Your Immediate Demands?

[JPSartre12]

Comrades, after being here on Revleft for a while, the biggest thing that I've noticed and am taking away from it is that there are far more tendencies than I ever could have conceptualized, and how specific and minute the difference is between them on certain aspects of Left theory. Marxist, Leninist, Marxist-Leninist, Maoist, Anti-Revisionist, Reformist, Pan-Leftist, Luxembourgist, Democratic Socialist, etc etc ....

It amazes me. So, my question to you is this - if you had the opportunity to be your country's president (or prime minister, chancellor, premier, etc what have you), what sort of policies would you enact? What would you do to try and bring about a better condition for the working class and promote socialism? How would your political tendency influence your decision on that policy/policies?

Here's some of what I would do (in the United States):
Enact single-payer healthcare, gender-neutral and plural marriages, legalize drugs, promote worker co-operatives and worker-owned enterprises, support labor unions, fund a free and pro-socialist education system, tax the rich and the corporations, end the wars and close foreign military bases, promote "green" energy, and cut the majority of the Defense budget and direct it towards anti-poverty programs.

Some sort of "U.S. Labor Council" that would act as a national federation of all kinds of unions and could introduce/promote pro-labor legislation would be interesting, too, perhaps.

I know that these policies won't actually bring about a socialist mode of production, but I'd like to think that they'd be able to set the foundation for the beginning of a more class-conscious proletariat.

Your thoughts? Just curious :lol:

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Sorry, I am anarchist, I cannot be president.:)

[JPSartre12]

Sorry, I am anarchist, I cannot be president.:)

Haha good come back :tt2:

[The Idler]

1. Abolish the wages system is my immediate demand.

for Marx exploitation is in the very nature of capitalism, integral to its relations of production on which the distribution of income largely depends. His preoccupation is with this more fundamental issue of the production relations and the need for a thoroughgoing revolution in them. As important as they are, reforms in the matter of wage levels simply cannot lead to the abolition of exploitation. So, Marx chides the authors of the Gotha Programme with having made a fuss about ‘so-called distribution’. The distribution of ‘the means of consumption’ cannot be treated independently of the mode of production.” So too, in Wages, Price and Profit, he speaks of ‘that false and superficial radicalism that accepts premisses and tries to evade conclusions’, and he goes on: ‘To clamour for equal or even equitable retribution on the basis of the wages system is the same as to clamour for freedom on the basis of the slavery system. What you think just or equitable is out of the question. The question is: What is necessary and unavoidable with a given system of production?’ Later in the same work Marx proclaims, ‘Instead of the conservative motto, “A fair day’s wage for a fair day’s work!” they [the workers — N.G.] ought to inscribe on their banner the revolutionary watchword, “Abolition of the wages system!” ‘

[Tenka]

Blow up congress! Then nationalise everything, rewrite the constitution, institute soviets, ban beards, and abolish the position of President of the United Socialist States of America.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Smash the bourgeois state, don't blow up Congress but turn it into a Workers' Congress, set up workers' councils empowered to expropriate the bib bourgeoisie, and whatever else it takes to replace the current social and economic system with working class rule. Destruction of the reigning cultural hegemony must also be a first priority, workers' councils should be created to control the mass media and other transmission belts of bourgeois. Banning beards? I hope that was posted in jest. If not, keep chanting EN-VER HOX-HA, EN-VER HOX-HA until your urge to ban beards passes.;)

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

Force everyone to wear ski masks because it would look cool.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

OP: your 'US Labour Council' sounds like a fuckin' nightmare (don't take this personally, strictly political). You cannot merely 'enact'. That is ideology, and ideology is ahistorical. Marxism views history through the prism of historical materialism - shifting systems/modes of production, through development and revolution. This whole 'President for a day' nonsense is pointless, i'm fairly sure we'd all enact some sort of 'utopia' if we could do that, but it's a pointless exercise.

And if I did have to be President for a day, i'd abolish myself. Way to make a lasting impact that nobody could (easily) revoke ;)

[Ravachol]

Full communism, with lulz as a transitional demand.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

By abolish myself, I mean my post, not my life.

[ComradeOfJoplin]

ban beards

Why ban beards they make my face warm & awesome. :)

I would abolish the pillars that keep the 2 party system in place in the USA and restructure elections in a parliamentary style.

