A different world?

[Terminal Frost]

Any of you guys finding it harder since Sept 11th. I'm getting a lot of s**t from people who are generalising all of those people who are against Capitolism.

Just cause I wear a Che T-shirt and a RATM cap**, I'm a "terrorist bastard". There are some very strong pro-US feelings around now, and all the Commie's I know, esp. the politically active ones, are getting a lot of s**t.
I know it's just dumb-ass people who don't know what they're talking about, but I was wondering if any of you guys have had similar stuff?

(BTW: I am completely against the Sept. 11th attacks, the loss of innocent life was sickening and completely against my views.)

**I'm no "casual commie" :cool:

[RedCeltic]

(BTW: I am completely against the Sept. 11th attacks, the loss of innocent life was sickening and completely against my views.)

As one who lives in NY... and saw the buldings fall from 20 miles away... the only thing expressed from me that day was extreme horror.

I have to constantly express to people that while I am strongly in support of social change, I am not in support of terrorist acts in order to bring it about.

While the vast majority of people here in New York wave their flags about... and support america's imperialist war... we are still vocal, and well continue to be so.

In fact I was at yet another anti-war rally just today at a local community college.

[Capitalist]

Che Guevara was anti-American, anti-capitalistic, and anti-imperialistic. He would have been very happy with the results of the Sept 11 attacks on America.

A major attack on two American Capatilistic Icons (World Trade Center). Think about all those American bankers and foreign investors plundging to their deaths!

A major attack on the Pentagon - the center of American Imperialism and War Planning.

You fucking commies should be jumping for joy!

FACE THE TRUTH (You romantic dreamers can't handle the truth)

I'm certain if Che GueVara was alive today - he would have been very happy with the results of Sept. 11. There is no doubt about that fact. He hated America and American influence with a strong passion. If alive today, he would not hide under a mask of sympathy like Fidel Castro is doing at this moment. El Che was a man of truth - he always let his feelings known to the public - why do you think Fidel was so eager to get rid of him? Think about it (difficult for ignorant communists) - Fidel knows how to lie and manipulate. El Che was not the type to play politics. He would have gladly said that the Sept 11 attacks was in the right step against American Capatilism and Imperialism.

[Moskitto]

Yeah, I get people going round saying, "It's people like you" and "Look, Bin Laden" or "Kill the communist." And I live in the UK so I feel sorry for anyone who lives in America.

And capitalist, I thought we had got rid of you. And stop generalising us.

[El Commandante]

I've been taking a lot of stick from people about it, I hate the fact that before I say anything against the status quo I have to say, "I don't support the actions on sept. 11th". The loss of life was horrendous, but people have to move on. I don't mean to seem insensitive but it is true.

I have really had to watch what I say to people, and you do get the names but it's pretty immature from idiots mainly.

[Moskitto]

Someone from near me died in that, And we're in Southwest England.

[Terminal Frost]

I think the whole episode on Sept 11th was sick. Real f**king sick, and I doubt there is any civilised human being that could not be repulsed by it. However, I know what you mean El Commandante, I have to declare my hate of the attacks myself. Red Celtic, I think its great that you are still carrying on the struggle in NY, esp. an anti-war rally.

Capitalist: I think you'll find that Che himself was strictly against the taking of civilian life. He declared that the people must be "won over", and that their support would be needed in the struggle. Che declared his hate of terrorism. Of course, you have no knowledge of this, as it is you who is ignorant. Why don't you unearth some facts before making irrational, falsified claims?

Though bad times have struck, we can't let up. The movement has nothing to do withe terrorism, and we have nothing to be ashamed of.

[Capitalist]

Che Guevara is the perfect example of a terrorist and he did attack civilians. Millions of civilians!

In fact Guevara was a very successful terrorist.

I am so impressed with his skills of terror.

Quite a resume your hero has on terror.

Let us see........

-Foreign invader on Cuban, African, & Bolivian Soil.

-The million plus Cuban Exiled Community in Miami is proof that the people of Cuba were NOT "Won Over" as you claim.

-The shattered lives of millions of Cubans is proof.

-11 million trapped on an island

-1000s killed every year in shark infested waters.

The problem is that leftist twits, who infect the American communications media and academia like body lice, are forever slandering the exiled Cubans, depicting them as anti-democratic right-wingers or old Batista supporters or outright fascists.

