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TheGodlessUtopian
30th November 2012, 04:51
For decades now the religious right has espoused the antiquated belief that through faith, prayer, and submission to god a homosexual person can be converted to heterosexuality. This is an outright lie. An individuals sexual orientation is an inborn and unchangeable feature about them and cannot be changed, altered, or morphed under any circumstances or settings. Testimonials to the contrary are usually short lived opinions by people who later discover that they simply repressed their feelings instead of changing. The bigots on the right, and in some cases the left, hold up discredited pseudo-science as their guiding light and worm in under democratic freedoms their supposed right to spew their hate but such language has long been fought and will continue to be fought.

Ever since American Psychiatric Association (A.P.A) removed homosexuality from their list of diseases in 1973 the social landscape began to shift towards a more enlightened understanding. Activism picked up in areas where gay and lesbian participation was previously unseen and more and more civil rights were being won in states all across the United States and indeed the world. From the A.P.As monumental decision other health organizations followed. Soon all the major psychological associations removed homosexuality from their respective lists and the public gradually swayed to the side of progressive change.

However, not all embraced the changes, for American society had long been ruled by conservative and liberal hatemongers who understood little about their own sexual orientation other than their lust for women. Naturally, with such ignorance pervading society many reactionary groups sprung up to oppose further progress. From this backlash emerged the ultimate perversion: religious backed Ex-Gay Ministries.

With the first Ex-Gay ministry founded in the same year that the A.P.A removed homosexuality as a disease the religious right showed that they intended to fight progress at any cost. Love In Action was the first Ex-Gay ministry and fell apart relatively quickly when one of the founders, Jack McIntyre, committed suicide after not being able to change, and another left after realizing that changing was impossible.

After Rev. Kent Philpott wrote his infamous book, The Third Sex, which featured six homosexuals who had claimed to convert to heterosexuality (though it was later revealed that all the individuals did in fact not change but simply suppressed their feelings) dozens of other reorientation ministries popped up claiming to help those struggling with unwanted homosexuality. It would only be a few years later, in September of 1976, that the largest Ex-Gay ministry, Exodus International, would be created thus launching the struggle for gay pride and identity into a deadly fight for survival.



Ex-Gay Therapy



The techniques employed by so called Ex-gay therapists are cultish at best. Among the list of stunning mind-control and alteration demands are, according to gay wonder blog Truth Wins Out: snapping a rubber band on your wrist every time you are aroused by another man (or another woman if you are a lesbian), looking at a tree/wall and repeatedly saying that it is a color which it isnt and forcing yourself to believe it, always striving to win otherwise defeat will cause homosexual thoughts, conversion through hypnosis, playing sports will make you a heterosexual (assuming that no homosexuals happily play sports), and gaining weight. Needless to say none of these ridiculous methods will cure anything, let alone convert someone to a foreign orientation. However, to gain a real appreciation for how absurd these techniques are hear some quotes from the wackjobs themselves

My weight started to increase, and I found little desire to keep on a strict diet and stay fashionably slim. My very appearance was changing. I was looking less and less gay. And I was perfectly happy about it.(John Paulk, Author, Not Afraid to Change)

I would start to experience a sexual response So I would look out my car window and say something like, Gosh, Lord, there a tree out there! That tree is green, and has leaves on it. It got brown bark. I would fix my mind on anything to distract myselfOver time, that made me mentally disciplined enough to displace all lesbian thoughts, period.(Anne Paulk, Co-Author, Love Won Out)

When we consider that there is no objective distinction between homosexuality and the other perversions, we can easily see how the development of the homosexual habit fits into this framework (of cures through medication). Some [homosexuals]are being successfully treated with Prozac. Here too, sexual reorientation is reported to have occurred incidentally. (Dr. Jeffrey Satinover , M.D., Author, Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth)

Non-homosexual men who experience defeat and failure may also experience homosexual fantasies or dreams. (Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality)
The list goes on and on.



