Why are the nazis so much bigger than us online?

[Yazman]

Just wondering since, let me give an example. Stormfront dot org, which is like the white nationalist/nazi equivalent of Revleft for those who don't know, is MASSIVE compared to Revleft.

For example, at any given time on Stormfront there's usually ~1000 or so people online, posting & browsing.

Take a look at these stats:

Stormfront dot org:
Threads: 731,865, Posts: 9,524,742, Members: 258,778
Total members that have visited the forum in the last 24 hours: 2,018

Revleft.com:
Threads: 167,682, Posts: 2,458,021, Members: 23,166
Total members that have visited the forum in the last 24 hours: 459

Now you might think, "oh well they aren't as serious as us, they don't organise as much, they don't take their community as seriously". Well, let's look at the actual amount of funding they get from the community shall we? I think financial support from the community is a big deal:

Stormfront dot org:
November Total Donations: $6,584.00 Goal: $7,500.00
Source: http://www.***************/forum/t860284/ (stormfront dot org)

Revleft.com:
November Total Donations: $0.00 Goal: $200.00
Source: http://www.revleft.com/vb/misc.php?do=donlist

We didn't get anything, for a pitifully small goal of $200. Stormfront asked for $7500 in November ALONE, and they almost reached that goal.

Let's look at traffic. According to them, they get over 50,000 unique visitors per day! That's an astounding number.

Look at the Alexa traffic ratings (a measure of daily unique visitors & pageviews). Revleft is JUST in the top 200,000 websites by traffic rating at #189,546. Stormfront is in the top 25,000 at #21,035.

Revleft also happens to be the biggest forum for revolutionary leftists, while Stormfront is the biggest forum for white nationalists.

These are pretty frightening statistics for revolutionary leftists, in my opinion. We aren't even a blip on the radar compared to them. Furthermore, the amounts of money they can raise on a monthly basis alone is crazy. With one month's worth of Stormfront-level funding we could fund Revleft for a few years.

What are we doing wrong that they are bigger than us in every way? From community support, to size, to the number of members, to how active and serious they are, they dwarf us in every way. There is something seriously wrong there.

Just thought you would all be interested to see this, and what does everybody think?

[hetz]

Holy shit that's kind of scary. And sad.

[Questionable]

Because all the actual communist movements are out there doing things in real life instead of seeking comfort with their internet buddies?

Not trying to be sarcastic, but that's what I always chalked it up to. I mean, just look at the geographic distribution of Revleft. Most of us aren't in any kind of revolutionary situation.

I also want to point out the amount of users on Stormfront who are completely batshit and are more likely to shoot up a mall than do any real organizing.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Not to dismiss the discrepancy you've pointed out at all, but just to take a shot at the general question, for one thing a lot of our members here are younger and in places with little acess to struggle whereas in the Bay Area, for example, there are hundreds of organized revolutionaries (still small in the big picture) with hundreds more people who are supporters or not in a organization or affinity group - while on RevLeft there are just maybe a half dozen posters from this area - and many haven't been posting much since Occupy. In contrast, fascists might get away with some causal racist arguments IRL, but they probably aren't handing out fliers at the mall (typically they "drop fliers" rather than personally associate themselves with the loathsome propaganda they want to dissiminate). So while these kinds of forums are attractive to high school or maybe suburban leftists, most people I know in Occupy or in my Rev. group or other Rev. groups are on tons of listserves, blogs, in addition to daily real life activity and organizing. In fact I persoally would not post here as much if I didn't have a job with lots of down-time in front of a computer (I'd blast this place with words only once a week probably).

I also think we should do a better job of being welcoming because we do seem to have a young demographic and I think we need to create more space for people who may be new to revolutionary politics (and maybe not fully convinced yet either) and are still developing their ideas. It's tricky because we also don't want to be flooded with liberals and so on, so it's a hard balence at a time when people are becoming interested in things like Occupy and so on, but there hasn't been much of a Left traddition in many of the countries our members are from.

[Yazman]

Because all the actual communist movements are out there doing things in real life instead of seeking comfort with their internet buddies?

Not trying to be sarcastic, but that's what I always chalked it up to. I mean, just look at the geographic distribution of Revleft. Most of us aren't in any kind of revolutionary situation.

I also want to point out the amount of users on Stormfront who are completely batshit and are more likely to shoot up a mall than do any real organizing.

They have more people from almost every region Revleft has people from, though, and the average Stormfront user is the same demographic as with Revleft - both sites are largely 18-24 males according to Alexa. They even have substantial percentages of people from countries like China and India. Actually I was quite surprised to see those percentages, 2-3% from China for example - that's around 5000 people. Why would Chinese people go to Stormfront?

[Rafiq]

1. Most stormfronters are antisocial freaks.

2. We don't have rich ass petite bourgeois scum who live in like Florida or something

3. It is impossible for those racists to say what they do in real life so fkmor them internet is logical choice.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

You're still only talking 7 grand a month. They're still miniscule and a total irrelevance, as are we.

[Yazman]

It still blows me away that they get a few thousand people from countries like India, Indonesia, and China visiting on the regular. How do we explain this? They can't all be expatriates, can they? I guess given Hitler's popularity in India that could explain most of the Indian users going there, but what about those from China for example? That is a really bizarre discovery to be honest.


1. Most stormfronters are antisocial freaks.

2. We don't have rich ass petite bourgeois scum who live in like Florida or something

3. It is impossible for those racists to say what they do in real life so fkmor them internet is logical choice.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

I don't know about the first point as I haven't really visited Stormfront's boards enough to really judge how they behave socially over there. So I can't really comment on this.

I think the second point here is a really good point Rafiq. They probably do have a fair few rich as hell people. For example, you look at their November donations list and it lists the members - by and large most of them are between $30-100, but there was one (anonymous) donor who put in just over $1000. Probably they do have quite a few wealthy members, especially given their movements are not necessarily hostile to the wealthy like we are.

I think your third point as well is reasonable. While revolutionary left politics are generally rejected in the mainstream in many countries it isn't really considered to be abhorrent or universally reviled like white nationalism & nazism are. So that's a good point. They can't really say what they say irl so logically that could be a big reason why they have such a strong online presence. I think this makes sense too, especially considering the amount of racists on sites like 4chan who only seem to say their racist shit on the internet (and never in real life) since they know they would get their ass kicked.


You're still only talking 7 grand a month. They're still miniscule and a total irrelevance, as are we. Well, that's true. But they still dwarf us in a major, major way. I think given their size and scale it's really a bit too much to just dismiss it. There's clearly a hell of a lot more of them than there are of us going by their numbers, even if they aren't as organised as we are.

[hetz]

What's really sad is that they seem to be more internationalist ( :rolleyes: ) than us.
Hell, they might even have more non-white people than revleft, if statistics are to be trusted.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I've seen a hell of a lot of Chinese people post on English far-right forum boards. It seems they view the growing 'muslim' population in China like the Hindu Nationalists do of 'muslims' in India. The white supremacism is a fad too, which is pretty fucking weird considering white has always originally just meant 'western European' really.

[Avanti]

white nationalism

better corresponds

to the reality

of the white

working class male

than

communism

i have never seen

a white industrial worker

on a demonstration

against racism

against homophobia

against cuts

the white

working class male

views himself

as threatened

by the

increasingly brown

underclass

and by women

gays, lesbians, bisexuals

while

he identifies

himself

with the white establishment

capitalists, patriarchal bosses

steering the economy

he doesn't starve

he is threatened to fall

in the class ladder

but he will defend

his position

the white male workers

have a lot to lose

by women's rights

by feminism

by immigration

their privileges

threatened

besides

nazism

is a cool ideology

because

if you are a nazi

you're not just another loser

you are

a soldier

of white gondor

against

the brown and black hordes

of mordor

storming against

the elvish west

orcish hordes

you are a hero

in an on-going struggle

for everything

that is good

and noble

that's how a nazi thinks

[Philosophos]

Well we are less than them because we actually think and that's something that terrors most people. At the same time most people grew up with the logic of the bad communist and good nationalist. At the same time we can't be organised at every place. For example in big cities the left organisations have lots of members and it influences the masses.

Where I am the only known "political logic" is "let the family be well and screw the rest" and "nation is the best, religion is unquestionable, gays and communists are the threat for paradise"... Just imagine that these views are almost in every god damn forgotten corner of the earth and every uneducated person falls for them.

