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View Full Version : Irony, Retro and "Hipsters"



Jimmie Higgins
19th November 2012, 08:59
NY Times: How to Live Without Irony (http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/how-to-live-without-irony/)

I thought this was interesting and I've often wondered about the ironic tendency in contemporary pop culture - but I think also that this article has a bit too much "these kids today" even as the author tries to cut against that view of things.

I think she's correct in drawing a parallel between 90's "apathy" and today's "irony" - I think both have an appeal in reflecting both an alienation from society while also a demoralization in views that things could be any different. I've often thought really the only difference between hippies and 90s alternative/hip-hop youth culture is the context of a lack of a civil rights movement and the movements that followed it (resluting in a sort of subjective optomism and confidence among youth for the hippies and just depression/cynacism for youth cultures since).

But in other ways, I think that this take on Irony and simialr expressions is a little flat. I also think that Irony, or Ironic-retro isn't just "look how dumb this old fashion was" (although the worst examples of ironic fashion are definatly in this mold) but also a bit of nostalgia on the one hand but also a sort of striving for some optomism from the past. I think the ironic choices of hipsters can reflect either a sort of comfort (false) nostalgia (of "doesn't this remind you of when you were young and things were better?) or a nostalgia/longing for a sense of optomism of the past: a sort of reflection of cultures pessimism today presented in relief. In this case we see a sort of nostalgia around retro-futuristic/utopianism or around a kind of romanticized "flower power" or 70s-optomism.

Irony of the sort described in the article definately seems like a reaction to an alienating world where there is no point in trying to sincerely believe in anything because that new band you like will just sell-out or go undiscovered, mainstream movies are much more controlled by big companies (first agencies and now a revived studio system) and has been since the early 80s and so on. Everything you like is a commodity, so why love anything any more than some kitchy and more obvious commodities from the past.

The other side of hipsterism is also a rejection of this: the fetishization of artisan and craft-produced items as a way to avoid surrounding yourself with mass-produced commodities: "I'm an induvidual and so everything I wear or own as a way to show my induviduality comes from induvidual producers!" Of course IMO this is a petit-bourgoise fantasy and elitist since you are spending more to create a sort of high-culture out of DIY and craft as opposed to the "low-culture" of mass-produced and marketed commodities. The "hipper-than-thou" stereotype of liking only obscure or antiquated music also falls into this - but on the other hand, this generation also has decades of recorded music at our fingertips... the baby boomers only had old blues and folk and country music recorded in the 1930s, but they had their own version of all the "retro" music of today, so I think this isn't a fair accusation by cultural critics - music and film always are in dialectical discussion with other (especially from past eras) literature or music or film.

Anyway, what do people think that these things mean? What does it say about people today, our society, and attitudes?

The image below is of a button design I did a few years ago which more succinctly expressed my feelings on the subject at the time.



http://img0.etsystatic.com/000/0/5274106/il_fullxfull.224221388.jpg (http://a4ds.com/Art_for_a_Democratic_Society/A4DS/A4DS.html)

Raúl Duke
19th November 2012, 14:27
Allegedly, that article stated that "hipsterdom is dead" or some such (at least according to a few other news sources that commented on it)...
It's "dead" depending on how you view it.
The original hipsters/indie kids mostly "died" out a while ago in the sense of reification and transformation towards a commodified hipster subculture...


The other side of hipsterism is also a rejection of this: the fetishization of artisan and craft-produced items as a way to avoid surrounding yourself with mass-produced commodities: "I'm an induvidual and so everything I wear or own as a way to show my induviduality comes from induvidual producers!"

Some "hipsters" do by artisan/craft stuff or thrift-store stuff.

But many so-called "hipsters" buy mass-produced commodities such as from UO, etc that either appear cool to them or have the appearance of said artisanal or thrift-store retro stuff.

l'Enfermé
19th November 2012, 15:22
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/9066718.jpg

ÑóẊîöʼn
19th November 2012, 16:42
But in other ways, I think that this take on Irony and simialr expressions is a little flat. I also think that Irony, or Ironic-retro isn't just "look how dumb this old fashion was" (although the worst examples of ironic fashion are definatly in this mold) but also a bit of nostalgia on the one hand but also a sort of striving for some optomism from the past. I think the ironic choices of hipsters can reflect either a sort of comfort (false) nostalgia (of "doesn't this remind you of when you were young and things were better?) or a nostalgia/longing for a sense of optomism of the past: a sort of reflection of cultures pessimism today presented in relief. In this case we see a sort of nostalgia around retro-futuristic/utopianism or around a kind of romanticized "flower power" or 70s-optomism.

I'd like to comment on the retro-futurism, as it interests me.

Part of the appeal of websites like Tales of Future Past (http://davidszondy.com/future/futurepast.htm) is the sense of ambition that pervades so much of the stuff typical of those eras. True, it can on occasion come across as hubristic or goofy, but it's still a refreshing change from the world of today, which seems to be ruled by whey-faced bean-counters without a single microgram of magnificence in their withered souls, nor the merest quantum of adventure in their shrivelled hearts.