Ex-Gay Scandals: Caught in the Lie



If there is one thing that so-called Ex-Gays are proficient at it is lying through their deluded teeth.Over the courseof the Ex-Gay movement there have been several high profile defections and scandals which prove the asinine claims of change are faulty.

On September 19th, 2000 Jon Paulk, chairman of Exodus International, was photographed at a gay bar in Washington D.C. The incident cost him his job at Exodus.

In 2003 Michael Johnston, founder of The National Coming Out of Homosexuality Day, resigned after allegations rose that he had sex with men he had met on the internet.

In 2000, Wade Richards appeared as a media spokesperson for a group called the Saviors Alliance for Lifting the Truth and gave his testimony of change at a major press conference sponsored by right-wing zealot Peter LaBarbera, who now works at Americans For Truth. But a year later, Richards rebuked the ex-gay ministries when he came out in an interview with the Advocate magazine

In the early 1970′ Gary Cooper and Michael Bussee were counselors at an ex-gay ministry in Anaheim, Calif. In 1976, they organized the first national conference of ex-gay ministries. At this conference, Exodus International was formed and it is now the world largest ex-gay organization. While traveling on behalf of Exodus, the two men acknowledged that they had not changed and were in love with each other. They soon divorced their wives, moved in together and held a commitment ceremony. In 2006, Bussee apologized at an Ex-Gay Survivors Conference for his key role in starting Exodus International

Colin Cook, founder of Homosexuals Anonymous, found his career had collapsed after it was discovered he had been giving nude massages to his patients. Later, when he was once more in the Ex-Gay industry, he once more found his career in jeopardy after accusations of phone sex, hugging and other such behavior surfaced.

In 1987, Jeremy Marks founded Courage, London first ex-gay ministry. In 2001, after nearly 15 years of watching people including himself struggle in vain to change, he renounced Exodus, saying that they were failing in their efforts to change peoples sexual orientation

Desert Stream ministries acknowledged in their Mid-Year 2001 Report that, At the end of 2000, we faced an unusual number of Desert-Stream-related leaders who fell into sexual sin, or who at least demonstrated a colossal lack of wisdom in their social choicesSeveral were placed on different plans of discipline and restoration.

In its Summer 2003 newsletter, Portland Fellowship announced that its long-time director Phil Hobizal was stepping down because of an emotional entanglement with a man.

In Sept. 2007, ex-gay therapist Christopher Austin was convicted of sexually assaulting a client.

In 2002, therapist Richard Cohen, former president of Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays (PFOX) and head of the International Healing Foundation (IHF) was permanently expelled [from] the American Counseling Association.
As any with a functioning brain can see the scandals of the Ex-gay movement spread far and wide. The statistics of those who relapsed back into homosexuality are expectedly high as well as those who later came out and said that Ex-Gay therapy is bogus and cannot change anything about you, let along your sexual orientation.

The glaring inconsistences listed above are, of course, the more prominent. One cannot overlook the countless scandals which involved Ex-Gay therapists sexually abusing their clients, activists being convicted on child pornography, and a vast multitude of other hypocrisies and societal cancers reflected in the behaviors of such people.

The Ex-Gay industry is built on occurrences like this because no amount of therapy, prayer, worship, or faith will ever change a persons sexual orientation or identity. The most one can hope for is denial and repression. However, since the vast majority of people do not deal well with denial they inevitably end up spilling the beans and confessing to the deranged nature of reorientation techniques.

With California the first such state to officially ban all so-called reparative therapy earlier in 2012 truly the signs are there which show that not only are the Ex-gays a severely repressed group of society but that civilization at large is coming to reject their asinine espousals as well.



Real Science: The Biological Evidence of Innate Development



Now that you have heard the ridiculous claims made by the religious right it is time to hear the evidence which asserts that sexual orientation is an inborn trait and is not something chosen by the individual.

