Muslims: The New Jews in Europe?

[Comrade #138672]

Could it be said that the Muslims in Europe are treated similar to how the Jews were treated prior to World War II? Because they're being oppressed here more and more, they seem to have the same social position as Jews had before World War II. Does this imply that they have the same potential - as Jews had - to be Socialists? If so, then shouldn't we do as much as we can to protect them from Racism, and convince them to join our cause?

[The Jay]

They do not have the same positions as the jews did. The jews did have a strong presence in the banking industry due to historical circumstances which led to them being an easy scapegoat. There was also less contention on immigration since the jews were established in Europe for a long time.

Even to be a jew does not require being of the jewish faith per se. There are and were many atheistic jews, but there aren't and can never be an atheistic muslim. That doesn't mean that muslims cannot be socialists since that is obviously not the case, but I think that it does make them less likely to be marxists or even plain materialists. I think that is a limitation but not an insurmountable one.

About racism, being arabic and being muslim are not the same thing as you seem to be implying. Most of the muslims that are entering Europe happen to be arabs in my understanding but confusing the two doesn't help anyone.

I do not think that we could reach many of the devout muslims in regards to Socialism but certainly we could convince some of the secular ones. It is much the same as when talking about christians: no real chance when talking to a fundamentalist but some chance when talking to one that believes in secular government.

Bottom line: we should have a dialogue with everyone while holding realistic expectations.

[Comrade #138672]

They do not have the same positions as the jews did. The jews did have a strong presence in the banking industry due to historical circumstances which led to them being an easy scapegoat.But Muslims seem to have a strong presence in society as well. The Racists usually criticize them for their presence in the legal system (as lawyers, judges, etc) and similar important parts of society.


There was also less contention on immigration since the jews were established in Europe for a long time.So does this mean that Muslims are even more oppressed?


Even to be a jew does not require being of the jewish faith per se. There are and were many atheistic jews, but there aren't and can never be an atheistic muslim. That doesn't mean that muslims cannot be socialists since that is obviously not the case, but I think that it does make them less likely to be marxists or even plain materialists. I think that is a limitation but not an insurmountable one.What about atheist Arabs?


About racism, being arabic and being muslim are not the same thing as you seem to be implying. Most of the muslims that are entering Europe happen to be arabs in my understanding but confusing the two doesn't help anyone.I know, but most of them are Arabs. Islamophobes occasionally give their Racism away by confusing Muslims with Arabs, making Racist statements about Arabs instead of Muslims. To them there doesn't seem to be a real difference and to me this is very important.


I do not think that we could reach many of the devout muslims in regards to Socialism but certainly we could convince some of the secular ones. It is much the same as when talking about christians: no real chance when talking to a fundamentalist but some chance when talking to one that believes in secular government.

Bottom line: we should have a dialogue with everyone while holding realistic expectations.I agree.

[Permanent Revolutionary]

Well, there don't seem to be any Rothschild-world-domination conspiracy theories about Arabs, but the general hatred and xenophobia is definitely there.

[GoddessCleoLover]

European leftists might find potential recruits among Europe's Muslim population but that population seems to be largely rather devoutly Muslim and orthodox religious beliefs are a difficult barrier to socialist consciousness.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

No. Although marginalized, Muslims still have the benefits of high population growth and being the major source for most European immigration. It would be better if they were compared to latinos immigrating to the US if native Mesoamerican influences were somewhat stronger (ex: if many used a uniform language other than spanish). The Jews pre WW2 were a great diaspora that could never realistically become the dominate demographic in Europe (ignore insane evil Jewish Banker conspiracists). Jews in those times were essentially urban antiGypsies.

[Pelarys]

It's the usual xenophobia in time of unemployment, here in France Arab Maghrebi were brought en masse when we needed them for cheap labor, but now that people must compete to get a job it's to be expected that they turn to racism against people of immigrant origin since now that they are in a situation of "competition" to get jobs and feels that they, as proper European, deserve a job better than a "filthy immigrant". It happens all the time in economic crisis and is pretty inherent to a capitalist society. It is even more of a shame, since for me lack of integration (read: Rejections by the locals) is the main reason some young Muslim are turning into religious fundamentalism.

[cynicles]

Only in so far as they serve as a major punching bag of this generation but there are some similar images of muslims/arabs/southasians that we're projected on jews before. But you're never going to get a consistent stereotype. I also don't necessarily by into the whole muslims in europe being mostly devout, they've flipped and flopped politically on that issue as much as europe has politically.

[Ocean Seal]

Well, there don't seem to be any Rothschild-world-domination conspiracy theories about Arabs, but the general hatred and xenophobia is definitely there.

