KKE members twice in few days GD nazis

[Delenda Carthago]

I post this for arcive reasons.

Some days ago some KNE members were posting antifascist posters outside a school in Thesaloniki, Lagadas. They were attacked by two GD members, one of them has the karate school of the town. Immidiatly, workers from the Agno milk factory which is near by arrived, disarming the two nazis from the globs they were holding, giving them the beat down aftermath. After that there was a demo in the area to make the incident known.
http://www.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=7128898


Yesterday, a GD fascist worker in the factory of Recycle in Crete, punched a co-worker of his, member of the union, immigrant. The union members arrived at the same time, giving him a taste of "why you dont do that shit on factories that are organised with PAME". It is interesting that this factory had a more than 100 days strike some months ago, victorious, and that this guy had repeatedly went to his co-workers grabbing a knife threating them to stop the strike. Something that e continued after the end of the strike, with the total support of the employer.


http://www.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=7138000


*the missing word from the title is "isolate", since we dont beat down, we "isolate". :P

[l'Enfermé]

I think, that of the "orthodox" Marxists/Kautsky-revivalists on this board, I'm probably the only one who is fond of the KKE and not so fond of SYRIZA.

[AntifaArnhem]

I think most people here are not that fond of both of them, not Syriza nor PAME.. Me included.

But I must say, when they do good stuff they do good stuff and I'm not arguing there.

When a police dog bites the cop holding the leash, it's a good dog in my eyes ^^

[Niall]

gonna be ignorant here.
KKE? PAME?

[MaximMK]

gonna be ignorant here.
KKE? PAME?

KKE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Greece

PAME
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAME

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

I think, that of the "orthodox" Marxists/Kautsky-revivalists on this board, I'm probably the only one who is fond of the KKE and not so fond of SYRIZA.

I can speak here for myself as an "orthodox" Marxist, that I of course do not feel more fond of Syriza than KKE. Syriza are in their majority reformist left anti-communists as we have seen, while KKE are Communists. It might seem like we are more against KKE than Syriza, but that is only because KKE are closer to us and the polemic is greater. No one has any real hopes for Syriza as a revolutionary party i think, but it is the biggest socialist party in Greece which is of relevance because that means that they have the workers that we have to win for us in a non-revisionist revolutionary party.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I think, that of the "orthodox" Marxists/Kautsky-revivalists on this board, I'm probably the only one who is fond of the KKE and not so fond of SYRIZA.
Wait, there are folks who support that disgusting congruation of trickery? SYRIZA was made with one purpose in mind; to hijack leftist sympathies and draw people away from more radical parties. There have been numerous examples of how SYRIZA is piggy-backing off of the KKE's successes, and even more stories of how they are a part of the parliamentary sect keeping radical groups subdued.

Honestly, they are not even communist-sympathetic. The shits would gladly support the Golden Dawn if the KKE started to swell in number.

[Sasha]

Wait, there are folks who support that disgusting congruation of trickery? SYRIZA was made with one purpose in mind; to hijack leftist sympathies and draw people away from more radical parties. There have been numerous examples of how SYRIZA is piggy-backing off of the KKE's successes, and even more stories of how they are a part of the parliamentary sect keeping radical groups subdued.

Honestly, they are not even communist-sympathetic. The shits would gladly support the Golden Dawn if the KKE started to swell in number.


bullshit, give us a bunch of examples and i'll give you twice as much the other way..

[hetz]

bullshit, give us a bunch of examples and i'll give you twice as much the other way.. Here's a pretty... graphic one. :laugh:
http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2012/2012-10-24-lathroxireia-syriza


This is not the first time this has happened, but this time SYRIZA has crossed the line by choosing to adorn a poster which it issued for a meeting organized on the 19/10 in Ireland with the photograph of the banner which the KKE had put up on the Acropolis in May 2010, on which the slogan “ Peoples of Europe Rise Up” was written. Of course they took care to delete the signature of the “KKE” from the banner, in order to appropriate an initiative which had great resonance. To be accurate, there were two banners, one with the slogan in English and the other in Greek. This photograph became one of the most recognizable images from the struggle of the Greek people during the crisis, both at a European and global level.


http://www.left.gr/upload/10781_1.jpg

[Sasha]

