Cyberpunk Capitalism

[Avanti]

the future is here.

the economy will never recover.

states throughout the world will implode.

vast and dark urban landscapes spread out in all directions, surrounding tiny gated communities which stand like shining forts in the wilderness. these forts - consisting of corporate glass skyscrapers, artificial parks with trees and middle and upper class neighborhoods - are constantly threatened by the majority of the people.

all welfare systems will crumble. law and order will crumble, except amongst those chosen by Babylon. most people will survive like hunters and gatherers, but in a dystopian urban landscape of decrepit tenement areas, badlands controlled by criminal gangs, abandoned industrial wastelands.

this is inevitable.

technology marches on. most workers in the industrial and service sectors will lose their jobs. there's no need to cultivate workers, so the social systems will be privatised for those lucky enough to buy insurances.

the rest of us will have to live as moochers and looters. london will look like calcutta. technology will march on. the environmental crisis will deepen. the news will produce cheap entertainment. the glow of the city streetlights will leave orange reflections in acid rain.

the state will only protect the prosperity and property of those blessed with affluence. drones will patrol the night sky, protecting the haves from the have-nots. we will need to have our own illegal clinics, our own security, our own autonomous communities. our own community gardens.

we are the flower-children. we are the weed. we are the wretched of the earth. the tribes of the concrete jungle. we will combine the survival skills of ancient amazonians with the high-tech of wikileaks and anonymous. we will garb ourselves in dreads, medallions, hoods, shaved heads, spiked boots, coloured faces, sunglasses and piercings, forming new identities around new symbols. we will re-discover faith through techno-shamanism and stomping music through illegal parties.

the border between the first and the third world is blurring. it will collapse. everything will be like brazil. giant favelas, small gated communities. a rich white elite oppressing the coloured masses through drones patrolling the skies, private contractors and far right death squads. it's a grim future, but the sunrise over the skies will herald a future for the wild children of the earth.

neoliberalism is over.

globalism is over.

now we are living in the age of cyberpunk.

welcome to the future.

[l'Enfermé]

Exactly what I was thinking.

[Jimmie Higgins]

welcome to the future.Looks more than a bit like the past. At least the pre-WWII past - I think the post-war "boom" was the exception, welcome to the norm.

[Avanti]

Looks more than a bit like the past. At least the pre-WWII past - I think the post-war "boom" was the exception, welcome to the norm.

60 years of etatism, public welfare, growth and middle class bubbles is hardly an "exception". it's an era in its own right.

the difference between now and the pre-ww2 past is that the population is larger, most people are urban, and most societies in the west are multi-cultural and slowly dissolving/atomizing.

the result will be a global cold civil war, between the haves and the have nots. between insiders and outsiders. the conflict between workers and capitalists is dead. foxconn is hiring robots. robots will make robots.

the luddites are right.

the struggle will be between the Babylon and the Neo-tribes.

[Jimmie Higgins]

60 years of etatism, public welfare, growth and middle class bubbles is hardly an "exception". it's an era in its own right.OK. Well the era was an exception :lol:


the difference between now and the pre-ww2 past is that the population is larger, most people are urban,Yes, very true.
and most societies in the west are multi-cultural and slowly dissolving/atomizing. Hmm, don't know about that.


the result will be a global cold civil war, between the haves and the have nots. between insiders and outsiders. the conflict between workers and capitalists is dead. foxconn is hiring robots. robots will make robots.

the luddites are right.

the struggle will be between the Babylon and the Neo-tribes.Um, I'll take your word for it, but I still hafta work, so my stuggles are a little more old fashioned for the moment.:lol: But when they make consious labor-creating robots, I'm all for robot-power.

[Avanti]

i believe the dissolution is positive. since the elite has no use for us any more, they'll cut down on the police and focus it on protecting the gated communities, while allowing poor neighborhoods to decay. that's positive, since we can move in and take over and form new identities.

the new world will be much freer and much wilder. children will grow up not being indoctrinated at school. the elite and their middle class managerial slaves will continue to perpetuate western civilization within their enclaves, but we will form a new southern anti-civilization in the urban sprawl, more similar to primordial hunter-gatherer societies.

a new social structure: neo-tribes based around subcultural symbols

a new form of production: open source

a new form of resistance: survival

a new religion: techno-shamanism

life will be an adventure.

join us. you'll have to, sooner or later.

[ind_com]

the rest of us will have to live as moochers and looters. london will look like calcutta. technology will march on. the environmental crisis will deepen. the news will produce cheap entertainment. the glow of the city streetlights will leave orange reflections in acid rain.


What exactly are you implying?

[Avanti]

What exactly are you implying?

extreme class differences. no way for the elite to be able to control the masses. staggering poverty. weak social systems.

what you want the avanti to imply?

[ind_com]

extreme class differences. no way for the elite to be able to control the masses. staggering poverty. weak social systems.

what you want the avanti to imply?

Never mind, I thought it was linked to the looters and moochers part.

[Avanti]

i am a looter and a moocher myself ;)

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

i believe the dissolution is positive. since the elite has no use for us any more, they'll cut down on the police and focus it on protecting the gated communities, while allowing poor neighborhoods to decay. that's positive, since we can move in and take over and form new identities.

the new world will be much freer and much wilder. children will grow up not being indoctrinated at school. the elite and their middle class managerial slaves will continue to perpetuate western civilization within their enclaves, but we will form a new southern anti-civilization in the urban sprawl, more similar to primordial hunter-gatherer societies.

The ruling classes have so far shown no signs at any point now or in the future that they intend to relinquish their control of the means of production. There can be no self-determination so long as the means of production remain in the hands of an elite. The automation of those means does not necessarily imply that they will lose control, barring the creation of artificial intelligences capable of threatening that.


a new social structure: neo-tribes based around subcultural symbols

a new form of production: open source

a new form of resistance: survival

a new religion: techno-shamanism

life will be an adventure.

join us. you'll have to, sooner or later.

How could such a a segment of global society be anything but subservient to the aforementioned elites?

I can't help but notice that they would still be existing in the scenario you are describing.

[Avanti]

yes.

what i am talking about is the future for the struggle, not utopianism.

[hetz]

2/10

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

yes.

what i am talking about is the future for the struggle, not utopianism.

The problem is that there is no such thing as "the" struggle, since the working class is not unified on a global scale.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

2/10

I'd give this thread 1/10.

Too much Gibsonism; the Neo-Schmatmazoids and Tribal-Neo(n)confederates shall have to have a civil war under the neon-advertisement skies of Chiba.

[Avanti]

The problem is that there is no such thing as "the" struggle, since the working class is not unified on a global scale.

there is always the struggle.

but the working class is soon non-existent. the only remnant will be the engineers, and they are by default loyal to their employers. in the middle of the 21st century, we will have 30-40% base unemployment.

those who should be unified if you want unification are not the working class, but the outsider class. the punks, the moochers, the looters, the social rejects, the wretched of the earth. the unwashed hordes who are inhabiting the urban jungle.

that's the future. not workers raising red banners. but gangs with tags as markers for their territories battling for scarce resources, then and then downing a drone with a well-aimed rpg shot.

instead of having ideologies, we'll have symbols. instead of language, we'll have action. the goal is not to think, for thinking makes you weaker. the goal is survival. the goal is to rediscover humanity, and we can achieve the anarcho-primitivist dream in the cyberpunk setting, by discovering how to be urban hunter-gatherer neo-tribes.

that is far more exciting than union bosses negotiating with industry bosses, than politics and committees and academics talking and talking and talking and talking.

[Tenka]

What is the Pan-Gang Revolutionary Death Squad going to replace Capitalism with?

[Avanti]

What is the Pan-Gang Revolutionary Death Squad going to replace Capitalism with?

neo-anarchism.

surreationalism.

freedom.

and replacing is not the right word.

we will replace reality, not replace a part of it. but the whole thing.

because reality sucks.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

neo-anarchism.

surreationalism.

freedom.

and replacing is not the right word.

we will replace reality, not replace a part of it. but the whole thing.

because reality sucks.


Note to self- Purge Avanti

[Avanti]

you need the avanti.

and there will always be an avanti.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Have you read "accelerando"?

Personally I think our future will look like "Iron Council".

