Idealism or realism?

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

So, as so of you might know i'm an Anarcho-Communist.
To get there, to an honest world, is my ideal.

But in reality, i sometimes think that i could do more good as an left-social-democrat.

Can we really change the world or should i begin by making the world a bit better (and then, sad to say, keep capitalism alive a bit longer)?

So do i stick to a realist point of view, or will my idealism turn out to be realism?

(off-topic, there is a lot of 'ism' going round...fo shizm, my dizm!)

[helot]

How could you do more good as a social democrat? Does class collaboration and electioneering really posit a serious alternative to class struggle in the pursuit for the material and intellectual advancement of the working class?

[Avanti]

you can choose to jump off the machine

the social democrats are only a kinder face of the state-corporate-financial complex network

they don't care for your ass

they're going to gut the welfare systems

because they soon won't need the working class

at all

[Avanti]

revolution is idealism

revolution is about bringing an internal state of mind

out to the external three-dimensional world

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Idealism is about turning ideas into reality.
Realism is about denying ideas and conforming to society as it is today.

I think I prefer idealism!

Philosophy has the goal of chalenging conformity.

[ed miliband]

where is the state of "left-social-democracy" in your country? i'ma guess helping to prop up the social-democratic party that promises to institute a friendlier neoliberalism come the next election.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Hollands best guess at the time is the SP (Socialist Party).
Kind of socialist but far from communist.
More of a pretty leftist social-democratic kinda thingy...

How can i help my country in the here and now?
Do i Form a new party, a communist party, hope for the best, ban the old "commie's are bad"-thoughts out of peoples minds and "fall back" into idealism?
Or do i join the SP and make the best possible situation for now and the near future?

This is a bit of an internal struggle...but being realistic means i think the revolution is gonna take a while and lots of people will starve in the mean time...

[Avanti]

abolishing the system

by breaking away from it

is the best road forward

you cannot make a revolution against the system

you can make one against yourself

[hatzel]

revolution is idealism

revolution is about bringing an internal state of mind

out to the external three-dimensional world

There are more than three dimensions in our world. If you're only dealing with three dimensions you're nothing but a petty reformist. Capitalism with a human face etc.

[Avanti]

i believe there are billions of dimensions

Babylon is a three-dimensional

perhaps four-dimensional system (if beings or thought systems from other dimensions are involved, i don't know)

Communism will release all dimensions simultaneously

it begins in your mind

[Jimmie Higgins]

Hollands best guess at the time is the SP (Socialist Party).
Kind of socialist but far from communist.
More of a pretty leftist social-democratic kinda thingy...

How can i help my country in the here and now?
Do i Form a new party, a communist party, hope for the best, ban the old "commie's are bad"-thoughts out of peoples minds and "fall back" into idealism?
Or do i join the SP and make the best possible situation for now and the near future?

This is a bit of an internal struggle...but being realistic means i think the revolution is gonna take a while and lots of people will starve in the mean time...

It would be realistic to say that right now revolution seems unlikely in the short-term or at least as far as we can tell, but I think also we have to think about what would change that equation - why is revolution unlikely right now?

We have pleanty of small parties, there are radicals with good ideas (for the most part:lol:), but ultimately I think it's the absense of an independant class movement that could adopt or discover, probably both, radical conclusions and tactics. An upsurge where are thinking about how they, in their own workplaces and neighborhoods and cities can organize a democratic class force - not wait for saviors or be passive supporters as other lead the charge in their name.

If self-emancipation is the goal, then parties that seek to build up reforms or (passive) supporters because either they don't think socialism is possible, think it's only possible through bourgoise institutions, are not realistic vehicles for that.

I agree "realism" in this sense is pessimism.


abolishing the system

by breaking away from it

is the best road forward

you cannot make a revolution against the system

you can make one against yourself And I think sometimes idealism can be pessimism too.