You want to see Cuba!

Go to Miami - that is where Cuba is today.

El Che helped do the unbelievable. He helped terrorize an entire community away from their home.

[Derar]

Goddamn .....
who is this ? Bush ??!!!
this sicko sounds exactly like George idiot bush .....

well , i guess lots of americans do sound exactly like him these days !!
its the ( bush brain-washing machine ) !!

[Kez]

Capitalist you are fucking idiot, u know fuck all about che, so shut the fuck up and go to mcdonalds and fuck your hamburgers while they last you fat motherfucking piece of shite.

comrade kamo

[RedCeltic]

You fucking commies should be jumping for joy!

You fucking twisted simple minded fool... Everyone here is a commie and a terrorst right? Everyone here wants to be Che right?

Look you idiot... do you see that symbol as my Avatar? that's the symbol of my political party "Socialist Party USA" who's HQ is right here in New Fuckin' Yawk!

Are we a militant group of commie basterds that want to see people die?

Mother fuckin capitalist troll..... We have been dedicated to PEACE and DEMOCRATIC-SOCIALISM for 100 years!

Why don't you go get an education?

[Terminal Frost]

AH Capitalist. Once again your pathetic, sad, miserable attempt to bring down Socialism had failed.

I'm from the UK. I have been to Miami. I have friends that live there. You'll find that most of the Cubans that live in the US are either economic-migrants or registered US citizens, mostly from birth.

Very few are actually political-migrants (also known as asylum-seekers). They are either people who wish to exploit the capitalist society in the US. Known colloquially as "money-grabbing capitalists".

I doubt that 1000 get killed each year, trying to get into the US. And even if they did, it would be nowt compared to the thousands that die in third-world countries due to exploitation and slave labour by US TNC's. Or the thousands killed in US "strikes" that happen BY COMPLETE ACCIDENT (read: incompetance) to hit civilian areas. Or the thousands that die on the streets of US cities because the state won't provide adequate shelters for these poor people. Maybe if Bush spent less money executing innocent "criminals", or less money trying to rape the oil fields of third world countries, this wouldn't happen.

But once again Capitalist, you don't know this. Cause you're brainwashed. Arrogant, insolent and downright blinded by the "American Dream". American Dream my ass.

[Moskitto]

You can talk capitalist

10,000,000 people die in famines every year while YOUR SYSTEM has food mountains. and you have the nerve to complain about people who actually have food and are supposedly being exploited by someone they cheared for at the Manics gig in Havana.

And I think you'll find that it is highly unlikely that Che killed millions of civilians. To put this into context, Mass murders such as Agusto Pinochet and General Franco have killed less than a million and they have ruled for 20 years. Hell by your argueing the number of WTC center type attacks that would have to have been carried out would be Hundreds, And if you hadn't noticed there weren't hundreds of terrorist attacks of this scale during the late 50s and early 60s.

[El Commandante]

Capitalist, you are a moronic fool, no one is taking you seriously, you are a joke. As Kamo said go and eat your McExploiters and I hope your arteries block with the grease.

Sounds servere and it is, you irritate the hell out of me, you sad, boring little gremlin.

[Moskitto]

Capitalist, Che wouldn't have supported the WTC attacks.

Unlike capitalists like you who are incapable of bringing source material into discussions, we socialists have generally studied a lot better than you have.

In "Guerrilla Warfare" by Che says the following about terrorism


It is necessary to distinguish clearly between sabotage, a revolutionary and highly effective method of warfare, and terrorism, a measure that is generally ineffective and in-discriminate in its results, since it often makes victims of innocent people and destroys a large number of lives that would be valuable to the revolution. Terrorism should be considered a valuable tactic when it is used to put to death some noted leader of the oppressing forces well known for his cruelty, his efficiency in repression, or other quality that makes his elimination useful. But the killing of persons of small importance is never advisable, since it brings on an increase of reprisals, including deaths.

Che clearly states that Terrorism is inneffective because it kills people who may otherwise be valuable to the revolution, He does however advocate the use of terrorism against leaders of oppressive regimes (such as that which is called "Targeted Assasinations" by the Israelis although not on the right people).