At the same time because we actually make our brains work the revolutionary left has so many tendencies. It's only logical each person has a different point of view so the outcome will be (guess what) LOTS OF TENDENCIES!

The reason these idiots have more members is because they only have one ideology in their heads: Kill everyone who's different. They don't have to think they just beat the crap out of anyone they see. Not thinking is their selter.

One more thing about us. Which one do you think is hardest: Changing all of your beliefs or keeping the same you were raised with? I will automaticly assume you answer the first one and that is the truth. So since most people are not raised in socialist families (otherwise we would have socialism or an attempt for socialism somewhere) we almost all were raised with capitalonationalreligion etc etc ideas. When I was 13 I started to actually question things and tried to find the root/cause of things. So I started thinking. So I started realising that all my beliefs (ex nationalist, anti-gay fascist) were completely wrong and that they had no actual logical basis. So I started searching for different ideologies all by myself. I had noone to support me and I was miserable. I was crying all the time and I was wondering why nobody around me can see that what they believe (fascist ideas etc) are something wrong and ilogical. Who do you think has the willpower do go through such a change if everyone around him/her don't support him/her and they actually believe in the exact opposite ideas?

Last but not least the money issue. I have lots of expences and I'm low on cash. At the same time I want to go to the university and I have to pay a hell lot of money (free education in Greece for the win) for almost everything. At the same time I have my acting classes and I have to pay there too because the fucked up director thinks we own him money for his "taaaalent". My parents bearly pay the bills and I bearly save some money for my entairtenment. I suppose most of the people here have the same issues so do you really think that we are going to pay to maintain this forum? I wish I had 10 euros extra ,and I would deffinately donate them here because this forum is really something, but I don't.
If these fanatical idiots want to spent all their parents' money to their forum (I doupt this money is theirs and not their parents') then let them do it. Just see the difference: We ask for 200$ and they ask 7k+. I can't imagine what kind of programs they run and they need so much money for maintenance.

Anyway I don't think the fascists are a big threat, humans have an instict to realise their very stupid actions and they will overthrow fascism one way or another. The real problem here is the father of fascism (guess who) capitalism.... He's very good at hidding and people don't seem to realise his monstrous nature :(

[hetz]

Why are people here so cheap though?
I mean, shit, there must be at least someone with a decent job, no ?

[NGNM85]

I'm not particularly concerned about the difference in terms of fundraising. I think, as some have already mentioned, this partly due to demographics. I would bet the median age on Stormfront is significantly higher than RevLeft's. The real issue is membership size, and traffic, that, I should say, is a very serious concern, not in terms of Stormfront's membership, which is arbitrary, but in general. That's definitely something worth taking note of. However; this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. I'm certainly not surprised.

[Avanti]

I'm not particularly concerned about the difference in terms of fundraising. I think, as some have already mentioned, this partly due to demographics. I would bet the median age on Stormfront is significantly higher than RevLeft's. The real issue is membership size, and traffic, that, I should say, is a very serious concern, not in terms of Stormfront's membership, which is arbitrary, but in general. That's definitely something worth taking note of. However; this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. I'm certainly not surprised.

give me

power

over revleft

and soon

you would have

one million

visits

every day

[DDR]

give me

power

over revleft

and soon

you would have

one million

visits

every day

For once, I agree with you ;)

[prolcon]

Troll accounts. Everybody, calm the fuck down.

[NGNM85]

Troll accounts. Everybody, calm the fuck down.

I have no doubt that Stormfront experiences more than it's fair share of trolls, however; the discrepency in posts, and membership size simply cannot be accounted for by this, alone. Again; I don't think we should be wasting any time pondering what goes on at Stormfront. The much more important questions are; why isn't our membership greater? Why aren't more people joining? We don't have to look very far to find the answers.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I have no doubt that Stormfront experiences more than it's fair share of trolls, however; the discrepency in posts, and membership size simply cannot be accounted for by this, alone. Again; I don't think we should be wasting any time pondering what goes on at Stormfront. The much more important questions are; why isn't our membership greater? Why aren't more people joining? We don't have to look very far to find the answers.

I bet you think it's because we're insufficiently supplicant to the Democrats. Sorry we can't all be wonkish prats. Actually, I'm not sorry. I'm glad we're not all beholden to a capitalist party like you are.

[prolcon]

I bet you think it's because we're insufficiently supplicant to the Democrats. Sorry we can't all be wonkish prats. Actually, I'm not sorry. I'm glad we're not all beholden to a capitalist party like you are.

Where in the absolute fuck did that come from?!

[Rugged Collectivist]

Where in the absolute fuck did that come from?!

That was a pretty typical response to anything NGNM says. I know you probably couldn't tell from the quoted post, but he has quite the reputation for being a shitty liberal "anarchist".

I won't comment on this myself. I'm just trying to explain where the hostility is coming from.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Because all the actual communist movements are out there doing things in real life instead of seeking comfort with their internet buddies?

Not trying to be sarcastic, but that's what I always chalked it up to. I mean, just look at the geographic distribution of Revleft. Most of us aren't in any kind of revolutionary situation.

I also want to point out the amount of users on Stormfront who are completely batshit and are more likely to shoot up a mall than do any real organizing.

You are right.
We can take into account that stormfront is more heard of than revleft. Revleft has stalinist type measures when dealing with people of other ideologies, so it is obvious why it has less members. Revleft is not the only socialist forum, and I doubt it is the biggest.


he has quite the reputation for being a shitty liberal "anarchist".

For a second I thought you were talking about me...

I know a big chunk of my family is made up of social-democratic communists, and stalinist party-fanatics, and none of them know revleft.

[Comrade #138672]

I've noticed this too. I was shocked by it aswell.

I wouldn't say that they are necessarily 'anti-social' or that they fear inquiry. People seem to think that - and I used to think this too - Fascists are idiots. Even though Marxism is superior, we should not underestimate them and think that they are stupid. Instead we should take them serious and try to anticipate their moves.

Also, the Left is still recovering from a beating by Neoliberalism the last 20 years. It's easier for a right-wing conservative to move towards Fascism than Socialism.

[NGNM85]

I bet you think it's because we're insufficiently supplicant to the Democrats. Sorry we can't all be wonkish prats. Actually, I'm not sorry. I'm glad we're not all beholden to a capitalist party like you are.

It's kind of sad to see you sinking to this level. Oh well.

The record, which is conveniently archived for everyone to see, will reflect that this is a total mischaracterization, in fact, a near complete inversion of my previous relevent statements. A piece of unsolicited advice; if you're going to pull things out of your ass, like that, try not to make it something that can be so easily disproven. I mean, I know any condemnation of me will get Thanked, regardless of it's factual accuracy, but you can do a lot better than that. Regardless; even though your accusation is very clearly disingenuous; no, that's not what I had in mind.

[NGNM85]

That was a pretty typical response to anything NGNM says.

Yes. To be fair; it's a hell of a lot easier to demonize somebody than actually argue with them.


I know you probably couldn't tell from the quoted post, but he has quite the reputation for being a shitty liberal "anarchist".

This is also true, however; these accusations are baseless, as the record will clearly demonstrate I am, and have always been, an entirely philosophically consistent Anarchist.

[Avanti]

white nationalism

is a simple ideology too

it can be explained

in one minute

we need an ideology

that is even dumber

being dumb

is being strong

[Comrade Samuel]

Idiocy is easy, communism is hard.

[NGNM85]

I suppose, I should preface my remarks by saying that I am speaking, essentially, exclusively, in terms of the United States, which, perhaps I should have claified earlier. Anyhow... The biggest problem is that the Radical Left has gotten to state where it is becoming increasingly ineffectual. The Radical Left is not significantly engaged in labor struggles. It's not significantly involved in fighting for gay rights, or reproductive rights. No-one is proposing any kind of serious initiative, or agenda beyond The Revolution, which becomes increasingly absurd as we become, as I said earlier, increasingly irrelevent to the public at large. This is because of an insane, idealistic puritanical impulse which makes it impossible to form broader coalitions, or do anything at all. As long as any form of compromise, or incrementalism is regarded as ideological treason progress is simply impossible. Paradoxically, the modern Radical Left appears to be deeply committed to maintaining the status quo, at all costs.