[Zukunftsmusik]

I would abolish the pillars that keep the 2 party system in place in the USA and restructure elections in a parliamentary style.

How revolutionary of you.

I would abolish myself too. Then maybe go for a walk in the woods, grab a coffee, something like that.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Step 1. Cut all of Canada's ties with the monarchy.
Step 2. Abolish capitalism.
Step 3. ???
Step 4. No profit!

[Ocean Seal]

If I ran for President and became President because of troll purposes, what could I do? I don't think I could abolish wages, or the military. In fact there isn't really much I can do. Taking this question seriously, I think I would have to come up with a way to harass the bourgeoisie. Who decides the imminent domain stuff? I'd probably take all of the empty homes and fill them with people and I would liberate about 90% of the prisoners. That's probably the most that one man in a position of reactionary power can contribute to the revolution.

[ВАЛТЕР]

My immediate demands? "Drop them Nikes of your ass before I blast you capitalist pig-dog!"


jk


If I became president, I would be a corporate whore and would be the most corrupt politician imaginable. You could literally pay me to show up at birthday parties.

Sorry guys, class interests change. ;)

[Avanti]

abolishment of the armed forces

legalization of squatting

legalization of all drugs

legalization of theft

establishment of

community militias

direct democratic

neighborhood councils

all factories

should be made

into worker cooperatives

all banks

should go

to the neighborhoods

abolishment

of fractional

reserve banking

[GerrardWinstanley]

Well, I'm no impossibilist so I may aswell make helpful suggestions. Nothing set in stone.

A 100% tax on earnings of more than £100,000, introduce price controls and tariffs on imports and exports, the arrest and prosecution of financial criminals from the investment banks and war criminals and a super tax to raise all the money stored in tax havens as government revenue, the unilateral nationalisation of the banks, public transport, hydrocarbons, utilities, further education, university tuition, privatised segments of the NHS and private academies, the abolition of the monarchy and state religion replacing it with an officially secular republic (in more the French sense than American), nuclear disarmament, the closing down of jobcentres, work capability assessments and work programmes, raising welfare, the repeal of ALL immigration controls, massive cuts on the police and armed forces, roll back government surveillance, restrict custodial sentencing to violent crime, serious harassment and massive fraud/theft, repeal all laws and extradition agreements that detain suspects without trial, radical industrial reform to improve working conditions enable unions to easily negotiate wages and protect employees, lower the retirement age to 55 (or maybe less), a ban on fascist parties and a crackdown on incitement to racial hatred, homophobia and attacks on the disabled in the media (may involve improving existing legislation or take the form of government initiatives).

[helot]

I'd either be removed from office within a day or two or i'll defend the bourgeoisie. To even suggest you could work towards socialism in such a context is nonsense.

[Q]

Any communist minimum programme should aim for working class rule. That means, overturning the state apparatus, crippling the functioning of capital and, where possible, instate social planning based on human need.

But, as mentioned before, communism will not happen overnight. It takes time before we can fully overcome class society. So, as a start I'd aim for the following (not an exhaustive list btw):

- Declare the Democratic Republic of Europe (just the Netherlands would be a sad scenario). Abolish any monarchies, presidents (yes, lastly my own post) and other 'democratic' autocrats.
- Abolish the army, police, judiciary, secret services and other armed departments of the state.
- Abolish any state secrets, ban business secrets, ban 'intellectual property', open all books of business administration.
- Instate a peoples militia and decree universal education in the use of arms.
- Socialise key sectors of society, put them under social control. Healthcare, education, public transport and other basic services are to be provided directly on a "as needed" basis, free of charge.
- Nationalise all companies threatening mass redundancies.
- Abolish financial sector. Socialise the land.
- As a start, reduce working week to 30 hours (5 days, 6 hours) or 32 hours (4 days, 8 hours).
- Abolition of overtime in its present form. In the case of emergencies and other such eventualities overtime must be voluntary, for only short periods and with at least double pay.
- Make democratic control universal. Subsidiarity (or 'home rule') as the starting point: What can be controlled at a local level, should be controlled at a local level.
- Revert any and all anti-trade union legislation.
- Demarchic democratic representatives from party-pools, lotteries to be held frequently (at least once a year).
- Ensure cultural equality, self-determination. Esperanto as universal European second language. Own dialect/language as primary language.
- Ensure universal and unrestricted internet access. Freedom of information.
- Aim towards a CO2-less society.
- Aim for universal housing. All housing to be available at token renting prices.
- Separation of church and state. Abolish the Vatican. Nationalise all church property that is not directly used for religious practices.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Why ban beards they make my face warm & awesome. :)

I would abolish the pillars that keep the 2 party system in place in the USA and restructure elections in a parliamentary style.

