originally only struggling for a bit of freedom where the jihadist extremists, you shouldnt complain if here too the Jihadist and/or at least the MB style capitalist-conservative islamist become the dominant players.
Instead of crying "shame!" and "i told you so" one after all could also wonder in how far you all yourself are part of the problem...
because why is there still a sizeable leftist influence in the egypt and tunesian uprisings, in fact why are they seemingly now the factions driving these uprising towards truely revolutionary situations, while they seems to be going from little to nothing in libya and syria? i dare to suggest that the positions of the traditional "left" towards the dictatorships and the roles the "leftist" parties and "leftist" unions fulfilled in society (resistance vs propping up the regime) over the last decades in those countries is a major factor.

[TheOther]

Hi friend, it will be very interesting to see the repercussions from instituting another draft to feed the WAR, being that the majority of the cannon fodder are armed home boys with dads that were conscripted and suffered the consequences.

The old saying " Don't count your chickens before they hatch" could readily applied here, for the format is entirely much more challanging than Iragistan and Lybia for the Dragons of the Far East have been stired....and NATO may get burned on their next fiasco. And another thing is that the US is sixteen trillion in debt. Thanks to all the wars. The bansters just love it however. America is at deaths door. The federal debt now exceeds the entire annual economic output of the United States


.







Hello my little friend ! What you say has much value, but there's one thing you're forgetting: it's not just just psychological warfare, it's psychorigid.

[TheOther]

Bloody hell Russia & China! Do something! Are you just going to sit back and let the forces of darkness destroy yet another proud & independent Arab country? Might as well just invite them into Iran too! Lebanon will be turned into an Israeli puppet state and the Palestinians should just pack up and leave because nobody will lift a finger to help them either.

[TheOther]

Hi freepalestine: Here is a good article in this link:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/potential-military-confrontation-russia-arms-syria-with-powerful-ballistic-missiles/5314850

Potential Military Confrontation: Russia Arms Syria with Powerful Ballistic Missiles


http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/iskandar-system.jpg

By Global Research News
Global Research, December 09, 2012
hamsayeh.net

by Reza Kahlili

Hours after NATO agreed on Tuesday to send Patriot missiles to Turkey because of the crisis in Syria, Russia delivered its first shipment of Iskander missiles to Syria. The superior Iskander can travel at hypersonic speed of over 1.3 miles per second (Mach 6-7) and has a range of over 280 miles with pinpoint accuracy of destroying targets with its 1,500-pound warhead, a nightmare for any missile defense system. According to Mashregh, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard media outlet, Russia had warned Turkey not to escalate the situation, but with Turkey’s request for Patriot missiles, it delivered its first shipment of Iskanders to Syria.

Reporting today, Mashregh said the handover occurred when Russian naval logistic vessels docked at Tartus in Syria. The Iskandar is a surface-to-surface missile that no missile defense system can trace or destroy, Mashregh said. Russia had earlier threatened that should America put its missile defense system in Poland, it would retaliate by placing its Iskander missiles at Kaliningrad, its Baltic Sea port.



from tunisian news


L2wfZUt6qUQ






No evidence Syria mixing chemical agents, Pentagon official says
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/04/15676708-no-evidence-syria-mixing-chemical-agents-pentagon-official-says?lite



you are using sectarianist excuses for the islamists/salafists/alqaida being sectarian.the syrian govt side is sunni majority.
you dismiss the influence of the americans,france ,u.k.,nato and saudi also.weapons and miltary aid is being sent by govts you mentioned and others -and lebanon march 14th .
situation is nothing like u think it is there now.
what is said in arabic news,would change your opinion
or read http://angryarab.blogspot.gr/
















.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Hey guise, remember the Kurdistan Worker's Party? You know the guys who are fighting against Turkey and Syria to establish an indepedant socialist state? Why don't you support them instead of this going back and forth between Al Qaeda and some weird little bonopartisan fascist no one cares about.