There is one point very much in controversy in Opinions about terrorism. Many consider that its use, by provoking police oppression, hinders all more or less legal or semiclandestine contact with the masses and makes impossible unification for actions that will be necessary at a critical moment. This is correct; but it also happens that in a civil war the repression by the governmental power in certain towns is already so great that, in fact, every type of legal action is suppressed already, and any action of the masses that is not supported by arms is impossible. It is therefore necessary to be circumspect in adopting methods of this type and to consider the consequences that they may bring for the revolution. At any rate, well-managed sabotage is always a very effective arm, though it should not be employed to put means of production out of action, leaving a sector of the population paralyzed (and thus without work) unless this paralysis affects the normal life of the society.

Che consideres terrorism to be dangerous because it may lead to more police oppression and closes the doors to legal methods of change. However where there is already heavy oppression it advocates carful saboutage rather than terrorism.


Assaults and terrorism in indiscriminate form should not be employed. More preferable is effort directed at large concentrations of people in whom the revolutionary idea can be planted and nurtured, so that at a critical moment they can be mobilized and with the help of the armed forces contribute to a favorable balance on the side of the revolution.

Che says that terrorism shouldn't be used, he suggests that carefully targeting and nurturing the revolutionarry force in a populous is the best approach as it gives the revolutionarry army more man power


Sabotage has nothing to do with terrorism; terrorism and personal assaults are entirely different tactics. We sincerely believe that terrorism is of negative value, that it by no means produces the desired effects, that it can turn a people against a revolutionary movement, and that it can bring a loss of lives to its agents out of proportion to what it produces. On the other hand, attempts to take the lives of particular persons are to be made, though only in very special circumstances; this tactic should be used where it will eliminate a leader of the oppression. What ought never to be done is to employ specially trained, heroic, self-sacrificing human beings in eliminating a little assassin whose death can provoke the destruction in reprisal of all the revolutionaries employed and even more.

This quotes says it even more, It advocates the use of terrorism only against those who are the leaders of the regime.

He most certainly does not advocate the use of suicide bombers as those in the WTC attacks.

(Edited by Moskitto at 9:46 pm on Dec. 1, 2001)

[Anonymous]

Capitalist you need to listen to me now. Stop the bullshit stop insulting people and if you wana be here listen to what they have to say if get the fuck out. Your democratic right? then listen to other people and give them a chance before you insulte everybody and pass judgement on everybody. Stop insulting! it will make everybody insult you and prety soon the level of discution around here will go down the tubes. We wont lets you do that and you will end up banned. Then you will say we are undemocratic and cant handle other peoples opinions when the truth is your the one who isnt respecting others so we have to take action. Listen to the people here man, you might agree with them if you give them a fucking chance.

[RedCeltic]

I'm certain if Che GueVara was alive today - he would have been very happy with the results of Sept. 11. There is no doubt about that fact

Are you sure he wouldn't have sided with Castro who was among the first world leaders to condemn the attacks?

[Capitalist]

You guys just CAN"T FACE THE TRUTH!

All the insults in the world will not make you right. You have to back up your insults with facts. None of which you guys have.

Come Back with PROOF that El Che's revolution served the people. Somebody show me WHO has benfitted?

Cubans can't walk on some beaches - because they are reserved for foriegnors ONLY! - besides tourists from Germany and Canada, and government officials - who has made a profit from Che's Revolution.

SOMEBODY SHOW ME WHO?

By the way, George Bush does not impress me has a great president, yet. No I think we haven't had a real President since Ronald Reagan - NOW REAGAN WAS A PRESIDENT.

"Tear down this wall" - Ronald Reagan adressing Gorbechev to tear down the Berlin Wall.

[Drifter]

cuba has an extremely good health system, or so i hear

[RedCeltic]

How old are you Capitalist? Are you even old enough to remember the Reagan years? Where you even alive in the '80s?

I had two butons I wore two school during Reagans second election campain, one said " Bombs, Bullits, Bullshit. " (my teacher stole that from me) and the other said, " The rich get richer and the poor get Reagan"


Here are some facts about Mr Reagan...

He was an actor... a real actor, not a real president. He was a man who made his living following directions of scripts and cnvincing people that the performance was a reality. Reagan fooled alot of people... and moved from fake broadcasts to fake statistics to fake facts.

