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View Full Version : I want you to look over this poletemic before I post it on the blog (It's a critique



Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
1st December 2012, 18:44
I wrote this critique of the Austrian School a while ago and I want to post it on the r/communism group blog, however since I've only read a hundred and a half pages of Das Kapital I thought it would be good to let you look it over. Also there are a few things in my critique that go directly against Marx, such as the fact that I do not agree with him that money is a commodity since it does not have any value outside of the market place, however I don't think this is a problem because he stated very explicitly in Das Kapital that money's value as a commodity came from the fact that it's value was composed of gold, hence it's not relevant in today's world. Anyway, here we go:

A Critique of the Subjective Theory of Value

The Austrian School, believing that it has the solution to every major economic debate, has attempted to eliminate the entirety of socialist economics in one fowl swoop by disproving the Labor Theory of Value. According to Jim Cox:

"Disagreements between the socialist theory and that of the free marketeer can ultimately be traced back to the question of the theory of value"~ The Concise Guide to Economics

Oh really now Jim Cox, is that so? I was under the impression that our criticism of capitalism stemmed from the fact that under capitalism there can be 3.5 million homeless people while there are over a 18 vacant houses 1., or from the fact that it is a system that has allowed 80 million people world wide to starve to death when there is enough food produced each year to feed everyone in the world over 2700 calories!.2, or perhaps we simply disagree with capitalism because we earnestly believe the economic theories of capitalism simple don't make logical sense and that a better economic system is possible. But I digress.

Jim Cox goes on to disprove socialism by criticizing Marx's pizza craving:
"If the labor theory of value was correct then a diamond found in a diamond mine would be of no greater value than a rock found right next to it since each would require the same "amount" of labor-time... According to the labor theory of value if you have a slice of pizza for lunch, valued because of the labor-time required to produce it, you must necessarily value the next slice the same. The labor theory of value is a denial of the well-established law of diminishing marginal utility which states that the value to the consumer falls with additional consumption of the good in question. How a true believer Marxist ever justifies ceasing pizza eating is still a mystery." ~The Concise Guide to Economics

He then goes on to criticize the socialist's taste in film

"One has to wonder what two Marxists attending a movie do as they leave together. Is each timid in expressing his opinion as to the pleasure or displeasure of the experience since he may disagree with his companion?"

"After all, the movie required the same amount of labor-time in its production. How in this theory can the value of land space, a nature-given resource, ever be explained? According to the labor theory of value, if a skilled carpenter produces a solid, comfortable chair which is useful for decades in a mere four hours, whereas a klutz in four days produces a chair which collapses with the first attempted use, the latter chair is more valuable."

So what does Jim Cox propose in the place of the Labor Theory of Value?

"The alternate theory, the correct theory of value, is that value is subjective. The subjective theory of value concludes that goods have no inherent value, that goods are valuable only to the degree that there is a valuer desiring the good…Returning to the examples above, the diamond is more valuable because people enjoy a diamond more than a rock, a photo of someone dear is more important to the photo owner than a photo of a stranger. People stop eating pizza after a few slices because the (necessarily subjective) pleasure diminishes with additional consumption; different movies appeal to different patrons' tastes. A working chair is preferred to a pile of chair pieces...In short, the whole of socialist economic theory is derived from the mistaken labor theory of value--it collapses for lack of a base; the whole of free market economic theory is derived from the solid base of the valid subjective theory of value."

Admittedly, Jim Cox does make a valid point. From this point of view it would look like the value of a good can't be said to come from the price of labor since the value of a good fluctuates with the supply of the good, the demand for the good, and it's marginal utility. However, Jim Cox ignores an important question, where does value and wealth come from exactly?

Monetary wealth is not a means to itself. Money is entirely without value outside of the context of commerce and therefore cannot be called a commodity.3 because a commodity can satisfy a need or want simply through the act of possessing or using it. For example: if I work an hour and this hour is rewarded with about eight dollars, I can then use that money to purchase a good that is created by labor and has value, such as a cell phone and I can say that said cell phone was worth an hour of work. Now let’s say the cell phone is worth 16 dollars, then it's worth two hours of work. Without the context of the exchange, money has no value because the very act of work is a means of obtaining goods which have value, not the money it's self since money is no more than a physical manifestation of the total value of work possessed. Though there is one problem with this scheme.