[graffic]

Perhaps there is some truth in stereotype of social inadequates using the internet as a communication medium. I have also been shocked at the number of fascists and fascost sentiment that pops up all over the net. Youtube comments for example and type in "New World Order" on google and look at the barmy stuff that comes up.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Also, maybe even more important, to use up as much space as possible so that people have to pay attention at least minimally.

Technology has already won that battle. There's this little button on my mouse which disengages the ratchet on the scroll-wheel so it can spin freely. When pressed I can spin on through long web pages/posts as fast as I like. If not that, there's always the PgUp/PgDn keys.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

we need an ideology

that is even dumber

being dumb

is being strong

Anarcho-punk?

MAKE, TOTAL, DESTROY!!!

[Aussie Trotskyist]

Umm, while I'm also put off by Avanti's writing style as much as the next man, I don't think this is the time for us to start fighting ourselves.

Where far outnumbered (and probably out gunned) by fascists. Although I think that may simply because it sounds 'cool' to 15 year olds who have an orgasm over nazi militaria.

[Balocheski]

(Oh, Hi! Greenhorn here.)

Oddly, I wanted to join that site just to tell them how silly their beliefs are. Good thing I didn't, otherwise that would have been a day(or a week, depending on the number of boneheads replying) wasted.

Instead of wasting time studying an immature destructive ideology based on half-baked myths, I ended up here.

[Yazman]

This thread isn't for discussing Avanti, guys. Keep it on topic.

[Jason]

People get off on racial hate. Hate is always more popular than love. :)

[Ocean Seal]

For what its worth, I remember the stats being a lot more miserable last year. When IIRC they outnumbered us 10:1 in pretty much every member related category. Anyway, the internet attracts a lot of weird fucks and angsty teens, who are probably turned off by the level of pretension and agression on this site.

We really have to work the fuck on saying hello.
It seems that with every new member that joins there are always a chorus of people telling them to GTFO and that they're politics are whack. Not everyone knows everything from the beginning you pricks. When I first joined this forum, I thought that the cops were nice guys and that Pope John Paul II was the best thing since sliced bread. People learn dammit.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Where in the absolute fuck did that come from?!

It comes from our justified intolerance of 'Anarchists' who support fucking Obama.

[TheCat'sHat]

An early communist agitator summed it up pretty well, actually.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

As ppl already menthioned, I also think that we as leftists have more reasons to not hang around online all the time. There is a bigger arena of oppurtunitis for leftists. More parties one-task organizations, unions and so on. For a nazi is not that many options, so that might be why they want to protect their beloved Stormfront so much. Whatever it takes cuz they have nothing else....:D

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

An early communist agitator summed it up pretty well, actually.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Jesus was not a communist agitator. He was a Jewish heretic, assuming he actually was a historical person, which is dubious.

[TheCat'sHat]

Jesus was not a communist agitator. He was a Jewish heretic, assuming he actually was a historical person, which is dubious.

My use of the phrase 'communist agitator' was intended to be tongue in cheek since that particular phrase usually denotes a type of political activity that is obviously not attributable to the Jesus of the Gospels. I wasn't implying that Jesus rode around on the trains and tried to organize the Russian peasantry into political activism. But the early Christian communities described in Acts would be describable as communist, although obviously not Marxist.

Acts 2:44-45

And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

I don't know if Jesus was actually a Jewish heretic. I don't think that enough is know about his actual views to say for sure which sects he actually adhered to and what his particular views were. Obviously the movement he initiated developed into a religion that would be heretical by Jewish standards.

Regarding your view that the historical Jesus did not exist. You're obviously welcome to have whatever pet theory you wish but that's not the mainstream scholarly view and is a more of less fringe position in the scholarship of antiquity.

[Ostrinski]

Also interesting is that some of their members have tens of thousands of posts. I only know of a couple off the top of my head that have over ten thousand (one of them Noxion :D). Rosa Lichtenstein had 17,000, RedAnarchist has 13,000, Children of the Revolution has 10,000. I am sure there are a few others but those are the only ones I could think of/find at the moment. While at Sf they have posters with literally dozens of thousands of posts.

How old is Stormfront?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

My use of the phrase 'communist agitator' was intended to be tongue in cheek since that particular phrase usually denotes a type of political activity that is obviously not attributable to the Jesus of the Gospels. I wasn't implying that Jesus rode around on the trains and tried to organize the Russian peasantry into political activism. But the early Christian communities described in Acts would be describable as communist, although obviously not Marxist.

Acts 2:44-45

And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

That's religious communalism, not communism. Do you know what the difference is, and why it is important?


I don't know if Jesus was actually a Jewish heretic. I don't think that enough is know about his actual views to say for sure which sects he actually adhered to and what his particular views were. Obviously the movement he initiated developed into a religion that would be heretical by Jewish standards.

If we don't know for sure his theological position, how can anyone honestly call themselves a Christian?


Regarding your view that the historical Jesus did not exist. You're obviously welcome to have whatever pet theory you wish but that's not the mainstream scholarly view and is a more of less fringe position in the scholarship of antiquity.

Wannabe messiahs abound wherever messianic creeds exist - actual messiahs are vanishingly rare. Which way do you think the balance of probability leans?


Also interesting is that some of their members have tens of thousands of posts. I only know of a couple off the top of my head that have over ten thousand (one of them Noxion :D). Rosa Lichtenstein had 17,000, RedAnarchist has 13,000, Children of the Revolution has 10,000. I am sure there are a few others but those are the only ones I could think of/find at the moment. While at Sf they have posters with literally dozens of thousands of posts.

To add some perspective, I've been here just over 9 years (I was here when it was Ikonboard, before the switch to phpBB! I also think there was another one in between those), and have averaged just over three posts a day, which doesn't seem all that much to me. Three posts could easily be done in part of an evening.


How old is Stormfront?

According to Wikipedia, it goes back to the bulletin board systems of the early 90s.

[TheCat'sHat]

That's religious communalism, not communism. Do you know what the difference is, and why it is important?

I don't.




If we don't know for sure his theological position, how can anyone honestly call themselves a Christian?

The proto-Orthodox faction of the early Christians won out over the numerous other competing early Christian movements and their presentation of Jesus gained hegemony and eventually evolved into the various forms of Christianity that exist today. How can somebody therefore honestly call themselves a Christian? They believe that the views they espouse are those that Jesus taught? Obviously I think that they are wrong but I wouldn't say that they are being dishonest. They're just incorrect.



Wannabe messiahs abound wherever messianic creeds exist - actual messiahs are vanishingly rare. Which way do you think the balance of probability leans?

I don't understand your question. You seem to be conflating the question of whether Jesus was a messiah or the second person of the trinity with the question of whether the historical figure Jesus existed. These are two very different questions. A man named Jesus almost certainly began a religious/political movement and was crucified by the Romans. The question of what he taught and which of the early movements most closely represent his actual claims is a matter of dispute.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I don't.

The difference is context, and it's important because the struggle to create a new kind of society is the antithesis of the Christian ideal to be "in this world but not of it".


The proto-Orthodox faction of the early Christians won out over the numerous other competing early Christian movements and their presentation of Jesus gained hegemony and eventually evolved into the various forms of Christianity that exist today. How can somebody therefore honestly call themselves a Christian? They believe that the views they espouse are those that Jesus taught? Obviously I think that they are wrong but I wouldn't say that they are being dishonest. They're just incorrect.

Good point. Most Christians are gravely misinformed about their own religion. But the churches like that because it makes congregations easier to control. But there's also more than one person running around claiming to have found the true teachings of Jesus, usually based on their own interpretation of Scripture. Those people don't have that excuse.


I don't understand your question. You seem to be conflating the question of whether Jesus was a messiah or the second person of the trinity with the question of whether the historical figure Jesus existed. These are two very different questions. A man named Jesus almost certainly began a religious/political movement and was crucified by the Romans. The question of what he taught and which of the early movements most closely represent his actual claims is a matter of dispute.

There are more con-men and wannabe cult leaders around than people with genuine philosophical or spiritual insights, right? So regardless of whether or not Jesus was the Son of God, the odds are against him being a religious figure worthy of consideration.

[l'Enfermé]

One of the main reasons is probably the complete incompetence and pettiness of the administration. It's like they want everyone to hate revleft.