[andyx1205]

http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/?p=16906

Chemical Weapons in Syria: Fact, Fiction, and Fib

"My guess is that what’s happening is that some intelligence agencies are really picking up signals of WMD motion on the ground, but that the dramatic “mixing sarin and putting it into bombs” info is pure propaganda. It seems designed to spook the public, make a case for intervention, and, to some extent, force the hand of the Obama administration.

In the unlikely event that Assad has really started activating his WMD capacity, it could be for a military purpose or as a political signal. There are basically three things he would be interested in: 1) to threaten any would-be intervention force, e.g. Turkey, 2) to remind everyone that he could carry out a lethal last strike on Israel if the regime falls, 3) possibly, to shift chemical material over to allies in Lebanon, to create a kind of second-strike capability if the regime is attacked and unable to respond.

None of these things involve gassing populated areas in Syria with air-dropped bombs. It could perhaps be done, but it would be hugely counter-productive, not least in terms of an international response, and it’s obviously dangerous on a complex close-quarters battlefield such as Syria’s. It is certainly possible that the regime could have an internal meltdown and start making irrational choices, but so far its decision-makers seem to be acting rationally and in their own best interest. Given that, they’re not going to be poison-gassing Aleppo anytime soon.

On the other hand, some opposition groups and their sympathizers try to plant these stories all the time. As you’ll remember, there was a similar WMD scare in Syria in the summer. That time, US officials eventually came forth and said that they were reassured that Syria had their WMD under control – reassured by Syria itself, I imagine. There’s an odd confluence of interests here. Neither Obama nor Assad want the media to report that a publicly declared US red line has been breached, since that would compel the US to either do something or lose face.

All that said, I think it’s very likely that Assad is currently shifting around his WMD infrastructure to retain control over it, which would mean there is some actual motion on the ground. For example, one of the main chemical warfare installations is allegedly in al-Safira (S/E of Aleppo). That means it would be liable to fall into rebel hands as of right now, if Assad didn’t do something about it. SCUD launch pads and other relevant material would also have to be brought out of rebel reach, or away from areas that have been deprived of effective SAM cover through the loss of air defense installations – rebels are taking these in large numbers. So it’s not surprising at all that the regime is moving stuff around."

[andyx1205]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/bashar-alassad-syria-and-the-truth-about-chemical-weapons-8393539.html

Robert Fisk's take on the subject.

[piet11111]

On the Iskander missile


The launch installation has two missiles with a range of 280 kilometers. Each missile has a 480 kilogram warhead consisting of 54 elements. The system can be used against small and large targets. The Iskander missile can easily overcome air defense systems. It's almost impossible to prevent a launch of an Iskander missile because of the system's mobility. Targets can be found not only by satellite and aircraft but also by a conventional intelligence center and by a soldier who directs artillery fire. Targets can also be found from photos, which will be put into a computer by means of a scanner. The self-direction device functions even in fog or darkness. Only the Iskander system can accomplish such tasks. The United States has tried to reconsider the missile technology control regime and here arises the question whether this may be an obstacle for the sale of the new missile abroad. Such missile systems as Iskander have a special place in the world weapons market. Even a small amount of such missiles drastically changes the balance of force in conflicts. According to Nikolay Guschin, chief and senior designer of the Machinebuilding Design Office, the complex is meant ' for covertly preparing and launching effective missile strikes at small-size targets of particular importance. A specificity of this complex is the high level of automation in the pre-launch preparations little time required to make it ready, and the high precision of shooting. https://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/theater/ss-26.htm

I think its interesting that Russia would supply a surface to surface missile system instead of an anti air defense system.
If they supplied something like the S-300 they would make an air attack on Syria almost impossible due to the heavy casualty's it would inflict.

[Avanti]

"The FSA insurgents.. make a kid behead an unarmed prisoner! "
BBDXnNfgEoY









away from revleft they do.pkk and linked groups are with the regime side.

every revolution

demands

a blood sacrifice

[hetz]

Fucking animals.