In 1993, the National Institute of Health Dean Hamer illustrated that homosexuality might be inherited from the mother by her sons through a specific region of the X chromosome (Xq28). Hamer demonstrated this by noting that 33 out of 40 pairs of homosexual brothers whom he studied showed the same variation in the tip of the chromosome.
- Hamer DH, Hu S, Magnuson VL, Hu N. and Pattatucci AML. A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome and male sexual orientation. Science 1993; 261:320-326.

A June 2006 Canadian study published in the journal, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, said that nature, instead of nurture, explains the origins of homosexuality. The study author, Prof. Anthony F. Bogaert, at Brock University in Ontario, explored the causes behind what is known as the fraternal birth order. The research showed a correlation between the number of biological older brothers a man has and his sexual orientation. Dividing his sample of more than 900 heterosexual and homosexual men into four groups, Bogaert examined the impact of all types of older brothers, including step and adopted siblings, and the amount of time brothers spent together while growing up.His research found that only the number of biological brothers had an impact on sexuality, regardless of whether the boys were raised together.
- Bogaert, A.F. 2006. Biological versus nonbiological older brothers and mens sexual orientation. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 103 July 11 2006.

* A study released in May 2006 by Swedish scientists demonstrates that biology plays a key role in determining a person sexuality. The research shows that the portion of the brain that helps regulate sexuality the hypothalamus reacted the exact same way in straight women and gay men when exposed to male pheromones, which are chemicals designed to provoke a behavior, such as sexual arousal. The same area of the brain only became stimulated in heterosexual men when introduced to female pheromones.
- by Ivanka Savic article in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, (PNAS) Brain Response To Putative Pheromones In Homosexual Men, (Vol. 102 No. 19) May 10, 2005.

* In 2005, Dr. Brian Mustanski of the University of Illinois at Chicago published a study in the esteemed biomedical journal Human Genetics, claiming he identified three chromosomal regions linked to sexual orientation in men: 7q36, 8p12 and 10q26.
- A Genomewide Scan of Male Sexual Orientation, Human Genetics, Vol. 116, No. 4, pp. 272-278, 2005.

* In 2003, University of Texas psychoacoustics specialist Dennis McFadden found that when measuring the way the brain reacts to sound, lesbians fell in between heterosexual men and straight women, suggesting they might be exposed to higher than normal levels of male hormone in utero.
- Loehlin, John C.; McFadden, David. Otoacoustic emissions, auditory evoked potentials, and traits related to sex and sexual orientation. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 1 April 2003.

* In 2003, University of Liverpool biologist John T. Manning found that the lesbians whom he studied have a hand pattern that resembles a man more than a straight female. Manning concluded from his study that this strongly tells us that female homosexuals have had higher levels of exposure to testosterone before birth.
- Neave, N., Laing, S., Fink, B., Manning, J.T (2003) Second to fourth digit ratio, testosterone, and perceived male dominance. Proceedings of the Royal Society B (Lond), 270, 2167-2172.

* A 1991 study by Dr. Simon LeVay found that a specific region of the hypothalamus is twice as large in heterosexual men as it is in women or gay men. This strongly points the role of biology in sexual orientation.
- Levay, Simon A difference in hypothalamic structure between homosexual and heterosexual men Science. 1991 Volume 253, Issue 5023, pp. 1034-1037.

* Another 1991 study by scientists Richard Pillard and John M. Baily studied homosexuality among brothers and found that 53 percent of identical twins were both gay. In adoptive brothers, 11 percent were both homosexual. Of non-twin biological siblings, 9 percent were gay. Again, this points to solid evidence that homosexuality is a matter of nature.
- Bailey JM, Pillard RC (1991). A genetic study of male sexual orientation. Archives of General Psychiatry, 48, 1089-1096.

