College Greek System - Tribalism, Capitalism in College

[ComingUpForAir]

In my college years I hated the greek system, which essentially was capitalism in college.. groups of people who excluded others and divided them into tribes. I hated tribalism and also noticed the nihilistic hedonism and group-think that was being bred into college students. I've spent a good deal analyzing it.. wanting to join for the girls.. honestly could have if I wasn't so wrapped up in the truth and ideology..etc. Anyway I just wanted to see how everyone feels about the Greek system.. it seems to me like it's a manifestation of capitalism on our college lives.. always hated it, never thought it was necessary... what are your thoughts, feelings, experiences with it? Hated hitting on girls and finding out that they belong to some tribe.. often made it harder to date them by association..

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

The greek system pretty much annihilated meaningful radicalism in post secondary institutions. It also ensures getting laid, so.....

[Blake's Baby]

What's 'the Greek system'? Is that like fraternities, Delta Tau Chi and all that?

i have to admit my knowedge of fraternities is almost entirely derived from 'Animal House'. I assumed it was a fairly accurate prtrayal of student life in the US though.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Yes, "the Greek system" = college fraternities.

Fraternities aren't big in every school...I went to a major state university when I was in college and, while fraternities did exist, they maintained a pretty low-key presence & membership was very low in them, compared to other schools. In some schools it is a "big deal", though. Honestly I've never really thought that the institution was worth wasting a thought over, seems pretty inconsquential to me. I'd be pretty interested to know how it "annihilated meaningful radicalism".

[Blake's Baby]

I went to two universities in the UK, where we don't have fraternities, and student radicalism was pretty lacking in both of them. Maybe it's not the fraternities that do it.

[jookyle]

My impression was that greek life wasn't some type of modern tribalism but a way of imparting social elitism on the youth. Some frats/sororities are harder to get into others for various reason. Some only take rich kids, some only take attractive girls, etc. It simply encourages social elitism. I belong to this club so I'm better than you. It's why they haze newcomers, they have to know their place. And the kind of power that gets displayed by these people over those who are rushing are sometimes just disgustingly cruel (I know of one at my cousins college that makes the rushes have sex with the their twin frat). Especially in the ones that are national prestigious, where people really will sacrifice themselves a great deal just to get in.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

(I know of one at my cousins college that makes the rushes have sex with the their twin frat).

The doubts i held against my porn have been repudiated. Thank you.

[Soomie]

I don't like fraternities or sororities. I have a few friends who belong to both, and after hearing the horrible stories that they tell, I have no idea why anyone would want to join them. One fraternity on my campus was recently banned from campus because they lured newcomers into the attic of their fraternity house and locked them up there for days without food and water, and would go up there every few hours to hit them with a horse whip. Colleges say that there is a no haze policy, but sororities and fraternities still do them in secrecy and are only punished if they are caught. They are also highly expensive. One of my good friends who is in one pays $600 per semester. She moved into the house this year and hates it because she never gets any sleep and complains all the time that the people in her sorority treat her like crap if they don't get their way. They also manipulate her into going out and spending money to eat out or buy things because they pick on those who don't join them at the $30 dish a person restaurant or aren't carrying around the latest designer hand bag. I personally don't have time for any of that, and can make real friends on my own, thank you.

[#FF0000]

yeah frats are usually either just boring networking things or ridiculous animal house shit it seems. usually the former.

[cynicles]

Why is it called the greek system? What is greek about it? Isn't activism really big in Greece amongst post-secondary students and non-existant amongst Frats and Sororities?

[Revoltorb]

Why is it called the greek system? What is greek about it? Isn't activism really big in Greece amongst post-secondary students and non-existant amongst Frats and Sororities?

It's called Greek life/system/organisations/etc. because they use Greek letters for their names. Sigma Phi Epsilon, Alpha Sigma Tau, Phi Sigma Sigma, etc. These are supposed to be initials for their mottoes but I don't think anyone actually cares about that anymore. They originally chose Greek letters because they thought themselves cultured like the Greeks of yore. You know, the ones who disenfranchised anyone who wasn't a landed, male aristocrat.