[Avanti]

Fucking animals.

both sides

are committing

cruelty

the goal

should be

the breakdown

of the syrian state

of all states

when there is

no state

to wank on

for self-declared

god-kings

violence

will shrink

[Flying Purple People Eater]

"The FSA insurgents.. make a kid behead an unarmed prisoner! "
BBDXnNfgEoY









away from revleft they do.pkk and linked groups are with the regime side.
Fucking hell, that's absolutely horrible. I can't believe there are some leftists here who are making apologisms for the repulsive, far-right FSA simply because they're 'rebelling against de systemz' - even worse than the Assad apologists, methinks.

If these fucks get into power, there'll be ethnic cleansing ahoy. Solidarity with everyone who's (or is going to) coming under fire from both the 'rebels' and the government.

[Avanti]

Fucking hell, that's absolutely horrible. I can't believe there are some leftists here who are making apologisms for the repulsive, far-right FSA simply because they're 'rebelling against de systemz' - even worse than the Assad apologists, methinks.

If these fucks get into power, there'll be ethnic cleansing ahoy. Solidarity with everyone who's (or is going to) coming under fire from both the 'rebels' and the government.

they won't

take power

syria

will

become

like somalia

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I wonder the extent to which Russia would become involved if Assad used chemical weapons. Seems surreal to believe they would commit large amounts of troops to Syria (though it is not impossible by any means).

[hetz]

Russia will not send troops to Syria. Turkey can close the Dardanelles in case of such an escalation and with a no-flight zone over Syria no one would be stupid enough to try and transport troops by air.
Russia will almost certainly abstain from sending soldiers anyway, there would be a huge backlash at home and huge pressure from the international community, not to mention what that would mean for the Syrian regime itself. Russians still remember Afghanistan, and how their invasion homogenized the "rebels" there.

[l'Enfermé]

Russia has literally no important interests in Syria at all, why is anyone mentioning them?

And guys, why are so outraged? The kid is just beheading an Alawite apostate! Apostasy is a crime that necessitates beheading! Down with Shia apostates! Long live the Caliphate!

[Sasha]

Russia has literally no important interests in Syria at all, why is anyone mentioning them?

And guys, why are so outraged? The kid is just beheading an Alawite apostate! Apostasy is a crime that necessitates beheading! Down with Shia apostates! Long live the Caliphate!


yeah, summary executions are only allowed in of the name of the writings and/or to consolidate the power of secular bearded/mustached strongmen, not religious ones... sheesh... :rolleyes:

[hetz]

yeah, summary executions are only allowed in of the name of the writings and/or to consolidate the power of secular bearded/mustached strongmen, not religious ones... sheesh...We, as true democrats, should "allow" ( what a choice of words! ) summary executions in the name of both the writings and/or to consolidate the power of secular bearded/mustached strongmen and the religious ones.
The question isn't "who's the biggest bad guy" ( even though it's the rebels ), the question is whether a Baathist or an Islamist Syria.

[piet11111]

Russia has literally no important interests in Syria at all, why is anyone mentioning them?

The Tartus naval base is the only one on the mediterranean they have left after they lost Libya along with the billions of euro's worth of investments in the Syrian economy.
And Syria and Iran are the last country's in the middle east that are friendly to Russia.

If Syria falls its only a matter of time until Russia is thrown out of the middle east.

[Jack]

Hey guise, remember the Kurdistan Worker's Party? You know the guys who are fighting against Turkey and Syria to establish an indepedant socialist state? Why don't you support them instead of this going back and forth between Al Qaeda and some weird little bonopartisan fascist no one cares about.

FSA killing Kurdish protestors and fighting with Kurdish militia:
http://world.time.com/2012/11/05/syrias-kurds-civil-wars-within-a-civil-war/

PKK accuses rebels of targeting Kurdish neighborhoods in Aleppo:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2012-10/28/c_123878679.htm

PKK threatens to turn Kurdistan into a Warzone if Turkey enters Syria:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/22/us-syria-turkey-kurds-idUSBRE82L0UH20120322

[brigadista]

not very scientific i know but frankly this is all heartbreaking

[Jack]

Rebels fighting against Kurds:

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/8/58675/World/Region/Dozens-die-as-Kurds,-rebels-clash-in-northern-Syri.aspx

Really the evidence is everywhere.

