Israel openly attacks Gaza

[B5C]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/558834_10151238259969411_1802453932_n.jpg
BBC correspondent Jihad Masharawi cradles his 11-month-old son in his arms after he was burned alive during an Israeli rocket attack on Gaza


"Israel's latest Gaza attack could spiral out of control"

An extreme act, such as Israel's assassination of Hamas military chief Ahmed al-Jabari, invites extreme consequences. These are now threatened by Gaza militants who vow to resume the suicide bombings that terrorised Israeli cities a decade or more ago. Hamas official Ismail al-Ashqar said the "resistance's possibilities" were now unlimited. Abu Ahmed of Islamic Jihad's military wing warned all means would be used to exact a terrible revenge for Jabari's death. "There are no more red lines," he said.

Binyamin Netanyahu, Israel's pugnacious prime minister, and his faithful sidekick, defence minister Ehud Barak, presumably took such inflamed reactions into account when they set Operation Pillar of Defence in train. Perhaps they discount them as empty rhetoric on a par with Hamas's "opening the gates of hell" soundbite, grimly regurgitated by the BBC and other media on Thursday. If they do, they risk repeating costly mistakes of the past.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/15/israel-gaza-attack-netanyahu


Really I fucking hate Israel's freaking overkill just to kill one man and fuck the USA for standing behind Israel.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The overkill is the whole point. They could easily quietly assassinate people as they've done in the past if that was really the point.

[Ostrinski]

Death to Zionism.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I have heard that Israel is mobilizing ground troops for a possible land assault. If they actually go through with it I wonder how committed they will be (especially since the elections are over and they no longer have to play politics).

[B5C]

I have heard that Israel is mobilizing ground troops for a possible land assault.

Oh god, that would make things worse.


If they actually go through with it I wonder how committed they will be (especially since the elections are over and they no longer have to play politics).

Well I don't believe the Israel people are committed, but the current Benjamin Netanyahu government is. They don't have Romney coming in Januray, so I believe Benjamin Netanyahu is pushing to see how far Obama is willing to go. Also Benjamin Netanyahu knows that US congress is fully allied to Israel, so there is nothing Obama can really do.

[R_P_A_S]

Jews claim that Hamas had been firing Rockets none stop.. I believe over 80 for the past 48 hours and this is just Israel defending them selves..?

How come we never heard of Hamas firing rockets since Tuesday?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Jews claim that Hamas had been firing Rockets none stop.. I believe over 80 for the past 48 hours and this is just Israel defending them selves..?

How come we never heard of Hamas firing rockets since Tuesday?

Woah! Not cool friend - Israel =/= Jews. That's a really, really unfortunate conflation.

[Soomie]

Woah! Not cool friend - Israel =/= Jews. That's a really, really unfortunate conflation.

It is true that not all Jews are bad, and not all Palestinians are good. However, I think it is safe to say that how Israel has, and continues to, handle the situation is disgraceful. I always have and will continue to support the Palestinians in their fight against the jewish state of "Israel."

[bricolage]

election season.

but away from the barbarity of another onslaught on Gaza can we take a minute to take in the fact that the IDF now live tweets it's actions, with 're-tweet if you support israel' options. baudrillard on crack or something.


Jews claim that Hamas had been firing Rockets none stop
no.

[doesn't even make sense]

An ugly, animal part of me was grimly satisfied to hear that not only did Gaza's shitty rockets finally score a hit but that it killed a few civilians and thus ever so slightly 'settled the score'. If an outsider with internationalist views like me has to correct himself in reaction to shit like this imagine the hatred and inhumanity Israel's savagery is sowing right now. But one thing is public opinion and another is military policy. I can't help but see this as the IDF and Israeli government intentionally sabotaging any hope of a peaceful settlement. For them to even talk about wishing for peace is a hideous and disgusting joke.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I can't help but see this as the IDF and Israeli government intentionally sabotaging any hope of a peaceful settlement.That's because they are.

What does negotiation mean when one guy has another in a headlock? For the attacked and oppressed, peace means an end to this oppression; for the oppressor, peace just means pacification and submission of the oppressed. It's just so absurd, the language that they employ.


For them to even talk about wishing for peace is a hideous and disgusting joke.Definitely.

[brigadista]

according to twitter posts whole of gaza and some of the west bank being bombed tonight- another massacre ...

[doesn't even make sense]

according to twitter posts whole of gaza and some of the west bank being bombed tonight- another massacre ...

The West Bank? Dear God if that's true...

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

8956

[graffic]

according to twitter posts whole of gaza and some of the west bank being bombed tonight- another massacre ...

Wtf do you have access to the same websites as me? Don't be stupid. Look at Haaretz and BBC news. The "West Bank" is not being attacked.

I think it's worrying that the rockets are reaching tel aviv. It's probably going to escalate now and loads of innocents will die on both sides. Thats like London or New York being hit by rockets in that Tel Aviv is a commercial centre.