Here's a pretty... graphic one. :laugh:
http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2012/2012-10-24-lathroxireia-syriza




http://www.left.gr/upload/10781_1.jpg

and how is the untited left alliance a member of Syriza? you have one shred of evidence that the syriza speaker suggested or even aporoved the "poster"? ("poster" because its clearly a poorly done internet picture, i doubt this thing even got printed)
but yeah, speaking at an foreign event that makes a stupid poster is clearly on par with letting the GD nazi's speak and propagandise at a strike under your control (http://www.revleft.com/vb/kke-pame-working-t168207/index.html), guarding the parliament, forming a line in front of the riot police, physically attacking protesters and by all indications have an tactical-pact with the riot-police (http://www.revleft.com/vb/kke-assisting-police-t163031/index.html) let alone the countless examples of KNE (KKE youth) assisting cops, cheering state repression of "fellow" leftists etc etc.

and sorry, when dropping a few banners in a catchy photo-op stunt is your "success" in what is essentially the brink of a new civil-war.... :rolleyes:

but lets not turn this into another sectarian shit fest, good that the KKE/PAME members are taking a stand against the fash, lets hope their leadership will finally get down from the fence as well..

[l'Enfermé]

Yeah, yeah, psycho, those fucking KKE/PAME assholes, defending their demonstration before the parliament(and not defending the parliament itself, as the lie goes)against Anarchist provocateurs that toss Molotov cocktails on demonstrating workers.

And AntifaArnhem, if you consider 800,000 class-conscious communist-oriented PAME workers "dogs" because they don't conform to your precious Anarchist ideology which stems from petty-bourgeois mentality, you are the fucking dog here.

[Sasha]

Yeah, yeah, psycho, those fucking KKE/PAME assholes, defending their demonstration before the parliament(and not defending the parliament itself, as the lie goes)

lie, all the photo's and video show that the clashes between the KNE and the rest happened on the road leading up towards the parliament while the PAME demonstration was all firmly down at Syntagma sq. there was nothing between the KKE-militants line and parliament but riot-cops
http://www.metamute.org/sites/www.metamute.org/files/KKE-Stalinists-defend-Parliament-Oct-19-20-2011.jpg


against Anarchist provocateurs that toss Molotov cocktails on demonstrating workers.lie, the KNE attacked the pacifist civil-disobedience "we wont pay!" movement who wanted to push towards the riot police line, only after that the anarchists and anti-authoritarian movement got involved, the only people targetted where the club wielding "cops in everything but name" pictured above and rightly so, when you do a cops work you should expect a cops pay.

when you have to resort to lies you know that the KKE actions where indefensible.

[Ravachol]

God not this again...

Let's just say this whole 20th of October thing should be a clear indication why 'big leftie get togethers' and 'popular fronts' are bullshit and should be a lesson to all revolutionaries in their respective countries.

[Delenda Carthago]

And just to think that "Psycho" is a mod in here...:laugh:

[Ostrinski]

Why can't the KKE supporters/members just acknowledge that it was wrong? Not that hard folks. It was wrong, it's all you have to fucking say. If not having loyalty to all an organization's actions amounts to betrayal, then that is indicative of the undemocratic and opportunistic nature of the party's structure and leadership.

[Delenda Carthago]

Why can't the KKE supporters/members just acknowledge that it was wrong? Not that hard folks. It was wrong, it's all you have to fucking say. If not having loyalty to all an organization's actions amounts to betrayal, then that is indicative of the undemocratic and opportunistic nature of the party's structure and leadership.
Beating the nazis up, all this?:confused:

[Jimmie Higgins]

God not this again...

Let's just say this whole 20th of October thing should be a clear indication why 'big leftie get togethers' and 'popular fronts' are bullshit and should be a lesson to all revolutionaries in their respective countries.Frankly I don't know anything really about the organizing that went into this, but from afar, the above is not the lesson I drew from it. Is the problem really that forces got together, or that people had different agendas and viewpoints and didn't actually have a united strategy? Maybe just that groups that have opposing views about things and act only on their internal decision-making processes rather than finding a balance between a united action and their own political voice and tactics.

Then again this is why I would favor united-front strategies, rather than popular front ones where political differences are papered-over resulting in either the whole movement following the larger political groupings - or in these differences actually then playing out on the streets rather than during the organizing and decision-making process.

It seems like the KKE doesn't want to participate in the larger movement, they want themselves to be that larger movement. From what I saw when I went to Athens and some of what I've read, they hold their own "public assemblies" their own rallies and even their own occupations. So when KKE get attacked by fash, then they mobilize apparently. Sectarianism from anyone is poison in Greece's situation - not saying the KKE are the only ones engaging in that, but they are the largest organization that seems to act that way almost as strategy.