* The JUN/JUL 2006 issue of Seed Magazine points out that at least 450 vertebrate species engage in homosexual behavior.
- Lehrer, Jonah. The Gay Animal kingdom Seed Magazine. Jun/Jul 2006.

AS you can Cleary see the evidence overwhelmingly points to inborn, genetic factors which determine ones sexual orientation, and NOT choice, molestation, sex, rape, or any other garbage fantasy imagined by the bigotedly ignorant.



The Ex-Gay Assault on Youth and Education



Despite this mountain of evidence that proves Ex-Gay therapy false the religious right not only continues their battle to misinform but brings their crusade into the realm of public education.

Some wide, and potent, examples of the religiously deluded attempting to, and sometimes succeeding, in their hateful war are as follows

On May 2, 2006, Orlando-based Liberty Counsel and Washington-based Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays (PFOX) launched their joint Change is Possible Campaign. The goal is to threaten schools with frivolous lawsuits unless they allow the scientifically bankrupt message of ex-gays into classrooms.

The Christian Post reported in April 2006 that Liberty Counsel will ask students to distribute literature and put up posters promoting ex-gay messages. We also encourage them to start Gay to Straight Clubs, and ask that the ex-gay viewpoint be included in all diversity day presentations that discuss homosexuality, said a statement from the law firm.

Viroqua High School, near La Crosse, Wisconsin, cancelled Diversity Day in March 2006 after the Liberty Counsel threatened a lawsuit unless ex-gays were allowed to participate.

A high school in New Hampshire invited ex-gay activist Aaron Shorey to present his story on Civil Rights Day last year. Hes working with several other New England schools to get permission for similar presentations. The ex-gay group Inqueery, based in Des Moines, has also sent speakers to public high schools. In Boulder, Colo., educators are considering including an ex-gay pamphlet in a resource guide to help teachers handle questions about sexuality.

Similar lawsuits may be filed in New Jersey where Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality (JONAH) is seeking parents and students willing to sue to get the ex-gay view into schools.

In 2005, a federal judge sided with PFOX in a lawsuit against a Maryland school district. PFOX had sued to block the districts new sex-education curriculum, arguing that its treatment of homosexuality was biased. The judge wrongly agreed that students should hear pseudo-science and PFOX now has a seat on the committee charged with drafting new lesson plans.

When dealing with the religious right it is important to remember that they are not interested in democracy or freedom but rather only in their own twisted theocratic version of America. They will bully, intimidate, and coerce their view anywhere which it is not already present.

The Ex-Gay target youth because children are often the most venerable members of our society. Still mired in the pit of adolescence and all the sexual frustration that goes with coming of age the theocrats need the clocks to turn back to a time when all signs of Queer culture and identity were violently erased. Since this condition no longer exists in many European and American societies they are reduced to petty indoctrination. Ignoring the fact that the Ex-Gay industry actively has within its ranks people who fake to be Ex-Gay in exchange for money, the monetary attraction is another primary reason why many so called Ex-Gay therapists have arisen; guilt, hatred, a way out all have common endnote- money; money which goes straight in the pockets of homophobes and sell-outs. Making a quick buck has never been more deadly.

This is the realty of the Ex-Gay movement: a mass of hypocritical, hatemongering, zealots which bully their way into schools, recruit the young to their deluded message, and spread forth lies. There is nothing remotely true in the words of such preachers. If there are any redeeming qualities it is that some have seen the light and have fought back against the hate.

There is no such thing as Ex-Gay, Only people who have deluded themselves into believing that they have changed. No amount of prayer, worship, faith, or therapy will ever cause someone to change sexual orientation. Everyone is inborn with an orientation and such a concrete fact is unbreakable and unchangeable.

Heterosexuals cannot go gay.

