Gangs

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

I know that gangs are mostly caused by poverty and greed, but you can't deny that the gang mentality can quickly grow a life of its own. How would you deal with segments of the proletariat population that act as cancers to society?

[GoddessCleoLover]

Do you mean lumpen proletarian?

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

I'm not completely familiar with that term.

edit: Yeah i guess.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Marx didn't like them very much, considered them irrelevant to the class struggle and impossible to organize. The Black Panther Party was an development on this part but they didn't end well either. I guess we could say that the "lumpen" question is still up in the air as to what kind of role they would play in any serious American uprising.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I know that gangs are mostly caused by poverty and greed, but you can't deny that the gang mentality can quickly grow a life of its own. How would you deal with segments of the proletariat population that act as cancers to society?

I think gangs tend to come out of a need for mutual protection from people who can't, for whatever reason, turn to "the authorities". So in many ways there's always been a sort of connection between organized crime and organized workers either revolutionary or trade-union.

Early US gangs were in immigrant communities and began as nepotism and protection organizations helping Irish or Chinese people who couldn't get work because of the oppression of these groups. "Protection" rackets also began as gangs offered other people protection from other gangs or even the official police force (who were/are often nothing more than legally sanctioned gangs).

Organized crime has also always had a connection to unions and so early Irish "secret societies" in the US sometime became sort of proto-unions or proto-mafias. Later organized crime was sometimes brought in to counter the influence of radicals in unions.

There's a documentary called "Bastards of the Party" which I highly recommend - I think it's streaming on Netflix. It goes into the connections between 60s radicalism and contemporary street-gangs. In LA the people who were involved in setting up the Panthers and some other black radical organizations had previously been parts of street-gangs (L.A. black gangs originally began in response to white gangs who enforced a de-facto segregation in working class Central LA).

So like with the gang members that became Panthers or the Young Lords, I think a section of gangs will actually be fighters for the revolution and when our class forces are large and organized enough to have an influence, I think this is something we should actively peruse. But other sections of the "lumpen prol" will be suseptable to being hired thugs for counter-revolution and the more successful ones will have an interest in maintaining a system that the benefit from. So that's why ultimately it all depends on how well we have been able to organize ourselves into a working class force capable of either pulling in non-proletarians to our side or being able to resist any physical attempts at breaking us - both from official sources as well as thugs who've been paid-off or convinced to side with reaction.

[Prometeo liberado]

Ignoring anything is always a bad idea. Ignoring a very important power dynamic within the working class is an even worse one. The very conditions of alienation and despair coupled with a chance at real comradely are very powerful to say the least yet speak volumes of our own infantile abilities at organizing let alone communicating. IMO.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

No matter what their roots were pretty much all contemporary gangs have lost their revolutionary flavors and groups such as MS 13, folk nations, la eme et al have gotten so deranged that at times i have to fight the wish to just cull the herd.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Ignoring anything is always a bad idea. Ignoring a very important power dynamic within the working class is an even worse one. The very conditions of alienation and despair coupled with a chance at real comradely are very powerful to say the least yet speak volumes of our own infantile abilities at organizing let alone communicating. IMO.

Let's not kid ourselves. If the revolution ever went anywhere, those bastards would be the first to burn in the fires of the purge.

[Os Cangaceiros]

No matter what their roots were pretty much all contemporary gangs have lost their revolutionary flavors and groups such as MS 13, folk nations, la eme et al have gotten so deranged that at times i have to fight the wish to just cull the herd.

I don't think that organized crime ever really had any revolutionary flavor. Groups like the Mafia (La Cosa Nostra) have always at best had a parasitic attachment to organized labor. Union members/activists who spoke out against Mafia involvement in their organizations (which often involved things like defrauding pension funds) were subject to serious assault or murder.

In other situations the relationship between labor and organized crime was one of clear-cut antagonism...Carlo Tresca was murdered on the orders of Vito Genovese, who in turn supposedly ordered the murder from Italy as a favor to Benito Mussolini (although it is true that, in general, Mussolini despised the Mafia and actively sought to crush them). The yakuza in Japan were often used during the 20's/30's to crush labor strikes. The Jewish mob in New York City had a history of being used to break strikes, etc. The list goes on.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Although supposedly Irish gangs in NYC during the mid 19th century used to extort money from local businesses for the sole purpose of throwing massive parties. I always thought that was pretty legit.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Irish massive parties= O'Reilly's drunk off their asses= pretty much all the irish pre/post 19th century:D

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Irish massive parties= O'Reilly's drunk off their asses= pretty much all the irish pre/post 19th century:D
Ethnic jokes? Really?

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Ethnic jokes? Really?

Grow a funny bone guy. Statistics show drunkenness was rife throughout poverty stricken Irish communities if you want to be serious about this.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Grow a funny bone guy.

Um, I'm not a guy. So, now we can add sexism by assuming others are male by default.


Statistics show drunkenness was rife throughout poverty stricken Irish communities if you want to be serious about this.
And that's supposed to be a source of amusement?

[Prometeo liberado]

Let's not kid ourselves. If the revolution ever went anywhere, those bastards would be the first to burn in the fires of the purge.

Yeah, that's my idea of revolution. Purging the future before it can happen.