[graffic]

It doesn't matter which side you support, sporadically firing rockets into civilian area's is irresponsible behavior. I don't condone the Israeli response if it results in palestinian deaths but firing rockets aimlessly at civilians is not a proportionate or rational response to the oppression they suffer. Hamas don't want to go down the diplomatic route because they know they will lose because the majority of the world has accepted Israel's existence and knows the Jews are not going to go back to Europe.

[Niall]

Wtf do you have access to the same websites as me? Don't be stupid. Look at Haaretz and BBC news. The "West Bank" is not being attacked.

I think it's worrying that the rockets are reaching tel aviv. It's probably going to escalate now and loads of innocents will die on both sides. Thats like London or New York being hit by rockets in that Tel Aviv is a commercial centre.
bbc is hardly a good site to get news from is it.

The whole thing is disgusting. I really feel for the people of Gaza and the Palestinians as a whole

[l'Enfermé]

Fucking dogs, not a single decent person among these Zionist scumbags.

[B5C]

It doesn't matter which side you support, sporadically firing rockets into civilian area's is irresponsible behavior. I don't condone the Israeli response if it results in palestinian deaths but firing rockets aimlessly at civilians is not a proportionate or rational response to the oppression they suffer. Hamas don't want to go down the diplomatic route because they know they will lose because the majority of the world has accepted Israel's existence and knows the Jews are not going to go back to Europe.

Hamas rockets rarely hit anything and cause minimal damage. Israel's missiles cause massive damage which can destroy a whole city block. Israel do have a right to defend it self if attacked, but the Israel's response is just freaking OVERKILL.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/416997_529314507096795_658276945_n.jpg

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

I think it's worrying that the rockets are reaching tel aviv. It's probably going to escalate now and loads of innocents will die on both sides. Thats like London or New York being hit by rockets in that Tel Aviv is a commercial centre.


I think it's worrying that you're allowed on the revleft forum.

[B5C]

I think it's worrying that the rockets are reaching tel aviv. It's probably going to escalate now and loads of innocents will die on both sides. Thats like London or New York being hit by rockets in that Tel Aviv is a commercial centre.

Yet, Hamas isn't doing the London Blitz on Tel Aviv. Israel is doing a Blitz on Gaza.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I think it's worrying that you're allowed on the revleft forum.

Pro-Zionists are allowed on the forum, however, as per the rules. In fact, though I am not privy as to why graffic is restricted, his restriction is not due to his apparent pro-Israel stance as those people are allowed to roam the boards free.

[graffic]

Pro-Zionists are allowed on the forum, however, as per the rules. In fact, though I am not privy as to why graffic is restricted, his restriction is not due to his apparent pro-Israel stance as those people are allowed to roam the boards free.

I wouldn't describe myself as "pro-Israel". However the reason I was restricted 5 years ago was apparantley because of being pro Zionist.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I wouldn't describe myself as "pro-Israel". However the reason I was restricted 5 years ago was apparantley because of being pro Zionist.

It wasn't because of you being pro-zionist because, as I have already said, Zionists are allowed free range of the boards (in fact there was a major controversy about this a few years back). You were restricted for something else.If you are unsure of what than ask an Admin.

Anyways, off topic... so yeah, the conflict, its horrendous.

[brigadista]

bpsS3rC4mpo

[R_P_A_S]

Woah! Not cool friend - Israel =/= Jews. That's a really, really unfortunate conflation.

oh shit.. political incorrect police. Im Busted. Anyways when I said "jews" I was referring to my social circle of friends who are jews so there for I was correct.

[bricolage]

oh shit.. political incorrect police. Im Busted. Anyways when I said "jews" I was referring to my social circle of friends who are jews so there for I was correct.
oh sorry, I didn't realise that your friends were the mouthpiece for all jews worldwide. I must have missed the meeting.

the irony is that the state of israel has historically got half its legitimacy from claims to speak for all jews (leading to it and its supporters branding opponents anti-semitic). when 'anti-zionists' decide to replicate this binary of jews vs. others all they are doing is given credence to the founding myth of a capitalist state. but yeah it doesn't matter that there might be jews repulsed by continued assaults on one of the most densely populated places on earth, cos your friends are jews and they are down with it. safe safe.

[R_P_A_S]

oh sorry, I didn't realise that your friends were the mouthpiece for all jews worldwide. I must have missed the meeting.

the irony is that the state of israel has historically got half its legitimacy from claims to speak for all jews (leading to it and its supporters branding opponents anti-semitic). when 'anti-zionists' decide to replicate this binary of jews vs. others all they are doing is given credence to the founding myth of a capitalist state. but yeah it doesn't matter that there might be jews repulsed by continued assaults on one of the most densely populated places on earth, cos your friends are jews and they are down with it. safe safe.

you are barking up the wrong fucking tree man. get over it. I know the difference it slip.. I never said they were the mouthpiece. Move on

[o well this is ok I guess]

Wtf do you have access to the same websites as me? Don't be stupid. Look at Haaretz and BBC news. The "West Bank" is not being attacked.

I think it's worrying that the rockets are reaching tel aviv. It's probably going to escalate now and loads of innocents will die on both sides. Thats like London or New York being hit by rockets in that Tel Aviv is a commercial centre. yo u srs
The IDF straight up tweeted that its doing airstrikes

[graffic]

yo man u evr seen a map of israel?

