why is palestine solidarity so popular amongst students?

[ed miliband]

my friend is really involved in the palestine group at my uni so i hear a lot about it first hand; the moment israel started bombing gaza the society became really active: multiple meetings daily, protests, stunts, graffiti, etc. at the same time, various student related struggles were completely ignored.

i don't want to sound too flippant, because there are palestinian students involved and it isn't all white kids running around with keffiyehs, but i find the fetishism of palestine amongst students quite strange. that isn't to say that israel don't do terrible things, but it seems there is the assumption that israel is unique in doing terrible things, and all other struggles must pale in comparison to liberating palestine.

like, there was that shit a while ago when some american students were going on hunger strike for palestinian prisoners. just mental.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

I don't see how hunger striking is "mental"

And there is nothing wrong with solidarity with Palestine, except for the fact that the same solidarity is not extended to the Kurds, the Chechens, the Irish, and all other oppressed peoples of the world

[cynicles]

Wow! A hunger strike? Move over maoists! These Palestine student are so much more hardcore!

[ed miliband]

you nutters. american students with little to no connection to palestine decided to go on hunger strike, potentially putting their lives at risk to convince a state that was not and would not listen to them, and you think that shits sane? fucking hell.

[ed miliband]

http://libcom.org/blog/soapy-hunger-strike-08092012

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Being too radical is always better than being too moderate

[ed miliband]

Being too radical is always better than being too moderate

way to miss the point fella.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

way to miss the point fella.

No, I heard the point, she's "insane" for going on a hunger strike. So let me ask you something, what are you doing that is so much better than what she's doing?

[ed miliband]

No, I heard the point, she's "insane" for going on a hunger strike. So let me ask you something, what are you doing that is so much better than what she's doing?

hahaa, firstly not just "she", it was a whole group of male and females.

secondly i think doing nothing with regards to palestine is better than what they are doing. i can only involve myself in struggles that directly effect me, not impose myself on the struggles of others. hence the original post, hence you missing to point.

thirdly, FUCK the fetishism of "doing something"... http://libcom.org/blog/do-something-critique-activism-28052012

[Blake's Baby]

Trying to convince people that going on hunger strike over the situation in Palestine is insane, is approximately 250,000 times better than going on hunger strike over the situation in Palestine.

Anyway, to answer the OP... is it 'because deep down, almost everybody hates the Jews'?

[cynicles]

Trying to convince people that going on hunger strike over the situation in Palestine is insane, is approximately 250,000 times better than going on hunger strike over the situation in Palestine.

Anyway, to answer the OP... is it 'because deep down, almost everybody hates the Jews'?
Of course! That explains everything.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

FUCK the fetishism of "doing something"... http://libcom.org/blog/do-something-critique-activism-28052012

Actually, I will fuck the fetishism of doing something, I will fuck it long and hard all day long

[ed miliband]

Actually, I will fuck the fetishism of doing something, I will fuck it long and hard all day long

you'll get burned out soon mate.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Trying to convince people that going on hunger strike over the situation in Palestine is insane, is approximately 250,000 times better than going on hunger strike over the situation in Palestine.

Anyway, to answer the OP... is it 'because deep down, almost everybody hates the Jews'?

This critisism would be valid if there was some other major solidarity action taking place, and to a certain extent there are a few other solidarity actions taking place, but in the space of the far-left it's quite inadequate.

And this whole attitude amougst the left that we have to ridicule anything that isn't perfect is plain old elitist. This nonsense is just as stupid as the people who oppose the Independence movements of the world just because they weren't "Marxist" enough, even though they were popular movements that benefited real people, unlike your holier than thou theorizing that has benefited no one.

[Ostrinski]

We had some good discussion on this in a previous thread, I think one on the PFLP. I believe it was Leo who pointed out that there are other struggles of equally oppressed groups that go virtually ignored in the west, such as the Kurds in Turkey. I think it's kinda weird that this is the case and there's gotta be some reason for it. Maybe it's just aesthetic? The appeal of the romantic imagery, the rhetoric, etc. Or maybe it's just trendy? Perhaps it's the amateur activist types who feel like they're doing something good by getting behind a popular movement? Maybe it's the appeal of getting behind a popular movement. There's any number of reasons.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

We had some good discussion on this in a previous thread, I think one on the PFLP. I believe it was Leo who pointed out that there are other struggles of equally oppressed groups that go virtually ignored in the west, such as the Kurds in Turkey. I think it's kinda weird that this is the case and there's gotta be some reason for it. Maybe it's just aesthetic? The appeal of the romantic imagery, the rhetoric, etc. Or maybe it's just trendy? Perhaps it's the amateur activist types who feel like they're doing something good by getting behind a popular movement? Maybe it's the appeal of getting behind a popular movement. There's any number of reasons.

