zionism and nazism

[Intifada]

here (http://www.iap.org/jewspal.htm)

[Monty Cantsin]

ones against Jews and ones Jew lashing out. thats about all.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Nazi's wanted a nation for aryans, Zionists want a nation for jews.

[Pete]

Zionism is, in a way, an extreme branch of Judaism. One central part of Judaism is the covenant, and keeping the covenant. Supposively the covenant gave the Jews all of David's kingdom as their own, and they want it back citing that they must keep the covenant. Of course that is a generalization. I just read an article in the Toronto Star written by two elders of the Presbertyrian Church of Canada that said antiZionism is antiSemitism. I can see the connection, but in the same sense is anti'put christian/muslim sect here' anti-christian or anti-Muslim?

-Pete

edit: this is after reading the post after mine, just didn't feel like making a new post: I disagree that being against a theocracy is being against that religion, and quite frankly I think religion should go out the door in to the pile of bad ideas. -Pete

[BOZG]

Typical of the reactionary bullshit to be found here. While I oppose Zionism because I believe it does contain many racist elements due to the claims of all of Palestinian for a Jewish only state and the treatment of non-Jews, it is extremely uncorrect to claim that Zionism is Nazism. Some of the major elements of Nazism, is to implement the complete rolling back of civil rights and liberties, the smashing of the communists/socialists/anarchists and the destruction of the progressive workers movement. By progressive workers movement, I mean that it is the goal of Nazis to prevent the workers movement and trade unions from having a say in society and their working conditions by consolidating the unions completely into the state, much like the formation of the National Labour Front (I think that was the name, please correct if I'm wrong) in Nazi Germany, a state Nazi controlled trade union.
Zionism does not incorporate these measures as part of its policies. Zionism was established as a movement to create a homeland for the Jewish people, as Pete said. There are some moderate elements of Zionism such as the right for a homeland for the Jewish people, which only real anti-semites would disagree with, but it's the extremist and racist elements of Zionism, the creation of a Jewish ONLY state, at the expense of the Palestinian peoples, which has become the more mainstream version of Zionism. Zionism as a whole may be, a racist and extremist ideology but it is NOT fascist.

In reply to what Pete said about the claims of anti-Zionism being anti-Semitism, I think this is a ridiculous argument. Of course there are some people who disguise anti-semitism under the anti-Zionist argument but the majority of anti-Zionists are not anti-Semitic but are merely standing up for the rights of the Palestinian people to also have a homeland and not be to treated as 3rd class citizens and as I previously said, they respect the right of the Jewish people to have a homeland but on the basis that this homeland is not racist towards other religions and other nationalities. Needless to say, I also call for it to be a socialist Israel :)

*I say 3rd class citizens because there are huge divisions amongst the Jewish people in Israel with Asian Jews being treated as second class citizens to European Jews in many cases.

[cubist]

see bloody religion ruins everything

[el_profe]

BS, how can you compare 11 million deaths in 6 years(what the nazi did in the camps and their killings) to what the zionist have done.
By the way i dont see ihatebush(and many of youon this board) bithcing about islamic nations?

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 11:38 PM
By the way i dont see ihatebush(and many of youon this board) bithcing about islamic nations?
Why would we be doing that? Which islamic nations are persecuting people?

[Loknar]

How about Sudan?

[Pete]

What about Sudan? I don't really know whats going on there, but Islamic nations have a history of being more tolerant to religious minorities aslong as they are 'people of the book' (ie christians or jews). I think that is what was being refered to.

Could you provide a brief outline and a link about the Sudan situation?

-Pete

[synthesis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 11:38 PM
BS, how can you compare 11 million deaths in 6 years(what the nazi did in the camps and their killings) to what the zionist have done.
Israel encompasses a much smaller territory than Germany did. Were the territories in question actually similar in size, the number of deaths in Israel would have increased proportionately.

Nazi Germany encompassed a total of 357,021 square kilometers and killed 11,000,000 civilians. Israel encompasses 20,770 square kilometers and has killed 100,000 civilians.

If Israel's size increased by a factor of about 17, the number of deaths would be at approximately 1,700,000 civilians.