Gaza is a strip in the south bordered by Israel and Egypt. The West bank is in the West bordered by Jordan and Israel. Hamas took power in Gaza in 2006 and the rockets are coming from the strip and Israel is striking Gaza and preparing a ground offensive.

[o well this is ok I guess]

yo man u evr seen a map of israel?

Gaza is a strip in the south bordered by Israel and Egypt. The West bank is in the West bordered by Jordan and Israel. Hamas took power in Gaza in 2006 and the rockets are coming from the strip and Israel is striking Gaza and preparing a ground offensive. whoopsy daisy

[black magick hustla]

it also seems american jews are different than their european counterparts in that the former seems more zionist.

[bricolage]

you are barking up the wrong fucking tree man. get over it. I know the difference it slip.. I never said they were the mouthpiece. Move on
whatever, you're not saying anything.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Everything in America is more Zionist.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Everything in America is more Zionist.

This doesn't make any sense, what do you mean? :confused:

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

This doesn't make any sense, what do you mean? :confused:
I forgot to quote the post 2 spots above mine. He said that jews in America are more zionistic than jews in Europe.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I forgot to quote the post 2 spots above mine. He said that jews in America are more zionistic than jews in Europe.Yeah, in Europe you get critical voices against Israel.

In the US the official debate goes like this:

Conservative: "Fucking Palistinian terrorists! Barbarians trying to destroy the beacon of democracy and European peopl-errr freedom in the region!"

Liberal: "Oh, well you know... gee... both sides are just so bad... but Isreal is good to gays... but gee... they've just been fighting for millennia... there's nothing people in the US can do... oh isn't is just so sad, why don't people read Gandhi more?"

Reformist Left: "Of course I'm against Israeli policies... but let's not bring that up right now".

[Rafiq]

What's this sympathy for Hamas for?

[Let's Get Free]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Israeli_Palestinian_sides.jpg

[graffic]

Hamas are fucking monsters. Have you heard the language they are using? They are describing things as "surprises" and saying things like "we've got a few more surprises for you". What sort of sick fuck uses language like that in war? They've also declared that every single Zionist on "palestinian" soil is a target. That's including women, children, tourists and people who have nothing to do with the conflict. What are they actually gaining firing rockets like mad pirates into a developed country at ordinary Israeli's trying to get on with their lives? It's not at all surprising Israeli's are behind the Gaza strikes not because of the massive inconvenience for their daily lives, or the sheer terror of hearing a siren and not knowing where the rocket will land, but also the insidiousness of a group of people who genuinely want to kill them and are actively trying to kill them as civilians because they happen to be Jewish and living in Israel.

Neither side is right and there is too much hatred on both side but I don't understand Hamas tactics of provoking the bully at all. Are they so filled with hate they don't care about the response they just want to fight, do they genuinely think they can defeat the IDF, are they deliberately coaxing Israel into responding to win international support from a humanitarian point of view. The problem is that anti-Zionism is a big vote winner in Arab countries. It was at the time when Israel was established and it's the same now.

[black magick hustla]

Hamas are fucking monsters. Have you heard the language they are using? They are describing things as "surprises" and saying things like "we've got a few more surprises for you". What sort of sick fuck uses language like that in war? They've also declared that every single Zionist on "palestinian" soil is a target. That's including women, children, tourists and people who have nothing to do with the conflict. What are they actually gaining firing rockets like mad pirates into a developed country at ordinary Israeli's trying to get on with their lives? It's not at all surprising Israeli's are behind the Gaza strikes not because of the massive inconvenience for their daily lives, or the sheer terror of hearing a siren and not knowing where the rocket will land, but also the insidiousness of a group of people who genuinely want to kill them and are actively trying to kill them as civilians because they happen to be Jewish and living in Israel.

Neither side is right and there is too much hatred on both side but I don't understand Hamas tactics of provoking the bully at all. Are they so filled with hate they don't care about the response they just want to fight, do they genuinely think they can defeat the IDF, are they deliberately coaxing Israel into responding to win international support from a humanitarian point of view. The problem is that anti-Zionism is a big vote winner in Arab countries. It was at the time when Israel was established and it's the same now.

nobody is talking about hamas. shutup, is this what being a "refined european" means?

[brigadista]

there is a practical news blackout= im not depending on the bbc to provide anything accurate-

given the current political dynamics of the region will be interesting to see what happens -

however the deaths of children and old people is not interesting just terrible and i dont see why the palestinian community do not have the right to defend themselves despite what we are being told

[graffic]

nobody is talking about hamas. shutup, is this what being a "refined european" means?

Yes coincidentally there have been national liberation struggles here too. However the IRA or Welsh resistance never started launching rockets into the sky with no regard for where or who it lands on.

There are different ways to go about things. I'm probably out of order making this comparison but I've felt strong injustice towards things before like recently the banks who have been charging when I go overdrawn. The banks have the power and all the angles covered and there's nothing I can do just like Israel has power over palestine. I can think about throwing a molotov cocktail at a bank or going on a protest and being violent, and those are things considered, but then It never happens because rationality kicks in.