Yea, like I said before it's an awful shame that the left can't try to do something new. It's not like we should abandon the Palestinian struggle, its just that the world has other problems that we need to focus on as well

[Os Cangaceiros]

Here in the states, you'd be hard pressed to go to ANY rally over ANY pressing social issue that the left parasitically attaches itself to and not see at least on keffiyeh. ;)

[ed miliband]

Trying to convince people that going on hunger strike over the situation in Palestine is insane, is approximately 250,000 times better than going on hunger strike over the situation in Palestine.

Anyway, to answer the OP... is it 'because deep down, almost everybody hates the Jews'?

i can't tell if you're expecting this to be my punchline or something, if that makes sense.

but no, i'm not pushing some antideutsch shit here; i know my friend and the people he is involved with aren't anti-semitic. if i thought it was that simple i wouldn't have made this thread.

that said, i went on a solidarity march and encountered people whispering about a "jewish photographer" who was going to publish our photos and expose us -- he turned out to be a palestinian who gave quite a moving speech, but the conspiratorial paranoia was pretty mad. same protest a drunk polish man joined the march and fucking seig heil'd... wasn't kicked out or told to fuck off, despite being surrounded by big blokes. i'm just going to assume nobody saw.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Here in the states, you'd be hard pressed to go to ANY rally over ANY pressing social issue that the left parasitically attaches itself to and not see at least on keffiyeh. ;)

Yea, there is a problem of creativity on the left. Personally I think we ought to start our own campaigns instead of leaching off of others, that are actually relevant to real working people and that transcend sectarianism. A lot of people I know are suffering under the tyranny of landlords, and have been evicted by this criminal practice, why hasn't the left started a campaign to give these folk a good old fashion ass whooping?

[o well this is ok I guess]

Trying to convince people that going on hunger strike over the situation in Palestine is insane, is approximately 250,000 times better than going on hunger strike over the situation in Palestine. And probably that much harder.

[ed miliband]

And probably that much harder.

revol68 does a good job on the libcom thread

[hetz]

The issue of Palestine is ( was ) closely related to the question about the future of the Middle East as a whole, Pan-Arabism, anti-imperialism and so on. Isreal was and still is the main outpost of imperialism on the Middle East, so the struggle against the Israeli regime and for a Palestinian state was a truly international issue. Therefore it also received attention from the "Socialist block" and various communist parties in the West.

[ed miliband]

The issue of Palestine is ( was ) closely related to the question about the future of the Middle East as a whole, Pan-Arabism, anti-imperialism and so on. Isreal was and still is the main outpost of imperialism on the Middle East, so the struggle against the Israeli regime and for a Palestinian state was a truly international issue. Therefore it also received attention from the "Socialist block" and various communist parties in the West.

yeah but we're talking about now bro

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

And probably that much harder.

Really? Telling people to countuine doing nothing is harder than putting your well being on the line for the sake of the cause?

[ed miliband]

really? Telling people to countuine doing nothing is harder than putting your well being on the line for the sake of the cause?

do something do anything vote democrat or labour even might make a bit of change just do something

[hetz]

yeah but we're talking about now bro Sure, but the issue is still there. I guess pro-Palestinian activism has become some sort of a tradition on universities, with progressive movements etc.

[ed miliband]

Sure, but the issue is still there. I guess pro-Palestinian activism has become some sort of a tradition on universities, with progressive movements etc.

but why over and above issues that directly effect us as students?

for eg, last week soas went into occupation in solidarity with palestine, the day before the first big student march against debt, unemployment, etc. in two years. i'm not saying palestine should have been pushed out the window, but seems weird that issues that directly impact students were rejected in favour of issues we can only take abstract positions over.

[GoddessCleoLover]

I hope that the reason is to show solidarity with the just struggle of the Palestinian Arabs, but I fear that Blake's Baby's point is also valid.

