Do we live in a revolutionary period?

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I'm not sure what 'revolutionary period' really means, besides capitalist states developing as far as they can economically.

With the continuing aggravation of the current economic crisis, are we in/heading towards a potential period as mentioned above?

[Let's Get Free]

Yes, even more so than the 60s, whether we understand it or not, whether we are ready or not. This period is not the 1960's, a period of growth and economic sustainability. This period is one of economic collapse and scarcity, where the capitalist system is in contraction and more fierce class warfare is taking place: mass unemeployment and poverty, corporate control of the state and media, widespread police terror, and massive imprisonment of the poor and oppressed racial groups.

But then again, it seems like most people will simply protest on single issue campaigns and go home and forget about it. All the while their "Reforms" are slowly taken back by the capitalist class.

[GoddessCleoLover]

IMO we are not today in a revolutionary period, but hopefully it will come soon enough.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

IMO we are not today in a revolutionary period, but hopefully it will come soon enough.

Maybe your country is not, but mine surely is.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Good point, countries develop differently.

[theblackmask]

Maybe your country is not, but mine surely is.

I don't think it makes sense to look at things on the scale of a nation anymore. Rest assured that if things ever really did start to happen where you live, other countries would step in. It doesn't matter if things are crazy in your country, as long as there is some force in the rest of the world who has something to gain by stepping in and playing policeman, there will be no revolution.

[Rafiq]

Well, you'd have to be a bit more specific. A revolution is certainly not impending but conditions for a revolution are certainly existent (in terms of the development of the capitalist mode of production). There is potential for a form of revolutionary class consciousness to be achieved by proletarians today, of this there could be no doubt. However revolutionary class consciousness is not spontaneous. But in a sense I must disagree with Kautsky slightly. Class consciousness (or trade union consciousness) is certainly spontaneous and can not be achieved through help from a revolutionary vanguard. Once trade-union consciousness is achieved (And we can see that this is becoming quite the case) it is important for the revolutionary vanguard to seize the opportunity and allow proletarians to achieve the highest form of class consciousness.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

I don't think it makes sense to look at things on the scale of a nation anymore. Rest assured that if things ever really did start to happen where you live, other countries would step in. It doesn't matter if things are crazy in your country, as long as there is some force in the rest of the world who has something to gain by stepping in and playing policeman, there will be no revolution.

I agree to this to a point but it's important to realize that nations do develop differently. For example semi-feadul countries where the economy is so horrid that crisis represent a bad situation turning worse instead of an interruption of a period of stability, it's possible to start a guerrilla movement at any time since most people in the third world are well aware of how horrible their conditions are (see the reception of the 23 movement in the Congo, even though they are a bunch of worthless warlords). But in the first world you can't just go guns ablazing since alot of people will confuse you for gangsters, and this isn't without reason since during a time of prosperity they won't understand the need for revolution. Likewise in the first world the crisis doesn't affect each country equally so in some areas it might be a revolutionary situation and in other areas it might just be a minor hiccup.

[Ocean Seal]

Every period is a revolutionary period. That must be understood by every single leftist.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Yes, even more so than the 60s, whether we understand it or not, whether we are ready or not. This period is not the 1960's, a period of growth and economic sustainability. This period is one of economic collapse and scarcity, where the capitalist system is in contraction and more fierce class warfare is taking place: mass unemeployment and poverty, corporate control of the state and media, widespread police terror, and massive imprisonment of the poor and oppressed racial groups.

But then again, it seems like most people will simply protest on single issue campaigns and go home and forget about it. All the while their "Reforms" are slowly taken back by the capitalist class.

The 60's were a period of profound political consciousness. Today, being "political" is having an opinion on something...

So, I would say that: no, we are not in a "revolutionary period". Things are a lot better now in the west than ten or even five years ago. Now the question of inequality is a non-taboo and socially accepted subject. The thing missing now is first off are vehicles of populist politics that can help politicize society.