What makes you think parliamentarianism makes a difference? And why would you do that?

Most of Europe have de-facto two-party systems in place.

[sixdollarchampagne]

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but no revolutionary could ever be elected to high office; I am sure there is an awful lot of sifting and vetting that takes place, in order to prevent real or fundamental change from ever being enacted. Even if the masses chose a decent person to lead them, there are plenty of checks and balances built into the existing system to ensure that the rich and powerful will always get their way. I suspect that the electoral college system, in fact, every detail of the system, exists to prevent change. That is one reason the whole system has to be overthrown; according to Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, there can be no such thing as socialist reconstruction without the prior complete destruction of the bourgeois state, and that prerequisite is gonna demand a lot of effort, a heck of a lot of convincing people.

Oh, and I'm totally against the banning of beards; my white beard gets me an occasional senior discount, even though I'm only 64.

[Q]

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but no revolutionary could ever be elected to high office; I am sure there is an awful lot of sifting and vetting that takes place, in order to prevent real or fundamental change from ever being enacted. Even if the masses chose a decent person to lead them, there are plenty of checks and balances built into the existing system to ensure that the rich and powerful will still and always get their way. The whole system has to be overthrown; according to Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, there can be no such thing as socialist reconstruction without the complete destruction of the bourgeois state, and that prerequisite is gonna demand a lot of effort, a heck of a lot of convincing people.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

The real question, as I see it, is: What is your immediate programme? What do you aim to do directly when the working class seizes power.

The 'president' thing is just a metaphorical device to concretise the question, perhaps in a somewhat unfortunate way.

[JPSartre12]

The real question, as I see it, is: What is your immediate programme? What do you aim to do directly when the working class seizes power.

The 'president' thing is just a metaphorical device to concretise the question, perhaps in a somewhat unfortunate way.

Exactly ^

By the way, I love your demands ;)

[sixdollarchampagne]

Thank you Captain Obvious.

That the entire bourgeois state has to be smashed is not obvious to everyone; that is shown by the continuing euphoria in big sectors of the "left" over bourgeois politician Chávez, who is making a "revolution," according to leftists like the IMT Grantists, who have not ceased talking about the Venezuelan "revolution" for years, even though 14 years of Chávez in power has left the bourgeois state completely unscathed.

And, as is well known, nearly the entire US "left" was completely gaga over pro-war multi-millionaire Obama in 2008. As demonstrated in every election year, there are lots of illusions out there, lots of leftists who eagerly pull the lever for the "lesser" evil. Where I live, faith in liberal politicians is the predominant illusion.

[Q]

That the entire bourgeois state has to smashed is not obvious to everyone; that is shown by the continuing euphoria in big sectors of the "left" over bourgeois politician Chávez, who is making a "revolution," according to leftists like the IMT Grantists, who have not ceased talking about the Venezuelan "revolution" for years, even though 14 years of Chávez in power (I think) has left the bourgeois state completely unscathed.

And, as is well known, nearly the entire US "left" was completely gaga over pro-war multi-millionaire Obama in 2008. As demonstrated in every election year, there are lots of illusions out there, lots of leftists who eagerly pull the lever for the "lesser" evil. In the country where I live, faith in liberal politicians is the predominant illusion.

A fair point then. But simply stating that we need to overthrow the state is not enough. You need to also tell what you want to replace it with. And that was the topic of this thread.

[Yuppie Grinder]

"For us there is no minimal and no maximal program; socialism is one and the same thing: this is the minimum we have to realize today". - Luxemburg.

[Q]

"For us there is no minimal and no maximal program; socialism is one and the same thing: this is the minimum we have to realize today". - Luxemburg.