[Avanti]

Have you read "accelerando"?

Personally I think our future will look like "Iron Council".

sounds retro.

totalitarianism will never become great again.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

This future sounds a lot better than the present. So you're telling me my friends and I can run around pillaging and get away with it? Sweet.

[Avanti]

This future sounds a lot better than the present. So you're telling me my friends and I can run around pillaging and get away with it? Sweet.

yes. nobody would care as long as you don't attack megacorps, the government or middle class neighborhoods.

[Jimmie Higgins]

sounds retro.

totalitarianism will never become great again.Don't shoot the messenger. It's true, we are headed for a capitalism where magic has been commodified for use by the ruling class: alchecomomy. They are done reshaping economic relations and now must go on to reshape material reality and the laws of physics to create new wealth.

[Avanti]

Don't shoot the messenger. It's true, we are headed for a capitalism where magic has been commodified for use by the ruling class: alchecomomy. They are done reshaping economic relations and now must go on to reshape material reality and the laws of physics to create new wealth.

that is very true. i choose to interpret that allegorically.

because symbols are everything.

[Will Scarlet]

Remember to take the lift when you hit the ShinRa building.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Have you read "accelerando"?

Personally I think our future will look like "Iron Council".

I need to read that. What does "Iron Council" look like?


there is always the struggle.

but the working class is soon non-existent. the only remnant will be the engineers, and they are by default loyal to their employers. in the middle of the 21st century, we will have 30-40% base unemployment.

those who should be unified if you want unification are not the working class, but the outsider class. the punks, the moochers, the looters, the social rejects, the wretched of the earth. the unwashed hordes who are inhabiting the urban jungle.

that's the future. not workers raising red banners. but gangs with tags as markers for their territories battling for scarce resources, then and then downing a drone with a well-aimed rpg shot.

That's certainly a interesting vision of the future, but so was HG Wells' Things To Come (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Things_to_Come). But "interesting" is not the same thing as "true" or "useful".


instead of having ideologies, we'll have symbols. instead of language, we'll have action. the goal is not to think, for thinking makes you weaker. the goal is survival. the goal is to rediscover humanity, and we can achieve the anarcho-primitivist dream in the cyberpunk setting, by discovering how to be urban hunter-gatherer neo-tribes.

Thinking in general does not make one weaker. Critical thinking skills are an absolutely essential part of one's intellectual defence mechanisms. Popular culture is dumbed down because it's cheaper and easier to produce that way, plus an unthinking population doesn't threaten the hegemony.


that is far more exciting than union bosses negotiating with industry bosses, than politics and committees and academics talking and talking and talking and talking.

The dichotomy you appear to be presenting - stuffy academic Marxism versus free-spirited anarchistic tribalism - is one entirely of your own construction. There are straight-edge anarchists, and Marx himself was a big drinker. Your emphasis on talking and negotiation also conveniently ignores events like the October Revolution, which demonstrates that Marxists are plenty capable of action.

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

Was the OP inspired by watching Mad Max or Escape From New York?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Was the OP inspired by watching Mad Max or Escape From New York?

Reading too much William Gibson, rather.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I need to read that. What does "Iron Council" look like?The Paris Commune as a train, powered by people made half-machine in order to construct the tracks, as it travels across a wasteland where the laws of physics don't apply in the hopes of staying ahead of the police and hired thugs of the train owner.

[Avanti]

everything in 19th century science fiction appeared in the 20th century. submarines. tanks. bomber planes. moon rockets.

everything in 20th century science fiction will manifest for real in the 21st century. human imagination directs reality, with a time-lapse.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

everything in 19th century science fiction appeared in the 20th century. submarines. tanks. bomber planes. moon rockets.

Where's my Cavorite (http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=717) then?


everything in 20th century science fiction will manifest for real in the 21st century. human imagination directs reality, with a time-lapse.

The human imagination can't override thermodynamics, so we're not going to be seeing perpetual motion/free energy machines, ever.

[Avanti]

not in this dimension perhaps. who knows how it looks in the fifth dimension? maybe unicorns are real there?

i am also a technoshamanist in case you forgot.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Lol does this really belong in economics?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

not in this dimension perhaps. who knows how it looks in the fifth dimension? maybe unicorns are real there?

What are you talking about?


i am also a technoshamanist in case you forgot.

How is that relevant?

[Avanti]

we humans are stuck in the third dimension. only through psychedelic drugs or psychosis can we contact the other levels, both the lower and the higher astral spheres. that's why i believe. now i'm no hippie, but i have been a frequent user of hallucinogens, and i've seen some pretty amazing things.

[Qumielhan]

And how about that:

1. Bolivar cannot carry double. Credits can no longer support the demand for the constantly rising supply. This means that some capitalists just have to go bankrupt in order for others to take away their demand and flourish.
And who are in the best position? The USA. EU will either crumble or lose third-to-half of its members, either way it will be no longer a USA's adversary.

The same time China has made plans to redirect its growing industry to satisfy their inner market. And in order to supply the demand (what a pun) for their production they'll have to increase workers wages -> their purchasing power.

This rises costs on producing practicaly anything in China. So everyone almost everywhere in the core nations and some peripheral nations suddenly become poorer. Except China, of course.
This intensifies the struggle between the rich and the poor. And also hits the core nations' capitalists. Either they'll have to move their industry from China (which isn't possible - there's simply no other market of labour force such big and cheap). So they'll have to cover the expenses by intensifying exploitations of other periphery nations.

Ever read about naxalites and their actions in India? Phillipinean maoist guerrillas? Not to mention some parts of Latin America.

This has a potential to start new and reinforce ongoing revolutionary guerrillas.

In a nutshell: America, Japan and Eurocore are going to be fine, as usual, but all others will suffer more and more because of the crisis.

&

We have THE INTERNET. Which is a superb tool that has barely uncovered all its potential.
Imagine something like, I don't know, the Fifth International, stationed in the web on a server somewhere in Cuba or Venezuela. No need for congresses - just uplink from your computer or even a mobile phone and get new information, make a report or coordinate your actions with comrades in other city, nation, continent (or planet, lol). You can now actually KNOW what is going on in Palestine, India, Colombia, Mexico, etc. Communicate with these people regardeless of distance, just using some anonimous p2p net! Gain their experience, coordinate your actions at almoust any place and any time. With each passing day more and more people connect to the Internet, their channels improve so as their computer and net proficiency. Such thing already happening. The Arab Spring, anyone? The Internet was shut down there after a time, did it really help them?
No.

So tech is HIGH. We can access the net form our mobile phone in a train going somewhere in the Siberian steppe, and gain new instructions or give order to the comrades, no need for funky helmets and costumes. Or, on the contrary, the capitalists can now blow up our asses with robot war planes...
And life if LOW for the majority of populations. Which provokes them to change the situation. Not Obama-like, Lenin-like. Some countries are or soon (by "soon" I mean like 10 years, probably 15, or 5 if shit happens) will be in a desperate need of cyber-Lenin to use the potential the information age offers us for igniting, spreading and directing a revolution.


Though some thing just don't change. Lumpen proles are still lumpen, even if they wear black coats, iroques and carry a book of Gibson on their reader.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Key word being hallucinogens.

[Avanti]

if you want, i can start a discussion about technoshamanism

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

we humans are stuck in the third dimension. only through psychedelic drugs or psychosis can we contact the other levels, both the lower and the higher astral spheres. that's why i believe. now i'm no hippie, but i have been a frequent user of hallucinogens, and i've seen some pretty amazing things.

Hallucinogens are fascinating, but my experiences with magic mushrooms and LSD tell me that the "insights" one gets while tripping are not based on external reality. Once during the handful of times I took LSD and the one time I took mushrooms, I became convinced that people I thought of as friends wanted to hurt or reject me. On acid I got the mistaken impression they were plotting against me, planning to humiliate me or worse. On mushrooms I got it into my head that my mates (a different set from the time I had LSD) were kicking me out of their house, forcing me to walk the 200 or so miles back home - when I started walking down the road, they asked me where the hell I was going. Turns out they just wanted to chill in the nearby fields.

Thankfully in the end I realised my mistake in both cases, and I still have those friends. Hallucinogens are not a window into reality. They are a window into one's own mind.