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

There's some gangs at my school, Latin Kings mainly, Surenos, there's MS13 graffiti on the sidewalk. I hate them so fucking much, they're all so stupid.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Um, I'm not a guy. So, now we can add sexism by assuming others are male by default.


And that's supposed to be a source of amusement?

1. You want me to refer to you as it? I don't know if you're male or female, and frankly i don't care. I use guys in the same way ellos means them if its a mixed gender group (ex: come on guys)

2. It's not that big of a deal. The daily show was right; That's not funny John will rule the world someday.

Yeah, that's my idea of revolution. Purging the future before it can happen.

1. Fuck gangbangers- From the guy who actually knows gangbangers.

[Prometeo liberado]

1. Fuck gangbangers- From the guy who actually knows gangbangers.

Now you wanna play the prolier than thou game? It's a silly game to play and in this version I can honestly tell you that I come out the ahead. Yes really.

[o well this is ok I guess]

form a street gang and brawl

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

1. You want me to refer to you as it? I don't know if you're male or female, and frankly i don't care. I use guys in the same way ellos means them if its a mixed gender group (ex: come on guys)
You could have said "Grow a funny bone" or "Grow a funny bone, Danielle". And using "guys" for a mixed gender group is different than using "guy" for an individual.

[Skyhilist]

Um, I'm not a guy. So, now we can add sexism by assuming others are male by default.


And that's supposed to be a source of amusement?

Why so butthurt and PC? Come on, he's obviously not a sexist, he's just trying to joke around.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Why so butthurt and PC? Come on, he's obviously not a sexist, he's just trying to joke around.
This is a problem a lot of women experience online, where men just assume that they're communicating with other men by default. He could have just said "you're right, I shouldn't have made that assumption, my bad," and that would have been the end of it.

On a revolutionary board, of all places, you shouldn't accuse people of being "butthurt and PC" for calling attention to something like that. We learn from being challenged, and mistaken assumptions that are taken for granted within our societies should be challenged.

Also, "PC" is a right-wing term of derision used when leftists, feminists, anti-racists, etc. challenge the dominant paradigm in some way.

[Prometeo liberado]

Why so butthurt and PC? Come on, he's obviously not a sexist, he's just trying to joke around.

Maybe you just don't get it. You want systemic change, revolutionary change, an entirely new society yet can't get change started with the only thing under your control. You.

[Let's Get Free]

Self-destructive gang warfare tears apart communities, especially poor black and Latino communities. There is an external and internal crisis facing these communities. The external crisis is racism and colonialism, which works to systematically oppress us and is responsible for whatever internal crisis there is. The internal crisis is a result an environment where drugs and violence are rampant, and life is sometimes considered cheap. It will be impossible to unite the proletariat in these communities if they are in hatred and fear of one another.

The community, through its own organizations, will have to deal with the problem Community self-managed programs to work with youth gang members, rather than the military approach of calling the cops, empower the community, rather than the prison bureaucracy and the police.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I dunno guys, these fellas look fucking swag.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blekinge_Street_Gang

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Now you wanna play the prolier than thou game? It's a silly game to play and in this version I can honestly tell you that I come out the ahead. Yes really.

Fuck that, i lived for 6 months without electricity in my home and am about to be foreclosed on. I win:laugh:

[Prometeo liberado]

Fuck that, i lived for 6 months without electricity in my home and am about to be foreclosed on. I win:laugh:

I went 6 months and a day without a light bulb in my fridge. Try living with that kind of mayhem at 2 am. Goddamn Im just hungry and I cant see anything!

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

I went 6 months and a day without a light bulb in my fridge. Try living with that kind of mayhem at 2 am. Goddamn Im just hungry and I cant see anything!

My fridge hasn't had working lights since 2003! Victory!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Prometeo liberado]

My fridge hasn't had working lights since 2003! Victory!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I lied. I have no fridge, just conveniantly placed rocks that direct cool air towards my rotting food. And, for some pathetic reason my contact lenses are the darkened ones.

[Prometeo liberado]

I roam the streets shoeless and follow sickly birds around until they die and hope that they land in my mouth.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Trolling the troll, eh? I approve.

[Ravachol]

The category 'lumpen proletariat' makes no sense whatsoever when referring to serious organized crime. Organized crime syndicates, especially those involved in the arms & drug trade, human trafficking and illegal gambling are simply the illegal sector of capital and operate as capital operates, with the added pressure and intensification of illegality sharpening the existing contradictions. This becomes clear if you look at the social relations that animate these organisations, from the bottom level drugrunners all the way up to the kingpins. The closer you get to the top, the more connections to the legal section of capital arise (esp. in the real estate, finance and politics sectors). Similarly, most folks involved with small-time criminality in gangs (excluding those in the most poverty stricken areas perhaps) usually do this to add to their meager incomes from precarious employment in the legal section of capital (most often manual labor or sex-work).

If anything, organized crime reminds the state of its origins and when it combats it its because it doesn't like looking at its own fetus.

[Avanti]

I know that gangs are mostly caused by poverty and greed, but you can't deny that the gang mentality can quickly grow a life of its own. How would you deal with segments of the proletariat population that act as cancers to society?

encourage them.

society needs some more cancer.

society is an artificial structure imposed on the people. the middle age kingdoms were far more consent-based than today's impersonal-based robot structure. cities were self-governing and all locak urban institutions were partially or wholly based on traditions and customs arising from the local community.

nowadays, we have a pretense of legislation to create laws from above to which people should adhere. that is unnatural and unhealthy and plain wrong.

gangs are organic, spontaneous structures which represent their own natural cultures. they are beautiful expressions of the organic and creative potential of humanity.

please, leave the gangs alone!

we should strengthen the gangs.

the stronger gangs, the weaker economy, the weaker the police.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

encourage them.

society needs some more cancer.

society is an artificial structure imposed on the people. the middle age kingdoms were far more consent-based than today's impersonal-based robot structure. cities were self-governing and all locak urban institutions were partially or wholly based on traditions and customs arising from the local community.

nowadays, we have a pretense of legislation to create laws from above to which people should adhere. that is unnatural and unhealthy and plain wrong.

gangs are organic, spontaneous structures which represent their own natural cultures. they are beautiful expressions of the organic and creative potential of humanity.

please, leave the gangs alone!

we should strengthen the gangs.

the stronger gangs, the weaker economy, the weaker the police.

What the hell is wrong with you?

[Jimmie Higgins]

The category 'lumpen proletariat' makes no sense whatsoever when referring to serious organized crime. Organized crime syndicates, especially those involved in the arms & drug trade, human trafficking and illegal gambling are simply the illegal sector of capital and operate as capital operates, with the added pressure and intensification of illegality sharpening the existing contradictions. This becomes clear if you look at the social relations that animate these organisations, from the bottom level drugrunners all the way up to the kingpins. The closer you get to the top, the more connections to the legal section of capital arise (esp. in the real estate, finance and politics sectors). Similarly, most folks involved with small-time criminality in gangs (excluding those in the most poverty stricken areas perhaps) usually do this to add to their meager incomes from precarious employment in the legal section of capital (most often manual labor or sex-work).

If anything, organized crime reminds the state of its origins and when it combats it its because it doesn't like looking at its own fetus.

Yeah I think it's always been sort of a dubious category and I agree that when we look at things like cartels or bootleg liquor - it's really more like just major industry that happens to distribute through the black market rather than legal distribution. I think this may be a more recent development too - relativly speaking. People could profit off the black market back in the day, but it seems like they were closer to well-off petit-bourgoise in their relationships and social position.

But I think the basic feature of this catagorization that's important in regards to class struggle, is that any useful sense of "lumpen-prol" is that they are a group who can make their own money, like the petit-bourgoise, but occupy a space outside of the legal market. Because of this, on the one hand, they may have some common cause with workers in opposing some kind of oppression, but because they still make their living because of (gaps in) the capitalist market, they depend on the system too. This makes them possible recruits against workers movements, but it also means that a powerful worker's movement that can create its own hegemony and sort of gravitational pull will be able to bring some sections of the lumpen-prol and some petit-bourgoise into siding with the workers cause.

So cartel "bosses" will likely have to much to loose from a rebellious and self-determined working class, whereas street-gangs could possibly see their best bet as siding with workers. One annecdote that's always stuck with me is that in the 80s, the bloods held a press-conference and said that SWAT was making violence worse in LA, not hemming it, and that the only way to really end the drug wars and turf fights was if people felt that they could get decent housing and jobs and a better life. Of course the system will never offer this, but these demands are really not that different than the Black Panthers program and so I think a radical class movement that could offer people a viable way to a better world, would win lots of support from people we might not expect.

In addition, I think for those in the US, "lumpen prol" (or as people in Oakland say, "street-entrepenures") also needs to be re-evaluated - at least how people have usually looked at it. Because no class movement in the US will get far without taking on the systemic racism of the police and prison system - and so this also means that gang members and drug dealers and so on will likely have to become organizers and class fighters to help lead struggles inside the prisons with support from movements and allies outside.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The category 'lumpen proletariat' makes no sense whatsoever when referring to serious organized crime. Organized crime syndicates, especially those involved in the arms & drug trade, human trafficking and illegal gambling are simply the illegal sector of capital and operate as capital operates, with the added pressure and intensification of illegality sharpening the existing contradictions. This becomes clear if you look at the social relations that animate these organisations, from the bottom level drugrunners all the way up to the kingpins. The closer you get to the top, the more connections to the legal section of capital arise (esp. in the real estate, finance and politics sectors). Similarly, most folks involved with small-time criminality in gangs (excluding those in the most poverty stricken areas perhaps) usually do this to add to their meager incomes from precarious employment in the legal section of capital (most often manual labor or sex-work).

If anything, organized crime reminds the state of its origins and when it combats it its because it doesn't like looking at its own fetus.

I've always thought that "lumpenbourgeoisie" would be a good name for the bosses of organised crime, as it would emphasise their relation to the means of production in the black market. Although apparently it's a term that's already been employed for something else.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Isn't the very notion of 'lumpenproletariat' a silly one? To dismiss some of the most dangerously affected groups by capitalism as 'dirty thugs who will never be accepting, letalone revolutionary' a bit of a reactionary view in itself? Honestly, It's like the Marxist term for 'derelict' or 'hobo'.

I completely disagree with Marx's musings on the 'Lumpenproletarian counterrevolutionaries'. Disregarding the fact that it can be used as a blanket term for the extreme poor and children who have very little to live by as they grow up, there are many people I know that can be labelled 'lumpen' who are more revolutionary in their ideas than any communist I've ever met.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Isn't the very notion of 'lumpenproletariat' a silly one? To dismiss some of the most dangerously affected groups by capitalism as 'dirty thugs who will never be accepting, letalone revolutionary' a bit of a reactionary view in itself? Honestly, It's like the Marxist term for 'derelict' or 'hobo'.

I completely disagree with Marx's musings on the 'Lumpenproletarian counterrevolutionaries'. Disregarding the fact that it can be used as a blanket term for the extreme poor and children who have very little to live by as they grow up, there are many people I know that can be labelled 'lumpen' who are more revolutionary in their ideas than any communist I've ever met.I think lumpen has been used as a slur in this way, but I think what Marx was talking about (and he was pretty harsh in his language) were not really just people marginalized, but the people who actually thrive (or make a living at least) off of this marginalized condition of part of the working class. So the interests of a "vagabond" in his day or a hobo (who were really migrant workers for the most part) are ultimately alligned with the rest of the working class - they are just marginalized or unemployed workers (and today I'd include a lot of low-level drug dealers and other part-time husstlers who are just trying to make enough money in the short-term because of present conditions and pressures on the [US] working class). So a lumpen-prol might be better thought of as the coyote who profits from the marginalized state of migrant workers, rather than the migrant - who may be unemployed and making casual wages sometimes, but ultimately is a worker with the same working class interests.

But the pimp or person who distributes drugs to the street-level dealers and does so as their way to make a living, has an immediate interest in maintaining their ability to exploit others for profit, in fact the black market often makes this easier and more profitable. So that's why they can represent a potential opposition to class movements and interests.

[human strike]

The category 'lumpen proletariat' makes no sense whatsoever when referring to serious organized crime. Organized crime syndicates, especially those involved in the arms & drug trade, human trafficking and illegal gambling are simply the illegal sector of capital and operate as capital operates, with the added pressure and intensification of illegality sharpening the existing contradictions. This becomes clear if you look at the social relations that animate these organisations, from the bottom level drugrunners all the way up to the kingpins. The closer you get to the top, the more connections to the legal section of capital arise (esp. in the real estate, finance and politics sectors). Similarly, most folks involved with small-time criminality in gangs (excluding those in the most poverty stricken areas perhaps) usually do this to add to their meager incomes from precarious employment in the legal section of capital (most often manual labor or sex-work).

If anything, organized crime reminds the state of its origins and when it combats it its because it doesn't like looking at its own fetus.

I think this can be seen very clearly in TV series The Wire.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Isn't the very notion of 'lumpenproletariat' a silly one? To dismiss some of the most dangerously affected groups by capitalism as 'dirty thugs who will never be accepting, letalone revolutionary' a bit of a reactionary view in itself? Honestly, It's like the Marxist term for 'derelict' or 'hobo'.

I completely disagree with Marx's musings on the 'Lumpenproletarian counterrevolutionaries'. Disregarding the fact that it can be used as a blanket term for the extreme poor and children who have very little to live by as they grow up, there are many people I know that can be labelled 'lumpen' who are more revolutionary in their ideas than any communist I've ever met.

While I disagree with Marx and others who seem to dismiss entirely the revolutionary potential of the lumpenproletariat, I don't think the notion of the lumpenproletariat itself is one that is invalid - the former is a value judgement while the latter is an observation.

In fact, I'm fairly certain that as capitalism continues to fumble along, the numbers of those who could be considered "lumpenproles" will increase, as wages continue not to increase in line with inflation, as more and more jobs are part-time or on zero-hours contracts, and as the ruling classes employ more and more desperation tactics such as workfare in an attempt to prop up their rickety socioeconomic system.

[Avanti]

i am the textbook definition of a lumpenproletarian.

from my point of view, i cannot see any worker militancy. the workers are not protesting to abolish capitalism. they think that the 1950 - 2010 "golden age" capitalism was great - they just want more rights within the system.

those who are talking about worker rights are often middle class academics, which turns it from just strange into hilarious. it seems like marxism is a movement for people with high education who are bitter because their knowledge isn't that high-income under capitalism.

the really fun thing is that all they do is reinforcing capitalism.

the really revolutionary thing... is to step out of the box.

and then burn the box.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

i am the textbook definition of a lumpenproletarian.

from my point of view, i cannot see any worker militancy. the workers are not protesting to abolish capitalism. they think that the 1950 - 2010 "golden age" capitalism was great - they just want more rights within the system.

That will change when it becomes obvious that the ruling classes are not interested in bringing back social democracy.


those who are talking about worker rights are often middle class academics, which turns it from just strange into hilarious. it seems like marxism is a movement for people with high education who are bitter because their knowledge isn't that high-income under capitalism.

If those "middle class academics" where really interested in a bigger pay-packet, then they wouldn't have gone into Marxism. Instead they would have got an MBA and hopped on the managerial gravy train with the rest of them.

But hey, why bother with analysis when we can work off right-wing caricatures instead?


the really fun thing is that all they do is reinforcing capitalism.

How?


the really revolutionary thing... is to step out of the box.

and then burn the box.

What does that mean in actual terms?

[Avanti]

they aren't interested in a bigger pay.

they want a higher social status. being a part of the "revolutionary vanguard" is more romantic-sounding than being a "municipal clerk" or a "lingvistics professor". also, the social cost of being a communist in academics is pretty low.

[Avanti]

what does it mean?

reject the society before it rejects you. drive society away from your neighborhood. engage the outsiders. form anarchist collectives or criminal gangs.

and have fun.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

they aren't interested in a bigger pay.

they want a higher social status. being a part of the "revolutionary vanguard" is more romantic-sounding than being a "municipal clerk" or a "lingvistics professor". also, the social cost of being a communist in academics is pretty low.

Well, if they after social status, becoming a communist academic isn't a successful strategy in that regard. The social cost may not be great, but neither does being a communist afford one much in the way of social status, except in a highly rarefied form that does not amount to much, if anything, outside of some fairly specific social circles.

I also think it's rather presumptuous to entirely reduce the motivations of academic Marxists (or anyone really) to that of social status-seeking. It's one-dimensional, for a start. People do things for all sorts of reasons, and it's not a simple matter to untangle the various reasons and motivations because they vary so much from person to person.


what does it mean?

reject the society before it rejects you. drive society away from your neighborhood. engage the outsiders. form anarchist collectives or criminal gangs.

and have fun.

People can't "reject" society any more than they can reject the air they breathe, because society by definition is formed of individuals interacting with each other as human beings. Same thing for "driving society as away" - my neighbours are part of society, does that mean I should run them out of house and home?

[Avanti]

Well, if they after social status, becoming a communist academic isn't a successful strategy in that regard. The social cost may not be great, but neither does being a communist afford one much in the way of social status, except in a highly rarefied form that does not amount to much, if anything, outside of some fairly specific social circles.

I also think it's rather presumptuous to entirely reduce the motivations of academic Marxists (or anyone really) to that of social status-seeking. It's one-dimensional, for a start. People do things for all sorts of reasons, and it's not a simple matter to untangle the various reasons and motivations because they vary so much from person to person.



People can't "reject" society any more than they can reject the air they breathe, because society by definition is formed of individuals interacting with each other as human beings. Same thing for "driving society as away" - my neighbours are part of society, does that mean I should run them out of house and home?

people don't know why people do what they do. the subconscious is in charge. marxoid academics are feeling a natural hostility to capitalists, but they see workers just as a tool to gain power and install their committees, because academic marxoids love committees and love to argue about the length of marx's beard.

the society we live in today is opposed to the natural organic relations between human individuals and groups. what i see as society is institutions, schools, police stations, the bureaucracy, the corporations, a huge masquerade, a role-playing game, a fake. it is artificial, hierarchic, legalistic, and non-existent, because it's existence is only built on acting like it exists.

everything is like a game of monopoly.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

people don't know why people do what they do. the subconscious is in charge.

Yet you claim to know - you claim that a primary motivation is status-seeking.


marxoid academics are feeling a natural hostility to capitalists, but they see workers just as a tool to gain power and install their committees, because academic marxoids love committees and love to argue about the length of marx's beard.

Why do you think that is?


the society we live in today is opposed to the natural organic relations between human individuals and groups. what i see as society is institutions, schools, police stations, the bureaucracy, the corporations, a huge masquerade, a role-playing game, a fake. it is artificial, hierarchic, legalistic, and non-existent, because it's existence is only built on acting like it exists.

everything is like a game of monopoly.

Nope, society is real. Try pretending it isn't - try pretending that such things as the police, money, etc are nothing but illusions - and one will rapidly discover that the powers of the police are real and that one needs money to survive.

That current society is sub-optimal by any reasonable metric doesn't mean it will change, improve or go away if one attempts to ignore it.

[Avanti]

Why do you think that is?

they are priest personality types. the same kind of people who formed the christian church, and then had schisms. marxists have purges instead. marxism is christianity without christ.


Nope, society is real. Try pretending it isn't - try pretending that such things as the police, money, etc are nothing but illusions - and one will rapidly discover that the powers of the police are real and that one needs money to survive.

they're only real because everyone acts as if they are real. order is merely a flickering of violence imposed on a chaotic reality. my goals is to strip the illusions from your eyes and make you realise that you've got the power.

and society is artificial and destructive to natural human social relationships.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

they are priest personality types.

There is no such thing as a "personality type". There are many known variables in an individual's personality and many more unknown variables which mean that personalities defy any categorisation of the type you seem to be talking about.


the same kind of people who formed the christian church, and then had schisms. marxists have purges instead. marxism is christianity without christ.

People have disagreed with each other for as long as they have been people, not just Marxists and Christians.


they're only real because everyone acts as if they are real. order is merely a flickering of violence imposed on a chaotic reality.

True, the police can't be everywhere, but that does not mean that when I was briefly incarcerated by them for the possession of a small amount of cannabis, that I could have simply closed my eyes and wished myself out of that cell in the cop shop. The locked steel door was a pretty damn effective barrier against my physical escape.


my goals is to strip the illusions from your eyes and make you realise that you've got the power.

What power?


and society is artificial and destructive to natural human social relationships.

Society is a natural human relationship. Nobody planned feudalism or capitalism. They arose organically as the result of the development of productive forces. Just because capitalist society is crap doesn't mean it wasn't a natural consequence of human development. That would be like rejecting natural disasters as "artificial" because of the misery they cause for human beings.

Whatever you want to replace current society with, that will also be society. Unless you want to exterminate the human species or reduce it to one individual, but I'm guessing you don't want to do that.

[Avanti]

True, the police can't be everywhere, but that does not mean that when I was briefly incarcerated by them for the possession of a small amount of cannabis, that I could have simply closed my eyes and wished myself out of that cell in the cop shop. The locked steel door was a pretty damn effective barrier against my physical escape.

i've been there too. a total of four years of my life have been spent in police station jails, youth prisons and psychiatric facilities. i feel your pain, little brother.


What power?

the power to master your own life, and break free from the matrix.


Society is a natural human relationship. Nobody planned feudalism or capitalism. They arose organically as the result of the development of productive forces. Just because capitalist society is crap doesn't mean it wasn't a natural consequence of human development. That would be like rejecting natural disasters as "artificial" because of the misery they cause for human beings.

they don't want you to hear this...

but that is a lie... a lie perpetuated by the Babylonian high priesthood sacrificing to the golden bull of wall street. they haven't planned it all, but they have guided human civilization in a certain direction, wto, the un, black helicopters, gmo's, surveillance cameras, war on terror, police, prisons, schools, mental hospitals...

i don't want to have a non-society. i want millions of organic societies to thrive, not just one big artificial machine that crushes people and turn them into domesticated mental slaves with castrated minds who act as the oil for the cogs of the machinery.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

You've made me question anarchism as a political philosophy. Thanks:(

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

i've been there too. a total of four years of my life have been spent in police station jails, youth prisons and psychiatric facilities. i feel your pain, little brother.

I got off lightly. But as a demonstration of the very real power of the authorities, I thought it an instructive example.


the power to master your own life, and break free from the matrix.

But how can anyone do that when they are constrained by economic and political structures so much larger and more powerful than they are?


they don't want you to hear this...

but that is a lie... a lie perpetuated by the Babylonian high priesthood sacrificing to the golden bull of wall street. they haven't planned it all, but they have guided human civilization in a certain direction, wto, the un, black helicopters, gmo's, surveillance cameras, war on terror, police, prisons, schools, mental hospitals...

Oh, good grief. If the world has been guided in any fashion since Babylonian times(?!), then why is it such a fucking mess?

[Avanti]

look, "Babylon" is the collective term for a mentality. the elite mentality. an enlightened liberal system of world governance which is borderless and lack any single central point, but which foremost control the creation of money and debt. as far as i know, that system was first taking form in the end of the 18th century.


But how can anyone do that when they are constrained by economic and political structures so much larger and more powerful than they are?

you'll get that power when whatever it is where you're living is brazilised. the elite won't care for you. you can sell drugs, steal and even kill people, as long as you don't intrude on corporate, middle class or state property. the state will not any more have any reason to educate or control the masses.

it will see us as we see wild animals.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

look, "Babylon" is the collective term for a mentality. the elite mentality. an enlightened liberal system of world governance which is borderless and lack any single central point, but which foremost control the creation of money and debt. as far as i know, that system was first taking form in the end of the 18th century.

It might help discussions if you try to remember that not everyone here may be familiar with the terminology you are using. The "Babylonian" stuff sounds awfully like it came from some of the really... fanciful paranoid conspiracy theories I have come across.

As for world governance, I'll believe it when I see it.


you'll get that power when whatever it is where you're living is brazilised. the elite won't care for you. you can sell drugs, steal and even kill people, as long as you don't intrude on corporate, middle class or state property. the state will not any more have any reason to educate or control the masses.

it will see us as we see wild animals.

Sounds like a completely and utterly shit situation, if I'm completely honest.

[Avanti]

conspiracy theories are only bad allegories. good allegories should not be detailed and should not be interpreted literally.


Sounds like a completely and utterly shit situation, if I'm completely honest.

yes and no. many will die in pain. but most will survive and adapt, form new identities. i intend to prepare for such a new world. anarcho-survivalism is the future.

[l'Enfermé]

Avanti, if you're not a troll, you're obviously losing your grip on reality and probably should meet with a psychiatrist.

[Avanti]

why should i meet one? i already have one i meet once every second week.

you don't get me. "Babylon" is an easier term for a very complex system. conspiracy theories are usually puerile, but i like their aesthetics. however, the most scary kind of message is to just use those aesthetics instead of attaching any stupid theories about jews, lizards or catholics into the mess.

just let people's imagination free. i will explain that in another thread, another time.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

1. Fuck gangbangers- From the guy who actually knows gangbangers.
From the guy who is actually a former gangbanger, with this type of attitude you're passing over a lot of poor(and sometimes working class) people who already have a militant attitude towards the state right off the bat. It's hard to speak of gangs in a general way because gangs are not at all a homogenous group and even within gangs that is true. There is no doubt in my mind that a lot of gangbangers can be swayed into supporting revolutionary politics(I'm living proof) but there are also many who profit off of the way things are now who would militantly fight back against such agitation within their ranks.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

I'm cool for assimilating them, but if they don't join up 6 months into the shit, they'll be equalized (cartoon reference)

[Avanti]

why should they be assimilated into a sick society?

they are free.

why not join them?

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

why should they be assimilated into a sick society?

they are free.

why not join them?

No because they're mostly narcissistic, materialist, and barbaric bastards (I'm not talking about the smallfry's who sell me weed) (and they kind of suck too)

[Avanti]

narcissism amongst asocials is a sign of health.

they are free, strong and proud.

tomorrow they might die in a drug war, or be shot by the police.

but today, they will live forever.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

.................................................. .................................................. ....

Edit: Wait do i have to delete this? (seeing as though this thread is losing cohesion)
don't get the rules, tell me to take it down instead of infracting if it's a problem.

post edit: Pulled down until go ahead

[Avanti]

criminals and gang members are real human beings, making autonomous choices expressing what they want, not what society indoctrinates them to believe they need, want, desire.

they immediately follow up on their own desires.

that's admirable that they'll do that, despite all torture, control and indoctrination pumped into their heads when mashed through the education system.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

criminals and gang members are real human beings, making autonomous choices expressing what they want, not what society indoctrinates them to believe they need, want, desire.

they immediately follow up on their own desires.

that's admirable that they'll do that, despite all torture, control and indoctrination pumped into their heads when mashed through the education system.

Which justifies them behaving like animals towards their fellow man

[Avanti]

we are animals.

we have just pretended we don't are.

civilization has murdered billions, with the support of laws, religion, morality and institutions.

if the choice is between gangster gangs who don't pretend they have any moral right to fuck you in the ass, and the state which preaches how much it loves you and how much you need it... i'm with the gangsters.

gangsters are far more human.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

we are animals.

we have just pretended we don't are.

civilization has murdered billions, with the support of laws, religion, morality and institutions.

if the choice is between gangster gangs who don't pretend they have any moral right to fuck you in the ass, and the state which preaches how much it loves you and how much you need it... i'm with the gangsters.

gangsters are far more human.

No God damnit pure anarchy is not something you should desire. I'd rather we pretend that there are moral reasons not to rape and pillage (ps there are) instead of plunging face first into a dubstep music video

[Avanti]

it is very sad when someone is murdered or raped.

we should test to have more sex with one another to resolve conflicts.

or at least kiss one another more.

like birds do.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

it is very sad when someone is murdered or raped.

we should test to have more sex with one another to resolve conflicts.

or at least kiss one another more.

like birds do.

What the fuck?

[Avanti]

all that with police and prisons is so authoritarian.

we should solve our problems like kids do.

also, communism is not something which can grow on the outside.

it must come from the heart.

you can be violent.

but then you must accept that others can be violent towards you.

that's the honest way.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

we are animals.

we have just pretended we don't are.

civilization has murdered billions, with the support of laws, religion, morality and institutions.

I'm an animal. But an animal doesn't necessarily have to be savage to survive. Whether it's a soft hide or having ethics, what one might see as "disadvantages" in a naively Darwinian sense are actually balanced out by other traits and environmental factors.

For example, for all our supposed failures, we came up with the practice of consent. We may not always respect it, but some consent is better than none at all.


if the choice is between gangster gangs who don't pretend they have any moral right to fuck you in the ass, and the state which preaches how much it loves you and how much you need it... i'm with the gangsters.

gangsters are far more human.

Depends what kind of gangsters we're talking about? I hardly think they come in Identikit form.

[Avanti]

no, but in Cyberpunk, we'll have to deal with them all, either by petty wars or by shifting alliances. they'll be the rulers of small de-facto states.

and i agree consent is the most beautiful thing that exists.

there's nothing so beautiful as to give a gift to someone, and hold their hands while lying on the beach looking up to the stars.

or to drift together with a friend.

or make love to a beautiful person.

life is wonderful, if we make it our choice.

[Avanti]

i don't think anyone is good or evil.

we all have good and dark sides.

i know my dark sides very well.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Again What..THe...Fuck.. Kids respond to things with a herd mentality; easily being mainpulated, quickly bowing to force, and picking off the straglers who don't comply. How that mentality should be directed to crimes like rape is beyond me.

edit: Wait i get it now, rapists et al. would be killed and tortured if captured by the offended group. How..... interesting:(

[Avanti]

that'll what takes to survive in the urban jungle.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

You've quickly crossed the line into stupidity. Sad:(

[Avanti]

when you have a small crew and everything can kill you

you protect your crew before everything else

it's more complicated

in christiania, if someone commits a crime, they'll be beaten up by those close by and shown off christiania.

under Cyberpunk, you'll have to be tough but fair.

[GoddessCleoLover]

What you are describing is nothing new, Hobbes referred to it as a "state of nature". Because life is so unbearable in its natural state, there arises a group to maintain order and rule over the community that formerly suffered under the nastiness and brutishness of the state of nature.

[Jimmie Higgins]

criminals and gang members are real human beings, making autonomous choices expressing what they want, not what society indoctrinates them to believe they need, want, desire.

they immediately follow up on their own desires.

that's admirable that they'll do that, despite all torture, control and indoctrination pumped into their heads when mashed through the education system.

This is really rather creepy to me - almost like "noble savage" romanticism. We need to smash the "good people/bad people" ideas (usually tied with racist charactures) presented to us constantly in the media - but we also shouldn't romanticize people or have idealist conceptions of what life is like when you are marginalized.

Gang members are indeed human beings, but for the most part they are no more free than any wage-slave. Nor do many feel free. Nor are many actually free when you consider - in the US at least - the way kids are swept up (gang members or not) by the "war on drugs/gangs/crime".

At best gangs or selling drugs and so on are ways people try and deal with the insecurity and inequalities of the system - to romanticize outlaws for having to deal with these shitty conditions and situations is to romanticize these conditions in a sort of de-facto way.

Early CRIPS concieved of themselves as sort of a cultural-revolutionary club following in the footseteps of the Black power groups. As I said in another post, leading members of the Bloods themselves were concerned that turff wars over controlling the block for safty and pride became economic wars (and militarized) as industry and social reforms were stripped from the cities and drug-dealing became a profession of necissity for the growing unemployed. It is not "free and autonomous" when gang members themselves mystefied by the waves of retaliation that they themselves are participating.

The gang-truce in LA I think gives a small glimpse of what an easing of some of these economically compelled conditions would mean in terms of people's real autonomous choices. Just look at the music from that, g-funk era: La-ti-da-ti, we like to party.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

it seems like marxism is a movement for people with high education who are bitter because their knowledge isn't that high-income under capitalism.
Sorry, I'm a working class high school dropout and a Marxist.

[Yuppie Grinder]

we are animals.

we have just pretended we don't are.

civilization has murdered billions, with the support of laws, religion, morality and institutions.

if the choice is between gangster gangs who don't pretend they have any moral right to fuck you in the ass, and the state which preaches how much it loves you and how much you need it... i'm with the gangsters.

gangsters are far more human.
i love you

[newdayrising]

Also, "PC" is a right-wing term of derision used when leftists, feminists, anti-racists, etc. challenge the dominant paradigm in some way.

In my opinion you were on the right on this argument with the anti-gang fellow, but using "PC" as a negative term is not an exclusive right-wing thing. It may be used by leftists as a criticism of identity politics and liberalism.

I for one understand there's a difference between political correctness and a revolutionary criticism and analysis of bigotry and don't put so much of an emphasis on language (which seems to be the focus of "PC") as on other things.

[newdayrising]

please, leave the gangs alone!

we should strengthen the gangs.

the stronger gangs, the weaker economy, the weaker the police.

Have you seen a community where gangs have actually "won" and are dominated by crime, such as favelas in Brazil?
It's an even more oppressive and reactionary environment than a normal community. The criminals function as a state and exploit the rest in an even more savage manner than a bourgeois state. It's one of the clearest expressions of capitalism in decay, a caricature of class society, not its negation in any way. As been said before here, organized crime is the ilegal side of capital.
Plus, they always work alongside the police, not against it. The police is paid off by the gangs, that's exactly how the whole thing operates. On their end, criminals keep class society going, because they depend on it, as they need extreme poverty in order to get kids to work for them. The only reason a gang might "win" is exactly by being left alone, and the only reason they will be left alone is when it's not worth for the bourgeoisie to destroy them, either because the gangs play a reactionary role and keep the community on their place or because they (the ruling class) just don't care, so the criminals build their own substitute for the state.
Either way, the gangs are doing the bourgeois work for them.

The idea of romantic criminals fighting the state and playing any progressive role is a complete fantasy.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

In my opinion you were on the right on this argument with the anti-gang fellow, but using "PC" as a negative term is not an exclusive right-wing thing. It may be used by leftist as criticism to identity politics and liberalism.
Here in the US, it's primarily used by the right-wing. Not exclusively, mind you, but enough so.

[Avanti]

Have you seen a community where gangs have actually "won" and are dominated by crime, such as favelas in Brazil?
It's an even more oppressive and reactionary environment than a normal community. The criminals function as a state and exploit the rest in an even more savage manner than a bourgeois state. It's one of the clearest expressions of capitalism in decay, a caricature of class society, not its negation in any way. As been said before here, organized crime is the ilegal side of capital.
Plus, they always work alongside the police, not against it. The police is paid off by the gangs, that's exactly how the whole thing operates. On their end, criminals keep class society going, because they depend on it, as they need extreme poverty in order to get kids to work for them. The only reason a gang might "win" is exactly by being left alone, and the only reason they will be left alone is when it's not worth for the bourgeoisie to destroy them, either because the gangs play a reactionary role and keep the community on their place or because they (the ruling class) just don't care, so the criminals build their own substitute for the state.
Either way, the gangs are doing the bourgeois work for them.

The idea of romantic criminals fighting the state and playing any progressive role is a complete fantasy.

look, there's differences between gangs.

i've been affiliated with gangs.

i know different kinds of gangs.

and yes, i agree.

but gangs are weaker than the state. NeoTribes vs the state is rpg rockets downing a drone once or twice a year. NeoTribes vs gangs is equals fighting. that's a difference.

i prefer fighting or allying gangs before states.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Avanti, your life sounds so romantic and extraordinary. Tell me about your adventures with the NeoTribes and TechnoShamans.

[Avanti]

i was a part of several NeoTribes, since the early 1990s.

i will start a new thread about it.