Regan spent more money on arms and weapons than had ever been spent before, much more than the govt. income from taxes was. (which he cut to give a break to the rich)

Regan feared communism. Was deathly afrade of it. As president of the Screen actor's guild. During the McCarthey hearings he had alot of his actor buddies blacklisted for being communists. (if the same thing hapended with anyone elce in charge the list would have been burned) and he called the USSR an "Evil Empire"

During the Regan years... the rich got richer, while poverty and homelessness reached mamoth proportions.

When the Air traffic controlers went out on strike... Regan fired the whole lot of them... every air traffic controler in the countery was fired and replaced. A devistating blow to the labor movement.


Even though Reagan was President, he talked about Government as if it was a bad thing.

During Reagan's presidency he systematicly dismantiled programs that provided birth control services to the poor. He stopped programs in the US and stopped aid and funding to nations with family planning.

While the rich continued to be able to afford birth control, the poor in third world nations could no longer control the size of their families. The end result:

Over population, crime, abused unwanted children who grow up to be criminals, poor education as a result of families that need to struggle. The only thing the poor can produce is more poor people.

You know when I think about Reagan? When I see photos of starving children.


Also... here are a few thing Reagan actually said...

"Trees cause more polution than automobeles do" (1981)

"A tree is a tree, how many more do we have to look at?" (1966)

"Facts are stupid things" (1983)

"Fascism was realy the basis for the new deal" (1976)

"The American Petrolium institute filed sute against the EPA and charged that the agency was suppressed study reveles that 80% of our polution comes not from chimneys and auto exaust pipes but from plants and trees."

"I have flown twice over MT. St helens out on our west coast. I'm not a scientist and I don't know the figures but I have a suspician that one little mountain has probobly released more sulpher dioxide into the atmosphere of the world than has been released by ten years by automobile driving or things of that kind that people are so concerned about." (1980)

[Viva Zapata]

Cuba :

social security for all citizens (free health care/education)
85% of all people own their own home
hardly any criminality,practically no illiterates,low infant mortality rate,no homeless kids and no elderly people sleeping under bridges. and that while there is a murderous blockade imposed on this island by a much richer neighbour, who cannot even take care of all its citizens like a poor country as cuba. and the cubans in miami, most of them are economic refugees, or right wing scum. And read something 'bout the Cuban Revolution first, Capitalist, before spreading all your nonsense........

[Capitalist]

Does the Cuban Revolution Serve the People?

Free Housing?

Most Cuban houses lack proper plumbing, paint, electrical fixtures, some even lack roofing. Watch the TV footage of Cuba - the houses are in terrible shape.

Cubans'. Lack of chlorinated water, poor nutrition, deteriorating housing, and generally unsanitary
conditions have increased the number of infectious disease cases, especially in concentrated urban areas like Havana.

Free Health Care?

How good is this free health care anyway?

The free Healthcare provided to the Cubans is substandard. So bad that most Cubans must provide their own bed sheets in these free hospitals for the public.

Of course, not everyone in Cuba receives substandard health care. In fact, senior Cuban Communist Party officials and those who can pay in hard currency can get first-rate medical services any time they want.
"Medical Apartheid" - One hospital for those without dollars and One hospital for those with dollars or government connections.

Revolution end racism?

Years of racial intermarrying has turned the Cuban population into a spectrum of shades at the street level, Cuba has far less racial tension than virtually anywhere in the United States.

But official Cuba might as well have a sign on the doors of power saying “Whites only.”

Cuba’s blacks and mulattos make up more than 60 percent of the island’s population but hold less than 20 percent of the leadership positions in government. By one estimate, less than 10 percent of the top leadership in the Politburo is nonwhite.

The overwhelming number of officials working at the highest levels of the Cuban government and military are white. Just 3 of the 36 leaders of Cuban communism are nonwhites.

Check Out the Website - www.cubapolidata.com

Do you see any black faces in this list of Cuban Leaders?

Not too "Black Faces" many when compared to the Nation they supposely represent

[RedCeltic]

Capitalist... why do you assume everyone here supports Cuba's form of Govt. anyway? I'm really sick and tired of teling you I'm not communist.

You didn't even bother to comment on what I said about your precious Reagan. Why not?