What if I work for two hours, and find out that the price of the cell phone has now changed to three hours of work due to various market factors? Now, if the value of the good produced by work changes, then how can this be reconciled with the fact that the amount of value I possess in the form of money does not change with the value of work I did yesterday?

The answer is that the amount of money I am paid for my work is based off the value of that work at the time I was paid. Therefore money represents the value of work within a fixed amount of time, or that if I earned eight dollars yesterday from work that is now worth ten dollars today, then the money I have is still eight dollars since my money represents the value of the work yesterday rather than the constant market value of the work, since such a value doesn't exist due to the constant fluctuation of market value.
So, let’s say I am at a jewelry store and I see a rock next to a diamond. Now, I am indifferent to the amount of labor was taken to mine these objects, as like Jim Cox says, I am only interested in their marginal utility value. So If they were the same price I'd buy the diamond because the diamond has more marginal utility value, and likewise I am more willing to pay a higher price for the diamond. But when I pay for the diamond, I am making a value judgment of the diamond by agreeing that the diamond is worth the money to pay for it, and more importantly the amount of work I put in to make that money. So the value of the diamond comes from labor not because the consumer considers the diamond as valuable as the value of the labor that it took to create the diamond, but because by agreeing to purchase the diamond the consumer is agreeing that the diamond is as valuable as the work it took to be able to pay for it. Ergo, the value the diamond has according to the consumer comes from labor but not necessarily the labor it took to create the diamond but rather the value judgment that the consumer makes every time he consents that the price of a good is equal or less than the amount of labor it takes to pay that price. However there is another problem with this, how can a diamond be hundreds of dollars and days of work if the work.

The answer is that in order for the capitalist to make a profit, he pays the worker less than the full monetary value of his work and pockets the remaining surplus value for himself. The very system of wage labor is defined by extracting this unpaid surplus labor from the wage laborer and therefore rewarding the wage laborer far less than he has actually created. For example, if a capitalist pays a diamond miner 7 dollars for every diamond that the miner can bring to him (which is the common rate for African miners) then he can resell said diamond for 100 dollars, thus earning him a profit of 93 dollars without contributing to any value creation while the creator of wealth himself receives only a measly 7 dollars of labor value when the full value of his labor is 100 dollars. Therefore, the relationship between the creator of value, the worker, and the capitalist that employs him is a parasitic relationship where the worker, under the threat of death through starvation, works for the capitalist and only receives partial payment for the value he creates, while the himself capitalist receives the majority of the value created by the worker without creating value himself.

The extraction of surplus labor from wage labor by the capitalist is proof that capitalism is an inherently exploitative system and that the existence of the capitalist class is only possible as long as the worker is exploited. If the merit of socialist economics and capitalist economics is entirely based on the labor theory of value, then the fact that the labor theory of value proves that capitalism can not help but to oppress the working class ultimately demonstrates the folly of those who believe that capitalism is the least oppressive economic system and that the working class can be emancipated from anything less than a socialist revolution.

Notes 1.http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/more_vacant_homes_than_homeless_in_us_20111231/ 2.http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htm 3. While Marx did say that money was a commodity, this was because money was fixed to gold during Marx’s time. Since that is no longer the case, then it can be said that money is not a commodity as it has no value independent of the market place.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
4th December 2012, 22:46
A Critique of the Subjective Theory of Value

The Austrian School, believing that it has the solution to every major economic debate, has attempted to eliminate the entirety of socialist economics in one fowl swoop by disproving the Labor Theory of Value.

*One fell swoop.


According to Jim Cox:
"Disagreements between the socialist theory and that of the free marketeer can ultimately be traced back to the question of the theory of value"~ The Concise Guide to Economics

Oh really now Jim Cox, is that so? I was under the impression that our criticism of capitalism stemmed from the fact that under capitalism there can be 3.5 million homeless people while there are over a 18 vacant houses 1., or from the fact that it is a system that has allowed 80 million people world wide to starve to death when there is enough food produced each year to feed everyone in the world over 2700 calories!.2, or perhaps we simply disagree with capitalism because we earnestly believe the economic theories of capitalism simple don't make logical sense and that a better economic system is possible. But I digress.