The militants firing rockets are sadly a minority and the majority of Gazan's have to pay the price. You can't fire grad rockets to a city like Jerusalem and expect the IDF not to do anything.

The rockets are smuggled through Egypt and supplied by Iran. Iranians don't care about Gazan's or palestinians. They are in ideological war against Israel and the West.

The rockets aren't even aimed at IDF camps or disputed territory. They are aiming at central Israel and international city like Tel Aviv full of tourists. It's ludicrous behavior.

[#FF0000]

yeah I doubt lobbing rockets is going to do much on it's own to improve the problem Palestinians face but I have a very hard time believing that Hamas and Israel are anywhere near even on the ethical playing field. "Ohhh they are both so hateful". That's neat -- but meanwhile one is a western-backed apartheid state with modern military armaments and an actual military that regularly drops warheads on residentials and is, let's not forget, a racist settler state.

Taking this into consideration I have a very, very hard being upset at a Palestinian who faces the brutality of Israel on a daily basis decides he wants to lob some October Sky shit back -- no matter how useless it may be in the long run.

[blake 3:17]

yeah I doubt lobbing rockets is going to do much on it's own to improve the problem Palestinians face but I have a very hard time believing that Hamas and Israel are anywhere near even on the ethical playing field. "Ohhh they are both so hateful". That's neat -- but meanwhile one is a western-backed apartheid state with modern military armaments and an actual military that regularly drops warheads on residentials and is, let's not forget, a racist settler state.

Taking this into consideration I have a very, very hard being upset at a Palestinian who faces the brutality of Israel on a daily basis decides he wants to lob some October Sky shit back -- no matter how useless it may be in the long run.


They are cries of desperation from a people who are being destroyed as the whole world watches and the most powerful militaries are lined up against them.

Children can't go to school because the schools have been demolished. Doctors can't treat their patients because they don't have basic medical supplies.

The people living in Gaza are stuck in a prison where they are being bombed and shot by Israelis with weapons paid for by the United States and Canada.

[blake 3:17]

yeah I doubt lobbing rockets is going to do much on it's own to improve the problem Palestinians face but I have a very hard time believing that Hamas and Israel are anywhere near even on the ethical playing field. "Ohhh they are both so hateful". That's neat -- but meanwhile one is a western-backed apartheid state with modern military armaments and an actual military that regularly drops warheads on residentials and is, let's not forget, a racist settler state.

Taking this into consideration I have a very, very hard being upset at a Palestinian who faces the brutality of Israel on a daily basis decides he wants to lob some October Sky shit back -- no matter how useless it may be in the long run.


They are cries of desperation from a people who are being destroyed as the whole world watches and the most powerful militaries are lined up against them.

Children can't go to school because the schools have been demolished. Doctors can't treat their patients because they don't have basic medical supplies.

The people living in Gaza are stuck in a prison where they are being bombed and shot by Israelis with weapons paid for by the United States and Canada.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Yes coincidentally there have been national liberation struggles here too. However the IRA or Welsh resistance never started launching rockets into the sky with no regard for where or who it lands on.

Probably because neither Wales nor Northern Ireland have been repeatedly bombed by the British military.


There are different ways to go about things. I'm probably out of order making this comparison but I've felt strong injustice towards things before like recently the banks who have been charging when I go overdrawn. The banks have the power and all the angles covered and there's nothing I can do just like Israel has power over palestine. I can think about throwing a molotov cocktail at a bank or going on a protest and being violent, and those are things considered, but then It never happens because rationality kicks in.

I'd say there is an order of magnitude difference between being charged money for going overdrawn on one's account, and being subject to discrimination and violence at the hands of a foreign-backed settler state.


The militants firing rockets are sadly a minority and the majority of Gazan's have to pay the price.

Haven't resistance groups always been a minority of the population? Surely what really matters is whether the militants have popular support or not.


You can't fire grad rockets to a city like Jerusalem and expect the IDF not to do anything.

I'm pretty sure the militants realise that.


The rockets are smuggled through Egypt and supplied by Iran. Iranians don't care about Gazan's or palestinians. They are in ideological war against Israel and the West.

Actually, the state of Iran is engaged in a geopolitical struggle with the state of Israel, which is being supported another state unfriendly to Iran. I imagine that the average Iranian has more immediate concerns.


The rockets aren't even aimed at IDF camps or disputed territory. They are aiming at central Israel and international city like Tel Aviv full of tourists. It's ludicrous behavior.

Well, that's one criticism I might agree with, although perhaps someone with more knowledge of militant tactics and strategy can illuminate this discussion.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Yes coincidentally there have been national liberation struggles here too. However the IRA or Welsh resistance never started launching rockets into the sky with no regard for where or who it lands on.Nah, just blew up buildings and brutally enforced their own order in the catholic ghetto, intimidated people, exaccuted people, and so on. Also "terrorized" the British population to the ourage of "civilized" people everywhere.