If we don't confront the capitalist state, then if we ever gain any ground or if people actually began to exploit the "cracks" of the system to a signigicant degree, then the state will confront us. And because we haven't built our own independant and cooperative power as workers, then we will be defenseless and easily picked off.

There needs to be a balence - we need the vision (or idealism in the generic sense of optomism, not philosophical idealism) but we also need to understand the material now so we can hopefully begin to figure out how to get from here to there.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Well, since I know your from the Netherlands.
Let's take a look at the biggest party that calls itself Social-Democratic, PvdA (Party of Labor, unfortunately not the Albanian kind:lol: ) they have won many seats but they now work together with the VVD.
They have plans which will fuck up the possibility of education for people who are not rich.
The moment Social-Democrats get any kind of power they run to the right ad fast as they can.

I don't think working inside of these kind of parties works.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Okay, so maybe i've asked the question wrong and (apparently) the wrong term.

I won't ever join a party which is not the far most leftist. So maybe i meant Socialist-democratic, instead of the Obama-type social-democrat.

Even though our (the dutch) SP is most left, it is far from communist; maybe because they just aren't, maybe because they're being careful about the C-word.

So...join the SP for realist-sake or stay true to my idealism for a full frontal attack on capitalism (to be true, i'd back-stab :thumbup1:).

[Ostrinski]

What about the CWI Netherlands chapter?

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Okay, so maybe i've asked the question wrong and (apparently) the wrong term.

I won't ever join a party which is not the far most leftist. So maybe i meant Socialist-democratic, instead of the Obama-type social-democrat.

Even though our (the dutch) SP is most left, it is far from communist; maybe because they just aren't, maybe because they're being careful about the C-word.

So...join the SP for realist-sake or stay true to my idealism for a full frontal attack on capitalism (to be true, i'd back-stab :thumbup1:).

Why an anarcho-communist would support SP is beyond me.
But even actual Marxists shouldn't, for one they distort Marx.
I've read stuff on their site saying that Marx was not a communist but he just thought that capitalism would fall inevitably.
While the second part is not false, to say Marx was not a communist is laughable.

But a much more important reason is the fact that Marxism is scientific.
Marxism is not utopian, it is based on scientific analysis.
To be a social-democrat because it, apparently, is “realist” is ridicoulous.
Marxism isn't idealist, Marx himself attacked idealism.

Saying Marxism is idealist and Social-Democracy is a realism, is to attack Marxism and, in my eyes, you aren't a marxist if you work inside the SP with such a horrible excuse.

[helot]

Okay, so maybe i've asked the question wrong and (apparently) the wrong term.

I won't ever join a party which is not the far most leftist. So maybe i meant Socialist-democratic, instead of the Obama-type social-democrat.

Even though our (the dutch) SP is most left, it is far from communist; maybe because they just aren't, maybe because they're being careful about the C-word.

So...join the SP for realist-sake or stay true to my idealism for a full frontal attack on capitalism (to be true, i'd back-stab :thumbup1:).

Could you not instead focus on trying to develop an independent working class movement via community and workplace organising around bread and butter issues and trying to instill revolutionary politics? It's a very longterm solution and would take alot of work but you can atleast try to make noticeable improvements in your life and those around you even if it doesn't develop a revolutionary character. Surely, you can see that it'd be far more useful than campaigning for some social democrats that are looking for parliamentary seats and not working class strength.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

But a much more important reason is the fact that Marxism is scientific.
Marxism is not utopian, it is based on scientific analysis.
To be a social-democrat because it, apparently, is “realist” is ridicoulous.
Marxism isn't idealist, Marx himself attacked idealism.


There are a couple of things wrong here..

1. Marxism is as scientific as is Economy. It is not. They are both based on taking educated guesses. Would Marxism have been science, the USSR wouldn't have turned out to be a total drag.

2. Realism is my here and now. I might just make a bigger difference during my lifetime in politics than in activism (might).