Have you never heard of Glenn Beck and Caliphate Communism?

[hetz]

Most Muslims in Western Europe are 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants.
Jews on the other hand have been present in Western and Central Europe for many centuries.

[Comrade #138672]

Well, there don't seem to be any Rothschild-world-domination conspiracy theories about Arabs, but the general hatred and xenophobia is definitely there.Well, about the world domination part, it's definitely there. Islamophobics claim that the Qu'ran tells Muslims to take over the world and destroy everyone who is not a Muslim. They spread fear about Muslims, telling people that they want to take over the country and implement Sharia laws. They literally say that Muslims conspire together against non-Muslims.

True, the Muslims don't have the same reputation in the banking system as the Jews did, but that doesn't matter. According to Islamophobics, the Muslims are working hard to infiltrate the system, by becoming lawyers, judges, academics, etc. to accumulate enough power, so that they will be able to take over the system.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Could it be said that the Muslims in Europe are treated similar to how the Jews were treated prior to World War II? Because they're being oppressed here more and more, they seem to have the same social position as Jews had before World War II. Does this imply that they have the same potential - as Jews had - to be Socialists? If so, then shouldn't we do as much as we can to protect them from Racism, and convince them to join our cause?

Racial nationalism must be a northern european thing.

I have noticed no discrimination against muslims, nor against any other religion. The crisis has actualy brought people together. There is now something that unites all of the people, the desire to end misery.
The fascist movement, as far as I know, is staying extremely small and powerless. The left is growing a lot here, most people I know are left-leaning.

I wonder why people in northern europe are more susceptible to nazism.

[Radical Dandy]

Muslims are targets of xenophobic attacks and immigrants in general are always used as scapegoats by the ruling class, there's nothing new or extraordinary in that. That's not even remotely comparable to the historically unique and unprecedented persecution of Jews, which culminated in the Holocaust, and genocidal antisemitism of the Nazis.

[Nakidana]

It is even more of a shame, since for me lack of integration is the main reason many young Muslim are turning into religious fundamentalism.

You know I really hate this word or concept of "integration". The reason is that I've come to realize that what people mean when they say integration is that they want to force immigrants to change x, y and z about their behavior in order to better "fit in" with society. Wear some "proper" western clothes, learn the language, attend western cultural events, move into areas with white people etc.

Fuck that. Let people do whatever the hell they want as long as they work and pay taxes. I mean sure, new people in the country should definitely be greeted by an adviser who can offer language classes, guidance about the different institutions in the country etc etc, but it shouldn't be forced upon them. An offer is all it should be. If some immigrant is doing a job where communicating in the national language is not a requirement and he's perfectly happy speaking his own language all day, then leave him the hell alone. :glare:

I mean it doesn't harm anybody, why can't people just accept that other people might want to live in a different way?

Now maybe I've got this integration thing the wrong way around, but to me it doesn't seem much different to assimilation. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

[hetz]

Wear some "proper" western clothes, learn the language, attend western cultural events, move into areas with white people etc.
Yeah, immigrants totally don't need to learn the language, fuck that, fuck talking to non-immigrants or applying for a job.:rolleyes:
Are you even serious? Knowing the language is a basic prerequisite for anything, without that you can only have ghettoization.

[Comrade #138672]

Yeah, immigrants totally don't need to learn the language, fuck that, fuck talking to non-immigrants or applying for a job.:rolleyes:
Are you even serious? Knowing the language is a basic prerequisite for anything, without that you can only have ghettoization.When xenophobics tell immigrants to learn their language, they usually try to force this upon them and punish them for not meeting up to their unreasonable 'high' standard.

[hetz]

Learning the language of a country you've emigrated to is a basic thing.
Nothing "unreasonable" about that.

[Comrade #138672]

Learning the language of a country you've emigrated to is a basic thing.
Nothing "unreasonable" about that.I'm talking about expecting an immigrant to learn a secondary language perfectly within a few months or so. When they fail, which they inevitably will, you can punish them for it.

[Avanti]

Well, there don't seem to be any Rothschild-world-domination conspiracy theories about Arabs, but the general hatred and xenophobia is definitely there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurabia

i recently pretended

to be an islamist

at a bus

when i argued

with an angry drunk

[Nakidana]

Yeah, immigrants totally don't need to learn the language, fuck that, fuck talking to non-immigrants or applying for a job.:rolleyes:

There are many manual jobs which have no local language requirement. In fact I know many immigrants who work in this country and can hardly speak a word of the local language. When they get home they just chill with their friends and speak their native language. Why do you need to force them to learn your language? What is it exactly about them not speaking your language that offends you so much? They go to work, they pay taxes, what the hell do you care what they do or how they socialize in their spare time?