Actually, I think Jim Cox is correct. We must approach the task of critiquing capitalism not through some subjective, value-laden moralistic argument, because capitalism can then easily defend itself (quite rightly) by saying that it is

a) the most revolutionary system in history hitherto against all value-laden criteria that you lay out, and
b) it has been improving living standards, in a great number (though not all!) places where capitalist social and market structures have developed, over a period of time, of course at a varying rate depending on one's position in society, mainly the relation of one to the means of production.


Jim Cox goes on to disprove socialism by criticizing Marx's pizza craving:
"If the labor theory of value was correct then a diamond found in a diamond mine would be of no greater value than a rock found right next to it since each would require the same "amount" of labor-time... According to the labor theory of value if you have a slice of pizza for lunch, valued because of the labor-time required to produce it, you must necessarily value the next slice the same. The labor theory of value is a denial of the well-established law of diminishing marginal utility which states that the value to the consumer falls with additional consumption of the good in question. How a true believer Marxist ever justifies ceasing pizza eating is still a mystery." ~The Concise Guide to Economics

This is consumer value - i.e. exchange value. Sure, he is right that I might be willing to pay 10 quid for a pizza, but probably not 20 quid for 2 pizzas because I only want one pizza, but yeah if somebody offered me 2 pizzas for 11 quid then i'd probably take it just cos it's a good deal. But that is what we call a 'black box' approach to production. It treates value as objective - that exchange value or 'the price' is always equal to the true value of the product. This is not true, the water/diamonds paradox deals with this quite well: water is abundant, socially useful (i.e. high utility, both aggregated and on a micro level) yet fucking cheap, diamonds are rare, socially useless but dear. Why? Because diamonds are bloody difficult to extract yet water is generally abundant, of course. This means that to bring a diamond from the ground to market requires huge labour power in relation to bringing water from a spring to a bottle, or from a water reserve to a tap. Demand does drive value to some extent in that a good's inherent value must be judged by its social usefulness (its 'social utility') to some extent, so there is some truth in diminishing marginal utility in some cases, but to say, as Cox says, that this is the only case is a huge falsification and totally ignores the true mechanics of the production process.


He then goes on to criticize the socialist's taste in film

"One has to wonder what two Marxists attending a movie do as they leave together. Is each timid in expressing his opinion as to the pleasure or displeasure of the experience since he may disagree with his companion?"

"After all, the movie required the same amount of labor-time in its production. How in this theory can the value of land space, a nature-given resource, ever be explained? According to the labor theory of value, if a skilled carpenter produces a solid, comfortable chair which is useful for decades in a mere four hours, whereas a klutz in four days produces a chair which collapses with the first attempted use, the latter chair is more valuable."

The first bit is just stupid ad hominem, don't rise. The second bit ignores 'socially necessary labour time'. For this read 'socially useful labour time'. A shit product is of no social use: it will break and has no inherent value as a chair, if it doesn't perform the basic functions of a chair. The labour theory of value has two components: labour time, and the extent to which this labour time is socially useful. No Socialist is so dimwitted to argue that an hour spent in a factory dipping one's finger in already-pasteurised milk to quality control is as useful as somebody spending one hour producing a high-value, high-demand, socially useful technological good, for example.


So what does Jim Cox propose in the place of the Labor Theory of Value?

"The alternate theory, the correct theory of value, is that value is subjective. The subjective theory of value concludes that goods have no inherent value, that goods are valuable only to the degree that there is a valuer desiring the good…Returning to the examples above, the diamond is more valuable because people enjoy a diamond more than a rock, a photo of someone dear is more important to the photo owner than a photo of a stranger. People stop eating pizza after a few slices because the (necessarily subjective) pleasure diminishes with additional consumption; different movies appeal to different patrons' tastes. A working chair is preferred to a pile of chair pieces...In short, the whole of socialist economic theory is derived from the mistaken labor theory of value--it collapses for lack of a base; the whole of free market economic theory is derived from the solid base of the valid subjective theory of value."