[AntifaArnhem]

And AntifaArnhem, if you consider 800,000 class-conscious communist-oriented PAME workers "dogs" because they don't conform to your precious Anarchist ideology which stems from petty-bourgeois mentality, you are the fucking dog here.

That is not why I called them dogs, just read some of Psycho's posts in this thread and there you have the reason i called them dogs. Pretty accurate comparison if you ask me.

[Ostrinski]

Nah the beating up Nazis thing is cool

[Ravachol]

It seems like the KKE doesn't want to participate in the larger movement, they want themselves to be that larger movement.


This is no more than the logical result of the notion of vanguardism. I don't get why a lot of people insist on either united fronts or popular fronts or whatever.

I have no common cause with the KKE, its strategic imperatives or its siblings throughout Europe. I don't think they're communists.

That doesn't mean, on the other hand, that I don't think their individual members (much like trade unionists or liberal workers or whatever) cannot come to constitute a part of the communist tendency (as a broad movement that elaborates itself in a certain praxis as opposed to hegemonic sect politics). But if this happens, this necessitates a break with their institutions, whether workplace, trade union or party.

For there to be any form of 'unity' (in whatever incarnation) there has to be common ground. This common ground can exist within (but not outside) particular conflicts (ie. standing together with trade unionist workers during a wildcat strike) or it can exist on the basis of a shared orientation (ie. those I consider to be communists, which the KKE is not). Any illusions about trying to fit squares through round holes just result in a big cryfest.



From what I saw when I went to Athens and some of what I've read, they hold their own "public assemblies" their own rallies and even their own occupations. So when KKE get attacked by fash, then they mobilize apparently. Sectarianism from anyone is poison in Greece's situation - not saying the KKE are the only ones engaging in that, but they are the largest organization that seems to act that way almost as strategy.

Sectarianism implies unnecessary secession from an otherwise unified whole, something that is, indeed, by definition unnecessary. The thing is, I don't consider myself to be part of the same thing the KKE considers itself to be part of. I'll gladly position myself against them and their ilk. Sure, I can stand next to them when smashing fascists, but that does not mean I will move 1 inch back in order to maintain false 'antifascist unity', that bourgeois construct that always drowned the workers in their own blood, defending capitalist democracy against capitalist fascism (and failing miserably at that too). One need only look at the policies of the PCI during Mussolini's rise to power, that of the Spanish popular front,etc. to see where that leaves the revolutionary impulse.



The defeat of the revolutionary movement was not, as Stalinists always complain, due to its lack of unity. It was defeated because the civil war within its ranks was not worked out with enough force. The crippling effects of the systematic confusion between hostis and enemy are self-evident, whether it be the tragedy of the Soviet Union or the groupuscular comedy.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Sectarianism implies unnecessary secession from an otherwise unified whole, something that is, indeed, by definition unnecessary. The thing is, I don't consider myself to be part of the same thing the KKE considers itself to be part of.:blink:Your not part of the working class or resistance to austerity?

I think what you mean is that you don't think their strategy and ultimate aims are the same as yours. Fine, I'd agree they I don't think they want - or could achieve - worker's power as I conceive of it either.


This is no more than the logical result of the notion of vanguardism.Organizing radicals (a vanguard) =/= sectarianism. In fact, in the US some groups of "anti-authoritarian horizontalists" now acting in highly sectarian ways that rival the most silly Lenin-cults of the 1970s. I don't think that it's a natural result of "anti-authoritarian" politics either.

The sectarianism of the KKE isn't in trying to organize radicals, it's that they are trying to artificially assume that their existing organization is the vanguard - when they don't have that much support in outside their own organizations from other left forces. To become an organic vanguard, they would have to win the confidence of all these forces - which would mean, "dirtying their hands" by actually engaging in non-KKE events and protests on an equal footing. Sectarianism may be common among so-called vanguard groups, but it is also common outside of them... in fact I'd say that sectarianism is counter to actually building an vehicle for and by radical forces in society.


I'll gladly position myself against them and their ilk. Sure, I can stand next to them when smashing fascists, but that does not mean I will move 1 inch back in order to maintain false 'antifascist unity', that bourgeois constructLol, are you sure you're against united-front tactics, because that's pretty much what you are describing as the right course to take:lol:


That doesn't mean, on the other hand, that I don't think their individual members (much like trade unionists or liberal workers or whatever) cannot come to constitute a part of the communist tendency (as a broad movement that elaborates itself in a certain praxis as opposed to hegemonic sect politics). But if this happens, this necessitates a break with their institutions, whether workplace, trade union or party.This is also the other side of the united-front strategy. When the dominant forces are reformist, as they usually are, smaller radical groups actually get to present their ideas and tactics and battle the tactics of the trade-union or reformist leadership which then may allow rank and file workers to compare which strategies seem best, and if the reformist ones fail, then the radical ones have a better chance of gaining more credibility among militants who may not be totally revolutionary yet but have revolutionary needs such as to beat back austerity or fascism.