[Avanti]

but who says what's in your mind is entirely false, as opposed to "reality". isn't your mind a part of reality?

we have collectively derailed this thread. i suggest you summarise what you think i believe so i see if you have got me.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

but who says what's in your mind is entirely false, as opposed to "reality". isn't your mind a part of reality?

Yes, my mind is part of reality. But its power does not extend far beyond the human body it forms part of.


we have collectively derailed this thread. i suggest you summarise what you think i believe so i see if you have got me.

I don't like second-guessing people, because I hate being wrong. I'd rather hear it direct from yourself.

[Avanti]

well, i mean that cyberpunk is inevitable. the state has no reason to maintain public education or welfare systems any more. and people might whine but if it gradually is abolished, most of them adapt.

those who don't will die on the streets.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

well, i mean that cyberpunk is inevitable.

I don't think it is. We can fight it.


the state has no reason to maintain public education or welfare systems any more. and people might whine but if it gradually is abolished, most of them adapt.

those who don't will die on the streets.

You do realise that public education and welfare systems were formed in response to the inadequacies of capitalism? So what's to stop the same struggles being fought again?

[Avanti]

"austerity".

if you are nice, you can get an education voucher. or get a stipendiate so you can work as a clerk on a fast food restaurant.

[l'Enfermé]

if you want, i can start a discussion about technoshamanism
I would love a discussion on techno-shamanism and other types of shamanism, comrade.

[Avanti]

you're invited

[doesn't even make sense]

Reading too much William Gibson, rather.

Well at least it's not Neal Stephenson.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well at least it's not Neal Stephenson.

What's wrong with him? The Diamond Age has long been on my to-read list.

[Avanti]

the working class is dying. it will be replaced by machines.

by that point, traditional left-wing ideologies will have lost their rationale.

only neo-anarchism will be a viable option.

you need avanti.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

the working class is dying. it will be replaced by machines.

by that point, traditional left-wing ideologies will have lost their rationale.

Thing is, that hasn't actually happened yet, assuming it ever does happen. So long as the creation of genuine artificial intelligence remains an unsolved problem, there will always be a place for human labour and hence workerist ideologies.


only neo-anarchism will be a viable option.

you need avanti.

A new messiah
Another lie
A new messiah
To be denied!

[A Revolutionary Tool]

the working class is dying. it will be replaced by machines.

by that point, traditional left-wing ideologies will have lost their rationale.

only neo-anarchism will be a viable option.

you need avanti.

It's funny when people claim the working class is dying. There are more proletarians in this world right now than at any other point in history and more and more proletarians everyday. Is the class getting smaller and obsolete even in America? I don't see how, contrary to a lot of people's opinions there is a whole lot of shit produced in America.

[Avanti]

avanti lives within all of you.

having said that, what you think would happen when robots will replace telephone salespersons, accountants at stores, cleaners, gardeners, nurses and similar. maybe even the policemen would be starting to be replaced by drones.

by that point, the working class will be screwed. most industrial jobs are already disappearing.

and the service sector jobs will go down the drain too.

it will be like england in the 1980s, only a hundred times worse.

and from the ashes, Cyberpunk Capitalism will arise. two realities. one for the elite. one for the masses.

and don't say people will be reeducated to perform administrative tasks. there are things like stupidity and thresholds. most people are not adapted to administration. some are even too stupid and unruly to hold simple jobs (like myself).

[Avanti]

It's funny when people claim the working class is dying. There are more proletarians in this world right now than at any other point in history and more and more proletarians everyday. Is the class getting smaller and obsolete even in America? I don't see how, contrary to a lot of people's opinions there is a whole lot of shit produced in America.

so that's why industrial production has not yet returned to 2008 levels in usa?

and never will.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Industrial production may not return to 2008 levels in the USA because of the shift in production to China. Neoliberalism is alive and well, it is just moving to where labor cost are lower.

[Avanti]

and in china, foxconn is replacing live workers with robots. china is also automatising.

in 2030, the only place where they will have actual industrial production would be africa.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

avanti lives within all of you.

having said that, what you think would happen when robots will replace telephone salespersons, accountants at stores, cleaners, gardeners, nurses and similar. maybe even the policemen would be starting to be replaced by drones.

by that point, the working class will be screwed. most industrial jobs are already disappearing.

and the service sector jobs will go down the drain too.

it will be like england in the 1980s, only a hundred times worse.

and from the ashes, Cyberpunk Capitalism will arise. two realities. one for the elite. one for the masses.

and don't say people will be reeducated to perform administrative tasks. there are things like stupidity and thresholds. most people are not adapted to administration. some are even too stupid and unruly to hold simple jobs (like myself).

In order for robots to replace humans in the roles you mention, the hard problem of how to build machines capable of intelligence on a human level will need to be solved. Then, the technology required to do that needs to be cheaper than hiring a human being. Then, it needs to be Friendly otherwise all humans are potentially at risk (see the link in my sig for more).


so that's why industrial production has not yet returned to 2008 levels in usa?

and never will.

The USA is not the world.

[Avanti]

well, they are replacing the accountants with computers where i live. around 20 jobs down the drain in just my neighborhood. now there are thousands of unemployed people battling for 50 jobs.

i know.

i see them every week at the unemployment office.

hollow-eyed depressed people who have been crushed.

they blame themselves.

they will wither. only the strong will survive.

[Geiseric]

One question: Will weed be legalized? If so than i'm down with this whole neo anarchist dystopic matrix thing.

This sounds like it was plagarized from blade runner though, I saw alot of similarities in the 1st page.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Avanti's ideal society:

edit: pulled down until i hear the mods go ahead (I've made enemies due to opening the flood gates of madness, and I've heard rumors that this site loves a good purge when it fears it has lost control)

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

well, they are replacing the accountants with computers where i live. around 20 jobs down the drain in just my neighborhood. now there are thousands of unemployed people battling for 50 jobs.

i know.

i see them every week at the unemployment office.

hollow-eyed depressed people who have been crushed.

they blame themselves.

they will wither. only the strong will survive.

Well, I haven't let the bastards get me down yet. I don't consider myself particularly "strong". But there are people more vulnerable than I am, and that concerns me.

Also:

AI-complete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI-complete)

[Avanti]

One question: Will weed be legalized? If so than i'm down with this whole neo anarchist dystopic matrix thing.

This sounds like it was plagarized from blade runner though, I saw alot of similarities in the 1st page.

there will be no laws... they'll lose all meaning when the cities fall down into chaos and the rulers retreat into their fortresses of glass. so you can smoke weed, have as much sex as you like, steal and loot. but you have to survive.

that's why we need to organise into NeoTribes.

blade runner was a precursor. now we're entering the real thing.

Cyberpunk is not my ideal society, but i'm doing the best from a bad situation.

don't blame me.

blame capitalism.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

there will be no laws... they'll lose all meaning when the cities fall down into chaos and the rulers retreat into their fortresses of glass. so you can smoke weed, have as much sex as you like, steal and loot. but you have to survive.

that's why we need to organise into NeoTribes.

blade runner was a precursor. now we're entering the real thing.

Cyberpunk is not my ideal society, but i'm doing the best from a bad situation.

don't blame me.

blame capitalism.

The ruling classes aren't that alienated yet. They seem to be still interested in their swanky homes in the posh parts of London. Nuking London would do terrible things to property prices, you know.

[Avanti]

i wonder what you'll say the day they come to demolish your neighborhood without warning?

or when they cut the electricity?

or when the prices of clinic visits skyrocket?

or when they come for you?

best way to survive in the new world is to burn all your identity cards and always use cash. your name should not be listed on any address, and you need to cooperate with small groups.

those best equipped to handle Cyberpunk will be the criminals, outsiders, homeless and hobos. and travellers.

the rest are pretty much fucked.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

i wonder what you'll say the day they come to demolish your neighborhood without warning?

"Bugger!"

But seriously, why would they do that?

[Avanti]

they regularly do that in third world countries.

as a form of pest control.

from the elite point of view.

recently, they did that in detroit, leaving thousands of poors homeless.

it will happen to your town next.

do you feel lucky?

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

"Bugger!"

But seriously, why would they do that?

It's more likely that the man would go full on eugenics mode in lieu of letting their back yard go to horse shit

[Yuppie Grinder]

Avanti belongs in a video game.