Admittedly, Jim Cox does make a valid point. From this point of view it would look like the value of a good can't be said to come from the price of labor since the value of a good fluctuates with the supply of the good, the demand for the good, and it's marginal utility. However, Jim Cox ignores an important question, where does value and wealth come from exactly?

Monetary wealth is not a means to itself. Money is entirely without value outside of the context of commerce and therefore cannot be called a commodity.3 because a commodity can satisfy a need or want simply through the act of possessing or using it. For example: if I work an hour and this hour is rewarded with about eight dollars, I can then use that money to purchase a good that is created by labor and has value, such as a cell phone and I can say that said cell phone was worth an hour of work. Now let’s say the cell phone is worth 16 dollars, then it's worth two hours of work. Without the context of the exchange, money has no value because the very act of work is a means of obtaining goods which have value, not the money it's self since money is no more than a physical manifestation of the total value of work possessed. Though there is one problem with this scheme.

What if I work for two hours, and find out that the price of the cell phone has now changed to three hours of work due to various market factors? Now, if the value of the good produced by work changes, then how can this be reconciled with the fact that the amount of value I possess in the form of money does not change with the value of work I did yesterday?

The answer is that the amount of money I am paid for my work is based off the value of that work at the time I was paid. Therefore money represents the value of work within a fixed amount of time, or that if I earned eight dollars yesterday from work that is now worth ten dollars today, then the money I have is still eight dollars since my money represents the value of the work yesterday rather than the constant market value of the work, since such a value doesn't exist due to the constant fluctuation of market value.
So, let’s say I am at a jewelry store and I see a rock next to a diamond. Now, I am indifferent to the amount of labor was taken to mine these objects, as like Jim Cox says, I am only interested in their marginal utility value. So If they were the same price I'd buy the diamond because the diamond has more marginal utility value, and likewise I am more willing to pay a higher price for the diamond. But when I pay for the diamond, I am making a value judgment of the diamond by agreeing that the diamond is worth the money to pay for it, and more importantly the amount of work I put in to make that money. So the value of the diamond comes from labor not because the consumer considers the diamond as valuable as the value of the labor that it took to create the diamond, but because by agreeing to purchase the diamond the consumer is agreeing that the diamond is as valuable as the work it took to be able to pay for it. Ergo, the value the diamond has according to the consumer comes from labor but not necessarily the labor it took to create the diamond but rather the value judgment that the consumer makes every time he consents that the price of a good is equal or less than the amount of labor it takes to pay that price. However there is another problem with this, how can a diamond be hundreds of dollars and days of work if the work.

The answer is that in order for the capitalist to make a profit, he pays the worker less than the full monetary value of his work and pockets the remaining surplus value for himself. The very system of wage labor is defined by extracting this unpaid surplus labor from the wage laborer and therefore rewarding the wage laborer far less than he has actually created. For example, if a capitalist pays a diamond miner 7 dollars for every diamond that the miner can bring to him (which is the common rate for African miners) then he can resell said diamond for 100 dollars, thus earning him a profit of 93 dollars without contributing to any value creation while the creator of wealth himself receives only a measly 7 dollars of labor value when the full value of his labor is 100 dollars. Therefore, the relationship between the creator of value, the worker, and the capitalist that employs him is a parasitic relationship where the worker, under the threat of death through starvation, works for the capitalist and only receives partial payment for the value he creates, while the himself capitalist receives the majority of the value created by the worker without creating value himself.

The extraction of surplus labor from wage labor by the capitalist is proof that capitalism is an inherently exploitative system and that the existence of the capitalist class is only possible as long as the worker is exploited. If the merit of socialist economics and capitalist economics is entirely based on the labor theory of value, then the fact that the labor theory of value proves that capitalism can not help but to oppress the working class ultimately demonstrates the folly of those who believe that capitalism is the least oppressive economic system and that the working class can be emancipated from anything less than a socialist revolution.