Homosexual cannot go straight.

and we all are equal before the universe.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Prominent Ex-Gay Groups
Ex-Gay Industry Snapshot
Courage (Catholic)
Evergreen (Mormon)
Exodus International
Exodus Youth
Homosexuals Anonymous
Inqueery
Janet Boynes Ministries
JONAH
Love Won Out
PFOX
Southern Baptist Convention
Source: http://thequeerproject.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/the-ex-gay-myth/

ind_com
30th November 2012, 05:18
For decades now the religious right has espoused the antiquated belief that through faith, prayer, and submission to god a homosexual person can be converted to heterosexuality.

They also wish to cure people of evolutionism that way.

TheGodlessUtopian
30th November 2012, 05:21
They also wish to cure people of evolutionism that way.

True, really anything which goes against their dogma.

Domela Nieuwenhuis
30th November 2012, 05:43
Seriously? Are people really that dumb?

TheGodlessUtopian
30th November 2012, 05:47
Seriously? Are people really that dumb?

Unfortunately, yes. Centuries of ignorance and reactionary religious condemnations take their toll.

Danielle Ni Dhighe
30th November 2012, 09:34
This is another form of violence against LGBT people.

Goblin
30th November 2012, 10:37
The people behind these groups should be arrested. They have caused some serious emotional damage to alot of people.

l'Enfermé
30th November 2012, 12:46
They also wish to cure people of evolutionism that way.
I thought you were from India and I didn't know that there are so many far-right Christian protestants running around India trying to cure people of their belief in evolution and gayness and such. :rolleyes:

Avanti
30th November 2012, 13:02
most heterosexuals

are really bisexuals

in denial

Danielle Ni Dhighe
30th November 2012, 13:22
most heterosexuals

are really bisexuals

in denial
As a bisexual, I disagree. No one has the right to tell anyone else what their sexual orientation is.

mew
30th November 2012, 14:48
i'm not sure that i believe sexual orientation is inborn and unchangeable. it's not really the marxist pov of human sexuality is it? like marxists often talk about how before capitalism or at least class society sexuality was a lot more fluid and less defined; just less rigid than the categories of gay/straight/bisexual that we have today (obviously there's 'queer' etc today but that isn't really mainstream.) note: none of this should be taken to mean that the gay conversion therapy isn't disgusting pseudo-science.

Devrim
30th November 2012, 15:13
i'm not sure that i believe sexual orientation is inborn and unchangeable.

Neither do I, and I consider myself to be quite a genetic determinist. Even things that we consider to be 'genetic' tend to have some environmental factors involved in them, and even then are only tendencies.

To me the article seemed contradictory when it stated:


An individuals sexual orientation is an inborn and unchangeable feature about them and cannot be changed, altered, or morphed under any circumstances or settings.

and:


Another 1991 study by scientists Richard Pillard and John M. Baily studied homosexuality among brothers and found that 53 percent of identical twins were both gay. In adoptive brothers, 11 percent were both homosexual. Of non-twin biological siblings, 9 percent were gay. Again, this points to solid evidence that homosexuality is a matter of nature.
- Bailey JM, Pillard RC (1991). A genetic study of male sexual orientation. Archives of General Psychiatry, 48, 1089-1096.

To me this also states that 47% of the identical twins were not both gay. Now 53% is a very high figure, and I think it shows quite clearly that there is some sort of genetic tendency here, but there must be something else involved here. After all 100% of identical twins have the same eye colour, something which is completely genetically determined, as their siblings.

To me then what this suggests is that 'nurture' plays some role.

Devrim

Thirsty Crow
30th November 2012, 15:24
In my opinion, the focus, the terrain chosen by LGBTQ activists is wrong. The dichotomy posed is natural-learned, but this only represents the agreement to the terms set by the bigots.
Why should it matter, apart from the inrterests of the scientific community, if sexual orientation is completely inborn or not? The point should precisely be that this is a diversion from the real issue - social problems faced by the LGBTQ community and the fight against it by, among other means, revealing both the consequences of bigotry and its lack of any kind of a rational basis.