You see this is the kind of racism I'm talking about. "They need to talk to non-immigrants", yeah why is that? Regardless of them not knowing the language they still survive somehow. They go to the shops, both local and foreign, and they buy goods and they come back. It's not like they starve or can't get around because of lack of a language.

Now don't get me wrong, I would definitely recommend everyone to learn the local language because it opens up for all the higher paying jobs and of course you can get around easier if you know it. But if they don't want to learn it, and are satisfied working the job they have then...who cares?


Are you even serious? Knowing the language is a basic prerequisite for anything, without that you can only have ghettoization.

It's not really a basic prerequisite for "anything", I know immigrants who have been in this country for decades, hardly speak the language, yet still get by.

By ghettoization I assume you mean people who're originally from the same place and speak the same language living together. What's wrong with that? Is it not natural that people with the same interests and background live together? Why is it that you want to force them to move away from each other? Maybe you should start by asking the rich white bastards to move out of their little ghettos and mingle with the immigrants first.

[hetz]

Here we have a curious example, someone actually advocating ghettoization, immigrants sticking to manual jobs and staying away from people who don't speak their language.

Without speaking the language you cannot really participate in a society fully. You cannot read the newspapers, you cannot go to schools, you cannot call a plumber...


You see this is the kind of racism I'm talking about.What does that have to do with racism?

[Nakidana]

Here we have a curious example, someone actually advocating ghettoization, immigrants sticking to manual jobs and staying away from people who don't speak their language.

I never advocated any of those things. I said if immigrants enjoy living with people they know, working a manual job and are not particularly interested in forcing themselves on non-immigrants (many of whom will never accept them as equals) in a desperate attempt to fit in, then they should be allowed to do that.


Without speaking the language you cannot really participate in a society fully. You cannot read the newspapers, you cannot go to schools, you cannot call a plumber...

Sure you cannot participate in society fully, but do you want to force them to? What about all the non-immigrants who do know the language but never read the newspaper or participate in society in any way at all. Why don't you complain about them? Maybe people should be free to do whatever they want with their spare time, wherever they're from. If they want to read newspapers, let them read newspapers, if they want to chill with their friends and listen to music etc in their own language then why is that a problem?


What does that have to do with racism?

You want to force adult immigrants to attend classes and mingle with non-immigrants, but when it comes to non-immigrants they can do whatever the fuck they want.

[hetz]

I never advocated any of those things.
Sure seemed so to me. Sorry if I was wrong.


Sure you cannot participate in society fully, but do you want to force them to?
It's about incentive, if you don't take steps towards integration you will have ghettoization.


What about all the people who do
know the language but never read the newspaper or participate in society in any way at all. Why don't you complain about them?
What about those who never leave their basement?
It's about making people be able to integrate.

[Nakidana]

Sure seemed so to me. Sorry if I was wrong.

That's okay, but I just reread my former post and I actually specifically pointed out how "I would definitely recommend everyone to learn the local language because it opens up for all the higher paying jobs and of course you can get around easier if you know it."

You should really read posts more carefully dude.


It's about incentive, if you don't take steps towards integration you will have ghettoization.

Well the thing is, what exactly do you mean when you say integration? Whenever I read bourgeois newspapers about integration it always comes down to forcing immigrants to do x, y and z in order to better "fit in" with the non-immigrants. Of course non-immigrants don't have to do shit, it's all about how immigrants won't mingle etc etc.

I feel differently. Have you ever been new to a place, say if you were starting a new activity, a sport or job or whatever. Usually there will be a group of people there who already know each other and hang out. Now tell me this, who has the responsibility in this case? Is it the new guy, who doesn't know anyone or how anything works, who should walk up to the group, barge in and desperately try to befriend them? Or is it the responsibility of the group to open up, make the guy feel welcome and offer to teach him the ropes?

I'm not saying you have these viewpoints, I'm just saying that's what a lot of people mean when they talk about integration. They want the new guy to jump through all kinds of hoops in order to gain acceptance by the group, hoops that they themselves were never required to jump, or at least were allowed not to jump if they didn't want to.


What about those who never leave their basement?
It's about making people be able to integrate.

What, are you talking about those non-immigrants who play WoW in their basement all day? Or are those guys okay?

EDIT: Oh and btw it is possible to get hold of a plumber without knowing the local language. That's one of the great things about living together with people you know (I figure it's called a "ghetto" in your language), they have contacts and can help you get hold of a plumber if you need one.

[Comrade #138672]

Here we have a curious example, someone actually advocating ghettoization, immigrants sticking to manual jobs and staying away from people who don't speak their language.