[Avanti]

It's more likely that the man would go full on eugenics mode in lieu of letting their back yard go to horse shit

that'll cost too much.

they just try to make the life harder for us.

them bastards.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Remember to take the lift when you hit the ShinRa building.

nah dude if you take the stares you miss a ton of guards and get extra items

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Sorry for going off topic but somebody please tell Avanti to stop liking every God damned post please!

[Lynx]

Will we lose our internet and be unable to post at RevLeft?

:crying:

[Avanti]

Will we lose our internet and be unable to post at RevLeft?

:crying:

they will get new laws

that makes internet sterile like a shopping mall for paris hilton and prince michael jackson.

forums will cost 10,000 $ to put up

and forum moderators will be taught by police how to spot "radicals"

all of that is actual plans by the european union

it is true

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

they regularly do that in third world countries.

as a form of pest control.

from the elite point of view.

recently, they did that in detroit, leaving thousands of poors homeless.

it will happen to your town next.

do you feel lucky?

My town is nowhere near as bad as Detroit. In fact a couple of new developments have been completed since I moved here.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

they will get new laws

that makes internet sterile like a shopping mall for paris hilton and prince michael jackson.

forums will cost 10,000 $ to put up

and forum moderators will be taught by police how to spot "radicals"

all of that is actual plans by the european union

it is true

Link the evidence please.

[Avanti]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/babylon-striking-against-t176415/index.html?goto=newpost

whu's the man?

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/babylon-striking-against-t176415/index.html?goto=newpost

whu's the man?

You spelled who wrong. Has the document been verified?

[Avanti]

it's an official pdf from the firm contracted by the commission.

it was u who spelled whu wrong.

[Raúl Duke]

we humans are stuck in the third dimension. only through psychedelic drugs or psychosis can we contact the other levels, both the lower and the higher astral spheres. that's why i believe. now i'm no hippie, but i have been a frequent user of hallucinogens, and i've seen some pretty amazing things.

I've taken some hallucinogens, I've seen some pretty amazing things...
But I'm very skeptical if they're like some sort of "portal" to another plane or reality.

What the fuck is techno-shamanism tho?

Assuming there's a cyber punk future...
I think it will at the soonest happen (in a completed, fait accompli, sense) when I'm already quite old/retired/probably recently dead.

[Avanti]

it's happening now, slowly.

neoliberalism died in 2008.

austerity heralds Cyberpunk.

it can take decades. it can take weeks.

it all depends on the markets.

many millions of people in the first world are living in Cyberpunk already.

entire cities in the usa are Cyberpunk cities.

half of chicago, and detroit.

if you want to have spiritual enlightenment.

you have to join my neo-anarchist group.

[Geiseric]

I wonder if this will all end with Avanti selling whoever goes to the neo anarchist group fake survival gadgets for exorbant prices? This is a photon inhibitor. This is a Quantum core equalizer. I don't think though that class conflict will end untill there is nearly automaton that can operate the economy with the minimum amount of human help. And that simply isn't the case untill things like buses, mining, building, and specialized labor can all be done by machines instead of humans. This happened in a big boom from 1700 to the 1900s, but the problem we're having is that we have all of this new technology and it isn't going to benefit society, it's being used for profit. The profit levels as they are, without robotics, are enough for the capitalists to stop pushing funding into new technology. It's kind of like why we don't use hemp instead of trees and other natural resources.

So basically if we want anything above modern factories, and modern productive methods, we need to get rid of the decaying economic system which is inefficient, but the genious of capitalism is that you can make money off inefficiency, as long as the competitors are doing the same inefficient stuff as you. So if we want to create automaton, we need to take the motive of profit out of the equation, because you can't steal labor value or sell anything to robots.

[Rafiq]

Is this a joke thread? Avanti, what the fuck is wrong with you?

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Foolish reactionaries! Do not question Anarchism as illuminated by glorious Marxist-Avanti Thought!

[Jimmie Higgins]

the working class is dying. it will be replaced by machines.

by that point, traditional left-wing ideologies will have lost their rationale.
This couldn't happen within the capitalist system, commodified labor in some area of the economy needs to happen - fully mechanized labor, would require a different kind of system because it would accelerate the falling rates of profits and cause the economy to collapse.

Not to mention that human agency would probably mean that workers would resist the process the entire time. And the dynamics of mechnaization means that fewer workers have more control over larger areas of production, which would put them at very vulnerable points in the system.

Fully mechanized production would be one of the things capitalism actually creates its own barriers to and diverts the development of. It would require a system without competition and exploitation to benefit anyone more than in a very short-term.

[Geiseric]

I like how we seriously answered and debunked this super vague and probably troll theory.

[Yuppie Grinder]

This couldn't happen within the capitalist system, commodified labor in some area of the economy needs to happen - fully mechanized labor, would require a different kind of system because it would accelerate the falling rates of profits and cause the economy to collapse.

Not to mention that human agency would probably mean that workers would resist the process the entire time. And the dynamics of mechnaization means that fewer workers have more control over larger areas of production, which would put them at very vulnerable points in the system.

Fully mechanized production would be one of the things capitalism actually creates its own barriers to and diverts the development of. It would require a system without competition and exploitation to benefit anyone more than in a very short-term.

Sorry but reality is actually the product of our thought patterns so you're materialist argument is bullshit
homework and 10:30 curfews are the problem with capitalism, anarcho-teenagerism is the answer kthxbai

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Sorry but reality is actually the product of our thought patterns so you're materialist argument is bullshit
homework and 10:30 curfews are the problem with capitalism, anarcho-teenagerism is the answer kthxbai

wut

[Ele'ill]

oh my god there's five pages of this

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

oh my god there's five pages of this

Look, even if this person is some kind of troll or leg-pull, I still think there is value in dissecting their statements. It's not like people don't take even stranger shit seriously.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Look, even if this person is some kind of troll or leg-pull, I still think there is value in dissecting their statements. It's not like people don't take even stranger shit seriously.

True, and it has been an interesting exhcange.

But since this is sort of a free-wheeling discussion that doesn't seem to have a focus on Economics, I'm moving this thread to the Non-Political subforum.

[Ele'ill]

Look, even if this person is some kind of troll or leg-pull, I still think there is value in dissecting their statements. It's not like people don't take even stranger shit seriously.

Look, I approved their first moderated posts on the forum.

[Yuppie Grinder]

oh my god there's five pages of this

Enlightening, isn't it?

[Ele'ill]

Enlightening, isn't it?

refreshing

[Avanti]

look

the only way to stop automation from running it's course

is if the state strengthens

it cannot

due to globalism

it can only slow the process, when slightly less right-wing governments are in power

leftists are conservatives now

it is reactionary to want to stop Cyberpunk

Cyberpunk will eventually lead to communism

automation will come

after the next crisis, standard unemployment will be 12% in the west

prepare for a ride

[Avanti]

I wonder if this will all end with Avanti selling whoever goes to the neo anarchist group fake survival gadgets for exorbant prices?

This is a photon inhibitor. This is a Quantum core equalizer.

i am not a survivalist

i am an anarcho-survivalist

we need a combination of low-tech and medium-tech

slingshots, clubs, machetes, pepper spray, anti-rape spray, acid, spray cans, spears, guns, rpg's.

but that's not what we need to most.

we need to stop existing.

leave your house or your parents house. go out on the streets.

live in the concrete jungle. be the concrete jungle.

team up with other lost children.

greet the sun. love the day. make love to a beautiful person.

tag your hood. pierce your nose. listen to stomping music. take drugs.

build illegal gardens.

organize your communities.

go without shoes.

make revolutionary poetry.

form small close-knit kinships.

be like hunter-gatherers, but with space-tech.

be free.

the avanti shows the way.

[Jimmie Higgins]

i am not a survivalist

i am an anarcho-survivalist

we need a combination of low-tech and medium-tech

slingshots, clubs, machetes, pepper spray, anti-rape spray, acid, spray cans, spears, guns, rpg's.

but that's not what we need to most.

we need to stop existing.

leave your house or your parents house. go out on the streets.

live in the concrete jungle. be the concrete jungle.

team up with other lost children.

greet the sun. love the day. make love to a beautiful person.

tag your hood. pierce your nose. listen to stomping music. take drugs.

build illegal gardens.

organize your communities.

go without shoes.

make revolutionary poetry.

form small close-knit kinships.

be like hunter-gatherers, but with space-tech.

be free.

the avanti shows the way.This is a lot of hyperbolic language used to express some pretty low expectations IMO. I mean this is basically how Bay Area yuppie hipsters live now - just with fixies and moustaches thrown in - is this the extent of what we can hope to have?