Jimmie Higgins
30th November 2012, 20:45
In my opinion, the focus, the terrain chosen by LGBTQ activists is wrong. The dichotomy posed is natural-learned, but this only represents the agreement to the terms set by the bigots.
Why should it matter, apart from the inrterests of the scientific community, if sexual orientation is completely inborn or not? The point should precisely be that this is a diversion from the real issue - social problems faced by the LGBTQ community and the fight against it by, among other means, revealing both the consequences of bigotry and its lack of any kind of a rational basis.

I agree I think the point of these ex-gay programs is less about the induviduals involved and more of an ideological stunt to de-legitimize homosexual attractions and relationships.

If you say, "OK, what if it is a choice, so fucking what?". Then they have to respond, "well... then that's a bad choice. Why? Um, because god said so".

So it kind of takes the argument back to it's focus: not if homosexual behavior is wrong, but why this other group of people want to control and repress sexual minorities.

Lots of people I know really are adamate about sexual attraction being inborn though. I think the rights use of "choice" is part of that reason, people are offended that something as important as their attractions and a whole part of their experience is being treated like they woke up and thought, instead of a bagel I'll have a homosexual preference today!

But lots of people I've known have only "discovered" their sexuality later in life even after being in fully loving male-female relationships for years. People also tend to experiment and homosexual relationships are more common than today in same-sex situations historically and so I'm pretty skeptical about any biological link beyond humans simply enjoying mutual sexual play.

Domela Nieuwenhuis
30th November 2012, 21:53
Can't we cure people of bigotry and the likes?

Ocean Seal
30th November 2012, 22:01
Can't we cure people of bigotry and the likes?
yes
we can
we must take the
stepping stones
to mount olympus

from hades

and alone
they will find
no solace in hatred

Danielle Ni Dhighe
1st December 2012, 02:00
Human sexuality is a complex issue. I don't believe there's one single cause for variations in sexual orientation, and there's more likely several factors at play, although I think genetic and biological factors are most likely the dominant ones.

Sentinel
1st December 2012, 03:43
To me this also states that 47% of the identical twins were not both gay. Now 53% is a very high figure, and I think it shows quite clearly that there is some sort of genetic tendency here, but there must be something else involved here. After all 100% of identical twins have the same eye colour, something which is completely genetically determined, as their siblings.

To me then what this suggests is that 'nurture' plays some role.

Devrim

I personally also think it's likely a mix of both nature and nurture, but that isn't the point. The 'unchangeable' part is. Once you are old enough to understand which sexual orientetion you have, you can't just change it through willpower. It's simply determined before that age - and once it is, it won't really change.

I personally had a damn hard time growing up as gay, got a lot of shit for it etc, and I really tried to be straight. I wanted to be like 'everyone else'. But it's impossible, one might be forced by ones environment into fooling themselves for a while - years even I guess - but it just won't happen.

And that's why this kind of thing (trying to 'cure' people from being gay etc) is as traumatising and humiliating for those involved as it is.

Yazman
1st December 2012, 09:38
I thought you were from India and I didn't know that there are so many far-right Christian protestants running around India trying to cure people of their belief in evolution and gayness and such. :rolleyes:

Oh yeah, because nobody ever knows anything about what goes on in countries outside of their own, especially not internationalist revolutionary leftists who see the situation throughout the world as important.

Just because he's in India it doesn't mean his entire scope of knowledge is restricted to stuff that happens in India.

Besides, this is ignoring the fact that there are tens of millions of christians in India anyway. There are certainly missionaries there.

Beeth
1st December 2012, 12:23
Unfortunately, yes. Centuries of ignorance and reactionary religious condemnations take their toll.

This is the problem with dogmatism, whether religious or secular - it wants to force people into a specific framework, no compromises. Marxists do that too, and are in no way different from religious folks.

Domela Nieuwenhuis
1st December 2012, 12:58
Why would it matter what the cause is. You are so you are. Everyone else can accept it or fuck off!