[Jason]

It comes from our justified intolerance of 'Anarchists' who support fucking Obama.

Right, a watered down socialism isn't helping real socialism. Why do people need real socialism when they become a democrat?

[GoddessCleoLover]

This thread seems to be going off in four different directions; 1) the boneheads' forum, 2) unfair restriction and bannings, 3) early Christian communalism, and 4) reformism/electoral participation.:confused:

[Lynx]

Stormfront attracts people who are driven and motivated by fear. RevLeft does not.

[Jason]

The election of Obama might make leftism status quo (so naturally people rebel against the status quo). But Obama isn't a hardcore leftist.

The right wing keeps spreading the lie that being white is becoming a crime.

[MaximMK]

Not just on the net they are more in the world. The youth is always more keen to join the right. Most of the youth in my country are dumb hooligans that are easy to brainwash with stupid ideas like nationalism that will give em reason to beat someone up. To be a leftist you need to understand why this system is bad and to be resistant to capitalist propaganda which is not everyone understands. Plus most people are pessimistic regarding a classless society.

[Marxaveli]

I dont see why, considering humans were organized in classless societies for easily 100,000+ years - until the Agricultural Revolution. Hunter/gatherer societies were no easy ordeal by any means, but we made it through obviously, and with so many tens of thousands of years of human and technological development between then and now, there is no reason to fear a classless society - except giving into the ideological state apparatus put forth by bourgeois propaganda.

[blake 3:17]

Thanks to the OP and the other folks in the thread.

Fascist and racists groups do grow better when people are feeling squeezed. They also don't have many of the outlets that the Left has and so need expression via a discussion board. I look at this board the most when I am least politically active.

I've a couple of other thoughts but will mention later... [which is maybe why far right media has more participation -- does anyone ever say "I need to think about it"?, no they fill zillions of pages and radio air time spewing some sense and a lot of nonsense -- I think the rationalism of the Left is good, the hyper-rationalism, not so]

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

They're bigger cause they're banned less

[thriller]

I think one should also look at the content of posts. The posts at SF are nowhere near the quality and length of the posts here. It will take me 20 minutes to get through a page on in-depth posts (all while clicking on links of sources when people provide them). Look at SF posts, it's mainly "dood, its totally the zog, everyone knows that. Hilter was a great artist" or copy-and-pastes.
Sure, they may have more total posts, visits, threads, and users. But we have more quality. That is what I prefer. And it's not like "The Revolution™" will happen from the interwebz.

[Ler]

Fascism, and 'White nationalism' are easier to understand, and much easier to get into - You don't have to read or understand tons of theory, you don't have to make any real, physically life altering commitments, and you don't have to truly think for yourself - And so long as you can hold your tongue a bit on the racism, your beliefs will be far more accepted in society than socialism. I really don't think that it should be very shocking that in our modern age, a nationalist community would be more popular than a socialist community - Especially given the terrible divisions, pety factionalism, and hostilities that exist within the radical left.

[Victoria Shmakova]

Sorry, but I couldn't help but LOL when I saw those comparisons.

[NGNM85]

It comes from our justified intolerance of 'Anarchists' who support fucking Obama.

How infantile. If you've got something to say to me, please display the courage, and maturity to address me, directly.

Since you brought it up, this statement is highly misleading. (Which, I believe, was your intention.) I've never expressed support for the President, in the sense that you're suggesting, quite the contrary. I merely noted (Correctly, I might add.) that he was/is better than the alternative.

Furthermore; your implication that political abstentionism is a fundamental tenet of Anarchism is incorrect. It is not.

[NGNM85]

One of the main reasons is probably the complete incompetence and pettiness of the administration. It's like they want everyone to hate revleft.

This is also an excellent point. One can hardly expect to expand the forum if we can't even hang on to the members we already have. Far too many members have been Banned, or Restricted for stupid reasons, (Something that L'Enferme, and I happen to have some personal experience with.) many of which have absolutely nothing to do with ideological consistency, more simply leave out of frustration. In particular, there is a vocal minority on this forum, composed of members and administrators, that sees themselves as the unofficial, unelected guardians of ideological purity. If these people had their way; the membership would be much lower than it already is. We can't possibly hope to expand if we are constantly pushing people out.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

How infantile. If you've got something to say to me, please display the courage, and maturity to address me, directly.


In particular, there is a vocal minority on this forum, composed of members and administrators, that sees themselves as the unofficial, unelected guardians of ideological purity. If these people had their way; the membership would be much lower than it already is.

Fucking hypocrite.

[NGNM85]

Fucking hypocrite.

There's a fundamental difference. Choler was deliberately distorting comments I had previously made, in a thread he knew I'd read, for the deliberate purpose of antagonizing me. That's infantile. My comments, on the other hand, in case it wasn't clear, (I assumed it was obvious.) was referring specifically to the; 'Combat Liberalism' usergroup, which specifically states it's objective is to purge members they have deemed ideologically impure, they've even got hit lists, in which I figure quite prominently. I've seen them. You can check them out, if you haven't. That's not a distortion, it's not slander. It's basically their official mission statement. That's the difference.

[zoot_allures]

Wow, that's pretty fucking depressing.

Unless it's because leftists put more effort into actually engaging with the real world, while fascists spend most of their time just chatting with other fascists online. That'd be cool (of course, it would mean that us lot are among the most useless and superfluous elements of leftism (no comment on others, but unfortunately that wouldn't be a surprising revelation in my case)).

[Yazman]

Fucking hypocrite.

Yo, you're getting awfully flamey, Noxion. You might want to delete that post and start contributing again. If you don't, I will. "I don't like NGNM85" isn't an excuse to make posts like that.

[hetz]

What kind of a communist forum doesn't purge its best and brightest members from time to time?
:p

[milkmiku]

Revleft is too strict and unforgiving. You fuck up on stormfront and they warn you. The mods actually respond to you if you pm them about an issue. Their community is not as uptight as this one. I've had an account there for about a year, back before I discovered Hatsune Miku and all her radiance, and I did nothing but post about food and never once got any flak from the staff.

Did you know they also have a tor portal and several active freesites? You know what revleft don't have? A tor portal or several active freesites.

funny that you'd mention the Chinese visitor stats, that is mostly Upper Class Chinese that actually register on Axliea tracking, most tech savvy internet goers in china use proxies and other methods of anonymity to browse foreign sites, so the number of visitors from china is quite higher, especially considering the large and powerful nationalist movements of the land.

Korea also has a large Nationalist group.

The Asian people love Hitler ans love their nationalism.


You talk down on people instead of uplifting them, I get the feeling that many here would be happier to simply kill all those who the disagree with.

I personally would like to behead those who insult Miku.

[the Left™]

Fascism has an insane cultural appeal. It literally is a neo-mythology that recreates existential struggle for the salvation of the earth into a racial politics and identity. Thats what we need. Something that really satiates people( not like racist struggle but something much more existential and fulfilling)

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Fascism has an insane cultural appeal. It literally is a neo-mythology that recreates existential struggle for the salvation of the earth into a racial politics and identity. Thats what we need. Something that really satiates people( not like racist struggle but something much more existential and fulfilling)
Well, it certainly isn't throwing molotovs at folks in suits and smashing car-door windows. I wouldn't like being set on fire at a demo by an ideological hack in a hoodie.

KICK. TO. THE. FUCKING. NETHERS.

[Victoria Shmakova]

I'd probably donate if the clout of being banned wasn't hanging over my shoulders. The issue with RevLeft is that *deleted to protect the legitimacy of RevLeft from naysayers*

[Rusty Shackleford]

Maybe because it is gratifying to see people who make ridiculous statements like this get banned rather than tolerate 4chanisation?


white nationalism

better corresponds

to the reality

of the white

working class male

than

communism

i have never seen

a white industrial worker

on a demonstration

against racism

against homophobia

against cuts

the white

working class male

views himself

as threatened

by the

increasingly brown

underclass

and by women

gays, lesbians, bisexuals

while

he identifies

himself

with the white establishment

capitalists, patriarchal bosses

steering the economy

he doesn't starve

he is threatened to fall

in the class ladder

but he will defend

his position

the white male workers

have a lot to lose

by women's rights

by feminism

by immigration

their privileges

threatened

besides

nazism

is a cool ideology

because

if you are a nazi

you're not just another loser

you are

a soldier

of white gondor

against

the brown and black hordes

of mordor

storming against

the elvish west

orcish hordes

you are a hero

in an on-going struggle

for everything

that is good

and noble

that's how a nazi thinks

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Hey, if 4chan-anonymous-lulzsec happened, maybe the 4chanisazation of revleft could be for the better.