(Edited by RedCeltic at 2:04 pm on Dec. 3, 2001)

[CommieBastard]

I too am not in complete agreement with the Cuban system, in fact, there is a lot in it i would disagree with. However, if I was to rate it compared to other systems in the world, i would say that Cuba is probably doing best...
And yes, there is not much representation of members of ethnic minorities in their governmental system. But that could be placed on the use of a system of representative democracy not too unakin to the US system. That's right, the leaders are elected, just like in the US. And i will bet you that the US has a worse rate of ethnic representation, i know the UK certainly does.

So, you are right, the Cuban system is not perfect, but it's sure as hell making steps forward that most of the world including your precious capitalist US, and certainly not any other capitalist country with the same resources as Cuba, have not made.

Capitalist, you actually beleive what you see on the TV?
You think they wont selectively show you pictures of worst areas? Are you that damn foolish?
As for a lack of "proper plumbing, paint, electrical fixtures, some even lack roofing", things were worse for people before the revolution, that may be shit, but it's a step up from what it used to be. And how about we compare the situation of housing in Cuba with, say, it's capitalist neighbour Mexico. Why, my my, it appears that it's worse for people in mexico than in cuba.
You ask how good the free healthcare is?
You say it's substandard, but like Cuban Education has been rated higher than many areas of the US. Quite an achievement for such a small and economically backward country, eh?
And yes, there are still elements of capitalism noticeable in Cuba, but this 'medical apartheid' you mention is worse in countries like the UK and the US.

[Capitalist]

About Reagan

I agree, Reagan sucked has an actor.

That is why I know he wasn't acting when he was President. He was a great hard liner when it came to outside world threats. He kicked Fidels ass right out of Grenada in 1983. He handled Kadafi quite well. And he stopped the drug lords from taking over South America. He saved Latin America from Fidel Castro's guerilla invasion forces. Enough about Reagan - I do not want to lose the focus of this topic.

Mexico and Cuba are not the same country or people - THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.

Mexico has always been a poor country.

Cuba was once a very rich country.

Main difference!

Do you think Las Vegas is a poor city?

Cuba was the Las Vegas of America before the Revolution. They were doing quite well - even under Batista's corrupt control. Besides Batista freed Castro from jail after the attacks - I do not think Castro did the same in return. Now don't get me wrong - Batista was no saint.

But before the revolution most Cubans were doing quite well financially. And yes there were a few poor people.

But now everyone is poor.

And yes I do believe the footage I see on TV of delapilated houses - one after another. You can see the poor living conditions in magazine articles too. The only fine establishments in Cuba today - are hotels and discos for the tourists. Everything is run down.

Cuba is a lot worst off today.

They have gone backwards under communism.

Their Economy is shit - thanks to Che Guevara's great banking skills.

Mexico was NEVER well off - Cuba was once very well off.

That is the difference!

[Capitalist]

Puerto Rico

Carribean Island Under American Influence.

If you want to compare Cuba to anyone. Compare them to Puerto Rico.

Don't compare them to Mexico - Compare them to a country with similar background.

Puerto Rico and Cuba - different people for certain.

However the two Carrabien islands followed the same path until the Cuban Revolution. Revolution stolen by Castro and CheGuevara, by the way. Many Cuban people were demonstating against Batista (not just Castro - unfortunately the true democratic revolutionary - Frank Pais was killed in his revolt - his revolt did not include guns - like Fidel's Revolution).

Other than the test bombing - which the Bush adminsitation plans to end 3 years from now. I'd have to say Puerto Rico is doing quite well - and much better off than Cuba.

Communism Sucks - Face it.

[Michael]

Quote: from Capitalist on 9:49 pm on Dec. 3, 2001
And he stopped the drug lords from taking over South America.


Jesus,listen to what the man here is talking about...You're really funny capitalist.Let me ask you something.Have you ever been out of your house?Man,you're fucking confused!As for the drug lords,they've taken over the whole wide world and they're inside the fucking white house..
Man,you're not going to wake up even if the whole world explodes.
Fuckhead,your civilized government is killing ppl everyday,but I suppose you really don't care.....
Sweet dreams...

[RedCeltic]

Capitalist... do you know what the main export of Afghanistan was before the war? And more importantly... do you know why it was their main export?