Ultraleft posturing to just use that quote. When she said it in 1918 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1918/12/31.htm), it was more understandable, given what was on the agenda. But her explicit tossing away of Erfurt was a big mistake given how later generations would see it.

[CryingWolf]

If you're gonna be President, you have to remember that you're only the president. Congress will not simply accept whatever you throw at them.

The place to start is in the cabinet. The immediate goal is to seriously disrupt bourgeois control of the state, and to re-work the organs of the executive bureaucracy into a gigantic network for politicized working-class organization. Especially focusing on the departments of the State, Defense, Treasury, Justice, and Labor.

I have 4 years until I have to face re-election. In that time, we would have to organize well enough to form a worker's party within the Democratic Party by being successful in its primaries (not that that would be particularly hard to do). Once we gain control of all or most of the Democratic Party, we would have to win a majority in both houses of Congress, presumably within only 2 or 4 years.

Even if I am not re-elected, which is likely, the organization provided by the executive bureaucracy could simply be copied and a permanent working-class organization could be sustained. With this, the time-limit could be overcome.

If we could gain control of congress, the next step would be to focus on electoral reform for local elections. This would be necessary because we will have to gain control of a lot of state legislatures in order to amend the constitution.

Amending the constitution so that the election system favors third-parties would reduce the organizational burden on the nascent worker's party as well as gain complete independence from the Democrats.

The end result would be an America with an organized and politicized worker's party and a significantly weakened bourgeoisie.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Two words: "year zero" :cool::closedeyes:

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I'd make the demand for brand gaming consoles to be continued in organised fashion after the revolution, just so we don't get a massive influx of shitty console devices that are incompatible with each other.

Any attempt to defy this law will mean instant death or gulag.

[Yuppie Grinder]

I'd make the demand for brand gaming consoles to be continued in organised fashion after the revolution, just so we don't get a massive influx of shitty console devices that are incompatible with each other.

Any attempt to defy this law will mean instant death or gulag.

Really I'd just want them to start making games for N64 and PS1 again.

[Let's Get Free]

GEWEyya5_54

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Any communist minimum programme should aim for working class rule. That means, overturning the state apparatus, crippling the functioning of capital and, where possible, instate social planning based on human need.

But, as mentioned before, communism will not happen overnight. It takes time before we can fully overcome class society. So, as a start I'd aim for the following (not an exhaustive list btw):

- Declare the Democratic Republic of Europe (just the Netherlands would be a sad scenario). Abolish any monarchies, presidents (yes, lastly my own post) and other 'democratic' autocrats.
- Abolish the army, police, judiciary, secret services and other armed departments of the state.
- Abolish any state secrets, ban business secrets, ban 'intellectual property', open all books of business administration.
- Instate a peoples militia and decree universal education in the use of arms.
- Socialise key sectors of society, put them under social control. Healthcare, education, public transport and other basic services are to be provided directly on a "as needed" basis, free of charge.
- Nationalise all companies threatening mass redundancies.
- Abolish financial sector. Socialise the land.
- As a start, reduce working week to 30 hours (5 days, 6 hours) or 32 hours (4 days, 8 hours).
- Abolition of overtime in its present form. In the case of emergencies and other such eventualities overtime must be voluntary, for only short periods and with at least double pay.
- Make democratic control universal. Subsidiarity (or 'home rule') as the starting point: What can be controlled at a local level, should be controlled at a local level.
- Revert any and all anti-trade union legislation.
- Demarchic democratic representatives from party-pools, lotteries to be held frequently (at least once a year).
- Ensure cultural equality, self-determination. Esperanto as universal European second language. Own dialect/language as primary language.
- Ensure universal and unrestricted internet access. Freedom of information.
- Aim towards a CO2-less society.
- Aim for universal housing. All housing to be available at token renting prices.
- Separation of church and state. Abolish the Vatican. Nationalise all church property that is not directly used for religious practices.

It strikes me that you're quite keen on 'abolishing', 'ensuring', 'reverting' and 'making' your way to democracy. I think the key point to mention about a Socialist democracy is that the democratic element (in terms of proletarian class rule) is far more important than the ideological policy character of that society (of course with some exceptions, but they will come with education and agitation within the class).

I personally would rather an imperfect society based on genuinely bottom-up proletarian rule, than a society where pre-planned, programmatic policies are forced into action on behalf of the proletariat. As evidence, I cite the USSR and 20th century 'Socialism'.