[hetz]

I don't know really, but it's very indicative of the state and nature of student activism.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Any notions as to why THIS particular issue takes precedence over other issues, such as the economic crisis?

[ed miliband]

i wrote an article about anti-semitism recently that i only linked to hatzel; was quite specific, but he responded quite amazingly and "orientalism" played into his response quite a bit.

i've definitely encountered that with my mate; suddenly a massive fan of middle eastern food, music from the region, etc.

[The Jay]

Any notions as to why THIS particular issue takes precedence over other issues, such as the economic crisis?

The ideological hegemony over the traditional college student holds that the financial crisis can be solved through traditional means and that things are, however slightly, being done or that some are being obstructionist to that end. This gives them a sense that something is being done or that all that is being done that can be done productively.

That, and the ones that aren't taken by that are either apathetic due to a lack of perceived viable alternatives or are in too much of a minority to have an effectively heard voice.

As to why the issue of Palestine is so vivid, I think it is because the actions of Israel are so blatantly against even the ideological hegemony of the bourgeois culture. The actions of Israel go against all the things that the average american is taught to value. There is some contradiction in the sense that they are also conditioned to support Israel and that the Bible is correct but that is why not every college student is against Israel.

I hope that made sense.

[GoddessCleoLover]

It makes a great deal of sense. Excellent post. Good to see a Revleft comrade who is familiar with Marxian analysis A.G.-style.

[The Jay]

It makes a great deal of sense. Excellent post. Good to see a Revleft comrade who is familiar with Marxian analysis A.G.-style.

Reading The German Ideology, or at least the relevant two sections was definitely worth it. I haven't read any Gramsci but I think that I would enjoy his work. From what lectures and other information that I could gather on his views I like him.

[GoddessCleoLover]

In his Prison Notebooks, Gramsci drew heavily upon The German Ideology. Gramsci is worth reading, although he used a fair amount of coded language in order to frustrate would-be censors, both of the Mussolini regime as well as the Comintern.

[hatzel]

he responded quite amazingly

Oh you :blushing: :wub:

[ed miliband]

two PMs! both of which i've been thinking over for the last two weeks, which says a lot (and also explains my lack of response...).

[Rafiq]

my friend is really involved in the palestine group at my uni so i hear a lot about it first hand; the moment israel started bombing gaza the society became really active: multiple meetings daily, protests, stunts, graffiti, etc. at the same time, various student related struggles were completely ignored.

i don't want to sound too flippant, because there are palestinian students involved and it isn't all white kids running around with keffiyehs, but i find the fetishism of palestine amongst students quite strange. that isn't to say that israel don't do terrible things, but it seems there is the assumption that israel is unique in doing terrible things, and all other struggles must pale in comparison to liberating palestine.

like, there was that shit a while ago when some american students were going on hunger strike for palestinian prisoners. just mental.

It's just an excuse to wear the extremely stylish keffyas :)

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[ed miliband]

they really aren't stylish tho

[The Jay]

It's just an excuse to wear the extremely stylish keffyas :)

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


I was wearing one because it is freakin cold here but that was a side benefit. I got into a conversation and made some headway with it as an icebreaker/excuse for the person to attack.

[Red Commissar]

We had some good discussion on this in a previous thread, I think one on the PFLP. I believe it was Leo who pointed out that there are other struggles of equally oppressed groups that go virtually ignored in the west, such as the Kurds in Turkey. I think it's kinda weird that this is the case and there's gotta be some reason for it. Maybe it's just aesthetic? The appeal of the romantic imagery, the rhetoric, etc. Or maybe it's just trendy? Perhaps it's the amateur activist types who feel like they're doing something good by getting behind a popular movement? Maybe it's the appeal of getting behind a popular movement. There's any number of reasons.

It's always been something I've wondered about too regarding how the Palestinian issue manages to get a lot of sympathy while other similar causes are largely consigned to the wayside. I mean you brought up the Kurdish case, and this reminds me for example of the hunger strike and associated protests that played out there with little to no coverage in western media. Or the long case of arrests before then, the cross-border bombings, the bombing that killed some 30 or so villagers at once, and general history of repression especially before 2000.

Is it an image problem like the Tibetan issue here, where Kurds were seen as an avenue for the US (or "West") to act through, particularly after the Iraq War? Or is it a case of recognition- ex media coverage, activist groups getting the message out there?

