Tuol Sleng prison - a place you didn't want to go to.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I first heard about this place while casually perusing the Guinness book of world records, something about Comrade Duch being the worst war criminal convicted in the 21st century or something. I looked up the prison he was a commander in and holy crap, you had better chances of surviving Buchenwald concentration camp!

Scary place, but interesting to read about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuol_Sleng_prison

[Grenzer]

Nos Cancerous, you're one of the best posters on this entire god damned forum.

Incidentally I just bought a few books on the Khmer Rouge, including one about this prison. Can't say much on the subject until I've had a chance to read it, but it's really fucking hard to get good books on the Khmer Rouge. They all seem to be sob stories and personal narratives. I want history, god damn it.

[Red Future]

The User 'Milk' used to post about the Khmer Rouge and Democratic Kampuchea , he had some great resources and a good website about his research too.Unfortunatley I don't think he is active on the forum anymore.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Yeah milk was a good poster, posted some interesting stuff about the KR. Tried finding his blog but couldn't....wasn't it called "eyes of the pineapple" or something? Hm.

[Grenzer]

The User 'Milk' used to post about the Khmer Rouge and Democratic Kampuchea , he had some great resources and a good website about his research too.Unfortunatley I don't think he is active on the forum anymore.

Not only that, his website seems to be down. Damn shame considering all the stuff that was on it.

[Robespierres Neck]

I recommend reading the book, Pol Pot Plans the Future: Confidential Leadership Documents from Democratic Kampuchea, 1976-1977. It's a great insight on Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Heard about that prison from a documentary years ago. Yeah, one fucking scary place that is for sure. Do not really know if it is worse than the concentration camps of WW2, since many camps I have heard had many equally horrifying policies, but it is abominable nonetheless.

[Hiero]

The article references this book Genocide In Cambodia: Documents From the Trial of Pol Pot and Ieng Sary (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=lu6Mj0A7CpYC&pg=PA375&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false). I don't much about the book or what reception it received from the wider community, it seems to contain documents, statements and letters from that period or just after. It detials some of the practices that occured at the prison. It provides alot of data, but very little analysis (at my first look). Might be worth checking out, as usual with wikipedia articles things are misquoted, changed or made into generalisations when the sources are bit more complex and specific.

Some of the big questions that come out of it for me is how a reasonably progresive move to end imperialism in Cambodia turned into a large gulag styled country and an extreme attempt to purge any so called 'counter revolutionary' elements whether real or imagined. By the end, if you read the DK documents, the idea of a revolutionary is just a mystical created entity. But also it was essentialist, from thoose readings if you did one thing in your life, many years ago, you were considered counter revolutionary. The other thing that runs through my head is there is probably alot of personal vendettas being played out in DK, where often low level peasants were put in charge and they went rampant with revenge against upper class peasants.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Actually, the urban residents who were forced to the countryside suffered disproportionately and were not really accepted by the rural population. One reason might have been that this influx of more than a million former city dwellers who lacked farming skills probably stressed the available food supply.

[Hiero]

Actually, the urban residents who were forced to the countryside suffered disproportionately and were not really accepted by the rural population. One reason might have been that this influx of more than a million former city dwellers who lacked farming skills probably stressed the available food supply.

In that book I mention above, it quotes how the state/party wanted to create industrial/working class towns in the countryside. That was also an error of Mao too, thinking you can industrialise a countryside in such a short period of time.

[erupt]

According to 100 Days In Photographs: Pivotal Events That Changed The World, by Nick Yapp with publishing and photograph help from GettyImages and National Geographic,


...one of seven survivors of Sleng prison, stands before pictures of some of the jails 16,000 political prisoners.

It may not be the most accurate statistics, and I cannot say what they really are because I have no idea; but, if it means there were 7/16,000 that lived, man they had to be some tough people and had to have been through the most unbelievable, unearthly shit imaginable.

Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge in general really put a giant fucking shit stain on the name of socialism because of their actions towards the peasants and proletarians of the country, their governmental policies, and Pol Pot's feudalistic tendencies, for lack of better terminology.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Wasn't it the same shit stain that Stalin put on socialism? The difference between Tuol Sleng and Kolyma is that the Khmer Rouge fell from power, thus revealing their crimes. Even after Stalin's death the Soviet authorities were loathe to admit the full scale of the horrors of Kolyma. Kolyma was a network of slave labor camps built in the depths of Siberia for the purpose of gold mining. Ironic, isn't it, that a M-L regime would be so obsessed with gold. Apparently some of the Kolyma camps were overwhelmed by the Siberian winters resulting in 100% casualties including the guards. Tuol Sleng was an extreme version of Kolyma, but both were a giant shit stain on the concept of socialism.

[erupt]

Wasn't it the same shit stain that Stalin put on socialism? The difference between Tuol Sleng and Kolyma is that the Khmer Rouge fell from power, thus revealing their crimes. Even after Stalin's death the Soviet authorities were loathe to admit the full scale of the horrors of Kolyma. Kolyma was a network of slave labor camps built in the depths of Siberia for the purpose of gold mining. Ironic, isn't it, that a M-L regime would be so obsessed with gold. Apparently some of the Kolyma camps were overwhelmed by the Siberian winters resulting in 100% casualties including the guards. Tuol Sleng was an extreme version of Kolyma, but both were a giant shit stain on the concept of socialism.