Almost everything on this list is fun (though I like wearing shoes) and some could be personally liberating for some with the financial means to live that way...

but only this is liberating in the revolutionary sense:

organize your communities.

[Avanti]

yes, i agree.

but you can't organize them unless you have attractive aesthetics, a culture and a myth which you create together. otherwise, as soon as they win their first victories, they'll jump back into the arms of standard society.

we need to disintegrate people from the machine.

[Jimmie Higgins]

yes, i agree.

but you can't organize them unless you have attractive aesthetics, a culture and a myth which you create together. otherwise, as soon as they win their first victories, they'll jump back into the arms of standard society.

we need to disintegrate people from the machine.Agreed, but I tend to see this as something that arises organically out of movements, not really preceeding them.

I don't want people to radicalize or begin to take revolutionary ideas seriously because we have myths, nice marketing or some fun things to do or "charismatic figures" but because people are looking for ways to fight for themselves as a class.

Subcultures are something I'm a fan of - (rebel) youth subcultures - but they are inherently limiting because there are no "worker" or "revolutionary" aestetics or tastes that are universal - and it would be terrible and artificial if folks tried to make them universal (socialist realism).

But what workers who are into punk music, psycadellics, uppers, side-shows, fixies, boxing, movies, hip hop, or country have in common is class interestes: the need, ultimately, to be free from exploitation, alienation, and class rule and the state which facilitates this.

As I see it, the universal revolution based on this commonality and class solidarity will then free culture to exist on it's own idealistic and fluid and aestetic terms. No longer commodified, used in propaganda for ideology or ads. Free from class divisions people will likely group around shared passtimes and aestetics; passionately debate the archetectural style of new proposed buildings, organize themselves along countless preferences. And without class divisions none of it will matter, none of it will be life and death - poverty or prosparity. Art and culture will be things by themselves and exist on their own logic rather than the needs of rulers or profits.

Until then any cultre we create can be appropriated - just look at all the faux-Emmery Douglas art in advertising, the May 68 and Constructiuvist techniques used in Vodka Ads, the use of graffiti as "viral marketing".

[Avanti]

yes, that is why we shouldn't create a movement but many movements.

we should have millions of NeoTribes, with their own myths, songs, traditions.

hunter-gatherers in the urban jungle.

they should develop organically.

they should first strive to survive. then surround the gated communities, occupying space.

at the end, the state-corporate-industrial complex of Babylon will only control small strategic choke points.

then we'll surround them.

then we'll flood one choke point after another.

until we dominate the earth.

and then we'll create communism.

[Yuppie Grinder]

yes, that is why we shouldn't create a movement but many movements.

we should have millions of NeoTribes, with their own myths, songs, traditions.

hunter-gatherers in the urban jungle.

they should develop organically.

they should first strive to survive. then surround the gated communities, occupying space.

at the end, the state-corporate-industrial complex of Babylon will only control small strategic choke points.

then we'll surround them.

then we'll flood one choke point after another.

until we dominate the earth.

and then we'll create communism.

i buy it
where can i sign up for one of these neotribes?

[Avanti]

you're invited.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Look, I approved their first moderated posts on the forum.

I didn't know that. I (mis?)read you as being slightly exasperated.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

yes, that is why we shouldn't create a movement but many movements.

we should have millions of NeoTribes, with their own myths, songs, traditions.

hunter-gatherers in the urban jungle.

they should develop organically.

they should first strive to survive. then surround the gated communities, occupying space.

at the end, the state-corporate-industrial complex of Babylon will only control small strategic choke points.

then we'll surround them.

then we'll flood one choke point after another.

until we dominate the earth.

and then we'll create communism.


1. What?

2. How would you unite the neotribes enough for communism? (seeing as though the world would be plunged into chaos) I get the whole withering of the state ideal, but your description seems to be what would happen if an asteroid struck 20 years into it.

[Geiseric]

So it would be like robocop?

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

So it would be like robocop?

Mixed with this
http://cinefantastiqueonline.com/wp-content/uploads/road.jpg
now that the thread's been moved, can i now post pics?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Some of it reminds of the world as depicted in The Quatermass Conclusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quatermass_%28TV_serial%29), which I highly recommend digging around on YouTube to watch in its original serial format.

The earlier Quatermass serials are also worth watching. Proof positive that decent science fiction can be done very well on television with low budgets and primitive special effects.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Oh shit we forgot to include aliens and lizard people in the equation. Back to the drawing board!

[Ele'ill]

I didn't know that. I (mis?)read you as being slightly exasperated.

no you read that right but I was actually referring to most of the responses

[Yuppie Grinder]

Avanti what is your stance on the illuminati and our zionist reptilian overlords

[Yuppie Grinder]

So it would be like robocop?

Detroit pretty much already is robocop except with less robots and red forman shooting people in the face.

[Avanti]

1. What?

2. How would you unite the neotribes enough for communism? (seeing as though the world would be plunged into chaos) I get the whole withering of the state ideal, but your description seems to be what would happen if an asteroid struck 20 years into it.

they shouldn't be united and mount a strike the first they do. then they'll fail.

no, first each NeoTribe would need a territory to tag. it can be a neighborhood or a city district. then they must secure food and energy, and then survive until they are self-perpetuating.

then they can start making alliances.

anarcho-primitivists, rednecks, rejects, ravers, hiphoppers, a rainbow of tendencies.

all united for one goal - survival.

[Avanti]

Avanti what is your stance on the illuminati and our zionist reptilian overlords

i love the illuminati.

it's a brilliant concept.

it can reduce down all that's wrong with the world down to one word.

only problem is that the far right got it first.

we need an own word and own associations attached to that word.

bad associations.

[Yuppie Grinder]

As an anarchist, aren't you opposed to a world federated government of extrateristrial reptilians who spy on us from the moon which is actually a hollow artificial satellite?

[Avanti]

As an anarchist, aren't you opposed to a world federated government of extrateristrial reptilians who spy on us from the moon which is actually a hollow artificial satellite?

they are cool to oppose.

if they didn't exist, we'll have to invent them.

and that's what they are, an invention, a simple explanation of complex problems.

we need even simpler explanations.

the dumber the better.

the human brain is lingual and pre-lingual (symbolical)

most humans instinctively understand symbols

most don't understand political ideologies

and ideologies don't matter

only symbols do

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

they are cool to oppose.

if they didn't exist, we'll have to invent them.

and that's what they are, an invention, a simple explanation of complex problems.

we need even simpler explanations.

the dumber the better.

the human brain is lingual and pre-lingual (symbolical)

most humans instinctively understand symbols

most don't understand political ideologies

and ideologies don't matter

only symbols do
http://gifninja.com/animatedgifs/304980/mind-blown.gif

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

they are cool to oppose.

if they didn't exist, we'll have to invent them.

and that's what they are, an invention, a simple explanation of complex problems.

we need even simpler explanations.

the dumber the better.

the human brain is lingual and pre-lingual (symbolical)

most humans instinctively understand symbols

most don't understand political ideologies

and ideologies don't matter

only symbols do
I hope you realize that what you're preaching resembles the tactics of classical fascism. It is not an effective way to bring class consciousness to the workers. Appealing to their intelligence and taking part in their struggles in key, not their unconscious associations with "symbols".

[Avanti]

resembling is not the same as identical.

what workers will there be to "bring class consciousness" to when society fractures?

people will be too aware of their low status.

they need to attain new symbols and a new relationship with their surroundings.

NeoTribes can provide that.

anarcho-survivalism is the Q.

[hetz]

Avant, what about the issues of Autism, Aspergers and loneliness in that "society" you talk about?

