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Hermes
5th December 2012, 23:16
Alright, this is probably really elementary, again, but I just want to make sure I've gotten this right, because I seem to have some trouble 'parsing' theory, so to speak.

Right now I'm at Part II, B. So, just to sum up, the Decembrists were arguing for a more centralized party that would be responsible for organizing, controlling funds, etc, while the 'young' members were opposed to this, preferring to defend "the main principles of the rules in the form in which they were published". What exactly were the current principles of the rules?

After this, the Russian government seized and imprisoned the majority of the Decembrists, leaving the 'young' to dominate the organization (the 'young' are also the Economists, right?). Then, according the Lenin, the Economists proceeded to abandon the political struggle in favor of the economic struggle, ayah?

Assuming I'm correct so far, this is where I get a little confused. From here, Lenin argues that the spontaneity of the Economists overwhelmed what little consciousness the workers had up to that point. He then quotes from Kautsky, who argues that socialist consciousness does not arise organically out of the class struggle, right? According to him, it has to be handed down from the intelligentsia to the worker. However, and I guess this is what's confusing me, in the notes he seems to contradict this and says that the workers themselves have this ability.

I guess, to put it simply, what is he arguing against here? I realize the broader argument that one needs theory in order to continue the struggle and develop consciousness, but is he saying that the workers can or can not do this themselves?Is he arguing that the working class needs leaders/intelligentsia, or that it would only help speed/begin the process?

Again, sorry if this was overly long and a really simple question.

Drosophila
5th December 2012, 23:26
Assuming I'm correct so far, this is where I get a little confused. From here, Lenin argues that the spontaneity of the Economists overwhelmed what little consciousness the workers had up to that point. He then quotes from Kautsky, who argues that socialist consciousness does not arise organically out of the class struggle, right? According to him, it has to be handed down from the intelligentsia to the worker. However, and I guess this is what's confusing me, in the notes he seems to contradict this and says that the workers themselves have this ability.

I guess, to put it simply, what is he arguing against here? I realize the broader argument that one needs theory in order to continue the struggle and develop consciousness, but is he saying that the workers can or can not do this themselves?Is he arguing that the working class needs leaders/intelligentsia, or that it would only help speed/begin the process?

Again, sorry if this was overly long and a really simple question.

The thing about "socialist consciousness" is the two of them speaking of the past; socialist consciousness did not arise spontaneously within the working class, but was handed down from intellectuals. That's what Lenin is getting at.

We actually have a whole group dedicated to WITBD:http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=1050

Hermes
5th December 2012, 23:31
The thing about "socialist consciousness" is the two of them speaking of the past; socialist consciousness did not arise spontaneously within the working class, but was handed down from intellectuals. That's what Lenin is getting at.

We actually have a whole group dedicated to WITBD:http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=1050

I noticed that, but I unfortunately don't have Lenin Rediscovered so I wasn't sure if I'd be posting in the right place.

So, since the 'seed' of socialist consciousness had already been passed down (is this what he was referring to when he was referencing the labor movement in Germany and their ability to work off of prior theoreticians such as Hegel, Owen, etc?), the job is now left to the working class (not necessarily exclusively, but the ability is there)?

Drosophila
5th December 2012, 23:47
I noticed that, but I unfortunately don't have Lenin Rediscovered so I wasn't sure if I'd be posting in the right place.

You don't have to have the book to participate. The point of the group is to outline the fundamental concepts so that people don't need to buy the book to understand it.


So, since the 'seed' of socialist consciousness had already been passed down (is this what he was referring to when he was referencing the labor movement in Germany and their ability to work off of prior theoreticians such as Hegel, Owen, etc?), the job is now left to the working class (not necessarily exclusively, but the ability is there)?

Basically. Using scientific socialism, the proletariat can now work as an independent class and carry out a socialist revolution.