That being said, in my neck of the woods there isn't a good college scene for Palestinian activism anyways. Mostly from two angles- the ever popular "Judeo-Christian" solidarity and some nonsense, or the dumb bit about how Israel is more "progressive" and the only democracy in the Middle-East. I remember the Arab youth group on my campus tried to put some things up for Palestinian recognition which were taken down after a day because of complaints about its "politicized" nature. If you haven't guessed my university was very sterilized when it came to politics, or at least inconvenient ones.

[Rafiq]

they really aren't stylish tho

Have you SEEN the villian from cod4???

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Os Cangaceiros]

Have you SEEN the villian from cod4???

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

Imran Zakhaev?

[Rafiq]

Imran Zakhaev?

Nah the guy with sunglasses

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[ed miliband]

dont play computer games

[Os Cangaceiros]

Nah the guy with sunglasses

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

Oh yeah, "al-Asad". Haha. Yeah, that fictional video game character did have style, he had the whole national liberation Bonapartist thing goin' on. If that scenario in COD happened in real life, you know there'd be a ton of anti-imperialists on this website ridding al-Asad's jock. Been a while since I played that game, as I don't have a gaming console. :(

[Flying Purple People Eater]

thirdly, FUCK the fetishism of "doing something"... http://libcom.org/blog/do-something-critique-activism-28052012
I've read this before and agreed with it, but now I honestly doubt the credibility of points made in this article. One point that stands the idea of an 'alienated activist', which sounds like something that applies to a distinct minority of active leftists. 'Activism' can be applied to many, largely separate methods of actively trying to achieve a specific goal (a clearly progressive action, as opposed to the alternative of doing nothing to promote something that relies on education, unsurprisingly). Dismissing the entire idea because of some Che-fetishists is completely ridiculous.

[Althusser]

i can only involve myself in struggles that directly effect me

wut?

[o well this is ok I guess]

Oh yeah, "al-Asad". Haha. Yeah, that fictional video game character did have style, he had the whole national liberation Bonapartist thing goin' on. If that scenario in COD happened in real life, you know there'd be a ton of anti-imperialists on this website ridding al-Asad's jock. Been a while since I played that game, as I don't have a gaming console. :( And plenty would be riding the cock of Makarov and the other guy you shoot in the face, cuz they straight up brought back the Soviet Union.

[Beeth]

my friend is really involved in the palestine group at my uni so i hear a lot about it first hand; the moment israel started bombing gaza the society became really active: multiple meetings daily, protests, stunts, graffiti, etc. at the same time, various student related struggles were completely ignored.

i don't want to sound too flippant, because there are palestinian students involved and it isn't all white kids running around with keffiyehs, but i find the fetishism of palestine amongst students quite strange. that isn't to say that israel don't do terrible things, but it seems there is the assumption that israel is unique in doing terrible things, and all other struggles must pale in comparison to liberating palestine.

like, there was that shit a while ago when some american students were going on hunger strike for palestinian prisoners. just mental.

This has nothing to do with political convictions. It is about people getting into activism because they're bored. Boredom and a sense of emptiness could make us do weird things, if only to see some meaning in our lives.

[Ocean Seal]

Are you really asking the question, or are you trying to make us justify why solidarity with Palestine is important. Also condemning a hunger strike? That's pretty low of you. Solidarity actions take courage, and its not like you can actually die from a hunger strike if you have people loyal to you, who will give you food when you pass out. There was a hunger strike, that's a good thing, that's a great thing. Solidarity actions don't have immediate consequences. It won't end Israeli apartheid, but there are very few actions which the left currently does, that actually have immediate consequences. What kind of politics are you interested in? What do you want people to do? What do you want them to care about, and how should they care about it?

Now why is Palestine popular? Because its contested. I doubt that you will find a big group of Turkish nationalists in America or Britain who have done a good job of convincing the media that the massacre of the Kurds was a good them or in self-defense. I have to wake up to terrorist Palestinians throughly harm children by launching rockets in their general area, Israel uses self-defense and only kills 160 people (all of which were terrorists or human shields being used by terrorists). And I have to listen to everyone parrot that very same news on my facebook feed. Doesn't it tear you up, that a people who have been victimized for 60 years also have to listen they are the agressor? Can't you at least respect protest to that? You are contesting a hegemonic opinion, which has been changing in the last twenty years because of the dedication of the Palestine movement. Don't you appreciate the little ray of hope from the west that extends itself to the Palestinian people.