[Jack]

I'm in a fraternity. Not one of the "community service" or "academic" ones either. We drink, do and sell drugs, haze until kids have mental breakdowns, get into brawls, do and say things the average RevLeft user would find repulsive, etc.

It's very tribal I guess, I like to think of it as gangs for white kids (depends on the college obviously but it's like that here). Most people in Greek Life are from wealthy families, I'm actually kind of an oddball for not being from one. I wouldn't call it "capitalism" or anything related to capitalism, having an active social life isn't a bourgeois luxury.

Don't hate people in Greek Life, most of them are shallow, but they don't give a fuck about you and or what you do so there's no real point in wasting energy on getting upset.

Also you're all GDIs :D

[Os Cangaceiros]

Don't hate people in Greek Life, most of them are shallow, but they don't give a fuck about you and or what you do so there's no real point in wasting energy on getting upset.

I don't think that any of the people or institutions that people here get mad at give a fuck about any of us. god forbid that would be a qualification for people getting mad on this website.

[Jack]

I don't think that any of the people or institutions that people here get mad at give a fuck about any of us. god forbid that would be a qualification for people getting mad on this website.

That's not what I was trying to say. They don't care about you, don't care about them, literally that's it. I see 100 times more hate on the internet and in real life for fraternities than I've ever heard any fraternity member (not just in my own) complain about unaffiliated people.

Edit: Misread what you said, disregard that I guess.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think it's a hold-over from where there were more eliete social clubs. While there's probably a range of cultures in frats today, I think originally and probably still at most eliete schools they are for the next generation of capitalists to meet and network.

Jewish and Latino and Black frats, for example, while trying to provide a space for students who were probably excluded from the eliete WASP-Y frats generally center around programs for building "leadership" in the business world.

But like I said, today there's probably a range of focuses and many which are not centered on post-college networking. So someone being in a frat probably doesn't tell us that much automatically about that induvidual.

Also, in the US frats have a bad reputation regarding ignoring or condoning rape.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

two words: gender cults

[black magick hustla]

That's not what I was trying to say. They don't care about you, don't care about them, literally that's it. I see 100 times more hate on the internet and in real life for fraternities than I've ever heard any fraternity member (not just in my own) complain about unaffiliated people.

Edit: Misread what you said, disregard that I guess.

its not about that though. fuck, i have family members in frats. a lot of them aren't that terrible, they just drink and smoke weed all day. however, there is a huge fucking problem with racism and rape and i don't think its enough to say "well we dont care about u dont care about them".

[Os Cangaceiros]

Yeah, I don't really care about fraternities one way or the other. Just as long as they're not throwing beer bottles at my window or something. I've had friends/colleagues who've been in fraternities and they weren't assholes. But I think that fraternities can often encourage some pretty negative behaviour, as bmh mentioned.

[cynicles]

two words: gender cults
If you're going to be a gender cult atleast do something cool though, sacrifice a goat to the Goddess Athene, eat some fictious blood and flesh of Ra, you know, spice it up a bit.

[Jack]

its not about that though. fuck, i have family members in frats. a lot of them aren't that terrible, they just drink and smoke weed all day. however, there is a huge fucking problem with racism and rape and i don't think its enough to say "well we dont care about u dont care about them".

Racism is there, not overt but it's there. We don't take Asian members (unwritten rule on my campus), I don't agree with it, but that's the way it's always been and my opinion is the minority.

I don't really see much "rape culture", there's a saying "no self respecting brother of *insert fraternity here* would ever willingly waste their drugs like that". As far as I know there hasn't been a single rape case or accusation at my university within Greek Life while I was here (while something like 20% of my Freshman class's women were raped).