There are different ways to go about things. I'm probably out of order making this comparison but I've felt strong injustice towards things before like recently the banks who have been charging when I go overdrawn. The banks have the power and all the angles covered and there's nothing I can do just like Israel has power over palestine. I can think about throwing a molotov cocktail at a bank or going on a protest and being violent, and those are things considered, but then It never happens because rationality kicks in.Yes this is soooo out of order. Palistinians aren't being overcharged. If someone took over your house and kept you locked in the garage, I wouldn't think less of you if you threw rocks at them - in fact, I'd think less of you if you didn't.


The militants firing rockets are sadly a minority and the majority of Gazan's have to pay the price. You can't fire grad rockets to a city like Jerusalem and expect the IDF not to do anything.They pay the price either way. The strategy and tactics are totally fair game for criticism, but this argument of yours is essentially: "the wife was asking for it, she should have known not to talk-back". "Those lynched civil-rights people should have known better to come down here and stir things up."


The rockets aren't even aimed at IDF camps or disputed territory. They are aiming at central Israel and international city like Tel Aviv full of tourists. It's ludicrous behavior.No it's struggle against occupation and this is what it looks like more or less, pretty consistantly in a settler-state type situation.

If I could wish an alternative into existance it would be that the uprisings of 2011 had become a coordinated pan-region working class movement based in the industrial centers of the region and against the regimes and that allied itself with Palistinian liberation. That would probably be the most realisticly possible "leftist-dream" situation for liberation in the short-term, but given the actual situation, giving a pass to Israel while criticizing Hamas is just condoning colonial ghettoization of a whole people.

[blake 3:17]

From the Guardian a few minutes ago:


However, Hamas officials in Gaza said any truce would be dependent on Israel agreeing to lift its long-term blockade of the territory and agree to end its policy of assassinations of Hamas leaders, conditions that Israel is unlikely to accept.

[brigadista]

From the Guardian a few minutes ago:

so the guardian are actually covering Gaza now? lol

[graffic]

Yes this is soooo out of order. Palistinians aren't being overcharged. If someone took over your house and kept you locked in the garage, I wouldn't think less of you if you threw rocks at them - in fact, I'd think less of you if you didn't.

No thats not a fair analogy. The palestinians have been offered their own state repeatedly but they turn it down because they want all of palestine for themselves. Arab leaders opposed Israel at the time it was created because they wanted to dominate palestine themselves and anti-Zionism was a vote winner.

Palestinians could go and live in Jordan or any other Arab states but the Arab states blame Israel for all their problems because thats what wins them votes. The Israeli's are teaching their kids songs about peace whilst Hamas and Hizbullah are bringing their kids up to say they want to be martyr's. That's not a difference in ideology. That's a different way of humanity.

[blake 3:17]

so the guardian are actually covering Gaza now? lol


Have they not been?

[Flying Purple People Eater]

No thats not a fair analogy. The palestinians have been offered their own state repeatedly but they turn it down because they want all of palestine for themselves. Arab leaders opposed Israel at the time it was created because they wanted to dominate palestine themselves and anti-Zionism was a vote winner.

Sources please.


Palestinians could go and live in Jordan or any other Arab states but the Arab states blame Israel for all their problems because thats what wins them votes. The Israeli's are teaching their kids songs about peace whilst Hamas and Hizbullah are bringing their kids up to say they want to be martyr's. That's not a difference in ideology. That's a difference in humanity.Is that.....racism I smell?

[brigadista]

Have they not been?

apologies for the sarcasm not trolling - but the independant have been better- guardian coverage on a level with the BBC

[Jimmie Higgins]

The Israeli's are teaching their kids songs about peace whilst Hamas and Hizbullah are bringing their kids up to say they want to be martyr's. That's not a difference in ideology. That's a different way of humanity.The ol' "savages" line eh? Clash of civilizations?

What are children learning?
tAjYAXh8pjM
YSZZKJp8Syw

Stop making excuses for apartheid - actually worse than apartheid in South Africa in many ways; because those oppressors needed black labor - Israel just wants to ghettoize and then push out Palestinians.


No thats not a fair analogy. The palestinians have been offered their own state repeatedly but they turn it down because they want all of palestine for themselves. Arab leaders opposed Israel at the time it was created because they wanted to dominate palestine themselves and anti-Zionism was a vote winner.:rolleyes: They also rebelled against the British before they created Israel. It's a "vote-getter" because people don't like to be forcibly removed and harassed and occupied. It was the PLO who promised to end the occupation before and they lost favor because they kept acting as a Vichy force, doing the policing of Palestine for Israel.

I don't think my comparison is off base at all. If someone has a gun and occupies your home, takes all your water and "offers" you the garage... well how sincere is that "negotiation" really?

[blake 3:17]

apologies for the sarcasm not trolling - but the independant have been better- guardian coverage on a level with the BBC

Thanks. There's a real crisis in journalism. I don't think any of the major Canadian papers are operating foreign bureaus. They sometimes put one or two somewhere in the world to follow a particular story or issue.

I just bookmarked the Independent. A subhead was "There is worse to come in Gaza".

[#FF0000]

No thats not a fair analogy. The palestinians have been offered their own state repeatedly but they turn it down because they want all of palestine for themselves.