[Delenda Carthago]

Sure, I can stand next to them when smashing fascists, but that does not mean I will move 1 inch back in order to maintain false 'antifascist unity', that bourgeois construct that always drowned the workers in their own blood, defending capitalist democracy against capitalist fascism (and failing miserably at that too). One need only look at the policies of the PCI during Mussolini's rise to power, that of the Spanish popular front,etc. to see where that leaves the revolutionary impulse.

Revleft is the only place in the wholewidewooorld that KKE would be accused for "antifascist unity" with bourgeois forces and for Popular Fronts.

Speacially considering we are talkin about a country that everyone else has fall under that specific political line, accusing KKE for not wanting to participate.
:lol:

Its so surreal, I love it!:tt1:

[Philosophos]

I think, that of the "orthodox" Marxists/Kautsky-revivalists on this board, I'm probably the only one who is fond of the KKE and not so fond of SYRIZA.

I'm sorry but I can't agree... There are indeed lots of people supporting SYRIZA but this is because they don't know about the real left. The rest of the people that know about left theories they don't support KKE because they believe it is a sell out or they have to change their tactics (they can't understand that most of the people don't have a clue about the communist theory and they keep talking with difficult words and complicated meanings. I had to become 18 years old and start studying communism to finally understand what they wanted to say).

But anyway the real left people prefer KKE than SYRIZA.

[Ravachol]

:blink:Your not part of the working class or resistance to austerity?

I think what you mean is that you don't think their strategy and ultimate aims are the same as yours. Fine, I'd agree they I don't think they want - or could achieve - worker's power as I conceive of it either.


Yeah, that's more or less what I meant, though I'm not in favor of worker's power, I'm in favor of the self-abolition of the working class, which is something different (and not just semantically) but fair enough, that's a different discussion.




The sectarianism of the KKE isn't in trying to organize radicals, it's that they are trying to artificially assume that their existing organization is the vanguard - when they don't have that much support in outside their own organizations from other left forces. To become an organic vanguard, they would have to win the confidence of all these forces - which would mean, "dirtying their hands" by actually engaging in non-KKE events and protests on an equal footing.


When is 'enough support' actually 'enough'? And what of those who refuse to engage with the 'vanguard' even after this threshold has been reached?



Lol, are you sure you're against united-front tactics, because that's pretty much what you are describing as the right course to take:lol:


That's not how the united front is usually advocated then, it usually involves joining together with other parties and workers' organisation in the defense of the 'most basic interests of the working class', it merges revolutionaries and non-revolutionaries in a non-agression pact. That's not what I'm advocating.

What I meant was, sure, if there happens to be a clash which involves the KKE and GD, I'll stand next to the KKE members engaging GD scum. But that doesn't mean that I'd subscribe to any politics of cooperation or non-agression with them.



Revleft is the only place in the wholewidewooorld that KKE would be accused for "antifascist unity" with bourgeois forces and for Popular Fronts.


That's not what I said, read a little closer. I said that I would not consider the theoretical case of a united front (which is different from a popular front) between the KKE and other elements of the radical left/revolutionary milieu. I called united front politics a 'bourgeois construct', that is not the same as saying the KKE is currently engaging in a united front with the bourgeoisie (though I do think the KKE represent capital's left-wing).

So you misread what I said. Big woop.

[human strike]

Nah the beating up Nazis thing is cool

It makes a nice change from: http://libcom.org/blog/greek-stalinists-welcome-fascist-involvement-workers-dispute-27022012

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

:laugh::crying:

[Grenzer]

I think, that of the "orthodox" Marxists/Kautsky-revivalists on this board, I'm probably the only one who is fond of the KKE and not so fond of SYRIZA.

Not the only one.

I dislike the KKE for being nationalistic Stalinists, but I fucking hate Syriza. Syriza is a just an openly bourgeois, pro-capitalist party. A lot of people are peddling some absolutely disgusting tripe that Syriza is a "workers' party"(perhaps in the same way that the Democratic party could be considered an ostensibly workers' party due to its union support). It is simply mind boggling that so many of these liberals and social-democrats would call themselves Leninists.