I'm pretty sure Stalin was getting carted around in a Rolls Royce around that period of time, which is just as ironic to me.

[Avanti]

revolution

demands a blood sacrifice

but

prisons

are anti-revolutionary

labour camps

are anti-revolutionary

violence

should be

a spontaneous act

a mystic act

a spiritual act

not the result

of bleak bureaucracy

but flaming revolutionary rage

[hetz]

Tuol Sleng was an extreme version of Kolyma, but both were a giant shit stain on the concept of socialism.
The GULAG was a network of work camps, T. Sleng was a death camp, one in many such camps and killing fields the K. Rouge used for mass, indiscriminate slaughter and extermination of Cambodian people.
I don't think you can compare the two like that.

I've heard of the Cambodian genocide, not the Siberian one.

[erupt]

The GULAG was a network of work camps, T. Sleng was a death camp, one in many such camps and killing fields the K. Rouge used for mass, indiscriminate slaughter and extermination of Cambodian people.
I don't think you can compare the two like that.

I've heard of the Cambodian genocide, not the Siberian one.

No disrespect, but just because everything you said is right, doesn't excuse the Soviets or the Khmer Rouge. The Gulags were "a network of work camps," but they weren't any place I'd have liked to been, either; basically, the name of the type of camp is meaningless. What goes on in and around the camps, no matter if they're Nazi death camps in Germany and Poland, Soviet work camps in Siberia, or Khmer Rouge death camps in Cambodia, is sickening.

[hetz]

What goes on in and around the camps, no matter if they're Nazi death camps in Germany and Poland, Soviet work camps in Siberia, or Khmer Rouge death camps in Cambodia, is sickening.
There's a very important difference between the Nazi camps and the Soviet GULAG system.
They had a different purpose.

[GoddessCleoLover]

There's a very important difference between the Nazi camps and the Soviet GULAG system.
They had a different purpose.

Within the GULAG network there were camps such as those in the Kolyma region of Siberia from which a small percentage emerged alive. Granted that the percentage was even lower at Tuol Sleng, but dead is dead whether one is shot at Tuol Sleng or is worked to death at Kolyma.

[hetz]

But they died out of hunger/cold/neglect.
Their deaths weren't a part of some organized mass extermination/genocide scheme.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Okay, I see your point, but Kolyma is still a horrible stain on the socialist movement.

[milk]

Yeah milk was a good poster, posted some interesting stuff about the KR. Tried finding his blog but couldn't....wasn't it called "eyes of the pineapple" or something? Hm.

I haven't been here for a while, have had stuff to do in meatspace. Family matters and work.

I had to finish my blog unfortunately. Copyright issues with the material I had posted there. A lot of of the digitised material I still have on a hard drive somewhere and can make available again, if needed.

Any questions about the Cambodian Communists, then shoot away.

[Prometeo liberado]

I thought the mention and pic of the waterboarding device on the wiki page were very ironic, dontcha think?

[MP5]

Ah yes ive read about the Khmer Rouge on and off quite abit so no wonder Tuol Sleng aka strychnine hill rung a bell. A friend of mine who taught in Cambodia for abit actually visited that and other camps that the Khmer Rouge had and she said it gave her a uneasy feeling to say the least. The only place that seems more brutal then that was unit 731 which makes any Nazi concentration camp look good frankly. I would rather down a quart of strychnine then get locked up in Tuol Sleng that's for sure.

The way that other human beings can treat each other is sickening. How the hell can you justify killing babies by beating them against a tree or beating people to death with iron bars in order to save bullets all in the name of Pol Pot's fucked up version of Agrarian Socialism which is a stupid ideology anyway. It still pisses me off when people use the Khmer Rouge as a example of how "evil" communism is. It shouldn't as it shows just how ignorant these people are as the Khmer Rouge was certainly not Communist or Marxist in any sense of the term. They even banned people from taking aspirin for god sakes because it was seen as decadent.

I should really stop reading about stuff like this when suffering from insomnia :(

[milk]

They weren't 'Agrarian Socialists.'

[Red Commissar]

They weren't 'Agrarian Socialists.'

This is something that gets brought up a lot- for all the criticisms I have of the Khmer Rouge I never understood why this one in particular keeps getting drummed in years later. I presume this is due to the way they had their campaigns to move the population to the countryside. Wikipedia even right off the bat says "The Khmer Rouge subjected Cambodia to a radical social reform process that was aimed at creating a purely agrarian-based Communist society.". I only bring wikipedia up because for better or worse it's where a lot of people go first for this kind of information.

I've always been under the impression that they were trying to create an agrarian base from which their industrial society be grown from.