Anyways my point was you're attacking a lifestyle people chose for themselves that has no bearing on yours or anyone else who chooses not to affiliate's life.

[cynicles]

Racism is there, not overt but it's there. We don't take Asian members (unwritten rule on my campus), I don't agree with it, but that's the way it's always been and my opinion is the minority.

I don't really see much "rape culture", there's a saying "no self respecting brother of *insert fraternity here* would ever willingly waste their drugs like that". As far as I know there hasn't been a single rape case or accusation at my university within Greek Life while I was here (while something like 20% of my Freshman class's women were raped).

Anyways my point was you're attacking a lifestyle people chose for themselves that has no bearing on yours or anyone else who chooses not to affiliate's life.
If frat boys are raping women and promoting rape culture it certainly does.

[Jack]

If frat boys are raping women and promoting rape culture it certainly does.

If anyone is committing a rape it's a problem. There's nothing too unique about fraternity culture compared to any other kind of male subculture.

How exactly is it "promoting rape culture"?

[cynicles]

If anyone is committing a rape it's a problem. There's nothing too unique about fraternity culture compared to any other kind of male subculture.

How exactly is it "promoting rape culture"?
http://hypervocal.com/culture/2011/do-fraternities-cause-rape-culture/#QBleGmXLk2HBOQQr.99



The unfortunate thing is that this is one of those stereotypes that has a lot of truth to it. Studies have shown that men who are in fraternities are more likely to commit a rape then those who aren’t, and as many as 70% to 90% of gang rapes (http://hypr.vc/oven?id=11229182&targetUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fnsrc.sfsu.edu%2Farticle%2Fb ros_hos_college_fraternities_and_sexual_exploitati on) are committed by fraternity members.

[Jack]

http://hypervocal.com/culture/2011/do-fraternities-cause-rape-culture/#QBleGmXLk2HBOQQr.99


The article you linked's source (this isn't exactly an "academic" website by the way) on gang rapes goes to a dead link, I did find this searching for some statistics though:

http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/Publications/POP_Acquaintance%20Rape033012b.pdf

Page 17, it puts it at 55% of all college gang rapes. Really, where else do you have a large group of men who are comfortable with one another and live with one another on a college campus?


There are about 1 million college students who are actively members of Greek Life. The number of total college students is about 21 million, source here with a breakdown: http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d11/tables/dt11_206.asp

Total number of male students currently enrolled in a full time college (which would make them a possible candidate for Greek life):
5,837,057

About 500,000 of these are in local colleges, that is community college, and thus not eligible to be a part of Greek Life. 803,152 are at religious universities (many of which ban fraternities).

So even if we are to include all full time male college students, regardless of the college they may go to (such as community college, colleges who ban fraternities, art schools, members of other fraternities such as my own etc), fraternity members make up about 8.566% of the male student body. So the number your article gives of fraternity members committing 10% of all college rapes actually would make them little different than your average college student. And remember that these are mostly people who are living a lifestyle with lots binge drinking and parties who have common social interactions that would make it easier to commit a rape, but the numbers aren't that different from any other group.

But nobody wants to talk about the more positive aspects of Greek Life:
http://www.whygogreek.com/stats.html

[cynicles]

Was that last link you posted supposed to convince us of the benefits of 'going greek' or reinforce why it's a bastion of bougeiose brats?




The following are some statistics about greek life:
- According to nationwide study of fraternity and sorority members, by belonging to a fraternity your chances of graduating are greater by up to 10 percent.


Guess those inside connections sure come in handy.

- Greek members on average donate more than four times as much to their respective universities as alumni than do non greeks.
- As Alumni, Greeks give approximately 75% of all money donated to universities.


WOW! They donate more then 4 times other alumni to use shit one campus, sports teams and to paying the wages of over paid uni admins!

- As undergraduates, Greeks raise approximately $7 million per year for charities.
- As undergraduates, Greeks give approximately 850,000 volunteer hours per year.