They may not still seem very comparable in terms of the scale of the atrocities, but there are a couple more things to consider with regards to the deaths. First off, Nazi Germany was highly industrialized, and therefore had an incredible growth of population due to the concentration in urban areas. Palestine, however, is mostly rural, and therefore has much less population per capita.

Secondly, Nazi Germany defied international law in almost every action it took. Israel has to be a little more careful in terms of public relations because its entire existence is sustained from external sources. If Israel acted with the same abandon as Germany did, I do not think it unreasonable to assume that the numbers would be similar.


Typical of the reactionary bullshit to be found here.

Yeah, anti-nationalism is quite reactionary :rolleyes:

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Misodoctakleidist+Dec 28 2003, 11:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Misodoctakleidist @ Dec 28 2003, 11:52 PM)
[email protected] 28 2003, 11:38 PM
By the way i dont see ihatebush(and many of youon this board) bithcing about islamic nations?
Why would we be doing that? Which islamic nations are persecuting people? [/b]
In this topic somone compare nazi to zionism because they want to establish jewish nation. My answer to that was, what about islamic nations that already have a muslim country why dont you compare them to hitler, as to them persecuting people they have in the past and they persecute anyone that is not muslim in those countries. Havent you seen the wars in africa where they persecute christians.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by DyerMaker+Dec 29 2003, 12:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DyerMaker @ Dec 29 2003, 12:33 AM)
[email protected] 28 2003, 11:38 PM
BS, how can you compare 11 million deaths in 6 years(what the nazi did in the camps and their killings) to what the zionist have done.
Israel encompasses a much smaller territory than Germany did. Were the territories in question actually similar in size, the number of deaths in Israel would have increased proportionately.

Nazi Germany encompassed a total of 357,021 square kilometers and killed 11,000,000 civilians. Israel encompasses 20,770 square kilometers and has killed 100,000 civilians.

If Israel&#39;s size increased by a factor of about 17, the number of deaths would be at approximately 1,700,000 civilians.

They may not still seem very comparable in terms of the scale of the atrocities, but there are a couple more things to consider with regards to the deaths. First off, Nazi Germany was highly industrialized, and therefore had an incredible growth of population due to the concentration in urban areas. Palestine, however, is mostly rural, and therefore has much less population per capita.

Secondly, Nazi Germany defied international law in almost every action it took. Israel has to be a little more careful in terms of public relations because its entire existence is sustained from external sources. If Israel acted with the same abandon as Germany did, I do not think it unreasonable to assume that the numbers would be similar.

[/b]
?, what i was also saying was the nazi&#39;s did this in a 6 years span, what you claim Israel has done has been done in much longer period. besides the terrorist they killed are somehow considered civilians, Israel is in a war against terrorist and youre always going to get civilian casualties.

How many have the palestinian terrorist killed, palestinian terrorist mainly go after civilians because they are cowards that cant face the Israel army and dont have the balls to do it.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 12:32 AM
What about Sudan? I don&#39;t really know whats going on there, but Islamic nations have a history of being more tolerant to religious minorities aslong as they are &#39;people of the book&#39; (ie christians or jews). I think that is what was being refered to.

Could you provide a brief outline and a link about the Sudan situation?

-Pete
OMG more tolerant, lol. more tolerant, if they are so tolerant why are their muslim terrorist in philipines they seem to want to force their religion.

Iran is tolerant to christians, catholics and jews? Afghanistan was tolerant? Syria is/was tolerant? lebanon is/was tolerant?

[Pete]

OMG more tolerant, lol. more tolerant, if they are so tolerant why are their muslim terrorist in philipines they seem to want to force their religion.

Iran is tolerant to christians, catholics and jews? Afghanistan was tolerant? Syria is/was tolerant? lebanon is/was tolerant?

The way you type makes you seem like a 14 year old girl: "OMG" and "lol" come off as immature.