However, I believe we are about to enter a "rebelutionary period" in as far as western Capitalism is going to enter a massive crisis in the next few years, as we see starting in Spain, Portugal and Greece. This however does not mean revolutionary change. Whether the coming period of economic/social crisis is turned into a revolutionary period, is up to the communist left's organization as in its tactical fight on the political, activist and ideological front.

[Psy]

So, I would say that: no, we are not in a "revolutionary period". Things are a lot better now in the west than ten or even five years ago. Now the question of inequality is a non-taboo and socially accepted subject. The thing missing now is first off are vehicles of populist politics that can help politicize society.


From a economic standpoint things are much worse, the rate of profit never rebounded back to its peak during the long boom and now the capitalist class sees the stagnation of the 1970 as the good old days as the rate of profit is now much much worse and the golden years of the long boom now a faded memory.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

From a economic standpoint things are much worse, the rate of profit never rebounded back to its peak during the long boom and now the capitalist class sees the stagnation of the 1970 as the good old days as the rate of profit is now much much worse and the golden years of the long boom now a faded memory.

Yes, but look at Greece. KKE is now half as big as it was 2 years ago and the Fascists are the third biggest party now. In Portugal, the crisis has turned people towards the left and not the right. It all depends on the organization, line of a party and its public tactics as to how a crisis will end up, Blackshirts or Reds.

[Blake's Baby]

No we don't live in a revolutionary period, I'd hazard not even in Portugal, but we do live in a period with the potential to develop into a revolutionary period.

I'm gonna get all deep-time on y'all, and a bit contra l'Enferme, and say we live in 'revolutionary epoch' but not a revolutionary period. Like the warm bits between the cold bits during the Ice Ages. Long term trend is wars and revolutions as capitalism goes through its convulsive destructions of the planet, short term trend is the working class can't acheive a revolutionary consciousness (though I hope we're all working to change that).

[GoddessCleoLover]

Yes, but look at Greece. KKE is now half as big as it was 2 years ago and the Fascists are the third biggest party now. In Portugal, the crisis has turned people towards the left and not the right. It all depends on the organization, line of a party and its public tactics as to how a crisis will end up, Blackshirts or Reds.

KKE has lost its support to SYRIZA, I believe, while the Golden Dawn has gained at the expense of the traditional Greek right. KKE has been sectarian and missed opportunities, but IMO they are not responsible for the rise of the Golden Dawn. That honor belongs to Angela Merkel and a host of other factors.

[Q]

Every period is a revolutionary period. That must be understood by every single leftist.

That simply results in meaningless phraseology.

A revolutionary period, proper, is when:


1) The great mass of the people must be decisively hostile to a regime.
2) There must be a great organized party in irreconcilable opposition to such a regime.
3) This party must represent the interests of the great majority of the population and possess their confidence.
4) Confidence in the ruling regime, both in its power and in its stability, must have been destroyed by its own tools, by the bureaucracy and the army.

Elements of these can be found throughout history and throughout the world. The point is that they must come together and in most if not all contemporary situation we lack a mass party-movement fighting for socialism through the revolutionary emancipation of the working class.

[Psy]

Yes, but look at Greece. KKE is now half as big as it was 2 years ago and the Fascists are the third biggest party now. In Portugal, the crisis has turned people towards the left and not the right. It all depends on the organization, line of a party and its public tactics as to how a crisis will end up, Blackshirts or Reds.
The problem is even even though the ruling class wants to stay the course they can't due to markets around the world flooding due to a massive crisis of over production that no one in the ruling class knows how to deal with.

The fascists getting in power won't solve anything, as the markets are so flooded that even if they could get workers to work for nothing there would still be a crisis of over production as the problem is workers are not able to consume enough thus more and more commodities become unsold.

[Questionable]

I'd say the period we're living in resembles pre-WWI era closer than anything.