Gosh these fratboys sure are superior to us, theyve mastered the ability of to engage in volunteer and fundraising work, nobody outside of a frat can do that.

- Studies prove that Fraternity and Sorority Alumni are much more likely than non-Greeks to participate in community service activities after graduation.
Define "community service activities".


- Forty-three of the 100 members of the U.S. Senate are members of a fraternity or sorority.
- Thirty-Six percent of the House of Representatives are members of a sorority or fraternity.
- Of North America’s 50 largest corporations, 43 are headed by Greek men and women, 30% of all Fortune 500's.
- 7 out of 10 people listed in Who’s Who are Greek.
- 40 of 47 U.S. Supreme Court Justices have been and are Greek.
- 63% of all U.S. Cabinet members since 1900 have been and are Greek. - All of the Apollo 11 astronauts were Greek.


I always wondered who helped put those dipshits in power.

- There are 400,000 active members in Greek organizations nation-wide.


There's lots of them, that's a plus! Wait what?

- Less than 3% of the United States is Greek.


Fun fact: over 90% of Greece is greek!

- A study by the University of Missouri found that Greeks throughout the U.S. and Canada are more involved on their campuses and rate their overall university experience better than non-Greeks.


In other words, the few students from poor and working class families that are going to university have to spend their spare time at jobs paying for their own education.

- The same U of Missouri study found Greeks are more financially successful after they graduate than non-Greeks, are more involved in their communities, and give more generously to their alma maters.

Bougeios, redundant and redundant.

[Jack]

Was that last link you posted supposed to convince us of the benefits of 'going greek' or reinforce why it's a bastion of bougeiose brats?



Guess those inside connections sure come in handy.

WOW! They donate more then 4 times other alumni to use shit one campus, sports teams and to paying the wages of over paid uni admins!

Gosh these fratboys sure are superior to us, theyve mastered the ability of to engage in volunteer and fundraising work, nobody outside of a frat can do that.

Define "community service activities".

I always wondered who helped put those dipshits in power.

There's lots of them, that's a plus! Wait what?

Fun fact: over 90% of Greece is greek!

In other words, the few students from poor and working class families that are going to university have to spend their spare time at jobs paying for their own education.

Bougeios, redundant and redundant.

So debunk your accusations and your only response is countless insults on an article I linked as a side note.

Classy.

[cynicles]

You debunked it, there wasn't anything more to say. Do you want your ego stroked fratboy?

OH GREAT MAN OF THE FRATERNITY!!!! PLEASE HAVE MERCY ON ME WITH YOUR SUPERIOR INTELLECT AND HIGH CLASS STATUS IN SOCIETY!!!! I AM BUT A NON-GREEK PEON!!!!!! I WILL NEVER COMPREHEND THE COMPLEXITIES OF YOUR SUPERIOR SUBCULTURE AND FUTURE ROLE IN THE UPPER CLASSES!!!!

[Jack]

You debunked it, there wasn't anything more to say. Do you want your ego stroked fratboy?

OH GREAT MAN OF THE FRATERNITY!!!! PLEASE HAVE MERCY ON ME WITH YOUR SUPERIOR INTELLECT AND HIGH CLASS STATUS IN SOCIETY!!!! I AM BUT A NON-GREEK PEON!!!!!! I WILL NEVER COMPREHEND THE COMPLEXITIES OF YOUR SUPERIOR SUBCULTURE AND FUTURE ROLE IN THE UPPER CLASSES!!!!

This is kind of pathetic.

[black magick hustla]

Anyways my point was you're attacking a lifestyle people chose for themselves that has no bearing on yours or anyone else who chooses not to affiliate's life.
idk i mean as i said its not something i loose sleep over but there is statistical evidence that i am too lazy too look for that says that rape is a thing in frats, and so is racism. you don't get carte blanche in a discussion forum just cuz' you and ur pasty white buddies and their popped collars don't spend a minute thinking about anybody except for yourselves (hence the racism and the rape). furthermore frats do inform a lot the college culture and atmosphere of underclassmen partying, they are not insulated bro opium dens where their dumb shit doesn't spill out.