Of course, the social zeitgeist of Future Past is distinctly old-fashioned, at least at its origin. But as far as I can tell there is no good reason for a forthright attitude of scientific daring to be restricted to white heterosexual males.

One of my hopes for a non-capitalist future is that instead of coming up with an endless stream of trendy iCrap, we direct technological development towards reshaping our world in the human image using the marvels of science, as well as exploring entirely new worlds.

Jimmie Higgins
19th November 2012, 18:04
I'd like to comment on the retro-futurism, as it interests me.

Part of the appeal of websites like Tales of Future Past (http://davidszondy.com/future/futurepast.htm) is the sense of ambition that pervades so much of the stuff typical of those eras. True, it can on occasion come across as hubristic or goofy, but it's still a refreshing change from the world of today, which seems to be ruled by whey-faced bean-counters without a single microgram of magnificence in their withered souls, nor the merest quantum of adventure in their shrivelled hearts.

Of course, the social zeitgeist of Future Past is distinctly old-fashioned, at least at its origin. But as far as I can tell there is no good reason for a forthright attitude of scientific daring to be restricted to white heterosexual males.

One of my hopes for a non-capitalist future is that instead of coming up with an endless stream of trendy iCrap, we direct technological development towards reshaping our world in the human image using the marvels of science, as well as exploring entirely new worlds.

I went to an art show in San Francisco last year and they had turned a whole gallery space into "utopia" - it was all geodesic domes and things like that, but also half Occupy-influenced. There was also a section with old newspapers from anarchist and socialist influenced hippie societies in San Francisco from the 60s and 70s. I though it was sort of amazing, but embodied a lot of these contradictions between the common sentiment that utopian ideas are totally outdated and a sort of kitchy relic, but also a real reverence and longing for some of those ideas when presented as actual history (as in the old posters and newspapers from the hippie era).

I think if Occupy hadn't happened, there wouldn't have been things in the gallery like a central circular platform for people to hold assemblies and I think the interpretation of "utopia" would have been much more on the mocking side of things.

ÑóẊîöʼn
19th November 2012, 20:14
I went to an art show in San Francisco last year and they had turned a whole gallery space into "utopia" - it was all geodesic domes and things like that, but also half Occupy-influenced. There was also a section with old newspapers from anarchist and socialist influenced hippie societies in San Francisco from the 60s and 70s. I though it was sort of amazing, but embodied a lot of these contradictions between the common sentiment that utopian ideas are totally outdated and a sort of kitchy relic, but also a real reverence and longing for some of those ideas when presented as actual history (as in the old posters and newspapers from the hippie era).

I think if Occupy hadn't happened, there wouldn't have been things in the gallery like a central circular platform for people to hold assemblies and I think the interpretation of "utopia" would have been much more on the mocking side of things.

Wow, sounds like I would have loved that exhibition.

I think a lot of mockery comes from the simple fact that most if not all of the futurists guessed wrongly about the state of the future. Personally I think the "wrongness" of their guesses was less to do with actual technological development and more to do with political and economic realities that the futurists didn't really consider for various reasons.

I just hope that the futurists only got the timescales for extraterrestrial development and settlement wrong, otherwise things are looking pretty bleak and limited for the human species in the long term.

The invention of the transistor and the integrated circuit allows us to do some pretty amazing and useful things. But I've read speculation that it effectively negated a large number of reasons for sending human beings into space, rather than just probes, remotely controlled robots and satellites. If that's true then I'm kind of bummed by that. I want both the relative freedom of information granted by advanced electronics and I want humans living in space.

But I'm guessing that my enthusiasm for retro-futurism isn't really ironic, more an expression of disappointment with the future that I ended up living in. Here's hoping the rest of the 21st century turns out better.

Jimmie Higgins
20th November 2012, 04:30
But I'm guessing that my enthusiasm for retro-futurism isn't really ironic, more an expression of disappointment with the future that I ended up living in. Here's hoping the rest of the 21st century turns out better.I love this.

bcbm
21st November 2012, 20:07
I love this.

me too and i think it actually captures the spirit of some 'hipsterdom' better than the 'irony' thing. i'd also like to offer a tom robbins quote i think captures my reaction to the article pretty well: 'the stiff-witted and academic seem not to comprehend that it is entirely possible to be ironic and sincere at the same instant; that a knowing tongue in cheek does not necessarily preclude an affectionate glow in heart.'

beyond that i feel like most of this article is about six years too late (there is a trucker hat in one of the pictures, come on) and hipster 'culture' or whatever has moved on from most of what she is talking about or simply split and branched out in many directions, much of what does include creative output rather than simply hanging on to the past.

Flying Purple People Eater
21st November 2012, 20:16
Retro-Futurism.

:laugh:

ÑóẊîöʼn
21st November 2012, 20:23
Retro-Futurism.

:laugh:

Why is it funny?

The Garbage Disposal Unit
21st November 2012, 20:47
This thread should be on pause until everyone has gone and read everything by the Institute for Experimental Freedom. I will weigh in afterward.