Without speaking the language you cannot really participate in a society fully. You cannot read the newspapers, you cannot go to schools, you cannot call a plumber...

What does that have to do with racism?Let me ask you this. Is it their own fault that they fail to fully adjust to society?

[Pelarys]

Guys when that's not what I meant at all when I said integration.
I was giving my thoughts on why there is this recrudescence of xenophobia (and islamophobia) and then saying that, in consequence of this xenophobia, the youth war more likely to hear the religious leader that speaks to his heart than the locals that are saying "you're a parasite draining the blood out of MY country", which may explain the perceived rise in religiousness.
The term "many" was inappropriate here since I do not think they are so many truly fundamentalist Muslims as people pretend/think/fear there are.
In no way I meant to criticize the immigrants, in the contrary, I was just trying to give my perception of the current islamophobia, which might very well be false, and to address the concern many people seems obsessed with in France, which is the rise of fundamentalism.

Basically when I said "lack of integration" I meant "rejections by the locals". I am really sorry for my poor wording, as you may tell English is not my first language, and I express my ideas rather clumsily. Oh well, I came here to learn, hope I have not crossed anyone.

[Devrim]

EDIT: Oh and btw it is possible to get hold of a plumber without knowing the local language. That's one of the great things about living together with people you know (I figure it's called a "ghetto" in your language), they have contacts and can help you get hold of a plumber if you need one.

I remember last year when there was a friend of ours who was a political refuge who got his water cut off. He couldn't speak any Turkish (If he had been able to read the letters from the water board, and wouldn't have been cut off in the first place), so I had to go with him to deal with it. I took the day off work to help him. I was doing casual work at the time, so I lost money, but the guy didn't have any water, so I had to do something. We spent most of the day sorting out having him reconnected.

Result, the two of us wasted a day at the water company. I lost a day's pay when I couldn't really afford to, and he had no water for a few days.

Obviously forcing people onto courses and to achieve certain test results in a language is wrong, but so is this romanticism that seem to be being created on this thread about 'not intergrating'. I know many older Turkish people in London who hardly speak a word of English. I am sure the people who are happiest about this are the bosses of the Turkish owned textile factories where they work, who pay them terrible wages knowing they can't get anything else.

Devrim

[Devrim]

I know, but most of them are Arabs. Islamophobes occasionally give their Racism away by confusing Muslims with Arabs, making Racist statements about Arabs instead of Muslims.

Just on a point of information I don't think this is true. The EU has approximately 16 million Muslim, of whom approximately 9 million are Turks.

Devrim

[Nakidana]

I remember last year when there was a friend of ours who was a political refuge who got his water cut off. He couldn't speak any Turkish (If he had been able to read the letters from the water board, and wouldn't have been cut off in the first place), so I had to go with him to deal with it. I took the day off work to help him. I was doing casual work at the time, so I lost money, but the guy didn't have any water, so I had to do something. We spent most of the day sorting out having him reconnected.

Result, the two of us wasted a day at the water company. I lost a day's pay when I couldn't really afford to, and he had no water for a few days.

But my point is that he got it done. Why? Because he had you as a friend. If he hadn't had you he would've been fucked, and that support network is IMO exactly one of the reasons why immigrants from the same area live next to each other. Would it have been easier if he had known the language? Sure, but again it wasn't a requirement for him to make a living in Turkey.


Obviously forcing people onto courses and to achieve certain test results in a language is wrong, but so is this romanticism that seem to be being created on this thread about 'not intergrating'.

Okay, if by integration you mean learning the local language, I'm not romanticizing anything. I've mentioned twice, and this is the third time, that by knowing the local language you can get better jobs and get around easier. No doubt about it, and immigrants do know this. They all know they need to take language courses to reach less physical higher paying jobs (this is all anecdotal evidence of course, but I know and have talked to many immigrants over the years and they all agree with this. Some of them do take the courses and advance, others never get around to it and just make a living with whatever stable job they find)

What I'm against is very simply forcing immigrants onto language courses and other "hoops".


I know many older Turkish people in London who hardly speak a word of English. I am sure the people who are happiest about this are the bosses of the Turkish owned textile factories where they work, who pay them terrible wages knowing they can't get anything else.

Of course, a lot of these jobs take a high toll on the body and the pay is shit. That's why I said an "adviser" should offer newly arrived immigrants language courses, guides to the local area, institutions and activities and a place to contact if they ever need help. To give them all the help they might need.