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

will the life of the NeoTribe be like this?
:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWqJTKdznaM

[Avanti]

Avant, what about the issues of Autism, Aspergers and loneliness in that "society" you talk about?

autists and people with asperger's will be at an disadvantage.

unless they are good at hacking or programming.

people with adhd/add/damp and similar conditions will be at advantage.

there's nothing that can be done about that.

their relatives will look after them. if a mother carries a child with asperger's, the mother's NeoTribe will look after the child.

[Avanti]

will the life of the NeoTribe be like this?
:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWqJTKdznaM

more like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4JOiol-kzM

[hetz]

I don't even know why I watched that video.

[Avanti]

at a second thought

low-functioning autistics can actually become sages and leaders, who through technoshamanism can attach themselves to the collective consciousness of the NeoTribe and guide it towards new dumpsters to loot for food and gears.

[hetz]

6/10

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

What about the here and now? The future is yet unwritten, so who's to say that the working classes can't organise to stave off this future you describe?

[Avanti]

jersey shore.

paris hilton.

baby boo-boo.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Jersey Shore has brought forth the next great synthesist of Marxism-Leninism, Snookie. In the future she will rival the glorious Bob Avakian as an expositor of new synthesis-style Marxism-Leninism, Mao Tsetung Thought.:rolleyes:

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I'm not sure how serious this thread is at this point but...

One can talk all one wants about nomadic techno-hipster-shamans but the fact is we cannot escape the material conditions of production.Every society that has ever existed organizes itself in a specific way to wrest its living from nature.Despite all the talk about de-industrialization or post-fordism or whatever we still live in the age of industrial capitalism. The industrial base in the US has been eroded but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.Its simply been moved to China and other countries.

Any new society that emerges will need a material basis.The techno-nomads or whatever will need to make a living though pareticipation and contribution to the global economy. There can be no way around this.

In much of the world capitalism is not that different from the way it was in late 19th century Europe. Capitalism is in severe crisis and has no way out other than continued immiseration of the working class.

Technology can have a liberating effect but at this stage global society is still based on the imperative of the needs of the tiny elite to make a profit off our labor. Increased levels of technology now only occurs as part of the logic of capital accumulation.Increased automation can now put people out of work and further decrease living standards.

Not everyone can be a hacker or a hipster. The vast majority of people for example.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Another excellent post by Lenina Rosenweg. The more capitalism changes the more its essence remains the same.

[Avanti]

I'm not sure how serious this thread is at this point but...

One can talk all one wants about nomadic techno-hipster-shamans but the fact is we cannot escape the material conditions of production.Every society that has ever existed organizes itself in a specific way to wrest its living from nature.Despite all the talk about de-industrialization or post-fordism or whatever we still live in the age of industrial capitalism. The industrial base in the US has been eroded but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.Its simply been moved to China and other countries.

Any new society that emerges will need a material basis.The techno-nomads or whatever will need to make a living though pareticipation and contribution to the global economy. There can be no way around this.

In much of the world capitalism is not that different from the way it was in late 19th century Europe. Capitalism is in severe crisis and has no way out other than continued immiseration of the working class.

Technology can have a liberating effect but at this stage global society is still based on the imperative of the needs of the tiny elite to make a profit off our labor. Increased levels of technology now only occurs as part of the logic of capital accumulation.Increased automation can now put people out of work and further decrease living standards.

Not everyone can be a hacker or a hipster. The vast majority of people for example.

foxconn is replacing workers with machines.

unemployment will skyrocket.

millions of urban poors will be excluded from the global economy. billions of people will be excluded from it.

the wealthy will become even wealthier.

nomadism is not a lifestyle choice.

it will be a must.

Babylon will hunt the techno-nomads with drones.

but the flower children will win.

or lose. but when they lose, they'll lose so heroically it looks like they'll win.

myths are superior to theories.

stories are superior to history.

the mind defines reality.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

jersey shore.

paris hilton.

baby boo-boo.

Mindless pap ain't exactly a new thing, you know. Do you know what a "penny dreadful" is?

[Ele'ill]

foxconn is replacing workers with machines.

unemployment will skyrocket.

millions of urban poors will be excluded from the global economy. billions of people will be excluded from it.

the wealthy will become even wealthier.

nomadism is not a lifestyle choice.

it will be a must.

Babylon will hunt the techno-nomads with drones.

but the flower children will win.

or lose. but when they lose, they'll lose so heroically it looks like they'll win.

myths are superior to theories.

stories are superior to history.

the mind defines reality.




UuUornZS3jg

[Avanti]

Mindless pap ain't exactly a new thing, you know. Do you know what a "penny dreadful" is?

i have some working class and unemployed friends.

when they don't talk about finding a job, they talk about reality tv and dogs and hospital visits and babies and their medications.

they won't start a revolution.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

foxconn is replacing workers with machines.

unemployment will skyrocket.

millions of urban poors will be excluded from the global economy. billions of people will be excluded from it.

the wealthy will become even wealthier.

nomadism is not a lifestyle choice.

it will be a must.

Babylon will hunt the techno-nomads with drones.

but the flower children will win.

or lose. but when they lose, they'll lose so heroically it looks like they'll win.

myths are superior to theories.

stories are superior to history.

the mind defines reality.

Very poetic and I almost wish I could agree. I am pretty sure though that when the "flower children" lose, it won't be so beautiful, it will be like Gaza right now.

I love William Gibson, especially the Neuromancer series, but what I got out of his stuff is more that there is no way out.His stories are not of collective action but more of an individual though wit carving out some niche in the labyrinth of the Machine.Indeed in Neuromancer he almost makes the machine look beautiful.

Chris Hedges is a mixed bag but I thought this was prescient.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/11/19-0

Code 46 seems to be the direction we are headed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_46

[GoddessCleoLover]

Some Italian guy once wrote some stuff about how a national-popular culture conditions folks to accept the status quo.;)

[Yuppie Grinder]

foxconn is replacing workers with machines.

unemployment will skyrocket.

millions of urban poors will be excluded from the global economy. billions of people will be excluded from it.

the wealthy will become even wealthier.

nomadism is not a lifestyle choice.

it will be a must.

Babylon will hunt the techno-nomads with drones.

but the flower children will win.

or lose. but when they lose, they'll lose so heroically it looks like they'll win.

myths are superior to theories.

stories are superior to history.

the mind defines reality.

Anyone who describes themselves as a flower child should be deported to the moon.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

i have some working class and unemployed friends.

when they don't talk about finding a job, they talk about reality tv and dogs and hospital visits and babies and their medications.

they won't start a revolution.

What makes you think that:

A) Your peers are a representative sample, and

B) Their current attitudes will remain the same if things get worse for them?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Anyone who describes themselves as a flower child should be deported to the moon.

Bugger off, I've already earmarked the Moon as a new home once I become posthuman. ;)

[Avanti]

gaza right now is both horrifying and beautiful.

what is gaza today will in the future be the reality in slums world-wide.

gaza is a practicing ground.

drones will soon patrol us skies.

but we will run barefoot on decrepit roofs, watch the sunsets over the urban landscape as we prowl over to the more wealthy areas to steal food and supplies.

and the machine is beautiful.

the struggle between the monkeys and the robots will determine the future.

you cannot choose what side you're with.

either you're with the dreamers, or with the machine.

http://www.thisblogrules.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/robot-monkey-autumn.jpg

[Yuppie Grinder]

Bugger off, I've already earmarked the Moon as a new home once I become posthuman. ;)

Yea the moon is actually way to cool to send the hippies to. They can go to pluto.

[Avanti]

Some Italian guy once wrote some stuff about how a national-popular culture conditions folks to accept the status quo.;)

we must break all cultures.

[GoddessCleoLover]

I must confess to feelings of jealousy towards Avanti. He must have a connection to score some really great acid.:D

[Yuppie Grinder]

we must break all cultures.

earlier in this thread you said we must have many different subcultural movements
you're contradicting yourself

[Ele'ill]

there will be vast stretches of cities, fallen completely into decay and melding into natural landscapes that have begun rising up from the rib cage of our former society, that will be unsafe for anything other than their drones to pass over at several thousand feet

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'll take a third option. One involving both humans, as well as machines that can dream, working together to build a better universe for all sapient beings.

Dystopia may be more interesting to read about than Eutopia, but I sure as shit know which one I'd prefer to actually live in.