Lenin, in addressing this sort of anti-communist opportunism, summed it up aptly:


Whether or not a party is really a political party of the workers does not depend solely upon a membership of workers, but also upon the men that lead it, and the content of its actions and political tactics. Only this latter determines whether we really have before us a political party of the proletariat.

Collected Works, Vol. 5, pp. 452-453

Those who advocate electoral support to Syriza are displaying the most vile and disgusting opportunism, menshevism, liquidationism, and anti-communism able to be conceived by the human mind.

The KKE is a nationalist, reformist, and thoroughly opportunist venture. However, a dual policy should be advocated in Greece: a limited, conditional electoral support of Syriza as well as simultaneously the creation of an explicitly revolutionary Marxist party on the basis of programmatic unity and proletarian class independence.

Those of us with a knowledge of Marxism and revolutionary politics can correctly identify the KKE for what it is: a counter-revolutionary organization hell bent on a utopian vision of national management of capital. However, this is not the case for the broad masses of workers, who do not have class consciousness and an understanding of revolutionary politics. In their eyes, a vote for the KKE is a vote for revolution.

In light of this fact, limited support for the KKE electorally may be warranted while at the same time pursuing a vigorous policy of criticism from the left and exposing the KKE reformists for the con artists that they are.

With the successful creation of a genuinely revolutionary workers' party(if that ever happens), the workers will be shed of their illusions and abandon the Stalinists. It is an unfortunate and distasteful tactic, but it is critical to pursue a path of realism and revolutionary politics without falling prey to utopian dreamings of a revolutionary situation which does not, in fact, exist in Greece at this time.

[Delenda Carthago]

but I fucking hate Syriza. Syriza is a just an openly bourgeois, pro-capitalist party. A lot of people are peddling some absolutely disgusting tripe that Syriza is a "workers' party"(perhaps in the same way that the Democratic party could be considered an ostensibly workers' party due to its union support). It is simply mind boggling that so many of these liberals and social-democrats would call themselves Leninists.

However, a dual policy should be advocated in Greece: a limited, conditional electoral support of Syriza as well as simultaneously the creation of an explicitly revolutionary Marxist party on the basis of programmatic unity and proletarian class independence.


:laugh: nuff said...

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Syriza is a just an openly bourgeois, pro-capitalist party. A lot of people are peddling some absolutely disgusting tripe that Syriza is a "workers' party"(perhaps in the same way that the Democratic party could be considered an ostensibly workers' party due to its union support)

No. The Democratic Party is an unabashed Bourgeois Party that merely plays the Social-Democratic role. The US' Democratic Party is about to implement austerity on American people while Syriza campaigns against austerity. Will Syriza degenerate to a capitalist Social-Democratic party as well? Yes, no doubt about it.
But I don't see the current relevance of what it might do in the future, the point is that it now is is a party that goes against the will of the majority of the European Bourgeoisie in the interest of Greek workers. At this point I am not sure of what the correct position should be towards Syriza because I am not updated on the Syriza party's positions.

To be honest, all this talk is annoying. What needs to happen now in Greece is a massive arming of workers, formation of a parallel workers State(!) that will be able to rival the (seemingly inevitable [at this point] fascist government and) Fascist State in the next handful months. At the moment it does not seem like some nice little anti-austerity Social-Democratic party like Syriza will have any chance to govern with an existing State that is being infiltrated by Fascists. Worker cadres need to be produced right now.

[Drosophila]

But I don't see the current relevance of what it might do in the future, the point is that it now is is a party that goes against the will of the majority of the European Bourgeoisie in the interest of Greek workers.

I think Ghost's point is that Syriza, as a party drawing mass worker support (but still not a workers party), is salvageable. That's why a serious revolutionary Marxist party needs to be there for when (if?) the Greek workers realize Syriza's failure. Critical support should be given to Syriza, only because they do attract the masses of workers and would be far easier to salvage than the KKE or any other party in Greece at the moment.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

I think Ghost's point is that Syriza, as a party drawing mass worker support (but still not a workers party), is salvageable. That's why a serious revolutionary Marxist party needs to be there for when (if?) the Greek workers realize Syriza's failure. Critical support should be given to Syriza, only because they do attract the masses of workers and would be far easier to salvage than the KKE or any other party in Greece at the moment.

Yeah, well, I want a mass communist revolutionary party everywhere as well, but that does not exist in Greece at the moment.