[TheOther]

Hi, dear friend: Unfortunately, you are 100% correct about the *single issue* comment you made. And even about the anti-marxism attitudes of many members of the Occupy Wall Street different movements of the nation. I was banned from many, many, many Occupy Wall Street Facebook groups for suggesting the Occupy Wall Street Members to go to http://www.marxists.org and study Marxism, because a marxist government is the only real deal and solution for USA. But many of the Occupy Wall Street Movement members are in favor of a Norway Welfare regulated reformist capitalist system with a Robin Hood utilitarian tax system, and free colleges, and free health care for the poor which is real good and I would like a system like that in USA right now, because it is a lot better than Neoliberal type of capitalism. However I think that a dictatorship of the workers (socialism) is a lot better and a more extreme solution for USA than the Robin Hood Norway Capitalist system that the Green Party, the Socialist Party of USA, Rosanne Barr, Cindy Sheehan and many many other pro-Norway reformist Robin Hood capitalist system with a human face are proposing as a solution for USA

SO HAVING SAID ALL THIS, YOU ARE RIGHT, FOR SOME PSYCHOLOGIC, SOCIOLOGICAL REASON I CAN'T EXPLAIN RIGHT NOW, MANY AMERICANS ARE STILL NOT READY TO FILE A DIVORCE WITH CAPITALISM AND TO UNCONDITIONALLY WELCOME 100% SOCIALISM (A DICTATORSHIP OF THE WORKERS) FOR AMERICA !!


But then again, it seems like most people will simply protest on single issue campaigns and go home and forget about it. All the while their "Reforms" are slowly taken back by the capitalist class.

[TheOther]

Another problem I forgot to mention, that maybe it might be cause of what you said here about *coming together into a super big socialist front*, might be the excess of group-narcissism that exists in the whole country. In which people try to find escapes and solutions to their economic and mental problems either thru religion groups, thru libertarian parties, others outside of politics, like working extra-hours, getting into e-bay and side-businesses at home. Others thru black market activities like prostitution, illegal work, etc. others thru conspiracy theories news websites. Others thru reformist social-democrat centrist mainstream progressive centrist leftists such as The Green Party, The Socialist Party of USA, Rosane Barr. Others a very tiny minority of USA are looking for a solution thru 100% socialism like this website revleft, and the other few marxist groups. Others thru The Republican Party, other workers thru The Democratic Party. And many others thru many other ways. And many others thru self-help personal investments. Americans who still believe in the capitalist system and believe in the lie and trap of "investing" in stocks, bonds, mutual funds, real estate, apartments houses etc.

So the excess of different ways of finding a solution for the economic and psychologic problems of most people is another impediment to see a super big marxist front in America which would be able to gather all the poor of the country and rise to the White House either thru an election, or thru popular rebellion, backed by the lower ranks of the US military supporting that marxist front


That simply results in meaningless phraseology.

A revolutionary period, proper, is when:



Elements of these can be found throughout history and throughout the world. The point is that they must come together and in most if not all contemporary situation we lack a mass party-movement fighting for socialism through the revolutionary emancipation of the working class.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Capitalism has entered into a period of crisis and more overt class struggle but we are not in a revolutionary period. We are at the best time in my life at least for the prospects of begining to rebuild a radical working class movement that is organically rooted in working class struggle.

There are some places with very explosive dynamics, such as Greece, but really the question of power isn't really clear. The revolutionary dynamics are still in play in parts of North Africa, but workers in these revolutions did not play an independant role. But situations can develop rapidly and a revolution in one place really could cause leaps and bounds in working class consiousness worldwide as people no longer simply wonder if Capitalism is sustainable but wonder if workers, rather than capitalists should run society.