1. Rev Chan
2. ?
3. Profit Communism

[freehobo]

Because "Nazis", as you characterize anybody of a Nationalist bent, are the immense silent majority. You don't meet many "Nazis" (immigration conservatives ) in real life because people are afraid of getting shouted down by the politically correct police. Conversely, it's perfectly tolerable to be a public Marxist. This gives you the illusion that leftism is more popular than it really is. The reality is that you guys are the minority, not those you call "Nazis" of "fascists" - who are not Nazis or fascists, just immigration conservatives. If you want to compare your numbers to ACTUAL Nazis/white supremacists/fascists, you would probably find the numbers are about the same as revolutionary leftists.

[Yazman]

Because "Nazis", as you characterize anybody of a Nationalist bent, are the immense silent majority. You don't meet many "Nazis" (immigration conservatives ) in real life because people are afraid of getting shouted down by the politically correct police. Conversely, it's perfectly tolerable to be a public Marxist. This gives you the illusion that leftism is more popular than it really is. The reality is that you guys are the minority, not those you call "Nazis" of "fascists" - who are not Nazis or fascists, just immigration conservatives. If you want to compare your numbers to ACTUAL Nazis/white supremacists/fascists, you would probably find the numbers are about the same as revolutionary leftists.

Maybe they aren't all nazis, but they are certainly white supremacists. Their forum states proudly in its banner: "white pride world wide".

By the way, I wasn't necessarily trying to suggest there's more of us than there are of them - by "why are they bigger" I was more hinting at a criticism of the revolutionary left movements as they are today. We're clearly doing something wrong if we can't even rival the size of white supremacists/nationalists/nazis on the internet.

[freehobo]

Maybe they aren't all nazis, but they are certainly white supremacists. Their forum states proudly in its banner: "white pride world wide".

By the way, I wasn't necessarily trying to suggest there's more of us than there are of them - by "why are they bigger" I was more hinting at a criticism of the revolutionary left movements as they are today. We're clearly doing something wrong if we can't even rival the size of white supremacists/nationalists/nazis on the internet.

I honestly don't see how "white pride world wide" equates to white supremacism. If you want to conclude that you would have to conclude that "gay pride" is a gay supremacist movement.

Don't get me wrong, I've no doubt there are a lot of Nazis and white supremacists on stormfront (I can see there are from the avatars :p), but there is nothing in their outward activism that is that.

[milkmiku]

We're clearly doing something wrong if we can't even rival the size of white supremacists/nationalists/nazis on the internet.

You're not very tolerable, not even In real life. I cannot stomach going to leftist gatherings because of the out right rudeness and attitude of everyone of them I meet.

In a way, the left as a whole needs to be more "religious" that is to say, "hate the sin and not the sinner", I said it before , people attack and put down far to often instead of enlightening and education. Everyone is just looking for an opportunity to get a "OH, sick burn broham" or show off their intellectual prowess. It turns people off.

Just go on video site and find any video of a "leftist" confronting or being confronted by someone.


Example

http://vimeo.com/44796073

This shit drives people away.


Ah yes, I mean "dumb" the message down, so many turn to Far right Ideals because they are easy to understand(x is physical and can be destroyed, let's kill it to fix y), while the far left tends to over complicate every fucking thing under the goddamn sun (x is caused by y which has an effect on z which causes further distress to r, to fix x we need to do c to r to relive pressure on z to open a cause way to b and then do g)

The Far right has a simple concise goal. Powerful wealthy support base and many leaders who are "common" men
The Far left does not and has a history of not being powered by "common" men.

[Valdemar]

The question was: "Why is Stormfront bigger then RevLeft"

I'll try to be short and quick,

The reason, in my opinion is that, Stormfront IS the forum of ALL right-wingers ( racist, white/black supremacist, racist, ultra-nationalist (French, German, Russian, Polish, you name it), theocratics, Strasserism, Nazbol,) and in fact they "welcome" even Leftists.

While RevLeft is NOT forum of all Leftists! Not even all Marxists and not even all Revolutionary Marxists! You can be Leftists, but if you are not Revolutionary one, then you are put in OI and Restricted. Even if you are Marxist and not revolutionary one you are restricted, and even if you Revolutionary Marxist and if you do not support LGBT struggle or abortion policy you are restricted.1*

And when you are restricted and outcasted and labelled as not "true" Leftist, not being able to post on 99% of forum or even in Language section where you could organize and meet fellow communist/leftist from same country, its hard to stay on forum and for some its hard to stay or be attracted to Leftist Ideology!

I might add that RevLeft is alienating newcomers (who are interested in socialism/communism) with its restrictive policy which gives image of Communism/Socialism as something where freedom is scarce and where indoctrination and one way thinking is rewarding. Today people value "freedom" and they Automatic think about USSR...

With those actions you are alienating newcomers and sending them directly to the Stormfront, not today but maybe tomorrow!

RevLeft is like club who was made by few friends, who do not like others to get into their club with different ideas and spoil their club. Lets face it, its more like Left-wing libertarian club then anything else...

Thats why RevLeft is smaller then StormFront and we are alienating future/young leftists and making our target population even smaller and sending them directly to StormFront.

1* That was only two examples, as we know You get infractoins and you can be restricted or banned for male chauvinism, sexism, or using words as (****) and many more!

[hetz]

When looking at some old threads I noticed how a lot of good and very good, knowledgeable posters got banned eventually. That's a shame.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

When looking at some old threads I noticed how a lot of good and very good, knowledgeable posters got banned eventually. That's a shame.

Tell me about it.:glare:

[Jason]

I honestly don't see how "white pride world wide" equates to white supremacism. If you want to conclude that you would have to conclude that "gay pride" is a gay supremacist movement.

Don't get me wrong, I've no doubt there are a lot of Nazis and white supremacists on stormfront (I can see there are from the avatars :p), but there is nothing in their outward activism that is that.

That forums is completely about "hate". The ethnic pride stuff is coverup.

As for myself, yeah, sure I don't feel it's wrong to be white, anymore than than it's wrong to anything else. But the point of stormfront is espouse hate and while there are some leftists, the vast majority favor free markets and hence the colonialism which supports it (claiming the conqured people's deserve to be colonized).

Many of them may claim to like Ron Paul, but the boneheads don't understand that free markets naturally lead to colonialism. Also, when the main target was "Communism", they were all for foreign intervention (via the US army). In fact, a lot of the hate movements arouse out of a 1960s backlash against the "Vietnam War Protests".

[Let's Get Free]

I'd say that for everyone that for every one person in America into revolutionary politics, there are at least 3 reactionaries.

[freehobo]

That forums is completely about "hate". The ethnic pride stuff is coverup.

As for myself, yeah, sure I don't feel it's wrong to be white, anymore than than it's wrong to anything else. But the point of stormfront is espouse hate and while there are some leftists, the vast majority favor free markets and hence the colonialism which supports it (claiming the conqured people's deserve to be colonized).

Many of them may claim to like Ron Paul, but the boneheads don't understand that free markets naturally lead to colonialism. Also, when the main target was "Communism", they were all for foreign intervention (via the US army). In fact, a lot of the hate movements arouse out of a 1960s backlash against the "Vietnam War Protests".

Yeah it might all be a coverup and conspiracy for their hate, but they could say that about revleft - that is it a coverup to impliment illuminati dominsation (knowing how paranoid some of them are, they probably would), it would have the same veracity - none.

[Jason]

Yeah it might all be a coverup and conspiracy for their hate, but they could say that about revleft - that is it a coverup to impliment illuminati dominsation (knowing how paranoid some of them are, they probably would), it would have the same veracity - none.

Ok, then what is the anti-Illuminati plan for raising the living standards in Latin America and elsewhere?

Guess what? There isn't one, because it's all about white supermacy. The white man is entitled to special rights and some illumanti conspiracy is trying to take them away. If there are any defects in capitalism, then they will blame it on Jews or say it's the fault of the people themselves. Or maybe the inequality was ordained by God, like the "divine right of Kings", that would be the neo-confederate position.