Yazman
1st December 2012, 13:27
Why would it matter what the cause is. You are so you are. Everyone else can accept it or fuck off!

Yeah. I always think this. I don't see how it really matters from a socio-political standpoint how it's relevant as to whether people are gay by choice or not. Scientifically, of course, it's interesting to study but socio-politically I think it is completely irrelevant.

People shouldn't be discriminated against for who they have sex with. Whether it's choice or not shouldn't even enter the discussion. We shouldn't be trying to control where, how, and with whom people have sex.

Luís Henrique
4th December 2012, 11:44
To me then what this suggests is that 'nurture' plays some role.

Yup. And let's not forget that the "nurture" of twins is by far more similar than the nurture of non-twins.

Lus Henrique

Luís Henrique
4th December 2012, 11:45
most heterosexuals are really bisexuals in denial

If so, why wouldn't most homosexuals also be bisexuals in denial?

Lus Henrique

Domela Nieuwenhuis
4th December 2012, 19:06
So then...aren't just all people bisexuals in denial?

Yazman
6th December 2012, 09:41
My suggestion is that we quit deciding for other people what their sexual orientation is. If somebody says they're hetero/homo/bisexual, then so be it.

Domela Nieuwenhuis
6th December 2012, 23:04
My suggestion is that we quit deciding for other people what their sexual orientation is. If somebody says they're hetero/homo/bisexual, then so be it.

Some argue that paedophilia is a sexual orientation...am i wrong to differ?

Yuppie Grinder
6th December 2012, 23:06
As a bisexual, I disagree. No one has the right to tell anyone else what their sexual orientation is.

I agree.
"That line that everyone's bisexual, I think that's just meaningless. You can't pretend to be gay." - Lou Reed.

Yuppie Grinder
6th December 2012, 23:08
Some argue that paedophilia is a sexual orientation...am i wrong to differ?

Oh god.
Yes, it is a distinct sexual preference. It also one well worth suppressing, as it is inherently sadistic, abusive, exploitative, and dehumanizing.

Yazman
7th December 2012, 07:36
Some argue that paedophilia is a sexual orientation...am i wrong to differ?

Why does there always have to be a person that brings up pedophiles? Pedophilia has nothing to do with what was being discussed. It's irrelevant, especially given I specifically said: "If somebody says they're hetero/homo/bisexual, then so be it."

I didn't say "If somebody says they're necro/zoo/pedo/homo/hetero/bisexual", did I?

Domela Nieuwenhuis
9th December 2012, 10:09
Why does there always have to be a person that brings up pedophiles? Pedophilia has nothing to do with what was being discussed. It's irrelevant, especially given I specifically said: "If somebody says they're hetero/homo/bisexual, then so be it."

I didn't say "If somebody says they're necro/zoo/pedo/homo/hetero/bisexual", did I?

Sorry, 'bout that...the discussion derailed earlier when someone was trying to imply that i was something i'm not.

Hard to say if you're mad at me...your words say yes, your avatar says hi!

Yazman
9th December 2012, 14:58
I'm not mad at you lol. I was just wondering why you brought it up. It's kind of annoying because it seems there's uber-paranoia about pedophilia and it seems that "protect the children!!!!!!!!!" is used to justify basically anything these days. The Australian government used it to justify their (now abandoned) plan to build a Chinese-style internet censorship program, and an old prime minister even used it to justify the Afghanistan war (protecting Afghan children). So basically I get sick of pedophiles and "protecting the children" being brought up everywhere. Even revolutionary leftists seem to do it sometimes and it's kind of annoying, but I ain't mad at you it's cool :)

Leo
10th December 2012, 17:54
So then...aren't just all people bisexuals in denial? (...) Some argue that paedophilia is a sexual orientation...am i wrong to differ?