[TheOther]

i was thinking about something related to an article written by the writter James Petras who said that in economic crisis, if people resort to socialism as a solution for their lack of money, they will be able to feel a lot better and less stressed than families who don't know that the cause of their economic hell in this earth is the capitalist system. And not knowing the real causes of extreme turmoil, like people being billed to death and being taxed to death like the majority of americans are, leads to family violence, irritability and an array of personality disorders and psychologic problems




Capitalism has entered into a period of crisis and more overt class struggle but we are not in a revolutionary period. We are at the best time in my life at least for the prospects of begining to rebuild a radical working class movement that is organically rooted in working class struggle.

There are some places with very explosive dynamics, such as Greece, but really the question of power isn't really clear. The revolutionary dynamics are still in play in parts of North Africa, but workers in these revolutions did not play an independant role. But situations can develop rapidly and a revolution in one place really could cause leaps and bounds in working class consiousness worldwide as people no longer simply wonder if Capitalism is sustainable but wonder if workers, rather than capitalists should run society.

[Rafiq]

TheOther/TrotskiMarx: Please no

[Psy]

I'd say the period we're living in resembles pre-WWI era closer than anything.
It worse as back in WWI workers never experienced the high living standards industrial capitalism was temporary able achieve. Capitalism is now a victim of its own success as it means capitalism lives under its own shadow of what it was able to achieve during the long boom and now can't.

[TheOther]

Intolerance for the opinions of other leftists, hatred toward other leftists, sectarianism, group-narcissism, egocentrism= Democratic Party and Republican Party always in The White House. Poverty, depression and a hell on earth. We need the whole left of the USA to unite instead of attacking each other my friend. Or if you hate other leftists because they are not a clone of your own specific ideology, try to overthrow the US capitalist government by yourself like Bradley Manning, Joe Stack and other lone-rangers. And look where they ended up.

The people united, will never be defeated. No division within the left please !!


TheOther/TrotskiMarx: Please no

[Ostrinski]

Hello friend , I agree. What we don't need is a Trotskist revolution from below of Hal Draper .

.


Intolerance for the opinions of other leftists, hatred toward other leftists, sectarianism, group-narcissism, egocentrism= Democratic Party and Republican Party always in The White House. Poverty, depression and a hell on earth. We need the whole left of the USA to unite instead of attacking each other my friend. Or if you hate other leftists because they are not a clone of your own specific ideology, try to overthrow the US capitalist government by yourself like Bradley Manning, Joe Stack and other lone-rangers. And look where they ended up.

The people united, will never be defeated. No division within the left please !!

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Don't you get it? It's what the Maya's were referring to as "the end of the cycle".
It's the end of the world as we know it! (by REM)

The 21st of december will be our time!!!!

[Comrade Jandar]

No, we're not. I was born into capitalism and will die under capitalism. Hopefully in between that time I can do my part to chisel away at it.

[Comrade #138672]

Maybe in the Middle East, but I think that even there, it will take some time. In Europe and the US we start to see more and more discontent caused by austerity measures imposed by the ruling class, but it's not enough. Sure, there are revolutionary momenta, but it's not strong enough.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

No, we're not. I was born into capitalism and will die under capitalism. Hopefully in between that time I can do my part to chisel away at it.
Well that's dumb. If that's the case then we may as well drop leftism completely.

I'm not going to take time out of both my an my sympathetic friends' already shit lives if there's never going to be any benefit from doing so. I'm not going to 'chip away' at capitalism because that doesn't bloody work. I've been devoting myself to causes and raising awareness, and if it's all worthless because the economic conditions (would be nice if this were more specific) weren't suitable for change, then I may as well become apolitical and dwell a shit life for the rest of my own.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Well that's dumb. If that's the case then we may as well drop leftism completely.

I'm not going to take time out of both my an my sympathetic friends' already shit lives if there's never going to be any benefit from doing so. I'm not going to 'chip away' at capitalism because that doesn't bloody work. I've been devoting myself to causes and raising awareness, and if it's all worthless because the economic conditions (would be nice if this were more specific) weren't suitable for change, then I may as well become apolitical and dwell a shit life for the rest of my own.

So what are you going to do!?