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View Full Version : Introspection is not a scientific source of knowledge



Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
23rd November 2012, 18:46
In this piece I discuss the science of the conscience and unconscious mind and why it proves the libertarian thesis to be invalid. A slightly better version can be found on my blog here:http://aroundthepear.blogspot.com/2012/11/introspection-is-not-valid-source-of.html

Now the whole philosophical basis of libertarianism is built on the idea of personal responsibility. However those of us who believe that the Law of Causality applies to human beings insofar that humans are material things that exist within the physical universe and can not be seen as exceptions to the fundamental laws that regulate everything else that exists within this material universe, or those of us who don't believe in the freedom of the will, retort that since the actions of the individual are merely the result of external influences upon him and to hold him as solely responsible for his actions abdicates society from it's essential obligations. Yet even if you convince that the concept of free will is absurd, that the idea of "self ownership" is therefore nothing more than metaphysical and ultimately false, they can still retort that logically speaking, the individual is more aware of his subjective interests than any other body, and that therefore he ought to pursue these interests uninfringed since from a logical point of view, if we assume that everyone has a perfect understanding of oneself than it would appear that the most efficient method of maximizing public happiness would be to simply "let be" and allow individuals to pursue their interests unchecked.

But of course, this premise depends on the idea that individuals have a perfect knowledge of themselves, and much like how Smith's capitalism fails because it assumes that all actors have perfect knowledge of a good's actual market value, it fails because humans do not have a perfect knowledge of themselves and are actually quite incapable of understanding themselves. In fact, the debate over whether we can all just sit down and "think" about who we are as individuals and determine an objective conclusion from this process has been long debunked by science and has no business being extended into the realm of political philosophy.

In it's early days psychology had to tackle a very difficult question in order to be accepted as a science; how can we understand the mind's relation to human behavior if we can't observe thought? In 1892 a student of the renown experimental psychologist William Wundt by the name of Edward Bradford Titchener attempted to solve this problem through an approach called structuralism. Titchener proposed that through a process called introspection, the essential structure of the brain could be discovered by asking people to report on sensations such as the smell of roses, and then by asking them how they thought these sensations were related and eventually how these sensations were related to how they felt about these sensations and how these feelings interacted to create emotions.

However when Titchener's theory was tested different people reported associating sensations differently, thus dispelling any hope for introspection being a possible method of experimental psychology. It was also discovered that when asked to predict what our emotional response would be to an event, out answer almost always contradicted our actual response to said event. Additionally, since we all have a separate consciences from our peers, we have a natural tendency to assume that we are unique from other people simply because we are unable to observe the cognitive process in others which led us to assume that we are essentially different from everyone else because as individuals we are the only ones who we can observe a thought process in. Due to this assumption of difference we have a tendency to assume that we are exceptional or are apart of a category that is exceptional This is why (among other reasons) as a species we have a tendency to form judgement based on categorical superiority. "Look at all of those poor people, they're so lazy, I, as a member of the middle class have earned my position by being the exception to this laziness". This idea of exceptionalism is what allows us to create false categorical assessments without any actual understanding of the people around us. It helps us to hold those immediate surrounding us in contempt for the sole purpose of feeling like that special unique individual that your kindergarten teacher spent so much time telling you that you are.


And I bet every one there thinks that the people surrounding them belongs to the opposite political party


But it goes further then that. Like coffee? Do you prefer Bach or Handel? What sex position is your favorite? How about your kinks, what are they? Please, list your favorite songs. Now, please explain to me what influenced your tastes.

Pictured above, something about himself that Titchener couldn't be understood through introspection

Notice how you can't really come up with a good answer for those questions. Even though some of you might be able to offer an answer, none of these answers actually explain why you like certain things but only why you think you like certain things. This is because the complex series of associations needed to create your desires and tastes take place in your unconscious mind and not you conscience mind. You do not merely wake up one day and decide that Third Wave Ska is better than Metal, your mind makes this decision for you. What you are actually doing when you are trying to tell me what you like is trying to explain why you think you like something, you didn't actually decide that you like something but rather your unconscious mind made you like something and your conscience mind is trying to make sense of a decision making process that it has no part in making. It's like how Christian philosophers don't sit down and imagine there is a god using reason, they simply were raised with the concept of a god and try to defend this concept using reason without asking why am I defending my god and where did my god come from?

And interestingly enough our conscience mind gets in the way more than it helps. For example, when many people who thought they suffered from disorders were later informed that they didn't have these disorders actually became depressed instead of happy because their conscious mind created a self concept (or identity for those of us who aren't familiar with that term) of ourselves based on this perceived inferiority, and when this self-concept is smashed we lose our mind's flawed and flimsy understanding of it's self thus causing us to feel a certain level of disappointment and uncertainty. Simarily depressives tend to form identities for themselves that are based on their suffering and they then tend to go further into depression because this identity offers them a comfort zone based on a flawed understanding of themselves that they are afraid of escaping even though that escape would end their suffering.

The point being is that you, as an individual, do not possess any capability of understanding yourself and should therefore concede to the idea that a scientific attempt at understanding who you are is a much more valid form of investigation. Similarly you ought to understand that yes, other people can know more about you than you do and that therefore you should not dogmatically reject attempts to regulate your life based on the faulty premise that you are the only one who should be doing that, when if fact you are absolutely incompetent at regulating your own life. Instead you ought to engage individual regulations on a factual basis of their merit rather than an idealistic rejection of them due to some perceived "rights" that you possess that are divorced from time and space and exist only in the plain of your stupid, stupid, little mind.

-Sylvia.W.Esposito

TheRedAnarchist23
23rd November 2012, 18:59
Is this about determinism again?

