help with argument - "modern liberalism is based on communitarianism"

[Catma]

"...like communism and socialism."

This wouldn't be such a hard argument if I didn't have to explain tons of things just to reach his nad assumptions. Basiclaly I'm looking for a quick and easy way to show that "modern liberalism" is capitalist, private-property centered, individualistic, etc.

Any ideas?

[doesn't even make sense]

Well if you're talking to a conservative you could talk about how liberalism exalts individuality over community values and standards with regard to social issues. You could even make a case for liberal welfare policies (or a conservative caricature thereof) being a relationship between government and the individual as a client with no real community component to speak of. I think this might speak to the common conservative sentiment (their politics consist of little other than sentiment) of revulsion towards the dependence welfare programs are supposed to foster, such programs are after all rather one sided. Contrast to a socialist program which is all about solving communal problems through communal action.

I dunno, these kinds of debates tend to go nowhere.

[Jimmie Higgins]

"...like communism and socialism."

This wouldn't be such a hard argument if I didn't have to explain tons of things just to reach his nad assumptions. Basiclaly I'm looking for a quick and easy way to show that "modern liberalism" is capitalist, private-property centered, individualistic, etc.

Any ideas?
if you are debating a right-winger or something, try and take them out of the world of their abstracted political concepts. Theses kinds of false arguments and reworkings of several centuries of development and history to fit modern myths and conceptions can only either work on a larege macro scale (thus generalizing everything to the point of meaninglessness) or on a abstracted micro scale ("If i give you some of my candy, I will expect something from it in return... see capitalism is human nature") but not both. So get him to talk about specific things, rather than abstract categories created by the right to bend reality around their weird conceptions of it.

A quick retort could be that FDR, who would be considered "socialist" by right-wing standards today (and is sometimes, but usually only internally among right-wingers - like on right-wing radio - because a lot of people in the US like FDR and his programs) thought of himself as "the best friend the profit-system ever had".

[Catma]

Thanks. This is an odd fellow, quite bright and well educated, but right wing and a fox-news watcher (?!) At his level of intelligence I expect the wall street journal or the economist, but he seems content to drink the foetor that drips down into the gutters. I normally wouldn't bother discussing anything with him, but there are a lot of facebook observers on this thread and I kind of stepped into the argument.

Here's what I said:


Your article compares classical liberalism to communitarianism - two things that everyone can agree are very different. The problem is, what is "modern liberalism"? You can't exactly pick up a book on it. You'll get different definitions all the way from Ann Coulter to Obama to Chomsky.

The idea of modern liberalism pretty much means the (mainstream) American left, which means the Democratic party. A casual glance might make it seem like they have a communitarian bent based on the things they say - Hillary "it takes a village" Clinton or Barack "You didn't build that" Obama, for example. But this is just meat for the base. It is a sop thrown to people whose opinions don't matter and who have no power.

Look at the actions of the party instead. With a filibuster-proof majority, the signature action of this party was to enshrine privately owned, employer-based health insurance at the heart of our healthcare system. The paltry subsidies will never keep up with inflation, or even the prices set by insurers which are completely unregulated. Not even a weak and sickly ghost of a public option was added by this party completely in control of the reins of power. Of course, some of the left base, which may indeed be communitarian-minded, cried about this, and then voted for Obama this month (see People Whose Opinions Don't Matter.)

There is no relevant skein of communitarianism in the American left, ie; "modern liberalism".

[doesn't even make sense]

Seems legit. I totally know what you mean about arguing with people on facebook who you otherwise have no reason to talk to for the benefit of third parties.

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

"communitarianism" is such a bullshit term and this whole "individual vs. communal" dichotomy is nothing but a libertarian talking- point with no basis in reality anyway. None of us live in a social vaccum, not even the most solitary persons. Yeah, it´s that simple.

[cynicles]

American political terminology is confusing enough as it is, stupid TNR, you could spend weeks trying to untangle that set of xmas lights.