[Avanti]

I must confess to feelings of jealousy towards Avanti. He must have a connection to score some really great acid.:D

you too can become avanti.

avanti lives within all of you.

the education system and the adults want to take avanti out of you.

but the avanti will always be with you, if you have faith.

[Avanti]

there will be vast stretches of cities, fallen completely into decay and melding into natural landscapes that have begun rising up from the rib cage of our former society, that will be unsafe for anything other than their drones to pass over at several thousand feet

yes.

it's from there we can retake the world.

and make the impossible possible.

[Avanti]

I'll take a third option. One involving both humans, as well as machines that can dream, working together to build a better universe for all sapient beings.

Dystopia may be more interesting to read about than Eutopia, but I sure as shit know which one I'd prefer to actually live in.

i wouldn't either.

but that is what'll happen.

i am all for a mixture between transhumanism and anarcho-primitivism.

machines turning the world into a garden.

humans running around naked like children, rolling around in the grass and playing hide-and-seek, total love and anarchy, no rulers and unlimited freedom - so much freedom that individuality won't exist any more and everyone would exist forever in a state of eternal bliss.

but Babylon disagrees.

they want to be worshipped like gods.

by humans or machines don't matter.

we must survive.

we want to live.

[Ele'ill]

i wouldn't either.

but that is what'll happen.

i am all for a mixture between transhumanism and anarcho-primitivism.

machines turning the world into a garden.

humans running around naked like children, rolling around in the grass and playing hide-and-seek, total love and anarchy, no rulers and unlimited freedom - so much freedom that individuality won't exist any more and everyone would exist forever in a state of eternal bliss.

but Babylon disagrees.

they want to be worshipped like gods.

by humans or machines don't matter.

we must survive.

we want to live.

You haven't mentioned anything about primitivism though. This is all post-civ

[Avanti]

Cyberpunk is a collapsed civilization, but not a post-civilization.

i used to be an anarcho-primitivist/green anarchist in the early 2000s (was involved in the pangea project)

but we can achieve the same state of mind in modern societies, if we break away from the machine

and the machine is throwing more and more of us out in the cold

because it doesn't need us

therefore, we'll have no choice but to rediscover who we are

farming is no option when monsanto controls food production

only small-scale, illegal urban farming is possible

the rest of the food must be secured with dumpster diving and looting.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Frankly I don't think what you call Babylon has got what it takes to become anything other than a period of history. The god-kings of ancient Egypt are no more. The divine right of kings is in the trashcan of history, where it rightfully belongs. Both of those held far more sway over their subjects than the rulers of today, yet they have passed on as a result of class struggles.

[Avanti]

read some elite publications

like the economist

they openly state that leaders are smarter and superior than most people

they talk about "the elite" as something positive

the ceo's are sitting on the top of the skyscrapers

Babylon is a mental-spiritual-allegorical construction

the state-corporate-financial complex spanning the globe

oppressing us all

break free

don't interpret everything literally

allegory is the most wonderful thing about being human

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

read some elite publications

like the economist

they openly state that leaders are smarter and superior than most people

they talk about "the elite" as something positive

the ceo's are sitting on the top of the skyscrapers

Babylon is a mental-spiritual-allegorical construction

the state-corporate-financial complex spanning the globe

oppressing us all

Yes, I know that is what you meant by "Babylon". Just because those shiny-suited pricks think that they're elite and indispensable doesn't mean it's actually the case. For one thing, without us to grow and prepare their food then all the dollars and shiny baubles in the world won't prevent them from starving.


break free

don't interpret everything literally

allegory is the most wonderful thing about being human

No, the most wonderful thing about being human is our capacity to mould our environment, rather than just having our environment mould us. We don't take shit from nature lying down.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

What the Fuck happened here? (sorry for opening the floodgates of madness:()

[Avanti]

it was i who opened them.

and i am proud of that.

so much anger, hope, joy and laughter.

just from one thread.

all this from one avanti.

join me.

if one avanti can create this.

imagine what a hundred can.

[Avanti]

Yes, I know that is what you meant by "Babylon". Just because those shiny-suited pricks think that they're elite and indispensable doesn't mean it's actually the case. For one thing, without us to grow and prepare their food then all the dollars and shiny baubles in the world won't prevent them from starving.

No, the most wonderful thing about being human is our capacity to mould our environment, rather than just having our environment mould us. We don't take shit from nature lying down.

they aren't.

but neither are we.

and they control the capital to monopolise our food. so we beg them to let us have a shitty job. beg them to fuck us in the ass in returns of pennies.

and now they throw us away.

they don't need the workers.

they need engineers, programmers, consultants, an inflated middle class.

we'll on our own.

"moulding our environment?"

when you mould our environment, maybe you mould us too?

the rise of industrialism was also the rise of industrial mass-produced humans.

communism will never arise from that caricature of a human.

a real human is free.

not indoctrinated.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

it was i who opened them.

and i am proud of that.

so much anger, hope, joy and laughter.

just from one thread.

all this from one avanti.

join me.

if one avanti can create this.

imagine what a hundred can.

No I am your creator

using hands you cannot see

permitting you entrance here

when i embraced hilarity.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

they aren't.

but neither are we.

and they control the capital to monopolise our food. so we beg them to let us have a shitty job. beg them to fuck us in the ass in returns of pennies.

Who's actually growing the food, though? It's us. If enough of us get organised, we can get at them through their stomachs.


and now they throw us away.

they don't need the workers.

they need engineers, programmers, consultants, an inflated middle class.

Then why are they doing their damnedest to destroy the middle class? The reason we have one in the first place is because of things like universal education, public amenities, and a social safety net. If they destroy those things then they also destroy the middle class, and with it the entire economic basis of their lifestyle.


we'll on our own.

"moulding our environment?"

when you mould our environment, maybe you mould us too?

the rise of industrialism was also the rise of industrial mass-produced humans.

communism will never arise from that caricature of a human.

a real human is free.

not indoctrinated.

Oh, come on. Once upon a time, the island I live upon was populated mostly by superstitious, illiterate peasants, but where are they now?

[Avanti]

the middle class can pay for it's own education and healthcare through vouchers.

many prefer that.

because that's more status and indicates they are travelling up to affluence.

that's already happening throughout europe.

and when most doctors and small businessfolks are on private vouchers.

they vote on phasing out the rest for private insurance.

[Avanti]

and you don't think people today are superstitious?

or literally illiterate?

because how can we analyse critically when the tools we're given are given us by the rulers, to become their puppets.

just look how the socialist states replicated and fetishised capitalist forms of production.

it's possible to get out of the matrix, but then you have to swallow the red pill.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

the middle class can pay for it's own education and healthcare through vouchers.

many prefer that.

because that's more status and indicates they are travelling up to affluence.

that's already happening throughout europe.

and when most doctors and small businessfolks are on private vouchers.

they vote on phasing out the rest for private insurance.

Vouchers and insurance can't replace social utilities because they aren't the same things. If they could then it would have happened already.


and you don't think people today are superstitious?

or literally illiterate?

I'm not saying that superstition or illiteracy are history, but they're certainly at the lowest they've ever been historically.


because how can we analyse critically when the tools we're given are given us by the rulers, to become their puppets.

just look how the socialist states replicated and fetishised capitalist forms of production.

it's possible to get out of the matrix, but then you have to swallow the red pill.

Tools may be intended for a specific purpose, but that doesn't mean they can't be adequately used for other functions. A hammer may be designed to drive nails into wood, but it can also be used as a weapon or a paperweight.

[Avanti]

Vouchers and insurance can't replace social utilities because they aren't the same things. If they could then it would have happened already.

the politicians don't dare to dismantle too fast.

they need to do it gradually.

like boiling living frogs.

[Raúl Duke]

I must confess to feelings of jealousy towards Avanti. He must have a connection to score some really great acid.:D

hahaha, I bet he'll be somewhat of an amusing trip if he were around during one of those outdoor camping acid trips I like to take.

His dystopian view is both very pessimistic yet very compelling in that it's very scifi-ish world where almost everyone can be a hero of some epic cyber-punk story, almost like a movie, as long as we go along with this techno-shaman, neo-tribe stuff.