Also because the two-state solution is a hella silly idea that pretty much just means the end of Palestine forever in the long run. Also the analogy still works. If someone said "YO LEMME GET THIS HOUSE BUT YOU CAN KEEP THE SHED" you'd be angry too, dogg.


Palestinians could go and live in Jordan or any other Arab states but the Arab states blame Israel for all their problems because thats what wins them votes. But they shouldn't have to, as they are being treated brutally and unjustly, and they are in the right -- they shouldn't have to be forced from their homes.


The Israeli's are teaching their kids songs about peace whilst Hamas and Hizbullah are bringing their kids up to say they want to be martyr's. That's not a difference in ideology. That's a different way of humanity.Wait, so no one in Israel is teaching their children to hate arabs and muslims?

Graffic, you constantly paint sides in monstrously large brushes and see things in flat black and white and in whatever shape you want to see them in, as opposed to how things actually are.

You are stupid and you would really benefit from some reflection and brutally honest introspection.

[#FF0000]

To admins: can we make it so every post graffic makes is accompanied by images of the aftermath of israeli bomb strikes please?

[black magick hustla]

israel bombing gaza and the west bank has nothing to do with hamas, hamas is just a convenient excuse. israel wants to ethnically cleanse palestine, it's the final stage of an almost century long project of millenarian zionists.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

tAjYAXh8pjM
YSZZKJp8Syw
Oh I'm going to destroy some of the kids at work with these. Thanks!

[l'Enfermé]

Graffic, please tell us how it's the Palestinians that "want all of Palestine". We're all very curious. Because for the last 65 years, it looks like all Israel has been doing is enroaching on Palestinian territory and ethnically cleansing Palestine of its indigenous population and repopulating it with settler-colonists from Europe and America.

http://i.imgur.com/JuqRq.jpg

[Let's Get Free]

Hamid Abu Daqqa was playing football in his Real Madrid shirt when he was shot through the stomach by IDF troops several weeks ago, before he could finish the second half. This was significant for the Palestinians and the wider Middle East, but not for anyone else. Not a single US broadcaster knows his name. Nor do they know Muhammad al-Hums, Ranan Arafat, Omar Mashharawi, Isam Abu al-Miza, Hiba Mashharawi Turk, Mahmoud Abu Sawawin, Marwan Abu al-Qumsan, Walid Abadla, Hanin Tafish, Faris Basyouni, or Muhammad Iyad Sadallah. These are just a few other pregnant women and elderly Palestinians killed in recent days by Israel. Not a single US broadcaster knows a single one of these names.

[cynicles]

Palestinians want all of Palestine? WHAT THE FUCK>!>!>!?!?!? HOW DARE THEY!?!?!?! Don't they know that what the white man says goes and the white man has bequeethed this land for colonialist settlers! What is wrong with these uppitty Palestinians!!???? And Arabs blaming Israel? Howdare they get upset about target assassinations adn bombings of their countries by Israel?!!? That's almost ridiculous as their opposition to Saudi and US meddling in their politics. I tell yah these 'third-worlders' are really starting to get on my nerve with this whole attitude of not wanting to take our shit.

*end sarcasm*

[Comrade #138672]

It is true that not all Jews are bad, and not all Palestinians are good. However, I think it is safe to say that how Israel has, and continues to, handle the situation is disgraceful. I always have and will continue to support the Palestinians in their fight against the jewish state of "Israel."I wouldn't really consider Israel a Jewish State. I'd rather call it a Zionist State.

Jewish and Palestinian workers should work together. They need to overthrow the government of Israel together and replace the Zionist State with a Jewish-Palestinian workers' State.

[Ocean Seal]

Hamas are fucking monsters. Have you heard the language they are using? They are describing things as "surprises" and saying things like "we've got a few more surprises for you". What sort of sick fuck uses language like that in war? They've also declared that every single Zionist on "palestinian" soil is a target. That's including women, children, tourists and people who have nothing to do with the conflict. What are they actually gaining firing rockets like mad pirates into a developed country at ordinary Israeli's trying to get on with their lives? It's not at all surprising Israeli's are behind the Gaza strikes not because of the massive inconvenience for their daily lives, or the sheer terror of hearing a siren and not knowing where the rocket will land, but also the insidiousness of a group of people who genuinely want to kill them and are actively trying to kill them as civilians because they happen to be Jewish and living in Israel.

Neither side is right and there is too much hatred on both side but I don't understand Hamas tactics of provoking the bully at all. Are they so filled with hate they don't care about the response they just want to fight, do they genuinely think they can defeat the IDF, are they deliberately coaxing Israel into responding to win international support from a humanitarian point of view. The problem is that anti-Zionism is a big vote winner in Arab countries. It was at the time when Israel was established and it's the same now.

If you guide yourself by the language of others and not actions...

[hetz]

israel bombing gaza and the west bank has nothing to do with hamas, hamas is just a convenient excuse. israel wants to ethnically cleanse palestine, it's the final stage of an almost century long project of millenarian zionists.
If they wanted to they could open the border with Egypt and then expel all Gazans in two days.

[graffic]

Graffic, you constantly paint sides in monstrously large brushes and see things in flat black and white and in whatever shape you want to see them in, as opposed to how things actually are.