Oh god.
Yes, it is a distinct sexual preference. It also one well worth suppressing, as it is inherently sadistic, abusive, exploitative, and dehumanizing.

Pedophilia is not a sexual orientation. An orientation is not the same as a preference. A preference is liking blonds or brunettes, older or younger people and for certain twisted individuals, children. A preference can be suppressed, a preference can be changed and fundamentally, a preference can even be avoided entirely.

An orientation can't truly be suppressed, changed or avoided though. Saying pedophilia is an orientation instead of a preference means that it is as much a part of human nature - genetics - as being straight or gay is. However pedophilia goes against one of the most fundamental principles of all evolution - the protection of the young ones of the species.

And no, not everyone is a bisexual because, while these are effective simplifications, human sexuality is more complicated than these three labels. This is not to say that there aren't those who are fully homosexual or fully heterosexual, as well as bisexuals literally right in the middle, it is a matter of scale with as many if not more people closer to either side who simply identify as such. So basically it is a matter of scale, and where one would stand on this scale would depend on a combination of natural and environmental factors.

Aurora
10th December 2012, 22:10
I do believe that sexuality can change, of course you can't change it through willpower or the monstrous 'therapies' available but the conditions you live in continually shape the development of all sorts of attributes throughout life and i see no reason to think that sexuality is any different.

The argument that sexuality is genetic and that sexuality is fixed are both the same and are usually a pro-equality position which is a reaction to the homophobic position that homosexuality is wrong and must be changed or cured, the problem with this argument is that it fights only on the ground that is laid down by the homophobes and doesn't raise the demand for equality of LGBT unconditionally.
If you argue on this basis the more evidence there is of a development of sexuality the weaker your argument becomes.

Domela Nieuwenhuis
10th December 2012, 22:38
Pedophilia is not a sexual orientation. An orientation is not the same as a preference. A preference is liking blonds or brunettes, older or younger people and for certain twisted individuals, children. A preference can be suppressed, a preference can be changed and fundamentally, a preference can even be avoided entirely.

An orientation can't truly be suppressed, changed or avoided though. Saying pedophilia is an orientation instead of a preference means that it is as much a part of human nature - genetics - as being straight or gay is. However pedophilia goes against one of the most fundamental principles of all evolution - the protection of the young ones of the species.

And no, not everyone is a bisexual because, while these are effective simplifications, human sexuality is more complicated than these three labels. This is not to say that there aren't those who are fully homosexual or fully heterosexual, as well as bisexuals literally right in the middle, it is a matter of scale with as many if not more people closer to either side who simply identify as such. So basically it is a matter of scale, and where one would stand on this scale would depend on a combination of natural and environmental factors.

Anyways...i think pedophiles should be hung. Sorry if i offend someone, but so be it. I have two small children. If someone touches them "that way"...he'd wish wish he was never born, followed by a sensation of wanting to be killed for a while. It also involves excruciating pain...

Kenco Smooth
10th December 2012, 22:57
Pedophilia is not a sexual orientation. An orientation is not the same as a preference. A preference is liking blonds or brunettes, older or younger people and for certain twisted individuals, children. A preference can be suppressed, a preference can be changed and fundamentally, a preference can even be avoided entirely.

An orientation can't truly be suppressed, changed or avoided though. Saying pedophilia is an orientation instead of a preference means that it is as much a part of human nature - genetics - as being straight or gay is. However pedophilia goes against one of the most fundamental principles of all evolution - the protection of the young ones of the species.


I'm really not convinced that such a distinction can be maintained between preferences and orientation, surely they just differ in terms of extremity? Also not convinced that claims that paedophilia can be changed are borne out by evidence. If it were that simple solutions like chemical castration wouldn't be so commonly advocated.

There's also no reason that paedophilia would be selected against in evolution. Protection of the young of a species is not at all essential (infanticide amongst animals is the norm rather than exception) simply the protection of ones own near relatives, which is neatly taken care of by incest avoidance.