"you, as an individual, do not possess any capability of understanding yourself"

I disagree. Why would I not be able to understand why I act a certain way through reflection?
Reflection is my main form of trying to understand things, it is from where most of my knowledge comes from. I learned anarchism from the books, but I only read in total 1 and a half anarchist books, the rest i got through reflection.

ÑóẊîöʼn
23rd November 2012, 19:11
I think the mistake being made here is the assumption that imperfect self-knowledge is the same as no self-knowledge at all. People may not know enough about themselves in order to make optimal decisions, but that does not necessarily eliminate the possibility that the best person to make decisions about one is... oneself.

Then there is the question of context, what one might call "environmental" factors. When people make decisions that are not in their own self-interest, are they doing so because they are inherently incapable of doing otherwise, or are they doing so because they have been unduly influenced by external factors? How do we know that in the absence of those factors that person would not have been more likely to make a better decision?

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
23rd November 2012, 19:14
Is this about determinism again?

"you, as an individual, do not possess any capability of understanding yourself"

I disagree. Why would I not be able to understand why I act a certain way through reflection?
Reflection is my main form of trying to understand things, it is from where most of my knowledge comes from. I learned anarchism from the books, but I only read in total 1 and a half anarchist books, the rest i got through reflection.

Reflection isn't entirely invalid, it's just that taking individualism as the logical conclusion of the ability to reflect is invalid for reasons that I discussed in the piece. This is because while we are able to think about things external to us, when we try to think about ourselves we are bias and incapable of coming to a perfect conclusion. This lack of perfection is why we can not idealistically uphold individual choice as the only pure conclusion. instead we ought to look at where introspection is valid and where it is not based on material facts, not on idealism.

Os Cangaceiros
23rd November 2012, 19:57
The point being is that you, as an individual, do not possess any capability of understanding yourself and should therefore concede to the idea that a scientific attempt at understanding who you are is a much more valid form of investigation. Similarly you ought to understand that yes, other people can know more about you than you do and that therefore you should not dogmatically reject attempts to regulate your life based on the faulty premise that you are the only one who should be doing that, when if fact you are absolutely incompetent at regulating your own life. Instead you ought to engage individual regulations on a factual basis of their merit rather than an idealistic rejection of them due to some perceived "rights" that you possess that are divorced from time and space and exist only in the plain of your stupid, stupid, little mind.

Is this supposed to be satire or something?

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
23rd November 2012, 20:22
I think the mistake being made here is the assumption that imperfect self-knowledge is the same as no self-knowledge at all.

I'm not saying that imperfect self-knowledge is no knowledge, I am simply refuting the "common sense" argument of libertarianism that the self is the best person for interpreting one's own conscience when in fact it isn't.

ÑóẊîöʼn
23rd November 2012, 22:18
I'm not saying that imperfect self-knowledge is no knowledge, I am simply refuting the "common sense" argument of libertarianism that the self is the best person for interpreting one's own conscience when in fact it isn't.

I think a better way of doing that would be demonstrate how in a libertarian framework, people can consistently act against their own interests in certain important circumstances.

For example, food safety enforcement. A hypothetical libertarian could argue that companies that do not voluntarily adhere to safety standards would go out of business. However, since in a libertarian framework there will still be people in the position of either taking a risk (buying cheaper but potentially unsafe food) or instead going hungry by buying a smaller amount of food produced by a company with better standards, who are likely to pass the cost of that to the consumer making the food more expensive. In this scenario, both "choices" on offer are not in one's self-interest, being deleterious either way. How can "common sense" help decide whether to risk food poisoning or face certain malnourishment? "Get a better paying job" does not deal with the immediate situation, leaving aside the question of whether that is even possible in the circumstances.

zoot_allures
23rd November 2012, 22:33
I'm not saying that imperfect self-knowledge is no knowledge, I am simply refuting the "common sense" argument of libertarianism that the self is the best person for interpreting one's own conscience when in fact it isn't.
Firstly, you do draw some very radical and in my opinion absurd conclusions in the OP. For example: "you, as an individual, do not possess any capability of understanding yourself". This certainly seems to suggest that you're concluding "no knowledge" rather than just "imperfect knowledge".

More importantly, what you've established is that in some cases other people might know you better than you do. From this alone we can't conclude anything about what the overall best way of interpreting one's own mind is.

And is science a "much more valid form of investigation"? I don't agree that science and introspection are mutually exclusive. It seems to me quite obvious that in trying to understand the mind, we're going to need to use introspective reports. (You won't find anyone more skeptical of introspection than Dan Dennett, but even he makes it a fundamental part of the research method - see his "heterophenomenology".)

Incidentally, I think I can come up with a good answer to all those questions you asked. I think my answers would perhaps be better and more informative than what a purely "scientific" (in your sense) account could give. I'd be interested to hear your view of how a good "scientific" investigation might go about answering those questions.

MarxSchmarx
29th November 2012, 06:41
YABM - no offence, but if you read David Hume he deals quite deftly with all of the issues you raise. and more generally, this thread seems better suited to philosophy than science.

Ocean Seal
5th December 2012, 07:02
I don't think this is the appropriate counter to lolbertarians. Things like we have no free will, have no bearing on how we should conduct society. The appropriate response is that personal responsibility is stupid moralism, and doesn't help us achieve more.

TheCat'sHat
5th December 2012, 07:14
[QUOTE=Yet_Another_Boring_Marxis;2538125]In this piece I discuss the science of the conscience and unconscious mind and why it proves the libertarian thesis to be invalid. A slightly better version can be found on my blog here:


I feel like there is a problem of reflexivity. If people have no capacity to understand themselves then why are you writing an article to try to get them to understand this very important fact about themselves?