You are stupid and you would really benefit from some reflection and brutally honest introspection.

The Israel Palestine conflict is intractable and will never be solved. However the Jews are not going back to Europe and Israel is there to stay so if parts of Arab/Muslim world want to indulge the fantasy of an Islamic state in palestine free of Jews they will just keep getting their asses kicked like they have been since Israel was established back in 1948.

Just because something is supported by US imperialism it doesn't make it automatically bad. Israel is one of those things. For example, US involvement in Europe defeated fascism at the end of WW2.

The Anti-Zionism developed by the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab Moslem world has exploited all of the features in the anti-semitic discourse. By an ironic twist of history, those who in the name of Islam claim to wage war on the West have appropriated its most loathsome product: hatred of Jews. Islamic fundamentalism currently represents one of the staunchest bastions of negationism, despite its having originated in Europe.

I've been there twice and I know more than enough about the country and it's conflict with palestinians from so many sources, in particular palestinians telling me about their personal experiences, and talking to Israeli's.

Some palestinians I spoke too said they wanted to be ruled by Israel but have their flag.

Needless to say, the problem is with the extremist settlers in the West bank and Israels excessive use of force which encourages more palestinians to become terroists.

[cynicles]

I wouldn't really consider Israel a Jewish State. I'd rather call it a Zionist State.

Jewish and Palestinian workers should work together. They need to overthrow the government of Israel together and replace the Zionist State with a Jewish-Palestinian workers' State.
[email protected]#$>[email protected]#>$>>>???????????? Really??? What you said makes absolutely no sense. Nationalist and relisious zionism advocate a jewish state, a sectarian ethnocratic jewish state, end of story. Your first statement completely contradicts itself.

In an ideal world where rose petals fall from the sky, in the real world the majority of jewish israelis support the ethnocratic status, its a reality. We can talk about jews and arabs and druze and armenians working together once the sectarian element has been extracted. If jewish israelis really wanted to work for a socialist society they would be calling for the dissollution of their ethnocracy, there is no symmetry in this conflict whatsoever. Therefore it's incumbant on the residents of the oppressor nation to step forward with the bold move(whether Israeli, American, British etc) and to not hide behind the empty rhetoric of "I don't support either side, I support the workers" or "The Israeli working class and the palestinian working class should work together". Just as men, white people and heterosexual have to be the ones to overcome their privileges here and support the oppressed Jewish israelis have to overcome their own privileges, it's not some equitable symmetrical conflict.

[cynicles]

The Israel Palestine conflict is intractable and will never be solved. However the Jews are not going back to Europe and Israel is there to stay so if parts of Arab/Muslim world want to indulge the fantasy of an Islamic state in palestine free of Jews they will just keep getting their asses kicked like they have been since Israel was established back in 1948.

Just because something is supported by US imperialism it doesn't make it automatically bad. Israel is one of those things. For example, US involvement in Europe defeated fascism at the end of WW2.

The Anti-Zionism developed by the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab Moslem world has exploited all of the features in the anti-semitic discourse. By an ironic twist of history, those who in the name of Islam claim to wage war on the West have appropriated its most loathsome product: hatred of Jews. Islamic fundamentalism currently represents one of the staunchest bastions of negationism, despite its having originated in Europe.

I've been there twice and I know more than enough about the country and it's conflict with palestinians from so many sources, in particular palestinians telling me about their personal experiences, and talking to Israeli's.

Some palestinians I spoke too said they wanted to be ruled by Israel but have their flag.

Needless to say, the problem is with the extremist settlers in the West bank and Israels excessive use of force which encourages more palestinians to become terroists.
Did you just compare anti-fascist military engangement with material and political support for ethnic cleansing, colonization and an ethnocratic state?

[#FF0000]

The Israel Palestine conflict is intractable and will never be solved. However the Jews are not going back to Europe and Israel is there to stay so if parts of Arab/Muslim world want to indulge the fantasy of an Islamic state in palestine free of Jews they will just keep getting their asses kicked like they have been since Israel was established back in 1948.

1) Not every anti-israeli actor in "that arab worlds" wants that though
2) lol Hezbollah kicked the everloving shit out of the IDF six years ago.



Just because something is supported by US imperialism it doesn't make it automatically bad. Israel is one of those things.

That isn't my reason for being so critical of Israel. I'm more concerned with the fact that Israel is a racist settler state bent on genocide.



The Anti-Zionism developed by the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab Moslem world has exploited all of the features in the anti-semitic discourse.

I think this is a generalization. No doubt at all that there is a lot of antisemitism from groups like Hamas -- but, uh, I consider what Israel is doing to be a lot worse than what Hamas is only saying.


Needless to say, the problem is with the extremist settlers in the West bank and Israels excessive use of force which encourages more palestinians to become terroists.

And that they are pretty much sanctioned by the state of Israel itself lol.