This isn't bad. I think you should develop the point about money further: that money largely means you are comparing apples and oranges, since the exchange value of a good (it's price) is not really based on any sort of labour time, it is based on profit margins, costs (of which labour inputs are only one part), technological progress, market structure. The last point - market structure - is particularly important. Markets for stuff like diamonds, oil are not competitive. There is no element that restricts the price the likes of De Beers or Shell can charge, and it is almost needless to argue with the Austrian School on this point because the facts show quite clearly that capital mobility - a point where they and us both agree - has the tendency in these examples they city - diamonds for example - to move towards where capital already is, resulting in a move towards monopoly, in whatever degree. The Austrian model of entrepreneurship and of market prices being a direct mechanism for the value of a product really fail here; how can we honestly say that the shareholders, the executives, the managers in legal cartels such as the big diamond and oil companies are 'entrepreneurs' - they don't create jobs, they take away jobs. They create value only insofar as they increase - artificially - the exchange value (and thus, according to Austrian logic, the true value) of their goods. Is it true that petrol today in the UK is worth nearly 180% of what it was 3 years ago? I doubt it - people probably consume the same amount of petrol as they did 3 years ago, it is price inelastic and that has allowed monopoly! There's no need for 'entrepreneurship' in an oligopolistic situation. No jobs are created, the only increase in value comes from artificial, whimsical hikes in price which benefit not the workers getting sacked/working for shit wages in terrible conditions, not the consumers who pay wellllll in excess of the true value of the good, but the capitalists who congregate their already existing capital around these already-large existing centres of capital!
Notes 1.http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/more_vacant_homes_than_homeless_in_us_20111231/ 2.http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htm 3. While Marx did say that money was a commodity, this was because money was fixed to gold during Marx’s time. Since that is no longer the case, then it can be said that money is not a commodity as it has no value independent of the market place.[/QUOTE]

Vladimir Innit Lenin
5th December 2012, 02:20
Also, if you want to talk about the labour theory of value as a sort of 'proof' theory, you may want to actually employ the theory: rate of surplus/exploitation, rate of profit and such things.

The LTV certainly has shortcomings (such as Marx's mis-judgement on the composition of organic capital) which need to be addressed, and I think in addressing such problems (i.e. does an increase in the composition of organic capital via technological advance not mean that surplus and labour costs can both increase at the same time?) it would make your argument academically more rigorous; too many Marxian Socialists argue a quite tired, repetitive-old-Marx sort of argument on the LTV and capitalist exploitation, without:

a) giving enough dues to the historically revolutionary achievements of capitalism, relative to other systems that have existed
b) understanding the shortcomings and/or inaccuracies in Marx's own body of work and being able to critically evaluate his work in order to come up with conclusions more appropriate to what we know now, than he did, bearing in mind he was writing 1.5 centuries ago!

RedMaterialist
5th December 2012, 04:04
Something very brief on the labor theory of value:

1. The idea that the value of all commodities is derived from labor, comes, surprisingly, from Adam Smith and David Ricardo, not Karl Marx. The "wealth of nations" is the wealth created by labor.

2. According to Smith and, later, Marx, value or profit originates in the process of production, and, therefore, exists before the commodity enters the market.

3. The (average) price of a product is the labor cost plus non-labor (such as interest, rent, materials, etc.) However, the capitalist does not pay the full labor cost. He only pays the cost of wages. The additional labor is supplied by the worker in the form of surplus value. The capitalist keeps this additional value added by the worker.

4. The captialists and the Austrians (and other free marketeers) believe that the profit (or surplus value) originates in the market because that is where the surplus value first appears as money-profit. The price of the product is, say, $10, because that is its actual value. But the capitalist only paid $5 for it in wages and, say, $2 in non-labor costs. But the capitalist and the Austrian apologist for capitalism see that the capitalist sells the commodity for $10, thus they assume that the profit, $3, comes from the magic of the market. Marx went through all this in Capital, Chapters VI and VII.

The Austrians thus had to try to prove that profit originates in the process of buying and selling, in the market. Thus far, they have tried the "marginal" theory of value, that each consumer puts his or her own value on the same commodity, thus the "subjective" theory of value; now I think that they have switched theories to something called the "opportunity cost" theory, which is supposed to mean that there is an additional cost of production which is not accounted for, but nevertheless, the capitalist takes as the basis for his profit.

The entire basis of the Austrian theory of value is that value or profit originates in the market. Marx exploded this theory 150 yrs ago. It amazes me that it still is the dominant economic theory today.