[Q]

It strikes me that you're quite keen on 'abolishing', 'ensuring', 'reverting' and 'making' your way to democracy. I think the key point to mention about a Socialist democracy is that the democratic element (in terms of proletarian class rule) is far more important than the ideological policy character of that society (of course with some exceptions, but they will come with education and agitation within the class).
That has somewhat to do with the form the OP was asked in which I was hypothetically thrusted into the position of enlightened president of Europe ;) I agree that this form is problematic, but that was beside the point of the OP.


I personally would rather an imperfect society based on genuinely bottom-up proletarian rule, than a society where pre-planned, programmatic policies are forced into action on behalf of the proletariat. As evidence, I cite the USSR and 20th century 'Socialism'.
If anything, the early USSR was an ad hoc amalgamation of imperfect policies designed for survival.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Abolish the army, police, judiciary, secret services and other armed departments of the state.

Comrade, I don't think "abolish" is the right word. Something implying wholesale turnover is more appropriate than something implying elimination without institutional replacement. Union rights for soldiers in the armed forces while retaining hierarchy and installing deputy officers for political work (zampolit) is crucial. The "judiciary" should be separated in two, one for constitutional affairs and the other for typical criminal and civil cases, the former being politically accountable and both spheres being presided by commoner juries. Workers' polities also need "Chekists."


Separation of church and state. Abolish the Vatican. Nationalise all church property that is not directly used for religious practices.

Participation in political affairs and not just "the state," ownership land holdings or art treasures, investment partnerships, aggressive sales of books and DVDs specific to denominational brands, and management of media infrastructure in a way that promotes inequality in access to and distribution of free speech should still be prohibited for all religious denominations.

[sixdollarchampagne]

Q originally posted:
Abolish the army, police, judiciary, secret services and other armed departments of the state. to which DNZ replied:


Comrade, I don't think "abolish" is the right word. Something implying wholesale turnover is more appropriate than something implying elimination without institutional replacement....

DNZ goes on to say that he wants the "retention of hierarchy" in the military, as well as keeping bourgeois courts.

See, I said that the need to smash the bourgeois state is not obvious to everyone, and DNZ, who wants the survival, at least, of the forms of bourgeois rule ("I don't think 'abolish' is the right word"), proves that.

[Ostrinski]

Nuclear disarmament will have to be pursued with care.

[Grenzer]

Comrades, after being here on Revleft for a while, the biggest thing that I've noticed and am taking away from it is that there are far more tendencies than I ever could have conceptualized, and how specific and minute the difference is between them on certain aspects of Left theory. Marxist, Leninist, Marxist-Leninist, Maoist, Anti-Revisionist, Reformist, Pan-Leftist, Luxembourgist, Democratic Socialist, etc etc ....

It amazes me. So, my question to you is this - if you had the opportunity to be your country's president (or prime minister, chancellor, premier, etc what have you), what sort of policies would you enact? What would you do to try and bring about a better condition for the working class and promote socialism? How would your political tendency influence your decision on that policy/policies?

Here's some of what I would do (in the United States):
Enact single-payer healthcare, gender-neutral and plural marriages, legalize drugs, promote worker co-operatives and worker-owned enterprises, support labor unions, fund a free and pro-socialist education system, tax the rich and the corporations, end the wars and close foreign military bases, promote "green" energy, and cut the majority of the Defense budget and direct it towards anti-poverty programs.

Some sort of "U.S. Labor Council" that would act as a national federation of all kinds of unions and could introduce/promote pro-labor legislation would be interesting, too, perhaps.

I know that these policies won't actually bring about a socialist mode of production, but I'd like to think that they'd be able to set the foundation for the beginning of a more class-conscious proletariat.

Your thoughts? Just curious :lol:

So basically, you'd be a typical left-liberal in the vein of the old German SPD. Unfortunately this doesn't do much since you can't reform your way to capitalism. Nationalization is useless and has no bearing to socialization. The only way you're going to make a concrete step forward is by the working class overthrowing the capitalist state and expropriating the capitalist class. This is impossible to do within the framework of the capitalist state.

If any one of us became President in the United States, we would do what was in the interests of Capital because the framework does not allow any other outcome. No one could come close to the position of president who wasn't thoroughly bourgeois.