[freehobo]

Ok, then what is the anti-Illuminati plan for raising the living standards in Latin America and elsewhere?

Guess what? There isn't one, because it's all about white supermacy. The white man is entitled to special rights and some illumanti conspiracy is trying to take them away. If there are any defects in capitalism, then they will blame it on Jews or say it's the fault of the people themselves. Or maybe the inequality was ordained by God, like the "divine right of Kings", that would be the neo-confederate position.

I have no idea, I suppose you would have to ask them.

[Jason]

I have no idea, I suppose you would have to ask them.


Whatever the case, your equating Stormfront with some Scottish Heritage festival.

[Comrade Bong]

All the Nazis are fake NAZIs who are afraid to show their face in public. What they do is mainly PC posturing

[milkmiku]

Ok, then what is the anti-Illuminati plan for raising the living standards in Latin America and elsewhere?

Yes there is, here is their plan. Here it comes, you ready?

Step 1. Get rids of Jews some way, send them to the sun or something
Step 2. Force all the races to separate, by sending them to the sun or something.
Step 3. Get rid of "degenerate people", I don't know send them to the sun or something.
Step 4. Magic.


On the real though, their hatred comes from a perceived threat and refusing to understand why and how is a failure on your part, sure it is easy to point as say "they just hate'n" and when more and more people flock to far right ideas you'll just keep on saying "they just haters hating".

All people are capable of change, but going by this forum, it seems a lot of people here believe in the biblical "hardening of the heart". Through education, kindness and exemplary service to our community we can change people. Critically analyze their actions and motives and you'll find there is a reason other than "they just haters"


Worship Hatsune Miku.

[Jason]

Yes there is, here is their plan. Here it comes, you ready?

Step 1. Get rids of Jews some way, send them to the sun or something
Step 2. Force all the races to separate, by sending them to the sun or something.
Step 3. Get rid of "degenerate people", I don't know send them to the sun or something.
Step 4. Magic.


On the real though, their hatred comes from a perceived threat and refusing to understand why and how is a failure on your part, sure it is easy to point as say "they just hate'n" and when more and more people flock to far right ideas you'll just keep on saying "they just haters hating".

All people are capable of change, but going by this forum, it seems a lot of people here believe in the biblical "hardening of the heart". Through education, kindness and exemplary service to our community we can change people. Critically analyze their actions and motives and you'll find there is a reason other than "they just haters"


Worship Hatsune Miku.

A lot of it has to do with upbringing. Your mommy and daddy are rednecks and you follow thier mindview. If you grow up around such indoctrination, then it's tough to think otherwise. I, myself, have a relative like that: he's constantly chatting on and on about this stuff.

For instance, during the 90's he came back from Charlotte NC (and in a scene similar to American History X), he starts some speech at the kitchen table about blacks. He goes on and on about how "If blacks do anything for you, then they believe they're doing you a favor." or how the fast food restaurants in the city were dirty because of no white managers. Of course, the guy is Mexican, and a lot of blacks hate Mexicans, so the hate he experienced might have been real.

But then again I think he is just one of those types that is too sensitive (which might really be the case for a lot of Nazis). They get too angry when racial resentment comes thier way. They think everybody is supposed to like them (or at least ignore them), when they don't. Of course, I admit, Iv'e been places around the world and resentment came my way and I didn't like it. But looking back, I see it as just a fact of life.

[Yazman]

They think everybody is supposed to like them (or at least ignore them), when they don't. Of course, I admit, Iv'e been places around the world and resentment came my way and I didn't like it. But looking back, I see it as just a fact of life.That is an interesting point to make. Perhaps there is something to that. I get the impression a lot of people become racists because of a bad encounter they had and they don't understand the nature of oppression in society.

[Jason]

That is an interesting point to make. Perhaps there is something to that. I get the impression a lot of people become racists because of a bad encounter they had and they don't understand the nature of oppression in society.

They understand the nature of oppression, but they are just being childish.

[Q]

They have a lot less tendency wars?

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

There are lots of folk 'bigger' online (from pornstars to conspiracy nuts and back again). The internet allows anyone to express any opinion on any subject and the uptake in terms of who agrees or how many hits a site gets etc is not really an indication of anything except how often that particular group of people like to log on and type shit.

[Comrade #138672]

They have a lot less tendency wars?As long as you are white and hate non-whites ('traitors' count as non-whites), you are good.

[Thirsty Crow]

Yeah it might all be a coverup and conspiracy for their hate, but they could say that about revleft - that is it a coverup to impliment illuminati dominsation (knowing how paranoid some of them are, they probably would), it would have the same veracity - none.
Whoa what a far fetched analogy.

The word choice is pretty shabby. The ethnic pride thing is no such thing as a conspiracy. A cover up, sure, since it implies, in practice, strongly discriminatory and racist attitudes.

On the other hand, the whole illuminati domination is bogus.


As long as you are white and hate non-whites ('traitors' count as non-whites), you are good.
Yeah, I'd like to see Croat and Serbian fascists peacefully coexisting in their righteous struggle against Jews and whoever else (that was sarcasm in case anyone fail to notice :D)

[blake 3:17]

They have a lot less tendency wars?

Or if they do it's not about some extremely precise sociological characterization, backed up by studies and account for 17 different analyses, of ... Ummm, what was I talking about?

I ended up looking at a couple of racist and mens rights boards recently, and what I noticed was how visceral the discussion was. It was like the Jerry Springer Show -- when I'm on here I am always, "I better check which edition of that Raymond Williams book I was thinking of," or which year did Cardenismo end? Better find two or three sources, make sure it's right.

There's a bunch of BS over the past fifty years of Beyond Left and Right, mostly spouted by kinda leftish people, but I think there are very interesting strands in conservative thought, not of the NeoNazi type, which do resonate with people in ways that the pure pure Left just doesn't.

[Crux]

They have a lot less tendency wars?
Well, in some ways it's a much simpler ideology. But, if the swedish NS movement is representative, they do very much have "tendency" wars, which sometimes end rather violently. There has in fact been several occurences of fash on fash violence in recent years. Some guy tried to jump to some other fash group and, allegedly, take susbscription lists for their paper etc with him, so two guys from his old organization comes to his home beats him up, takes his computers and threaten him and his girlfriend with a gun (or gun-like object since it was never retrived). The two guys did time for that. The most recent would be the internal turmoil in the Nationaldemokrats, or really what seems more and more to be Marc Abrahamsson (the leader of the ND) against everyone else. Threats and assaults all around. I know it's kind of like that on the left in some countries too, but at least here in sweden, regardless of how super-secterian it gets sometimes, we rarely actually beat on each other.

The closest thing I can think of is when the Sendiero Luminoso solidarity org split (because the mothership back in peru had split) and they allegedly had a punch out amongst themselfes on an actual demo. But they are of course completely craycray. And interestingly, mostly not peruvian.

[Jason]

Fascism will eventually lead to fights, because each nationality is for thier own group. For instance, if fascists took power in two nations, then those two nations could fight over territory, and because each group thinks they're more superior. Fascism is definitely a self-destructive philosophy. Actually, the only things that unite fascists are hatred of anti-nationalism and communism.

[Craig_J]

Speaking from a young members perspective I don't post that much on here because usually I'm spending too much time on my exams getting an education.

Whilst a young stormfront member has never heard of an education, hence the reason they joined stormfront.

On a serious note though that is outstanding. I'm very suprised at the difference.

[Crixus]

Because the ruling classes ideology subtly reenforces racism/sexism/homophobia so on a base level most people agree with these in one form or another and, at least in the broader US, white people are the majority. I'm not sure why people in China and India would log on the site on a regular basis. Are these site hits or active membership? Also, both conspiracy theories and fascism (falsely) 'explain' the worlds problems in a simplistic fashion which makes it easier for people to latch onto. It takes a lot of effort to understand Marxism. Not so much with NAZI ideology.

[rylasasin]

because it's easier to be stupid than it is to be smart.

To be a leftist, you have to know at least a little bit about marx, economics, lenin, and politics. Also history, science, etc helps.