By the way, economic statistics today can prove that a worker under capitalism always produces more value than what he is she is paid. The median value produced by a worker is about $50 per hour, while the median wage is about $25. These numbers come from the OECD. In the U.S. the labor statistics consistently show the index of productivity is always higher than the labor cost index.

RedMaterialist
5th December 2012, 04:29
Jim Cox goes on to disprove socialism by criticizing Marx's pizza craving:
"If the labor theory of value was correct then a diamond found in a diamond mine would be of no greater value than a rock found right next to it since each would require the same "amount" of labor-time..

By the way, it is "polemic."

The diamond argument has been around for a long time. "A diamond found in a diamond mine would be of no greater value than a rock found right next to it since each would require the same amount of labor time." You could use a thousand man-hours of labor time, and blood and sweat to produce a rock, but it would still be worthless. The time used to produce the diamond is an altogether different kind of labor time: socially necessary labor time. There is nothing socially necessary in producing a single rock, on the other hand, diamonds are a girl's best friend. Marx, by the way, predicted that if a way could be found to convert carbon to diamonds, then diamonds would be as cheap as bricks. Hello!!! Laboratories can produce gem quality diamonds now, because of the reduction in the amount of labor contained in them.


I would like for the marginal utility theorists to explain this to me. There are 20 diamonds on a table. Each worth about $10k. Now, I pick up the first one and buy it. I go to the next one. I buy it and pay less for the second one. By the time I get to the 18th diamond, diamonds have become useless for me, so I only pay $5 for each additional diamond. I pick up my diamonds and leave the jewellers. I explain the marginal theory of utility to the jeweller. He calls the cops.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
5th December 2012, 10:53
I would like for the marginal utility theorists to explain this to me. There are 20 diamonds on a table. Each worth about $10k. Now, I pick up the first one and buy it. I go to the next one. I buy it and pay less for the second one. By the time I get to the 18th diamond, diamonds have become useless for me, so I only pay $5 for each additional diamond. I pick up my diamonds and leave the jewellers. I explain the marginal theory of utility to the jeweller. He calls the cops.

I think they would explain it in terms of 'price makers' and 'price takers'. You demand x amount of diamonds for price y. You are a price taker. The 'entrepreneur' supplies x amount of diamonds. If he supplies x amount for price >y, you will not buy. If he supplies it for y, you will buy it. If his price is y and you purchase it for <y, as he is the price maker, I believe that this is just essentially theft, because as a business the diamond is seen as his property until you match his price, ergo taking it for less is stealing his property rights, capitalism doesn't like that blah blah.

Also I think they would throw in the concept of equilibrium. If your marginal utility is such that you will only meet the price maker for 1 diamond, and you would only have 3 diamonds for less than the market price, then supply > demand, essentially, at the market price.

I think that's how they'd explain it.

RedMaterialist
5th December 2012, 14:26
I think they would explain it in terms of 'price makers' and 'price takers'. You demand x amount of diamonds for price y. You are a price taker. The 'entrepreneur' supplies x amount of diamonds. If he supplies x amount for price >y, you will not buy. If he supplies it for y, you will buy it. If his price is y and you purchase it for <y, as he is the price maker, I believe that this is just essentially theft, because as a business the diamond is seen as his property until you match his price, ergo taking it for less is stealing his property rights, capitalism doesn't like that blah blah.

Also I think they would throw in the concept of equilibrium. If your marginal utility is such that you will only meet the price maker for 1 diamond, and you would only have 3 diamonds for less than the market price, then supply > demand, essentially, at the market price.

I think that's how they'd explain it.

Thanks for the response. Marginal Utility, as I understand it, is based on the idea that value is determined by the utility or use that I, or any individual consumer, has for any one commodity. If I purchase one slice of pizza and eat it, then I would have less utility for each additional slice of pizza, and would be willing to pay a marginally less amount for each slice, thus giving the next slice of pizza less value than the first one, each slice having a disappearing utillity.

Marginal Utility thus focuses only on the use-value which an individual consumer would have for one commodity; the theory completely ignores the exchange value of a commodity.

I would say, in the simplest terms, that the marginalists believe that price or value is determined by the consumer, sort of a demand side economics. Value for them appears out of nowhere and disappears just as easily.

I think I will pose my 20 diamond question to the people at Marginal Revolution and see what response I get.