I'd also like to talk about the fantasy scenario if an actual socialist could just magically become appointed head of state. The outcome would be much the same. Since the capitalist state is essentially a tool of the capitalist class, it cannot be utilized in ways that run counter to the fundamental purpose of working in the interests of the capitalist class, even if you tried to "reform" it.

You might as well start talking about what you would do if you could transform into a dragon or light people on fire spontaneously through force of will.

[CryingWolf]

If any one of us became President in the United States, we would do what was in the interests of Capital because the framework does not allow any other outcome. No one could come close to the position of president who wasn't thoroughly bourgeois.

I don't think this is necessarily true. Presidents act in the interests of Capital because either they are capitalists themselves or are closely linked to interests within Capital. Being the President alone is not a sufficient condition for acting in the interests of Capital.



I'd also like to talk about the fantasy scenario if an actual socialist could just magically become appointed head of state. The outcome would be much the same. Since the capitalist state is essentially a tool of the capitalist class, it cannot be utilized in ways that run counter to the fundamental purpose of working in the interests of the capitalist class, even if you tried to "reform" it.


I don't think anyone is seriously hoping to bring about revolution by hoping that a socialist would magically become president. Rather, this should be seen as an imaginative exercise that ignites discussion about revolutionary strategy.

There are specific mechanisms by which the capitalist class controls of the state. The state is not responsive to capitalist interests by magic. State officials have to know what these preferences are and they also have to have incentive to translate them into policy and action. If these mechanisms of control could be disrupted, it would indeed be possible to utilize the state in ways that run counter to the interests of capital. (I'm not saying that it would be easy or that the bourgeoisie wouldn't fight back, though)

[MarxSchmarx]

In addition to the litany of childhood bullies and unhelpful sales clerks that I will order round up to be sent to penal colonies, Swedish will be made the official language and all children under the age of sixteen will henceforth be sixteen.

But I think the question presupposes a mindset among the left that grabbing state power will make the vision be realized. There's an almost mystical quality to this, a "fairy-godmotherism" that neglects that orders must be carried out by millions and implemented by millions, within the context of existing material realities. The belief that any leftist can do so by decree is not a serious proposition; but so long as this kind of outlook is accepted in one way or another in earnest by some, it will remain a serious hinderance to the ability of the left to act effectively.

[GoddessCleoLover]

MarxSchmarx is making a serious point here. I believe that Uncle Karl addressed this very issue in the 18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon, the quote about Man not making history as he sees fit and the weight of the past upon the present generation.

[sixdollarchampagne]

... The only way you're going to make a concrete step forward is by the working class overthrowing the capitalist state and expropriating the capitalist class....

If any one of us became President in the United States, we would do what was in the interests of Capital because the framework does not allow any other outcome. No one could come close to the position of president who wasn't thoroughly bourgeois.

... if an actual socialist could just magically become appointed head of state. The outcome would be much the same. Since the capitalist state is essentially a tool of the capitalist class, it cannot be utilized in ways that run counter to the fundamental purpose of working in the interests of the capitalist class, even if you tried to "reform" it.

My comment: I wish I could write as well as Ghost Bebel. What GB says above is what Karl and Fred said in the Manifesto: The working class cannot simply lay hold of the bourgeois state and wield that state in the interests of the proletariat. That state has to be destroyed.

And denying that fundamental Marxist insight leads to the major illusion that backing this or that bourgeois pro-war plutocrat will improve things. It won't, and the fact that it won't needs to be repeated over and over, in response to the predominant illusion out there, among the masses.

[Die Neue Zeit]

DNZ goes on to say that he wants the "retention of hierarchy" in the military, as well as keeping bourgeois courts.

See, I said that the need to smash the bourgeois state is not obvious to everyone, and DNZ, who wants the survival, at least, of the forms of bourgeois rule ("I don't think 'abolish' is the right word"), proves that.

Well, if you're one of those Cliffites who claim the fSU with its standing army and court system was state-bourgeois or state-capitalist, I'll leave you to your opinion.

[Green Girl]

...Unfortunately this doesn't do much since you can't reform your way to capitalism...The only way you're going to make a concrete step forward is by the working class overthrowing the capitalist state and expropriating the capitalist class. This is impossible to do within the framework of the capitalist state.