You can do something about the way that Palestine is seen. Just like Vietnam. What is happening to the Kurds is certainly horrible, but solidarity actions in the west aren't going to do much about their treatment.

[Avanti]

jerusalem

is

the holy city

most children

in western countries

get invested

in it

as a mystical focal point

through our culture

being seeped

with remains

from older cultures

also

the struggle

expresses

the struggle

of the future

between the glitz (tel aviv)

and the slum (gaza)

soon

we'll all be palestinians

or israelis

saying that

it's stupid to over-focus

congratulations

to palestine

for almost

being recognised

as a "real state"

the best thing

would be

to not have

a state

everything

is possible

when you are

stateless

[GoddessCleoLover]

Avanti, I am genuinely perplexed as to why you see statelessness as beneficial to Palestinians. Have you been to the camps?:confused:

[Avanti]

i was born

n one of the

refugee camps

rashidieh, lebanon

those who

are stateless

will inherit

the world

because

the rest of mankind

are transformed

into cattle

[GoddessCleoLover]

From your moth to God's ear, Avanti.

[Ocean Seal]

This thread is utterly depressing. What happened to revleft. What happened to the left? There was a time when articles like "Do Something" would have just died down rather than becoming cult classics. There was a time when people set out to defend other people's strikes, or protest the war, burn draft cards, take in the sick and struggling. What happened to solidarity? Solidarity is about suffering because you have empathy. What happened really? I think I'm just going to start posting in poetry like avanti because I've just stopped taking this forum seriously.

[ed miliband]

This thread is utterly depressing. What happened to revleft. What happened to the left? There was a time when articles like "Do Something" would have just died down rather than becoming cult classics. There was a time when people set out to defend other people's strikes, or protest the war, burn draft cards, take in the sick and struggling. What happened to solidarity? Solidarity is about suffering because you have empathy. What happened really? I think I'm just going to start posting in poetry like avanti because I've just stopped taking this forum seriously.

oh how my pour heart aches

[Ocean Seal]

oh how my pour heart aches
He has grown weary
From decades of hard struggle
His heart aches all day

[black magick hustla]

This thread is utterly depressing. What happened to revleft. What happened to the left? There was a time when articles like "Do Something" would have just died down rather than becoming cult classics. There was a time when people set out to defend other people's strikes, or protest the war, burn draft cards, take in the sick and struggling. What happened to solidarity? Solidarity is about suffering because you have empathy. What happened really? I think I'm just going to start posting in poetry like avanti because I've just stopped taking this forum seriously.

idk would rather have a reasonable, self conscious cynic as opposed to perky, annoyingly bubbly, and embarrassingly naive professional activists

[Jimmie Higgins]

my friend is really involved in the palestine group at my uni so i hear a lot about it first hand; the moment israel started bombing gaza the society became really active: multiple meetings daily, protests, stunts, graffiti, etc. at the same time, various student related struggles were completely ignored.

i don't want to sound too flippant, because there are palestinian students involved and it isn't all white kids running around with keffiyehs, but i find the fetishism of palestine amongst students quite strange. that isn't to say that israel don't do terrible things, but it seems there is the assumption that israel is unique in doing terrible things, and all other struggles must pale in comparison to liberating palestine.

like, there was that shit a while ago when some american students were going on hunger strike for palestinian prisoners. just mental.

I'm not sure where you are from, but in the US to say that this viewpoint is "fashionable" is a bit disconected.

Anti-cut protests here have been much more instantly bigger than any Palistinian solidarity protest, even at it's height before 9/11. Additionally, I'd guess that the only person counterposing a Palistinian rally and an anti-austerity rally is you. If a protest was scheduled a day before another demo - well that tends to sometimes happen in my experience and sometimes people plan things before something else pops up - and considering that it wasn't on the same day, I'm not sure what your issue is with that prarticular point.

The other criticisms were mostly based on some sort of knee-jerk responce to a percieved romanticization of Palistine (which does exist, but it's more of a side-effect rather than the basis for it - were bandanas and masks what attracted people to Zapatista solidarity, South African Black cultrue for Anti-Apartheid movements? So let's drop the NY Times OP-ED style: "Well if only these occupy protesters weren't so hippy in their appearence..."

