Why are Americans so conservative

[spice756]

Why are Americans so conservative . I can't help my self watch this reelection of Obama and wonder like the other election why is the US the way it is .

After doing physiology profile of Americans they are very different than conservative people in Canada or Europe. The people in Canada or Europe that are conservative seem to be more rooted with self interest than US that more rooted with libertarian base on economics but big government control run by the church.

The Republican party would be ultra conservative party and Democratic party far right party to Canadian and European standards. Most conservative parties and people who are conservative in Canada or Europe will still support universal healthcare , anti prison population on level of US or the tough on crime laws like the US , tough drug laws like the US and issues of LGBT like the US so on.

There no way people in Canada or Europe would support the death penalty, tough drug laws , tough crime laws ,large prison population.

The fact that almost 50% did not support Obama tells me how conservative people in the US are :(not to say people who support Obama on women rights or LGBT but take a very hard conservative view on economics .

Tells me the left has lot to do and how conservative people are in the US.

[Skyhilist]

Yeah it's unfortunate, a lot of people here are just really brainwashed by corporately bought politicians.

[#FF0000]

Just the political culture, I guess. It's a good question, but I really have no idea.

[Doflamingo]

Because a lot of them think that "dat 'dere 'bama gon' take away our freedom and our guns!"

Really, a lot of people in rural areas are conservative because they want to have guns. At least, that's the case in the are where I live.

[graffic]

In the UK we have things like the BBC so you can watch television without being brainwashed by adverts and the NHS which provides free healthcare.

[Blake's Baby]

Initial proposition is flawed. The majority of people in the UK, for instance, do support the death penalty. A great many people here support savage 'justice', are very opposed to LGBT rights, anti-immigrant and support very tough drug laws.

'The ruling ideas of any epoch are the ideas of the ruling class'. It suits our lords and masters to set the agenda for public discourse which (surprise surprise) means on the whole right-wing attitudes predominate everywhere.

There are some local exceptions. Healthcare for instance is better in most European countries than the US and most people probably support that, but it's often tied up with the most reactionary nationalistic nonsense. In Britain, you can be patriotic in your support for the National Health Service (don't mention the fact that it's staffed by Bengalis, Zimbabweans, Trinidadians and Bulgarians). I don't see it so much as being a 'progressive' issue, it's just on this, rest of world = normal, USA = stuck in 1830. Someday, the US will enter the 20th century with a national healthcare system and countries like Mali and Bolivia will wonder why they took so long.

[Psy]

The US is a two party system thus we can't really get the fractured governments that we say in Germany in 1933 or Japan's 1925 election where communist parties really start becoming mainstream parties in elections.

Stop and think how differently the US presidential elections would have played out if they had to contend with a communist party that was able to play to populism to get a nice chunk of the votes.

[Positivist]

Well to be fair a lot hate both parties, and only about 60% of eligible people vote on a good year. The feracity of both republicans and democrats I know is always very discouraging but there's usually a solid amount of people who profess to hate both which gives me some hope. But yeah, overall Americans are astonishingly ignorant about politics.

[spice756]

Just the political culture, I guess. It's a good question, but I really have no idea.

Yes but where did that come from at one point Canada and Europe had no universal healthcare and had the death penalty and very tough on crime laws.


The tough drug laws in Canada and Europe are nothing like th US.Many people spend long time in prison for just less than 30 grams in the US.

[NewLeft]

political parties are more regional, people voting republican/democrat just because its part of their regional identity.

[Zostrianos]

Stop and think how differently the US presidential elections would have played out if they had to contend with a communist party that was able to play to populism to get a nice chunk of the votes.

And if the very terms socialism and communism hadn't been so villified like they were in the US. That and certain media outlets *cough Fox News cough deceiving millions of people, and convincing them that shutting down public services, giving tax cuts to the rich, and spending millions on the military is in their best interest, and that non-Christians and left wingers are their enemy. The result is you end up with horribly misinformed sections of the population, who think free healthcare and aid to the poor are anti-American, and who think the government shouldn't spend their money on public services (but they don't mind if it goes to the military).
It's very sad, but I think the tide is turning. I think the election results showed that people didn't buy into the whole "Barack Osama, the Nazi\Socialist\Muslim dictator" campaign conservatives have been parrotting. It's a start.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Workers follow the Conservatives because the hate they demonstrate the hate that workers feel but can't define. So instead of hating their boss who makes their life miserable, they blame homosexuals, unionized teachers and "socialist" Obama. Here are some funny American conservatives:

wLoqti0lzAw

[hetz]

That and certain media outlets *cough Fox News cough deceiving millions of people, and convincing them that shutting down public services, giving tax cuts to the rich, and spending millions on the military is in their best interest, and that non-Christians and left wingers are their enemy.
See that's the thing that baffles me the most.
That isn't really about "ideology", it's just plain common sense. You'd expect the "common folk" to be instinctively against policies that would directly harm them and their living standards.

[Blake's Baby]

The US does seem to be both incredibly nationalistic and incredibly religious, though. They must have a bearing I'd think.

[spice756]

political parties are more regional, people voting republican/democrat just because its part of their regional identity.

Yes but that go back long ago before the FDR all the government really did was trade , military and immigration that all .Laws where base on state matters and schools where more church schools.There was no child labor , minimum wage or environment laws !! No FDA on food or drug laws.