[The Intransigent Faction]

So the Obama Administration has declared a part of the Syrian rebels as a terrorist front: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/11/us-blacklists-syria-al-nusra-front-terrorist

What do you all make of this? What sort of effect will it have, and if the Syrian rebellion is really all some sort of covert NATO operation, why would they so openly make this kind of statement?

[Geiseric]

this is after everybody, and i mean everybody has known this for a very long time. It's no secret the islamists all through the arab spring get NATO aid and weaponry. That doesn't mean the former bourgeois dictators are worth supporting though, they're still bourgeois to the core, trying to carve out their own slice of the pie.

[Paul Pott]

The OP and everyone who brushed aside the concerns of anti-imperialists in this thread should feel extremely stupid now, since it's clear this was alarmist propaganda and Assad isn't planning to use his arsenal. Like everyone didn't know that before.

But I still wouldn't put it past the left wing of liberalism to cheer intervention against the "dictator who is killing his own people".


So the Obama Administration has declared a part of the Syrian rebels as a terrorist front

What do you all make of this? What sort of effect will it have, and if the Syrian rebellion is really all some sort of covert NATO operation, why would they so openly make this kind of statement?

The effect it will have is that the whole world will recognize what Syria has for a long time - that the loyalists are fighting jihadists. Hopefully it will also mean that the left who has painted such a rosy picture of the anti-Assad "revolutionaries" will come down to join the rest of us on earth. The specific outfit the US has recognized as a "terrorist" group is called Jabhat al-Nusra. The only reason it stands out from the scads of other islamists battalions (who signed a petition in solidarity with it after the US labeled it bad) is that it's quite simply the most militarily effective division of all of the rebels. All recent rebel gains you've heard about have been the work of al-Nusra. Indeed, the Free Syrian Army isn't what it used to be around late 2011 (and has been thoroughly infested with jihadists as well), and the Syrian National Council, which at first everyone thought was going to be the equivalent of the National Transitional Council in Libya (and iirc, is actually still recognized as the "legitimate" Syrian government by the stooges in Libya), has been totally sidelined in favor of an alphabet soup of other out of touch hand-picked exiles with London accents, like the Syrian Opposition Coalition.

The reason al-Nusra has been labelled a terrorist org is that the US is concerned it will lose control of the rebellion, and if the islamists are not "isolated" and the hand-picked liberals somehow put back as the leading rebel factions, even if Assad is overthrown, it will be next to impossible to bring Syria into the NATO orbit like Libya, short of invasion. This looks like it's already starting to backfire. Actually, one of the current rebel slogans is “No to American intervention, for we are all Jabhat al-Nusra”. It should be noted that that group has many fighters from the former Sunni Iraqi resistance.

Even so, the rebels continue to receive aid, especially from US client regimes like Saudi Arabia and Qatar, who run glossy news agencies like Al-Jazeera with all the right western cultural cues that North Korean propaganda lacks, but absolutely freak out and go into butcher mode at the thought of democracy in their own neighborhood.

[Paul Pott]

Russia has significant investment in Syria. Assad is practically a Russian client.

[l'Enfermé]

yeah, summary executions are only allowed in of the name of the writings and/or to consolidate the power of secular bearded/mustached strongmen, not religious ones... sheesh... :rolleyes:
I haven't seen any beheadings or any other atrocities committed by government troops that I remember of. You could always show us some links if you want, though.

[Grenzer]

Bloody hell Russia & China! Do something! Are you just going to sit back and let the forces of darkness destroy yet another proud & independent Arab country? Might as well just invite them into Iran too! Lebanon will be turned into an Israeli puppet state and the Palestinians should just pack up and leave because nobody will lift a finger to help them either.

hi my little friend, it's been a while since I've heard from you last. So good to see you posting again ! Resist the forces of darkness, resist foreign imperialism!