[milk]

Yes, you are correct. With Cambodia being an overwhelmingly agricultural society the rural focus of the CPK was geared towards primitive capital accumulation, in order to fund a program of rapid industrialisation.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Yes, you are correct. With Cambodia being an overwhelmingly agricultural society the rural focus of the CPK was geared towards primitive capital accumulation, in order to fund a program of rapid industrialisation.

Any recommended reading?

[milk]

Pol Pot Plans the Future: Confidential Leadership Documents from Democratic Kampuchea, 1976-1977.

It includes the tentatively outlined Four-Year Plan to Build Socialism in All Fields, 1977–1980 (including light and heavy industry).

[MP5]

If the Khmer Rouge where not agarian socialists what were they? Everything Ive read on them seems to point towards a agrarian based butchering of socialism being the driving idea behind their mad ideology. They where not Marxists that's for sure and they sure as shit where not Anarchists.

Maybe they where just brutal thugs with no regard for human life at all. They are certainly up there with being one of the most brutal regimes of the 20th century. Only Nazi Germany and fascist Japan would even come close to the atrocities these brutes committed.

[Orange Juche]

Wikipedia even right off the bat says "The Khmer Rouge subjected Cambodia to a radical social reform process that was aimed at creating a purely agrarian-based Communist society.". I only bring wikipedia up because for better or worse it's where a lot of people go first for this kind of information.

I've always been under the impression that they were trying to create an agrarian base from which their industrial society be grown from.

We could continuously edit it, having a discussion on the "talk" page about why they're wrong.

[Geiseric]

Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge were funded by the CIA at times so no they weren't socialists. They were basically the result of Apocalypse Now style violence, with Pol being the ringleader who used socialism as an excuse for the fucked up things.

[Zostrianos]

Maybe they where just brutal thugs with no regard for human life at all. They are certainly up there with being one of the most brutal regimes of the 20th century. Only Nazi Germany and fascist Japan would even come close to the atrocities these brutes committed.

How anyone could even think of defending the Khmer Rouge (because they called themselves socialists) is beyond me. This is a regime that reduced its entire people to slavery. People would be killed for things like falling in love, anyone who had above average intelligence could be executed for being "bourgeois"; people were even killed merely because they wore glasses.
And yes, life under the Khmer Rouge was pretty much identical to that of eastern Europeans under the Nazis.

[Red Commissar]

If the Khmer Rouge where not agarian socialists what were they? Everything Ive read on them seems to point towards a agrarian based butchering of socialism being the driving idea behind their mad ideology. They where not Marxists that's for sure and they sure as shit where not Anarchists.

Maybe they where just brutal thugs with no regard for human life at all. They are certainly up there with being one of the most brutal regimes of the 20th century. Only Nazi Germany and fascist Japan would even come close to the atrocities these brutes committed.


How anyone could even think of defending the Khmer Rouge (because they called themselves socialists) is beyond me. This is a regime that reduced its entire people to slavery. People would be killed for things like falling in love, anyone who had above average intelligence could be executed for being "bourgeois"; people were even killed merely because they wore glasses.
And yes, life under the Khmer Rouge was pretty much identical to that of eastern Europeans under the Nazis.

I don't think anyone's calling them socialists or admiring them in any way. What's the problem here is calling them agrarian doesn't make sense. If we're going to start with criticizing them, then it should be on grounds that we actually knew what they stood for and the error of those positions.

milk provided some sources showing that the agrarian bit was inaccurate. Again, it helps to understand how and why the Khmer Rouge got popular- it was not as if they forced themselves on people. At first they had a degree of support, one that grew with US airstrikes on urban settlements and other such attacks. Of course when they went towards butchering accused enemies of the revolution, intellectuals, and all sorts of other people on trumped-up charges in massive numbers we saw the reality of the group. The Tuol Seng prison was hell on earth, but that wasn't related to them being agrarian socialists, but rather a group run on Pol Pot's narrow, demagogic, and self-serving objectives.

If anything the way the Khmer Rouge appealed to some idealized Khmer identity and for its "rebirth", something so inclusive it went into xenophobia territory (and indeed, something the Khmer Rouge pushed more later on), is of more concern than these inaccurate claims of being only an agrarian project.


We could continuously edit it, having a discussion on the "talk" page about why they're wrong.

Eh, tbh it's not worth the damage. You'd just get accused of supporting them at the end.


Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge were funded by the CIA at times so no they weren't socialists. They were basically the result of Apocalypse Now style violence, with Pol being the ringleader who used socialism as an excuse for the fucked up things.

It's important to point out that the CIA/US support only really began after their crimes in the late 70s. Before when the Khmer Rouge were part of the opposition against the pro-US Lon Nol regime, they were targeted by bombings and other attacks, and were still receiving aid from China, USSR, and Vietnam.

It's really great to stick in the face of rabid imperialist types that the US lined up behind the Khmer Rouge to prop them up against the Vietnam-backed People's Republic of Kampuchea, so much so that the US along with UK, France, and China continued to recognize the Khmer Rouge Democratic Kampuchea government as the rightful one (or more precisely the Khmer Rouge plus the monarchist Funcinpec and anti-communist Khmer People's National Liberation Front), retaining their seat in the UN.