To be a nazi, you don't have to know anything. About anything. And it's better (for the nazi cause) if you don't. All you really need to know is "grr me having trouble in life, me look for solution. Me find people say jews/commies/forgeiners/whatever are problem. Me think this makes sense. ME MAD, ME SMAAAAAASH, GRRAWWWL!!"

[Bostana]

Something you should know in life......there are more idiots than people with common sense

[Geiseric]

You're taught by bourgeois culture the main gist of Nazism. Fascism is just ultra capitalism when it goes down to it, once everything is monopolized.

[Deity]

I think an important part of it is that Fascism seems like a more immediate solution to all of their problems. When you can blame somebody for your issues and say all we need to do Is get rid of him and it'll be better, it seems so much easier than it would be to truly analyze it. In almost any situation an average person in our societies would choose a simple solution over an intricate one so long as they believe it will fix their issue.

The idea that we have, with a socialist society, is a very large change. Many people are frightened by a change of this magnitude, and rightfully so. Big changes in any direction can be scary, and many people aren't willing to climb the mountain necessary to motivate themselves to be open to an idea as crazy as ours.

[Nicolas_Cage]

You're taught by bourgeois culture the main gist of Nazism. Fascism is just ultra capitalism when it goes down to it, once everything is monopolized.

Fascist Germany consisted of a mixed economy. It was no more capitalist than present day EU countries.

[Geiseric]

Fascist Germany consisted of a mixed economy. It was no more capitalist than present day EU countries.

It was kenyesianism just like the new deal.

[Comrade Nasser]

Let's put it this way lol

It's easy to be stupid and a nazi, then to be a communist and an intellectual.

[Nicolas_Cage]

Let's put it this way lol

It's easy to be stupid and a nazi, then to be a communist and an intellectual.

What about stupid communists? They exist too.

[Nicolas_Cage]

Keep in mind that a lot of people on Stormfront might not be Nazis and I'd say a LOT of them are trolls/people just looking for a bit of fun. Stormfront also gets some media attention. Revleft is pretty intolerant of non-communists and as such they are commonly banned which gives the website a bad reputation. All of these are reasons why Stormfront is more popular.

-NC

[RadioRaheem84]

Fascist Germany consisted of a mixed economy. It was no more capitalist than present day EU countries.

Which are increasingly privatizing and enforcing austerity. Nazi Germany began with some Keynesian policies to rebuild itself but it was not on a New Deal scale and by the time the War broke out, Nazi Germany was pretty much stripped of any measure of a mixed economy.

[Brutus]

To the OP: because they have minimal presence in real life

[Blake's Baby]

Fascist Germany consisted of a mixed economy. It was no more capitalist than present day EU countries.

All of which capitalist. Are you in the US? If so you might have quite a starnge idea about wht the EU is like (indeed, what 'capitalism' and 'socialism' are).

The 'mixed economy' is a method of running capitalism, it isn't a different system from capitalism.

[John Lennin]

Maybe they're too stupid to remember their passwords so they have to register again and again.
No, seriously, its pretty scary.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Keep in mind that a lot of people on Stormfront might not be Nazis and I'd say a LOT of them are trolls/people just looking for a bit of fun. Stormfront also gets some media attention. Revleft is pretty intolerant of non-communists and as such they are commonly banned which gives the website a bad reputation. All of these are reasons why Stormfront is more popular.

-NC

I wonder if it's possible to ascertain or estimate the proportion of the Stormfront messageboard who are the genuine item vs those who are trolls vs those who've come to engage in a shouting match with fascists. And how much the latter two categories overlap.

Could be revealing, and would certainly be interesting.

[L1NKS]

As for the funding situation, it comes natural. We oppose the ruling economic system. Hence we end up considerably underfunded. What we have is public approval.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

Take pride in the fact that RevLeft hosts significantly more advanced (quality of post content) threads compared to Stormfront.

[Dropdead]

They have nothing to do on the streets so they just go write on their shitty forums about the ZOG.

[Thelonious]

Most of the genuine communists and anarchists that I know in "real" life have never even heard of Revleft. I stumbled across it by accident one day. I don't post on here much because I am too busy with life (children, work, union responsibilities such as organizing, cooking, laundry, attending rallies, etc.)

[Futility Personified]

I'd prefer to think of the idea that fascists are going to be more isolated because although we are technically "extremist", we don't go around shouting racial epithets and generally being dicks, meaning we're forced to live exclusively on the internet. I've only met one leftist irl who'd even heard of this place and he didn't rate it very highly at all.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

Most of the genuine communists and anarchists that I know in "real" life have never even heard of Revleft. I stumbled across it by accident one day. I don't post on here much because I am too busy with life (children, work, union responsibilities such as organizing, cooking, laundry, attending rallies, etc.)

You've got a good point there, the same applies for me. It suggests that the movement is far larger than one could perceive by looking at this forum alone.

[SocialistFreedomFighter]

Lads, shouldn't we do something about these internet Nazi's? We shouldn't underestimate masses, no matter how disjointed and ill organised they are. All it takes is one man with an agenda and a brilliant mind to herald these masses.
Now, I'm not one who thinks it is right to physically remove someone the right of freedom of speech because it doesn't suit my agenda or the norm's. However, if their opinion is morally wrong which could potentially harm others then that's were I step in. That's were we step in. We need to take physical action!

[RedHal]

yes some are probably there to troll or read for entertainment value, just like watching racists buffoons on trash tv talks shows.

But the majority on that site are your typical white right wing GOP/Tory/Tea Party types. I don't think it's stretching it to say that, the majority of them hold racists feelings. The anonymity of the internet allows them to show their true colours.

This also explains why donations for their forum are much higher than revleft, where the majority of members are students.

[Free Communist]

I've seen a hell of a lot of Chinese people post on English far-right forum boards. It seems they view the growing 'muslim' population in China like the Hindu Nationalists do of 'muslims' in India. The white supremacism is a fad too, which is pretty fucking weird considering white has always originally just meant 'western European' really.

Neo-nazis seem to actually like asian people (or 'Mongoloids' as they call them, maybe the word asian just wasn't offencive enough for them?).

[Comrade Nasser]

What about stupid communists? They exist too.

I am one of the stupid ones here as I have no idea about communist/anarchist theory at all, I just hang around here because talking mideast politics and meeting cool people like everyone here is awesome.

Oh also my comment was more directed toward the super smart posters here like Raul Duke, Le socialiste, nicolas cage, odysseus, psycho, etc.

[evermilion]

Oh also my comment was more directed toward the super smart posters here like Raul Duke, Le socialiste, nicolas cage, odysseus, psycho, etc.

I'm surprised to see all those words in the same paragraph.

[Nicolas_Cage]

All of which capitalist. Are you in the US? If so you might have quite a starnge idea about wht the EU is like (indeed, what 'capitalism' and 'socialism' are).

The 'mixed economy' is a method of running capitalism, it isn't a different system from capitalism.

This is fair but the man I was replying to stated that fascism is "ultra capitalism" and I don't agree with this at all. Nazi Germany was no different from present day Ireland, for instance, despite a so called "socialist" party (the Labour Party) being a big influence there.

[Comrade Nasser]

I'm surprised to see all those words in the same paragraph.

I meant the poster here not the actual man lol

[Zealot]

Maybe because no one wants to listen to them in real life

[Craig_J]

Neo-nazis seem to actually like asian people (or 'Mongoloids' as they call them, maybe the word asian just wasn't offencive enough for them?).

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Hitler consider people from the region of India Aryan as they were part of the Indo-Aryan race? Maybe it's just Jewish people, Muslims and black people they've decided they hate?

[Comrade Nasser]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Hitler consider people from the region of India Aryan as they were part of the Indo-Aryan race? Maybe it's just Jewish people, Muslims and black people they've decided they hate?

Exactly. I've heard them say they wouldn't mind living near Asians, Indians, Arab Christians, and Zoroastrian Iranians. But I don't care if they would ever accept me to live near any of these wannabe Aryan fuckers. I will oppose these people till the end of time. I don't know what they have against jews, blacks, and Muslims? Just pure ignorance, honestly.

[liberlict]

Neo-nazis seem to actually like asian people (or 'Mongoloids' as they call them, maybe the word asian just wasn't offencive enough for them?).

Yeah they like Asians because they view Asians as racially conscious and unified (which they are, it can't be denied). The Nazis want to copy Asian racism for Europeans.