If any one of us became President in the United States, we would do what was in the interests of Capital because the framework does not allow any other outcome. No one could come close to the position of president who wasn't thoroughly bourgeois.

I'd also like to talk about the fantasy scenario if an actual socialist could just magically become appointed head of state. The outcome would be much the same. Since the capitalist state is essentially a tool of the capitalist class, it cannot be utilized in ways that run counter to the fundamental purpose of working in the interests of the capitalist class, even if you tried to "reform" it.

So what would have happened if Jill Stein of the Green Party was elected President and she was able to talk congress into introducing bills to put in the socialist green agenda including removing corporate power from Washington D.C. and corporate personhood. Would the corporate elite have her executed? I've thought a lot about this and I think there would be a good chance the capitalists would have committed murder rather than give up part of their power.

[CryingWolf]

Mods delete this post I have no idea how it made it into this thread.

[Green Girl]

...Unfortunately this doesn't do much since you can't reform your way to capitalism...The only way you're going to make a concrete step forward is by the working class overthrowing the capitalist state and expropriating the capitalist class. This is impossible to do within the framework of the capitalist state.

If any one of us became President in the United States, we would do what was in the interests of Capital because the framework does not allow any other outcome. No one could come close to the position of president who wasn't thoroughly bourgeois.

I'd also like to talk about the fantasy scenario if an actual socialist could just magically become appointed head of state. The outcome would be much the same. Since the capitalist state is essentially a tool of the capitalist class, it cannot be utilized in ways that run counter to the fundamental purpose of working in the interests of the capitalist class, even if you tried to "reform" it.

So what would have happened if Jill Stein of the Green Party was elected President and she was able to talk congress into introducing bills to put in the socialist green agenda including removing corporate power from Washington D.C. and corporate personhood. Would the corporate elite have her executed? I've thought a lot about this and I think there would be a good chance the capitalists would have committed murder rather than give up their power.

[Green Girl]

..if you had the opportunity to be your country's president (or prime minister, chancellor, premier, etc what have you), what sort of policies would you enact? What would you do to try and bring about a better condition for the working class and promote socialism? How would your political tendency influence your decision on that policy/policies?

President won't do, however if I was Empress of America with absolute power:

I would end the use of money of any type, including Federal reserve notes.
I would close down the Federal Reserve System and its fractional banking.

I would tell my fellow citizens that we have evolved beyond the use of money and that all of our problems are caused by the existence of money and this fact has been hidden from them by the capitalists that manipulate and control our lives though the use of money.

The United States has a rich abundance of food, it is said that American soil is so rich there is more than enough to feed the entire world, however because of price supports and farm substitutes to big corporate farms food is either destroyed or not grown. This will end and all farmland will be utilized to grow food, with the surplus beyond what Americans can consumed to be shipped to countries experiencing food shortages.

The United States has considerable manufacturing capacity. most of it under utilized and boarded-up due to the capitalists closing down and moving labor to third world countries to grossly exploit their cheap labor. We have more than enough to supply all of life's necessities and even luxuries for the entire population.

Most crime committed is economic, now that any American can bring anything they desire into their home from the many new distribution centers that replace the old shopping centers, this removes most of the motives for crime.

I would give the owners and investors of capital the following choice:
1) work for their company in a useful capacity, for most of them that might just mean the first honest work they have ever done in their lives.
2) be executed as enemies of the state.

Some have said by doing away with money that workers would become lazy and would greedily take more than they can use or consume?

Some suggestions I have: perhaps award the top 10 producers of the shop, plant, mill, factory, warehouse and/or office with extra time off. This would increase productivity of everyone and would award the one thing everyone has to little of free time to enjoy alone or with family.

Once workers are accustomed to the idea that everyone can have, the same food, the same material things and everything else workers will start just taking what they want and need from the distribution centers.

We could go full steam ahead with automation and robots as their use would not cause workers to lose their jobs, instead worker/owners would gain more free time.

And everything the Green party wants with some slight changes: Instead of single-payer healthcare, it would be no-payer healthcare as there is no money. Gender-neutral and plural marriages, legalize drugs however like everything else they would be not require money, end the wars and close foreign military bases, promote green energy, and change our military to defensive only.:)