[Avanti]

soon

the entire world will be divided

between israelis

and palestinians

we who are failing to live inside the system

or thrown out

will all become palestinians

while all those who adjust well

will become israelis

they'll attack our neighborhoods

with drones and killing squads

we respond by crude missiles

and dumpster diving

the intifadah is global

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

soon

the entire world will be divided

between israelis

and palestinians

we who are failing to live inside the system

or thrown out

will all become palestinians

while all those who adjust well

will become israelis

they'll attack our neighborhoods

with drones and killing squads

we respond by crude missiles

and dumpster diving

the intifadah is global

In other words we're fucked.

[Avanti]

In other words we're fucked.

yes

haven't I said that

for a long while?

[graffic]

Did you just compare anti-fascist military engangement with material and political support for ethnic cleansing, colonization and an ethnocratic state?

Israel doesn't colonize anyone. All of the land it's grabbed has been won in defensive manouvre's and most of it has since been given back. Why is the ethnicity of Israel an issue?

Why is a load of holocaust survivors establishing their own state in the middle east a problem? Answer: Large parts of the Muslim world have a massive problem with Jews living in Israel/Palestine. And they've been waging wars against them and getting their asses kicked ever since Israel was established back in 1948.

You can either support the solution of Israel being dismantled and Jews going back to Europe and US. Or oppose a large portion of the Muslim world and hope they change their ideology. Neither position will ever happen and the conflict is therefore intractable.

[Avanti]

there's another solution too

give sweden or denmark to the palestinians

or the state of georgia in the united states

i was once a palestinian

i was born in the rashidieh refugee camp

then i was moved to europe

in the winter of 1980

after being adopted

by two white parents

so they could keep me

as their pet

[GoddessCleoLover]

Bourgeois liberals usually support the notion that a state ought to be secular and democratic rather than based on religion or ethnicity, yet they fail to hold Israel to that standard. That is the height of hypocrisy.

[Avanti]

bourgeois liberalism

in itself

is a sadistic joke

you have all the rights to a voice

but no right to have the means

to make your voice heard

[GoddessCleoLover]

Bourgeois laws in their majestic equality forbid the rich and poor alike from sleeping on park benches.:lol:

[The Machine]

I think that in this issue, like a lot of issues, a lot of leftists tend to oversimplify it. Yeah the IDF's fucked but Hamas is far from innocent. It's silly when activists get surprised that the IDF is fucking with Gaza when Hamas is shooting rockets into civilian areas. Like the fuck else do they expect to happen? Fuck Israel, but fuck Hamas almost as bad. It's not the clear cut good guy anti imperialist patriots versus bad guy imperialist jews that a lot of you seem to make it out to be. Also theres the elephant in the room that if Egypt or any other country in the region gave a fuck about the palestinians rather than just wanting to see them be a thorn in israels side they probably wouldnt be in this situation.

[Positivist]

It doesn't matter which side you support, sporadically firing rockets into civilian area's is irresponsible behavior. I don't condone the Israeli response if it results in palestinian deaths but firing rockets aimlessly at civilians is not a proportionate or rational response to the oppression they suffer. Hamas don't want to go down the diplomatic route because they know they will lose because the majority of the world has accepted Israel's existence and knows the Jews are not going to go back to Europe.

Uhhhhh no. The US has accepted this and pretty much no one else.

[hetz]

The US has accepted this and pretty much no one else.
I'm pretty sure most countries recognize Israel and have diplomatic relations with it.

[graffic]

Bourgeois liberals usually support the notion that a state ought to be secular and democratic rather than based on religion or ethnicity, yet they fail to hold Israel to that standard. That is the height of hypocrisy.

Yes ethnicity is an obvious factor in Israel. It's hardly surprising there is more of a nationalist culture in Israel than in other developed countries because of the conflict. The violent opposition mounted by Arab states and peoples has to this day shaped the physical and political landscape in which Zionism has implemented its ideals.

Although religious institutions were officially recognised by the state, religion as a value system had only a minor influence on the culture of the new Jewish society in Palestine.

It is the Anti-Zionism developed by the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab Moslem world that has exploited all the features in racism and religious intolerance.

Islamic fundamentalism currently represents one of the staunchest bastions of negationism, despite its having originated in Europe.

[Czcibor]

Neither side is right and there is too much hatred on both side but I don't understand Hamas tactics of provoking the bully at all. Are they so filled with hate they don't care about the response they just want to fight, do they genuinely think they can defeat the IDF, are they deliberately coaxing Israel into responding to win international support from a humanitarian point of view. The problem is that anti-Zionism is a big vote winner in Arab countries. It was at the time when Israel was established and it's the same now.

You don't understand Hamas strategy? Let's think about their choices:
a) signing a (somewhat humiliating) peace with Israel - outrage of their population, loosing power in next election, civil war or simply be killed by hardliners like Anwar Sadat was in Egypt;
b) don't sign anything, but keep effectively a cease fire - because of not only blockade but also Hamas corruption and mismanagement local population would try to get rid of them;
c) provoke another clash with barrage rocket fire against Israeli cities, hide behind civilian population, complain all over the world about heavy civilian losses and unite your nation around yourself.

Assuming that you are in position of Hamas and don't care too much about losses of civilians, but want to keep at power at all cost, strategy "c" actually makes sense.