You are asking me if those nations are tolerant, well I don&#39;t know. Show me that they aren&#39;t. Looking at a longer period of time, say the last 1000 years or so, I can tell you that dissenting groups living under Islamic rule where treated better than say the same groups living under Christian rule. Noncatholic Christians (catholicism is a form of christianity, just so you know) in Spain where not persecuted against by the Moors, but where by the Spainish. Many minority sects prefered Islamic rule, since they where treated better than under Christian rule, as under Islam (to my understanding) Muslims are first rate citizens, people of the book (ie jews and christians) are second rate, and everyone else is third rate. This is, of course, historically.

For the examples you mention, don&#39;t you think that actually trying to prove me wrong would be more effective than naming nations and expecting me to know what the hell you are talking about?

OMG&#33;&#33; Christians are tolerant? LOL&#33; Did you hear about that inquistion they had years ago? Or the holocaust? Or that christians are against abortion and gays? HAHA LOL What a joke&#33;

Grow the fuck up :D

Pete

[el_profe]

If you think anyone who use lol or OMG is 13 years old, then just about every internet user is immature and 13 years old.

In Saudi Arabia, Iran and in when the taliban where iin power in Afghanistan: christian, catholic bibles are not allowed. You cant have a christian church, women have to cover their face and most of their bodies.
Christians and other religions are persecuted so i dont know wtf youre talking about. MORE TOLERANT, LOL.

THE christian(catholic) nations existed more than 200 years ago, the islamic nations I mention exist today.

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 02:12 AM
THE christian(catholic) nations existed more than 200 years ago, the islamic nations I mention exist today.
Explain what the fuck you mean by that. kthx.

[Pete]

I, for one, think religion is a hinderance to humanity. I say this so you don&#39;t try and corner me, since that is a tatic that can be used to prove a point. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all believe in the same god, and all (telll me if I&#39;m wrong) see them selves as the heirs of Abraham.

Three nations do not tell me what all muslims do, nor is it any measure of the faith. I read in another thread where you made a similar claim, trying to say something like &#39;its like this in Iran so its like this everywhere.&#39; That&#39;s bullshit, plain and simple. It is just as foolish as me trying to use, say, Jehovah Witnesses, Puritans, or Baptists as models of the Christian faith. Both would be strawmen.

-Pete

Oh ya, not everyone trying to make a legitamate point using &#39;OMG&#39; and &#39;lol&#39; as means of disproving someone. -P

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 01:23 AM
Iran is tolerant to christians, catholics and jews?
Yes it is.


If you think anyone who use lol or OMG is 13 years old, then just about every internet user is immature and 13 years old.

Actualy he siad 14

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Death+Dec 29 2003, 02:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Death @ Dec 29 2003, 02:16 AM)
[email protected] 29 2003, 02:12 AM
THE christian(catholic) nations existed more than 200 years ago, the islamic nations I mention exist today.
Explain what the fuck you mean by that. kthx. [/b]
Those oppprssing christian(catholic) nations you where talking about existed more than 200 years ago.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Misodoctakleidist+Dec 29 2003, 04:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Misodoctakleidist @ Dec 29 2003, 04:08 PM)
[email protected] 29 2003, 01:23 AM
Iran is tolerant to christians, catholics and jews?
Yes it is.

[/b]
Is that why they persecute christians, wow, that is tolerant.
And since youre going to say, how do you know this, look it up on the google, persecution of christians in Iran. im tired of putting up links.

And in Saudi Arabia, they dont allow christians bibles.

[cubist]

in saudia arabia if you go to it as a christian on holiday they will allow you to have your bible, but you will not be allowed to preach,

[Intifada]

How many have the palestinian terrorist killed, palestinian terrorist mainly go after civilians because they are cowards that cant face the Israel army and dont have the balls to do it.

800 israelis have been killed in this intifada, nearly 3000 palestinians.

the israelis also go after civilians.

of course they cant face the israelis, they have nothing. israel has apaches (meant for destroying tanks) which they use on humans.

israel is the biggest terrorist state in the mid east, and that is some achievement.

[BOZG]

Yeah, anti-nationalism is quite reactionary

And where exactly did I say this? He&#39;s a reactionary bastard because he uses Nazi as a political swearword without understanding what Nazism is. It is far too common to react this way upon the left. Just label any country which we really don&#39;t like fascist.