My point is that you do have immigrants who work these tough jobs for decades and make a decent living doing so (in this country you can make a decent living anyway. Pay and work hours is probably worse in the UK. I remember being told that UK has the longest workweek and worst pay in all of EU). They come home from work and enjoy life with their family and friends who, yes, might all be from the same place originally. But the fact that these people socialize with fellow immigrants most of the time is not a problem to me. Obviously it's a great problem to some people because when I open the newspaper and read another story about immigrants it's all about parallel societies, failed integration and how we should stop immigrants from dressing in weird ways so they can "fit in with society", i.e. integrate.

These are the same kind of people who complain about the local cashier having a lip piercing and dying his/her hair black.

[Nakidana]

Basically when I said "lack of integration" I meant "rejections by the locals". I am really sorry for my poor wording, as you may tell English is not my first language, and I express my ideas rather clumsily. Oh well, I came here to learn, hope I have not crossed anyone.

lol, don't worry mate, no need to apologize. See that's the thing about integration, I think it's a buzz word more than anything else. There is no real definition. What's the problem? Oh the bloody immigrants won't integrate. For God's sake if only they integrated more then we might not have all of these demonstrations/financial problems/language problems/education problems/health problems/crime problems/xmas problems (yep, national scandal in this here country. Xmas was ruined by a bunch of, you guessed it, Muslims) etc.

You have to skip the word and then look at what measures people are actually advocating. And I promise you it will involve immigrants having to jump through yet another hoop.

[Beeth]

I am inclined to agree with malangyar, especially this bit:
I feel differently. Have you ever been new to a place, say if you were starting a new activity, a sport or job or whatever. Usually there will be a group of people there who already know each other and hang out. Now tell me this, who has the responsibility in this case? Is it the new guy, who doesn't know anyone or how anything works, who should walk up to the group, barge in and desperately try to befriend them? Or is it the responsibility of the group to open up, make the guy feel welcome and offer to teach him the ropes?

What malangyar is saying is that while integration (learning languages etc.) is good from the immigrant's point of view, they become a burden when imposed from the outside, especially since people who are already familiar with the place and language don't know the anxiety and frustration that immigrants go through. When such people say learn our language, they are not saying it because they have the welfare of immigrants at heart. it is more like an accusation than a solid piece of advice. But of course, this is revleft - nobody will bother to understand this.

[Minty Fresh]

Could it be said that the Muslims in Europe are treated similar to how the Jews were treated prior to World War II? Because they're being oppressed here more and more, they seem to have the same social position as Jews had before World War II. Does this imply that they have the same potential - as Jews had - to be Socialists? If so, then shouldn't we do as much as we can to protect them from Racism, and convince them to join our cause?

Well, yeah we should definitely be protecting them from racism because, you know... fuck that shit.

I think there are certainly some similar themes; religious minorities in largely Christian countries, scapegoated for contemporary societal problems during poor economic times, vandalism of homes, businesses, places of worship, etc. Here in America, Donald Trump even said something about making them where badges or something like that. I mean hell, half the fucks at those "STAHP IMIGRASHUN NAO!!!" rallies are wearing fucking swastika shirts.

[Luís Henrique]

Have you never heard of Glenn Beck and Caliphate Communism?

There certainly are some nuts who try to conflate Islam and the left.

But there is a difference, I think, between this and the traditional Bolshevik-banker Jewish conspiracy. To those antisemites, the Jews controlled both the left and the financial system, which was connected to a producerist ideology (Jews are evil because they own non-productive capital, the left is evil because it politically opposes productive capital). To modern islamophobes, either the left tries and uses Muslims to leftist ends, or capitulates to political Islam out of political correctness, but political correctness is not a Muslim thing; there is no real unifying principle between the left and Islam, so at most we have an opportunist collusion between two different social actors, in which either one dupes the other, but not an overarching conspiracy against traditional European society (besides, while anti-semitism was a weapon of traditionalism against the dissolution of tradition by capital, modern islamophobia has no actual problem with capital that I can see; their brand of far-right is rather globalist than nativist).

Where I see a more productive attempt to use islamophobia as a tool of the "politics of ambiguity" that characterises third-positionism, is in their attempts to play feminism against anti-racism, by white-knighting European women against rape by untermenschen. At this they may very well succeed, because social, religious, cultural, and racial tensions in Europe are in a steep rise.


Well, about the world domination part, it's definitely there. Islamophobics claim that the Qu'ran tells Muslims to take over the world and destroy everyone who is not a Muslim. They spread fear about Muslims, telling people that they want to take over the country and implement Sharia laws.

Conspiratory antisemitism, however, does not contend that Jews want to dominate the world, but that they already dominate it through the financial system. This is not something that can be argued about Muslims.

Luís Henrique