[liberlict]

Let's put it this way lol

It's easy to be stupid and a nazi, then to be a communist and an intellectual.

*than

[Wings Of Redemption]

This is fair but the man I was replying to stated that fascism is "ultra capitalism" and I don't agree with this at all. Nazi Germany was no different from present day Ireland, for instance, despite a so called "socialist" party (the Labour Party) being a big influence there.

The Labour Party doesn't really have a significant influence in Ireland, not where I live anyway, maybe there's a larger following in places like Dublin and Cork. I don't think I've ever met anyone that takes them seriously.

[Wings Of Redemption]

Maybe because no one wants to listen to them in real life

As funny as that is, unfortunately Fascists will always have a new set of ears to force their twisted views upon.

[Ironfront]

"he ongoing vote count at the time this article was written has Kshama Sawant winning over 29%, pointing toward a final number of over 20,000 votes."

source: socialist alternative website.

That is what counts: REAL LIFE, not some loser in his mom's basement pounding on his keyboard about how he hates "knee-grows".

There are more socialists, social-democrats and Marxists in Seattle alone then there are nazis in the whole west coast.

[Occi]

This is pretty easy to explain:

Nazism is viewed as an enticing forbidden fruit. Evil, but so powerful that the world had to unite to stop them.

Communism is seen as a weak, failed ideology, measured by history and found wanting.

So, imagine you're seeking a fringe ideology to identify with. Which is more enticing?

[Relick]

I see it this way:

Many Nazis consider what they do a scientific cause - fighting for the preservation of their race. However as we saw with Hitler's Nazis there is a large overlap between white nationalism and white supremacism - the latter is way more 'evil' in society than the former.

Communism on the other hand is considered a social cause - fighting for the equal rights and privileges in exchange for everyone doing their bit (at least the basic idea, different ideologies go deeper than this). Because of the information era we live in, it only makes sense that scientific movements are favoured over social movements.

Also (as already said in the topic) Stormfront was THE first white nationalist/supremacist forum and was set up in the 90s. It wasn't an overnight success. On the other hand RevLeft is fairly new, isn't the only communist site and revolutionaries are much preferred (as opposed to any form of white pride regardless of extreme on Stormfront).

[Revenant]

Just wondering since, let me give an example. Stormfront dot org, which is like the white nationalist/nazi equivalent of Revleft for those who don't know, is MASSIVE compared to Revleft.

For example, at any given time on Stormfront there's usually ~1000 or so people online, posting & browsing.


Many of that 1000 will be trolls ;)
I always thought with SF and the posters i've encountered from there they are pretty much confined to the internet to do their business, whereas we're really popular in the real world ;)

The internet is the only place you can really deny the holocaust and not get into trouble.
Stormfront 2.0 is called davidicke-com:laugh: SF get a lot of new recruits by saturating the conspiracy theory forums with anti-jewish conspiracies and working their way to positions of influence within those communities etc.

[Tautininkas]

Because more and more people are realising that the ''cultural enrichment'' experiment being carried out in Europe is a disaster waiting to happen.

[Pelarys]

Because more and more people are realising that the ''cultural enrichment'' experiment being carried out in Europe is a disaster waiting to happen.

Haha, goodbye.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Many of that 1000 will be trolls ;)

I keep seeing this being repeated, but without hard figures such statements do not go beyond conjecture and are thus pointless masturbation.


Because more and more people are realising that the ''cultural enrichment'' experiment being carried out in Europe is a disaster waiting to happen.

What a load of reactionary nativist bullshit! Non-Europeans have been settling into Europe ever since humans got the idea to leave the African homelands.

Also, alloys are stronger than base metals, mutts are healthier than inbred pedigrees, and diverse societies are less dysfunctional because they have to be able to get along with differences in order to survive. The idea that purity is somehow better or stronger than a mix is a complete falsehood.

[Ele'ill]

if it helps the math at all at least 1,000 of their users are my sockpuppets

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Yeah they like Asians because they view Asians as racially conscious and unified (which they are, it can't be denied). The Nazis want to copy Asian racism for Europeans.

Except that Asians are far from "racially unified", since there is plenty of ethnic hate going on between the Japanese and the Chinese, or the Japanese and the Koreans, or...

Also, does the definition of "Asian" as an ethnicity in this instance include people from countries like India, Pakistan and Bangladesh? Because those places are just as "Asian" as China, Korea, and Japan.

Although if there was some kind of ideological or political current which espoused a truly pan-Asian unity, such a movement would have a potentially enormous wellspring of political capital, encompassing as it would over two billion people covering a significant area of the world's largest continent. Such a geopolitical titan would bestride the world like a colossus, and in its apotheosis would gather a significant fraction of the world's population under one flag. Fortunately or unfortunately, this doesn't look like it could be happening any time soon. Although I would not be surprised if China decided to start moving in that direction as the 21st century wears on, and if US dominance becomes increasingly less so.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

LOL 'ASIANS UNIFIED' maybe in the eyes of some eurocentric fleabag.

'Asian' isn't an ethnic group. 'Asians' consist of thousands upon thousands of diverse ethnicities and cultures, comprising of around half the world's population.
'Asian' is a shitty roman-origin term to describe anything to the east of Europe. There is no 'racially unified asian' - how fucking moronic!

Let's look at these 'unified asian nations', shall we?

Well, if I recall correctly, the Deathcult empire of Japan practically recolonialised all of coastal China and the pacific, and it's modern descendant - along with it's Korean neighbour - is an ethnically homogenous racist and right-wing hellhole, where people dress up as afro-americans with facepaint and act out stereotypes on television, where confucian ideals are perverted to their most repulsive extremes, where non-Japanese (especially non-whites) are socially attacked by racists and struggle to find a job simply because bosses can refuse them based on appearance, where families of loved ones who commit suicide-by-train must pay the train companies for repair damages.

A place where interracial relationships or marriage is sinful, and where ethnic Koreans who have had ancestors living in the country for hundreds of years do not have citizenship because the 'government does not recognise their ethnicity as being Japanese'.

All this in a country where women have the lowest gender-based wage gap of all the developed nations.

They're so racially unified, what with banning Pacific islanders from stores and depicting black migrant workers as apes.


How about Malaysia? They've got a separate fucking education system for Chinese people! Malays are automatically allowed into universities there, while Chinese aren't even able to apply for some! The (malay dominated) government responds any form of anti-racism effort with threats of mass deportation! Chinese suffer the roughly same form of persecution in Malaysia as Afro-Americans do in the US! So racially unifying - that is, if by racially unifying you mean Jim Crow laws.


But lets' not even finish there! What about the insane level of regional-supremacy clashes between the nations between India and China? Rohingya and Rakhine are so racially unified, despite - you know - the propaganda fuelled racial hostilities.

'Asians' are not 'racially unified', nor are they a single ethnic group. This kind of shit is just the usual bile that comes from your average economically oblivious race-cult nationalist who wants to put terror in the hearts of a few gullible white people about the dangers of a coming 'asian invasion' or some other nonsense.

[CognitiveDissident]

Ironically, to the extent that Asians are "unified" in the USA, it is as a result of late 1960s Maoist ethnic nationalists. Ah, irony.

[liberlict]

Except that Asians are far from "racially unified", since there is plenty of ethnic hate going on between the Japanese and the Chinese, or the Japanese and the Koreans, or...

Also, does the definition of "Asian" as an ethnicity in this instance include people from countries like India, Pakistan and Bangladesh? Because those places are just as "Asian" as China, Korea, and Japan.

Although if there was some kind of ideological or political current which espoused a truly pan-Asian unity, such a movement would have a potentially enormous wellspring of political capital, encompassing as it would over two billion people covering a significant area of the world's largest continent. Such a geopolitical titan would bestride the world like a colossus, and in its apotheosis would gather a significant fraction of the world's population under one flag. Fortunately or unfortunately, this doesn't look like it could be happening any time soon. Although I would not be surprised if China decided to start moving in that direction as the 21st century wears on, and if US dominance becomes increasingly less so.

Yeah "Asia" is extremely diverse ... sorry if I implied otherwise. I was just speaking from my own experiences in Korea and Japan---where basically racism was the way. I think that's the sort of racism that white nationalists want to import to Europe or whatever; at least that' my impression. I read that in Anders Behring manifesto too heh.