[l'Enfermé]

The Tartus naval base is the only one on the mediterranean they have left after they lost Libya along with the billions of euro's worth of investments in the Syrian economy.
And Syria and Iran are the last country's in the middle east that are friendly to Russia.

If Syria falls its only a matter of time until Russia is thrown out of the middle east.
You will find that this famous Tartus naval base is a tiny thing that can't accommodate any of the major Russian warships, with a 4-member personnel and that Russian involvement in the Syrian economy is negligible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Syria).

[The Intransigent Faction]

The OP and everyone who brushed aside the concerns of anti-imperialists in this thread should feel extremely stupid now, since it's clear this was alarmist propaganda and Assad isn't planning to use his arsenal. Like everyone didn't know that before.

But I still wouldn't put it past the left wing of liberalism to cheer intervention against the "dictator who is killing his own people".



The effect it will have is that the whole world will recognize what Syria has for a long time - that the loyalists are fighting jihadists. Hopefully it will also mean that the left who has painted such a rosy picture of the anti-Assad "revolutionaries" will come down to join the rest of us on earth. The specific outfit the US has recognized as a "terrorist" group is called Jabhat al-Nusra. The only reason it stands out from the scads of other islamists battalions (who signed a petition in solidarity with it after the US labeled it bad) is that it's quite simply the most militarily effective division of all of the rebels. All recent rebel gains you've heard about have been the work of al-Nusra. Indeed, the Free Syrian Army isn't what it used to be around late 2011 (and has been thoroughly infested with jihadists as well), and the Syrian National Council, which at first everyone thought was going to be the equivalent of the National Transitional Council in Libya (and iirc, is actually still recognized as the "legitimate" Syrian government by the stooges in Libya), has been totally sidelined in favor of an alphabet soup of other out of touch hand-picked exiles with London accents, like the Syrian Opposition Coalition.

The reason al-Nusra has been labelled a terrorist org is that the US is concerned it will lose control of the rebellion, and if the islamists are not "isolated" and the hand-picked liberals somehow put back as the leading rebel factions, even if Assad is overthrown, it will be next to impossible to bring Syria into the NATO orbit like Libya, short of invasion. This looks like it's already starting to backfire. Actually, one of the current rebel slogans is “No to American intervention, for we are all Jabhat al-Nusra”. It should be noted that that group has many fighters from the former Sunni Iraqi resistance.

Even so, the rebels continue to receive aid, especially from US client regimes like Saudi Arabia and Qatar, who run glossy news agencies like Al-Jazeera with all the right western cultural cues that North Korean propaganda lacks, but absolutely freak out and go into butcher mode at the thought of democracy in their own neighborhood.

Thanks, that makes sense, except the part where you say people brushed aside concerns about the rebels. Anti-Assad does not equal Pro-FSA.

[hetz]

It probably isn't a very appropriate analogy, but didn't the communists "side with" the government during the Kapp Putsch?
What about Kornilov's offensive a few years earlier in Russia?
Of course the communists said that the government was still the enemy, but one was a more immediate threat. Lenin said "march separately, strike together".
Again, I'd appreciate a comment from the more knowledgeable members on this.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Islamists were not the main party behind those uprisings, though. In Libya and Syria, Islamists played a much bigger role throughout (plus the other rebels in Libya weren't much better).

And from what I understand, yeah, Islamists in Syria were pretty big from the early going.

I was under the impression that unemployed youth was the initial force of rebellion in mid February 2011, which isn't unlike Egypt, Tunisia, etc.

The beliefs of these people is probably another discussion entirely.

Radical Islam was a pretty big force in Yemen. al-Qaeda militias were capturing entire towns in Yemen during the height of the unrest there (which erupted into a full-blown war in Yemen's capital city), yet leftists supported that uprising, hoping that the president (a pro-American toadie) would be ousted.