[GoddessCleoLover]

I agree with Lenina Rosenweg that we are still living in the era of industrial capitalism. We have a skewed perspective in Europe and the USA. Anyone living in Chongqing in Sichuan province, Shanghai, Beijing or in southern China, what we used to call Canton, would see things differently. Industrial capitalism still exists. It just changed location in order to take advantage of lower wages and fewer fringe benefits.

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

resembling is not the same as identical.

what workers will there be to "bring class consciousness" to when society fractures?

people will be too aware of their low status.

they need to attain new symbols and a new relationship with their surroundings.

NeoTribes can provide that.

anarcho-survivalism is the Q.

Under what theory (I assume "anarcho-survivalism" has theories) do you expect there not to be workers during a capitalist crisis? I've seen you say this many times before, but I have never seen a shred of evidence to back it up other than your repetitive and phony prophet-like pronouncements. By this, I have in mind your presentation, as follows (all in lower case, as is your habit):

sentence a

sentence b

sentence c

sentence d

And so on and so forth. What's particularly irritating is that none of the sentences seem to be connected to one another, and so it gives me the urge to roll my eyes rather than take you seriously. Is writing a paragraph and elaborating your ideas really so difficult for you? You're essentially preaching...badly. Trying to sound profound does not actually mean that you are.

As for your "tactics", it's true that resembling does not mean it is automatically like the other. But the essential nature of fascist propaganda--to engage the emotions and "low status" (so to speak) of workers rather than their intelligence--is very much present in your assertions. This is reinforced when you insist on the use of "symbols" to reach a "new relationship with their surroundings". The NSDAP's use of what was called "Völkisch" ideology was precisely this, and it seized upon the disorientation and misery of both the workers and the petty-bourgeoisie alike. This is not to say that you are promoting fascism, but if you continue this theoretical path of appealing the the "lowest" instincts in the population, I will have to consider you politically bankrupt in this area.

[Ele'ill]

hahaha, I bet he'll be somewhat of an amusing trip if he were around during one of those outdoor camping acid trips I like to take.

His dystopian view is both very pessimistic yet very compelling in that it's very scifi-ish world where almost everyone can be a hero of some epic cyber-punk story, almost like a movie, as long as we go along with this techno-shaman, neo-tribe stuff.

don't you understand, there are no heroes, only us and what we do

[Jimmie Higgins]

Bugger off, I've already earmarked the Moon as a new home once I become posthuman. ;)And after the revolution I'd love to live like a flower child. Hmm, flower children and the moon...

How fucking awesome would it be to do LSD in moon-gravity! And stare at the earth for a change!

[Grenzer]

What is techno-shamanism?

[Avanti]

What is techno-shamanism?

i have posted a thread on it in my neo-anarchist group.

[Avanti]

Under what theory (I assume "anarcho-survivalism" has theories) do you expect there not to be workers during a capitalist crisis? I've seen you say this many times before, but I have never seen a shred of evidence to back it up other than your repetitive and phony prophet-like pronouncements. By this, I have in mind your presentation, as follows (all in lower case, as is your habit):

sentence a

sentence b

sentence c

sentence d

And so on and so forth. What's particularly irritating is that none of the sentences seem to be connected to one another, and so it gives me the urge to roll my eyes rather than take you seriously. Is writing a paragraph and elaborating your ideas really so difficult for you? You're essentially preaching...badly. Trying to sound profound does not actually mean that you are.

As for your "tactics", it's true that resembling does not mean it is automatically like the other. But the essential nature of fascist propaganda--to engage the emotions and "low status" (so to speak) of workers rather than their intelligence--is very much present in your assertions. This is reinforced when you insist on the use of "symbols" to reach a "new relationship with their surroundings". The NSDAP's use of what was called "Völkisch" ideology was precisely this, and it seized upon the disorientation and misery of both the workers and the petty-bourgeoisie alike. This is not to say that you are promoting fascism, but if you continue this theoretical path of appealing the the "lowest" instincts in the population, I will have to consider you politically bankrupt in this area.

politics are overrated.

action is what matters.

when society fractures, the artificial "political forum" dissolves.

in traditional left-wing policy.

academics have hijacked the masses to serve their goals.

the masses only have one interest.

they want to live.

they want to love.

they want to breathe.

they want to greet every new dawn.

you must ask yourself whether what you advocate would make people happier.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

i have posted a thread on it in my neo-anarchist group.

No i have posted a thread on technoshamanism. You may be inside me Avanti, but I am still your master


OBEY!

[Avanti]

you can only become a real anarchist

if you let your avanti free

free to roam the concrete jungle

to stomp in illegal underground raving parties

to wake up next to beautiful girls with rings in their noses and red dreads

to see the dawn from a roof top, while holding the hand of a beautiful emo boy

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

you can only become a real anarchist

if you let your avanti free

free to roam the concrete jungle

to stomp in illegal underground raving parties

to wake up next to beautiful girls with rings in their noses and red dreads

to see the dawn from a roof top, while holding the hand of a beautiful emo boy


So real anarchists

=

bisexuals?

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused:
thank God the spell's been broken.

[Avanti]

you yourself make your choices

bisexuality, homosexuality, heterosexuality are just labels

your body is not who you are

a fixation on the body

is a part of the mind prison

you choose your own path

do what makes you feel free

leap off the roof

spread your fingers

and fly through the neon cityscape

close your eyes

and you could be everywhere

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

you yourself make your choices

bisexuality, homosexuality, heterosexuality are just labels

your body is not who you are

a fixation on the body

is a part of the mind prison

you choose your own path

do what makes you feel free

leap off the roof

spread your fingers

and fly through the neon cityscape

close your eyes

and you could be everywhere

That sounds like someone on LSD accidentally killing themselves

[Avanti]

death is another lie

perpetuated by Babylon

check my latest thread

in the neo-anarchist group

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I've gotta join the neo-anarchist group. It seems I may literally be missing out on so much!

[Avanti]

ask

and you'll be given the keys

or rather the drill

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

I've gotta join the neo-anarchist group. It seems I may literally be missing out on so much!

Change the name to prepostcyberneticsubjectivemetarealitarianism

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Remember to put the meta before reality

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

you yourself make your choices

bisexuality, homosexuality, heterosexuality are just labels

Speaking as someone who is not only bisexual, but as someone who took a few years to realise that, I beg to differ. I never chose my sexuality.


your body is not who you are

Then what is? Once the body (which contains the brain and thus the mind) is destroyed, what is left?

[Avanti]

you choose if you should pursue your desires or not.

i am convinced

99% of all people are bisexual


Then what is? Once the body (which contains the brain and thus the mind) is destroyed, what is left?

you will know after midnight

when you can watch the film i sent to you

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

you choose if you should pursue your desires or not.

i am convinced

99% of all people are bisexual

Well, some scientist named Kinsey did some actual research, and it seems that human sexuality isn't divided up between isolated boxes - rather, it is a spectrum with near-total heterosexual behaviour on one end, near-total homosexual behaviour at the other end, and bisexuality as a fuzzily-defined region in between those two extremes.

[Avanti]

Well, some scientist named Kinsey did some actual research, and it seems that human sexuality isn't divided up between isolated boxes - rather, it is a spectrum with near-total heterosexual behaviour on one end, near-total homosexual behaviour at the other end, and bisexuality as a fuzzily-defined region in between those two extremes.

that's the topic for another thread

btw

i started an interesting topic in the queers group

but nobody's answered

you'll break the virginity, alright?

so we stop derail here, ok?

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

that's the topic for another thread

btw

i started an interesting topic in the queers group

but nobody's answered

you'll break the virginity, alright?

so we stop derail here, ok?

I don't think we were ever on the tracks

punctuation is the problem

Avanti is the answer

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

politics are overrated.

action is what matters.

when society fractures, the artificial "political forum" dissolves.

in traditional left-wing policy.

academics have hijacked the masses to serve their goals.

the masses only have one interest.

they want to live.

they want to love.

they want to breathe.

they want to greet every new dawn.

you must ask yourself whether what you advocate would make people happier.
You did not address a single thing I said, so I'm ducking out rather than endure this for much longer. Have fun speaking in silly lyrics.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

You did not address a single thing I said, so I'm ducking out rather than endure this for much longer. Have fun speaking in silly lyrics.

Avanti doesn't answer questions

She is a question

And the answer:lol: