is this a nuts theory...

[ed miliband]

the stance on abortion of the irish political class is related more to the fact the irish population has not recovered since the potato famine and subsequent emigration than the domination of catholicism in ireland.

idk, i'm looking for a materialist explanation of irish abortion law, especially given a (small) majority of irish citizens are against the constitutional criminalisation of abortion.

any answers?

[GoddessCleoLover]

My Gramscian reply is that one ought not strain for a materialist explanation for that which can be adequately explained by cultural hegemony.

[ed miliband]

but surely when a majority of a country's population are against something... "cultural hegemony" isn't working.

and what is the purpose of that "cultural hegemony"? what do the irish ruling class gain from their stance on abortion?

[Os Cangaceiros]

A majority oppose the criminality of abortion, but is the opposition inert? How strongly do people oppose the law, is there a lot of activism related to the issue, etc.

Can't just be that Ireland is a Catholic country. Abortion has been legal in Italy since the 70s. But I don't know enough about Ireland to comment beyond that. Could just be that a retrograde legal statute has survived past it's experation date, for whatever reason...

[ed miliband]

A majority oppose the criminality of abortion, but is the opposition inert? How strongly do people oppose the law, is there a lot of activism related to the issue, etc.

Can't just be that Ireland is a Catholic country. Abortion has been legal in Italy since the 70s. But I don't know enough about Ireland to comment beyond that. Could just be that a retrograde legal statute has survived past it's experation date, for whatever reason...

the constitutional banning of abortion was signed into law in the early 80s, so it isn't some ancient relic that still exists. and yeah, good point re: italy.

earlier this year i saw a massive "pro-life" demo in dublin, and i believe the "pro-life" movement has a large street force. at the same time, i suppose pro-choice activists are more concerned with ensuring women have access to legal abortion in the uk (and sometimes netherlands). idk.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Catholicism is really integral to national bourgeois culture there. Could be as simple as that.

[Os Cangaceiros]

the constitutional banning of abortion was signed into law in the early 80s, so it isn't some ancient relic that still exists.

Oh wow, that is interesting....hmmm....

[ed miliband]

Catholicism is really integral to national bourgeois culture there. Could be as simple as that.

again, this is like the gramscian stuff; maybe that's the case, but we have to ask why?

[ed miliband]

also, gotta say, i'm proud this fella was a family friend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Kemmy

simply because he opposed the "pro-life" amendment to the constitution.

#namedropping

[GoddessCleoLover]

Catholicism has been part of the Irish national identity for hundreds of years, and since Henry VIIIth established the Church of England the Catholic religion over time became intertwined with Iris h aspirations for independence from Great Britain.

[ed miliband]

Catholicism has been part of the Irish national identity for hundreds of years, and since Henry VIIIth established the Church of England the Catholic religion over time became intertwined with Iris h aspirations for independence from Great Britain.

what about abortion law in other catholic countries, for e.g. italy, as pointed out above?

and again, the fact the law goes against the opinion of most irish citizens.

[GoddessCleoLover]

The modern Italian nation-state was founded as a secular, not Catholic, entity. This could be one reason why the Church seems to have less political influence in Italy than it does in Ireland.

[Yuppie Grinder]

again, this is like the gramscian stuff; maybe that's the case, but we have to ask why?

Cultural hegemony is necessary for the preservation of advanced capitalist society. The moment the proletariat develops cultural and political sensibilities of its own outside of commodity culture, a tremendous victory for the worker's emancipation movement has been won.

[ed miliband]

Cultural hegemony is necessary for the preservation of advanced capitalist society. The moment the proletariat develops cultural and political sensibilities of its own outside of commodity culture, a tremendous victory for the worker's emancipation movement has been won.

mate, this just sounds like you are regurgitating shit in this case. no relation to what i'm asking.


again: given that a (yes, small...) majority of irish citizens oppose irish abortion law -- and regardless of that, irish women can obtain legal abortions in countries surrounding ireland, and do so -- what role does ireland's criminalisation of abortion play for the ruling class?

e: tho, given social reproduction is necessary for the preservation of capital, i don't see how this negates what i say initially.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

I don't think it plays any role outside of placating old cultural (same kind of subconscious drive based on past history that makes Germany fear inflation or Israel to consider things like the Sampson protocol) and religious (La Papa se dice no al aborto) tendencies.

[Sendo]

the stance on abortion of the irish political class is related more to the fact the irish population has not recovered since the potato famine and subsequent emigration than the domination of catholicism in ireland.

idk, i'm looking for a materialist explanation of irish abortion law, especially given a (small) majority of irish citizens are against the constitutional criminalisation of abortion.

any answers?

It's not that nuts at all. South Koreans believe their abortion laws have similar motives. Though I must mention that "back-alley" abortions are much more easily and safely had than you'd imagine for a country that doesn't allow it. The law is not based on a widespread Godliness or anything. People are aware of the obvious patriarchy involved but are also quite cynical/realistic about things. Young people especially are aware their generation's native-native birthrate is low and think the government wants to make it higher. Shotgun weddings are not uncommon. The government is also VERY accomodating to international marriage and has a lot of free assimilation programs and the like, whether it be from international matchmaker weddings, mail-order brides, or just by chance. Admittedly the police are incredibly chauvinist and foreigner wives are at risk for several crimes, so there is an effective racism at work....

Anyhow, given how the state is not obliged to make Christianist statements like "God Bless Korea" as in the American theocracy, the pro-choice appeals are usually shot down by a plain old chauvinist (men should decide everything on principle) or someone who's just thinking about the population (and using women as incubators is sexist of course).

The fact that women are making big strides in politics here and that the younger generation is much more progressive than their Cold War survivor parents (and also having fewer children), I'd say the government is mostly concerned with birthrates first.

TL;DR South Korea probably bans abortion for just that very reason (population boost)

[MarxSchmarx]

The Irish ruling class and their lackeys esp Fine Gael, Labour and Fianna Fail can't win elections on austerity, low corporate tax rates, celtic tiger crap. So they scurry for any old prejudice that may win them votes they can, including misogynistic Catholicism. As long as this keeps enough neoliberals making peoples lives shit elected and re-elected to implement the agenda of the ruling class, the Irish oligarchy has no incentive to change its stance on this issue.

[ed miliband]

The Irish ruling class and their lackeys esp Fine Gael, Labour and Fianna Fail can't win elections on austerity, low corporate tax rates, celtic tiger crap. So they scurry for any old prejudice that may win them votes they can, including misogynistic Catholicism. As long as this keeps enough neoliberals making peoples lives shit elected and re-elected to implement the agenda of the ruling class, the Irish oligarchy has no incentive to change its stance on this issue.

i don't doubt any of this; but then, as i keep saying, opinion polls show a majority are opposed to current abortion laws. surely parties would take not of that?

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Read my above post

[Sasha]

what about abortion law in other catholic countries, for e.g. italy, as pointed out above?

and again, the fact the law goes against the opinion of most irish citizens.


but it doesnt matter enough to those who have the means to change the law, like you already mentioned they just hop on a plane to england or the benelux, its other, poor (!) people who cant have abortions. Its like those US senators who oppose abortion even in case of rape or threat to life of the mother but not when its their own mistress or daughter.
Rich people always can and always had have safe abortions whether it was legal or not, abortion rights is just another issue of class.

[Blake's Baby]

Catholicism has been part of the Irish national identity for hundreds of years, and since Henry VIIIth established the Church of England the Catholic religion over time became intertwined with Iris h aspirations for independence from Great Britain.

1-Henry VIII didn't establish the Church of England, Edward VI established the Church of England, Henry's church was Catholic - but had broken with the Papacy;
2-England didn't really complete the conquest of Ireland until the time of Elizabeth I, 60 years after Henry VIII's break with the Pope;
3-much of the dynamic for Irish independence was actually provided by Protestants in Ireland - many leaders of the independence movement in the 18th and 19th centuries were Protestant, check out the 'United Irishmen' for info on this.

I'm not sure what was happening in Ireland during the Reformation, my understanding is that it substantially 'went Protestant' and was then re-Catholicised by the Counter-Reformation (in much the same way as Poland, another country in which the Catholic Church has a massive influence - really, Poland might be a useful point of comparison, another country formed in the recent past from other countries' empires, on the basis of ancient national myths).

It certainly seems to be true that much later a kind of Catholic homogenised identity has been produced, defining Ireland as 'Catholic' and Britain (especially England) as 'Protestant'. But it has only developed as far as I can tell since 1920 and therefore seems to be a 'national myth' to seperate Ireland from the 'other' of Britain. At the same time, the role of Protestantism, the French (anti-clerical) revolution, the European enlightenment and Anglo-American radicalism (for instance, Tom Paine's 'Rights of Man') in the struggle for national independece have been minimised.

[BOZG]

the constitutional banning of abortion was signed into law in the early 80s, so it isn't some ancient relic that still exists. and yeah, good point re: italy.

earlier this year i saw a massive "pro-life" demo in dublin, and i believe the "pro-life" movement has a large street force. at the same time, i suppose pro-choice activists are more concerned with ensuring women have access to legal abortion in the uk (and sometimes netherlands). idk.

The Eight Amendment gave constitutional protection to the unborn foetus but abortion has been illegal in Ireland since Norman times.

Prior to the Eight Amendment, it was the Offences against the Persons Act 1861 which was the chief piece of legislation outlawing abortions.

So in that sense, Ireland isn't all that different to other countries. The reason that it hasn't been appealed is a product of a number of things - dominance of the Church, political cowardice of the bourgeoisie, a weak women's movement and a weak left.


Here (http://www.politico.ie/society/5472-cover-story-backlash-and-blackmail.html) is a good article on the role of the clerical right in the 1983 referendum.

[DVRA]

It's partially about the defense of the family unit in the eyes of the bourgeois order; the discouragement of sexual promiscuity and the defense of the nuclear family form.