My final goal will always be an anarcho-communist world. I will never turn my back on that. What i do in the meantime? Make a difference. At least i hope i will. Can i help leftify the Dutch Socialist Party? Can i help the working class, the disabled and the elderly? Perhaps.

What if i die and the revolution didn't come? I will blame myself dying for not doing shit. I don't want to. Life is crappy enough without that.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

There are a couple of things wrong here..

1. Marxism is as scientific as is Economy. It is not. They are both based on taking educated guesses. Would Marxism have been science, the USSR wouldn't have turned out to be a total drag.

2. Realism is my here and now. I might just make a bigger difference during my lifetime in politics than in activism (might).


My final goal will always be an anarcho-communist world. I will never turn my back on that. What i do in the meantime? Make a difference. At least i hope i will. Can i help leftify the Dutch Socialist Party? Can i help the working class, the disabled and the elderly? Perhaps.

What if i die and the revolution didn't come? I will blame myself dying for not doing shit. I don't want to. Life is crappy enough without that.

:laugh:

Dialectical and Historical materialism are scientific methods and a key part of Marxism, so yeah I would say Marxism is scientific.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

:laugh:

Dialectical and Historical materialism are scientific methods and a key part of Marxism, so yeah I would say Marxism is scientific.

But as you are subconsciously saying that it is only partly scientific.

Not really the point though.
I've decided to not join the SP right now and keep fighting for a leftist world.




What about the CWI Netherlands chapter?


Funny you ask, i discovered that they are also active within the Dutch SP.
Not really sure how active they are. Their last post was november this year, but no other recent material is to be found.
Maybe another Dutchie knows more?

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

I'm not saying it is only partially scientific.
The base on which marxism is build is dialectical and historical materialism.
There are other things like DotP that are important aspects of Marxist theory, but those were arrived at with the scientific method. Thus, Marxism is fully scientifc.

[Avanti]

And I think sometimes idealism can be pessimism too.

If we don't confront the capitalist state, then if we ever gain any ground or if people actually began to exploit the "cracks" of the system to a signigicant degree, then the state will confront us. And because we haven't built our own independant and cooperative power as workers, then we will be defenseless and easily picked off.

There needs to be a balence - we need the vision (or idealism in the generic sense of optomism, not philosophical idealism) but we also need to understand the material now so we can hopefully begin to figure out how to get from here to there.

we cannot see the light

because we are blind

my sight is not good

but i can separate light from darkness

we need to escape the mental grip of Babylon

otherwise we're doomed to perpetuate

the cycle of dominance and obedience

for all eternity

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

i believe there are billions of dimensions

Babylon is a three-dimensional

perhaps four-dimensional system (if beings or thought systems from other dimensions are involved, i don't know)

Communism will release all dimensions simultaneously

it begins in your mind

Are you sure you're not writing science fiction?

[human strike]

I generally find that those who describe themselves as 'realists' are the greatest idealists of all. Be realistic - demand the impossible!

[GPDP]

I generally find that those who describe themselves as 'realists' are the greatest idealists of all. Be realistic - demand the impossible!

Too true. I actually came in here to say something akin to this. Whenever some liberal friend or whatever tries to make the distinction between their politics and mine as being their "realism" versus my "idealism," I turn it around on them. If you ask me, the idealist is he who thinks we can merely reform the system or work within it to make it better without getting rid of it, while the realist, erm, realizes this system is shit and working within it does jack shit but to perpetuate the current state of affairs.

It's around this point that they often shift gears and try either the "pessimist" or "cynical" angle on me, but that too is easily overturned. For what is someone who thinks we cannot do better than the current system but a pessimist? :D

At the end of the day, such terms are often devoid of any meaningful content, and serve as nothing but buzzwords that mean whatever you want them to mean to get your point across and/or shut down debate. Don't marry yourself to either label, if you ask me. There are far better words to describe your thoughts and ideas.