As to what do these actions matter? For Palistinians, not much beyond moral support, so there's not that much that can be done by average workers induvidually. But does this mean it's not important?

Well first, while "enemy of my enemy" is not a very good political perspective, but it should raise some alarms when the US forign policy is heavily focused on and favoring something: Israel, Colombia, a particular faction in one of the North African uprisings etc.

But does it affect workers in the US and worker's struggle. In my view, yes. For one thing, the propaganda around Palistinian "fanaticism" and "unreasonableness" and "barbarity" is tied to a larger demonization of people in the region and their "inability to create 'civilized' democratic societies". So plain racism on the one hand and pro-zionist sentiment help create some popular support for US imperialism in the middle east and circularly justified US involvement in the region. This helps tie some of the population ideologically to the actions of US imperialism, so it does have an impact on working class consiousness: it's a contradiction to think that the US ruling class can make "order" in Israel/Palistine but then is illegitimate in making "order" in its home society. So unlike some other struggles, Israel has been a sort of key-stone for US imperialism and that's why, for workers in the US at least, it is an important issue.

As for the "do something" argument. Well yes, just "doing something" doesn't mean much. Planting a tree for Palistine on your block doesn't do much. But I think your argument is a straw-man. If people are doing things "to make a moral statement" then this is bad strategy, if they sincerely think they can lobby US government to change imperial aims, then yes this is mistaken and doomed to fail. But if people are trying to organize a solidarity movement, if they are creating ways for people to oppose US policy and imperialism, then "doing something" is doing something. Further, in the US many universities have contracts with Israel and US defense - a anti-war movement of students could potentially use this as a weak-point and force their colleges to drop the programs like student movements of the 60s/70s did. This would then either directly give people skills to also attack the administration on cuts and tuition hikes, or could set an example for other student protesters.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Solidarity protests are ok but as you say, Ed, this sort of first-world (sorry soundin like a third worldist slippery slope), relatively wealthy white-kid fetishism for action on either legitimate struggles not directly related to them (i.e. Palestine) or on some obscure issue (Kony, anyone?) is really quite problematic. It is an implicit validation of third-worldism, in that our struggles our such that we can just put them on the back-burner if we're busy with the more pressing struggles in countries that some people have never visited or know little about outside of some sectional propaganda they've heard.

[Thirsty Crow]

This thread is utterly depressing. What happened to revleft. What happened to the left? There was a time when articles like "Do Something" would have just died down rather than becoming cult classics. There was a time when people set out to defend other people's strikes, or protest the war, burn draft cards, take in the sick and struggling. What happened to solidarity? Solidarity is about suffering because you have empathy. What happened really? I think I'm just going to start posting in poetry like avanti because I've just stopped taking this forum seriously.
Some people engaged on a hunger strike while totally disconnected from the conflicts which constituded the immediate context and really had no shot whatsoever at producing any kind of effect - probably apart from the effect on their self-reflection as radicals. This is the definition of action for actions sake, or in other words, a meaningless stunt.

Is this a condemnation or a clear understanding of what was going on? Is solidarity antithetical to criticism?

[Flying Purple People Eater]

idk would rather have a reasonable, self conscious cynic as opposed to perky, annoyingly bubbly, and embarrassingly naive professional activists
You mean potential leftists?

Yeah, I can see why a political movement based on mass-worker organisation isn't going to work when the majority of adherents now are elitists.

"Annoying bubbly naive activists" - what a better way to put someone off leftism by calling them a soft stupid irrelevancy! Go back to your cave, gramps!

[Rugged Collectivist]

you nutters. american students with little to no connection to palestine decided to go on hunger strike, potentially putting their lives at risk to convince a state that was not and would not listen to them, and you think that shits sane? fucking hell.

So... If you were a Spanish leftist in the late thirties, would you have told the international brigades to fuck off?

I'm not comparing some dumb students going on a hunger strike to the international brigades. And I understand that there's little American students can do. And I understand that if there's nothing you can do then you probably shouldn't do anything at all. But the idea that anyone not directly involved in a struggle shouldn't participate seems counter-intuitive. I remember when some guy said that only Greeks should be concerned with the situation in Greece and everyone (rightly) denounced him.