No... it wasn't Afghan dogs... It was Heroin and it was thier main export because they are one of the poorest nations on earth. Who runs the third world today? The drug lords!

In case you are thinking that it was Reagan who took on Pineapple face (Noriaga) in Pannama... your wrong it was Bush sr.

Reagan helped to fund "Freedom fighters" (terrorists) like those who we are fighting in Afghanistan... and those nasty Contras...

Do you know who the Contras are? A friend of mine from Guatamalla told me that the Contras live up in the mountains between Guatamalla and Nicragua... the come down now and then and raid towns... rob everyone and sometimes rape the women. They still exist now... as they did then, as a group of bandits.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 9:41 pm on Dec. 3, 2001)

[Anonymous]

and did you know that you goverment throw the CIA gives money to suport TERRORIST PARAMILITARY GROUPS inside columbia, the paramilitares are responsible for 85% of human rights violations in columbia`s ongoing civil war. they are not my words they are the UN`s human rights comission`s words. im going to say it again so maybe it will sink in your head: YOUR GOVERMENT FINANCIALY SUPORTS TERRORIST GROUPS IN COLUMBIA under the pretext of a "war on drugs". Another thing the are responsible for is "dusting the crops", do you know what this consists of? they fly a motherfucking plane full of poison over a famers hut and fields and dust hole area famer included. It is an independantly confirmed FACT. i watched this praticular information about the poison dusts on a documentary, and the people talking where either from credible well know organisation such as amnesty and UN or they where the farmers them selves so you can believe what im saying. at least you should so you`d wake up. This is the real war on drugs and it has an ugly face.

and it is my personal belief they only take these actions against drug production and FARC, not because of some war on drugs but because FARC are marxist. They are just hipocrit and cinical.I hope you answer my points, we dont need another augostos sandino around here...

[booga]

Quote: from Capitalist on 3:29 pm on Dec. 3, 2001
You guys just CAN"T FACE THE TRUTH!

All the insults in the world will not make you right. You have to back up your insults with facts. None of which you guys have.

Come Back with PROOF that El Che's revolution served the people. Somebody show me WHO has benfitted?



come on capitalist, get real. you got what you wanted so now give us what we want. facts to support what you say. we could go round and round about this seems like forever and that still doesnt change a damn thing but prove everyone else "right" about us. (that we cant get along even if God himself (the great terrible warrior) were to come down to earth.

according to my sources bush was in cuba recently (well back in april or may and he was quite impressed with cuba) i remember this because i had to bring it up to my instructor because the entire classroom had labled me as a "hater" (exept for the one who wanted down my chonies)for liking; you guessed it RATM and Che.

"truth hides between the velvet lies" rjd

[booga]

OKAY SO I MISSED SOME PAGES...CAPITALIST IM GOING DISECT EVERY WORD AND "I'LL BE BACK"

"WHOS RIGHT?"
"WHOS LEFT?"
"AND WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU?"

[CommieBastard]

i think you will find that poverty in cuba was very rampant before the revolution, the only ones who benefited from the las vegas style economy were batista and his cronies. Thats why the revolution was succesful, everyone was fed up of being made poor for the good of some suckers at the top. And that's why there isn't a revolution now to bring back capitalism, people are satisfied, they dont have it as shit anymore. The only economic problems cuba is having are those caused by the system shock of the removal of US trade, they are doing very well considering. The Cuban economy is, admittedly, worse off now than before the revolution, but this is not because of communism, but because of capitalist external factors.

If you were to see footage of the projects, would you beleive that every residence in the USA was like that? if you saw the rows and rows of terraced houses in liverpool or birkenhead, nearby me, many of which lack amenities, many of which are full of some of the most poverty-stricken and fucked up people in the world, would you beleive all housing in the UK to be like that?
truly, truly, ignorant. You have to learn to question everything and beleive nothing. If you don't do that, you arent rational, and it's no wonder you're a capitalist.

As for how well the puerto ricans are doing, there used to be a puerto rican posted on this site, and he certainly didn't think that things were too well for them.

[RedCeltic]

Very true CB, you could go and take footage of various places here in the US... like say Harlem in Mantattin, Jackson Hights in Queens, Various places in Brooklyn & the Bronx... Watts in California, Norfolk & Portsmouth in Virginia... etc... and if you had never been to the United States you would think everyone lived like that here.