[cynicles]

This is kind of pathetic.
Says the man defending upper class institutions that breed the future ruling class.

[Comrade B]

I go to a school with 20% Greek membership, and one of my housemates is a former Beta. There is some animosity between the Greek and non-Greek, but the members aren't all bad. There is a disturbing amount of sexism within the Greek system nationally, and the system exists for the purpose "connections," essentially making sure that kids with wealthy parents who did the Greek thing can get other friends like their wealthy parents.

While the purpose of the Greek system is conservative, the members shouldn't be overly generalized. Many join just because they like the parties/have other friends within it, and a lot of people who join because of family don't see it as much as a political thing, but more as tradition. There is plenty to dislike about the Greek system, but hating the members isn't constructive.



Except for Phi Delts. They are ass holes, and you should egg their houses (as I did this weekend). Make sure to hit the upper windows though, because otherwise grounds keeping cleans it up for them.

[ComingUpForAir]

except that having a greek system dramatically affects the way that people interact on campus. If the hottest girls are all in a sorority and you're not in a fraternity they party with all the time, you're at a disadvantage. If greek life celebrates partying all the time and excludes people who aren't involved then as a whole the life of students is affected... ever hear of sorority girls getting raped? This happens a lot.. just because it's every day life doesn't mean it's not important to analyze from a marxist point of view.. in college partying and women are resources.. and the greek system encourages mindless hedonism -- don't get me wrong I love to party, but the greek system turns it into something very exclusive.. it creates social cliques and tribes.. honestly looking back I wish I had joined one ..for the girls.. but at the time I was disgusted by the culture and attitudes..

[ComingUpForAir]

When I was in college, they had separate frats for asians, for blacks, and for whites.. if that's not racism or encouraging tribalism then I don't know what is. Also rape culture is a big deal in the greek system because it's organizing dudes into tribes and giving them tribal force.. too much power, money, and parties to lure women in.. the entitlement over the rest of the student body..tribalism is NOT egalitarian.. on a social level the greek system is NOT marxist -- also you say that they 'don't give a fuck about you'... right, but everyone is still being affected. The greek system organizes people into exclusive clubs, with the most attractive girls competing for status..and I'm supposed to live and let live? I may not give a fuck about you, but I'm being profoundly affected by a situation in which girls basically become associated into cliques and it's harder to fuck them on a friday night when they are going to a frat party. It's not live and let live.. I think you've acquired a nasty frat-boy mentality..

[Comrade B]

Kinda feel like this conversation as gotten more hostile than it needs to be. Frats were made out of a bad ideology... but honestly, most frat kids I know aren't bad. I date a girl who isn't in a sorority, but a lot of her friends are... honestly... most people look out for themselves and have independent consciousness. Frats are a good way of promoting some negative behavior, but mostly it isn't that bad.

Additionally, I think they are getting a little less awful. I have heard of more and more acceptance within specific frats. At Tulane, the Sigma Chi frat is well known for being accepting of homosexuality, and at my school one of the better respected members is from Ho Chi Minh City and has a very strong accent. While frats have plenty to be criticized for, they aren't the worst thing on earth.
I egg Phi Delt on the regular, but beyond that, we should be focusing on unity and acceptance, not further division among each other. No need to create separations where they did not previously exist- Marxism has enough sectarianism as it is.

[Luís Henrique]

In my college years I hated the greek system, which essentially was capitalism in college..

As far as I know, they are an exclusively American phenomenon.

Are there fraternities in any other country?

How did these things evolve? German reactionary students in the 19th century had duelling clubs, perhaps there is any link?

Luís Henrique

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

England seems like such a nice place in comparison. They practically don't exist over here (fraternities).