[Blake's Baby]

So... If you were a Spanish leftist in the late thirties, would you have told the international brigades to fuck off?

I'm not comparing some dumb students going on a hunger strike to the international brigades...

Really, you just did.

What was the point of the question, if not to link the two experiences? Now, I'm not a big fan of the International Brigades, Stalinist organisations for the defence of the Republic and the foreign policy aims of the Soviet Union as they were, but to equate going on hunger strike in an American university to going out to Spain to fight the fascists is ludocrous. Yes, if our hunger strikers had actually gone out and joined Hamas instead, you might have a point.


...And I understand that there's little American students can do. And I understand that if there's nothing you can do then you probably shouldn't do anything at all...

These aren't the same you know. there may be 'little' that people outside can do, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's 'nothing' they can do, and even if it did mean there was 'nothing' they could do, that doesn't mean the same as 'doing anything (like going on hunger strike) is just as good as doing (or not doing) anything else'.


... But the idea that anyone not directly involved in a struggle shouldn't participate seems counter-intuitive. I remember when some guy said that only Greeks should be concerned with the situation in Greece and everyone (rightly) denounced him.

And the connection is...?

I think bmh is quite right that we should be aware of what we can and can't do. Going on hunger strike is pointless. Working out what can be done might be a start. It's not about 'anyone not involved in the struggle' being ineligible to take part, it's about being aware of what's possible where you are. Is there any conceivable way that someone going on hunger strike in solidarity with the Palestinians in Gaza can actually materially help the people of Gaza? Not really.

It's Israel, obviously, that's been responsible for the biggest (massively the biggest) number of deaths. It's Israel that's going to have to stop doing that to have a large impact on the casualty figures. The Palestinians can't do much about it (they can 'not die' but I suspect if you asked most of the population in Gaza they'd already be pretty keen on that). But if anti-war activists in Israel can even begin to disrupt the Israeli war machine, that would be a good thing would it not? Now, is there any conceivable way that someone going on hunger strike in solidarity with the Palestinians in Gaza can help anti-war activists in Israel? Not really.

So the whole thing seems a bit of a waste of time and effort that could be better spent trying to find some way to support activists in Israel.

[bcbm]

And I understand that there's little American students can do.

this isn't really true its just that what they could do would require a lot more work than staging a phony hunger strike. the divestment campaign, for example.

[Nox]

Because it's "cool" to support Palestine and people are trying to outdo each other.

They don't care about other atrocities across the world because they only care about what they see in the media.

[Rugged Collectivist]

Really, you just did.

What was the point of the question, if not to link the two experiences? Now, I'm not a big fan of the International Brigades, Stalinist organisations for the defence of the Republic and the foreign policy aims of the Soviet Union as they were, but to equate going on hunger strike in an American university to going out to Spain to fight the fascists is ludocrous. Yes, if our hunger strikers had actually gone out and joined Hamas instead, you might have a point.

I wasn't trying to compare the civil war to a hunger strike. I admitted that the hunger strike was really, really stupid. I was using the brigades as an example of a time when foreign intervention necessary and justified.

I won't get into an argument about the civil war. I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject.


And the connection is...?

I think bmh is quite right that we should be aware of what we can and can't do. Going on hunger strike is pointless. Working out what can be done might be a start.

I completely agree.


It's not about 'anyone not involved in the struggle' being ineligible to take part

See, but I thought that was what this was about. If that isn't the case then I have nothing more to say.

[Blake's Baby]

OK, I think we're hacking through the confusions here.

My take is that, if you want to oppose Israeli aggression, there are things you can do (not necessarily very effective practical things, because we don't have any leaverage with the Israeli military) and the most useful of these would be supporting however you can internationalists in Israel - that's pretty much the total of it. Almost anything else is either pointless or harmful, I reckon.

[bricolage]

hmmm yeah I remember before a lot of the palestinian stuff was about getting universities to disinvest from arms companies (specifically ones that sell arms to israel), which was especially relevant in some places where BAE or whatever fund entire engineering departments so part of your studying has to be related to the production of military aircraft or whatever. anyway there are obvious limitations to this but it seems a lot more practical (and also relevant to collective self-interest) than general, abstract pleas to stop the killing or establish a palestinian state... especially when these pleas turn into things as offensive as a bunch of american students going on hunger strike.