If you poor or your house burns now you turn to the church not government !! This is what most Americans worship has only holy book.

And government are evile and all they should do is trade , military and immigration and church deels with poor and this philosophy is rooted in their mind.

In Canada and Europe it more self interest than librarian base.The founding fothers wanted 100% free market the feds just deel with trade , military and immigration and states to have own laws and have state matter. It not clear if the founding fothers on social issues on government in you house if they wanted that or NOT but they would very much so oppose the fed drug law today , fed law on 21 up to drink , fed law on anti- abortion or LGBT has the founding fothers would view this has state matter and feds should stay out of it.

In lot ways the fed pick and choose has they took founding fothers views on economics and like to talk about this in media but views on social issues the feds want to run and control people by church laws.

I think we have less of this founding fothers and librarian base in Canada and Europe and may be why they are more left and progressive than the US.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Really, it's this election cycle that makes you wonder how conservative Americans are? The cycle that re-elected Barack Obama, made marijuana legal in two states (and almost made medicinal marijuana legal in Arkansas...Arkansas!), marked the very first time that voters approved pro-gay marriage laws in two states, knocked down three strike laws in the most populated American state & almost abolished the death penalty in that same state (although that bill was problematic from what I hear), came within one percentage point of making "right-to-die" legal in Maryland, etc?

It's weird, because every other commentator I've read on the internet is busy proclaiming the death of the religious right and you're wondering why Americans are so conservative...?

[barbelo]

I have a strange fascination for southern christian white trash. I hear bluegrass music and is so awesome.
Anyway, I watched a youtube video (http://youtu.be/ejdZMgECKN0) about how a Texan stopped an arrest with his own gun and I can only feel a bit of envy.
While my country is filled with political ignorant people, rabid hysterical antifas (so fundamentalist in their beliefs that they end being fascist too), with people who want a bigger and bigger government, pro-disarmament, etc... Conservative americans live in very autonomous states and pay 100% less in taxes.

If regular people in India, Brazil or Angola were able to own gun they wouldn't be such victims of criminal organizations, which for most of time work in cooperation with the corrupted government.

[Ostrinski]

I actually think that social conservatism and fanatical religiosity are becoming more isolated and concentrated into distinct areas. As more and more of the nation moves on into the twenty first century, the hangers on will cling more ferociously to their old order.

[Crux]

I have a strange fascination for southern christian white trash. I hear bluegrass music and is so awesome.
Anyway, I watched a youtube video (http://youtu.be/ejdZMgECKN0) about how a Texan stopped an arrest with his own gun and I can only feel a bit of envy.
While my country is filled with political ignorant people, rabid hysterical antifas (so fundamentalist in their beliefs that they end being fascist too), with people who want a bigger and bigger government, pro-disarmament, etc... Conservative americans live in very autonomous states and pay 100% less in taxes.

If regular people in India, Brazil or Angola were able to own gun they wouldn't be such victims of criminal organizations, which for most of time work in cooperation with the corrupted government.
Do tell more.

[Soomie]

Because the puritans came over here from england and soiled everything they touched.

[skitty]

"See that's the thing that baffles me the most.
That isn't really about "ideology", it's just plain common sense. You'd expect the "common folk" to be instinctively against policies that would directly harm them and their living standards."

What's the Matter with Kansas? How Conservatives Won the Heart of America (2004)-is a book I remember that looks at people voting against their own interests. I believe there is a film also.

[Ostrinski]

I have a strange fascination for southern christian white trash. I hear bluegrass music and is so awesome.
Anyway, I watched a youtube video (http://youtu.be/ejdZMgECKN0) about how a Texan stopped an arrest with his own gun and I can only feel a bit of envy.
While my country is filled with political ignorant people, rabid hysterical antifas (so fundamentalist in their beliefs that they end being fascist too), with people who want a bigger and bigger government, pro-disarmament, etc... Conservative americans live in very autonomous states and pay 100% less in taxes.

If regular people in India, Brazil or Angola were able to own gun they wouldn't be such victims of criminal organizations, which for most of time work in cooperation with the corrupted government.Please don't use this term if you pretend to be a class conscious person.

[Prometeo liberado]

The idea of the individualist is so ingrained here and used very effectively as an isolation technique. If you are not guilty of killing someone then why should you have to "pay" for them to be incarcerated? The average person is taught to horde what they believe is theirs. Failing to grasp that nothing is accomplished as an individual(sorry Ayn) and that collectively we rise or fall. The machine is very cunning and powerful indeed and it's greatest accomplishment is convincing the populace that it doesn't exist.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Evangelical Fundamentalism is dying and soon to be dead. It will go with the baby boomers. The next era of American politics is one of liberal multiculturalism.
Also, if you use the term white trash get the fuck out of here. So many brilliant people were raised in trailer parks. If you assume someone is stupid and think of them lowly enough to refer to them as trash because they are poor you are not a socialist by any means.

[MarxSchmarx]

I have a strange fascination for southern christian white trash. I hear bluegrass music and is so awesome.
Anyway, I watched a youtube video (http://youtu.be/ejdZMgECKN0) about how a Texan stopped an arrest with his own gun and I can only feel a bit of envy.
While my country is filled with political ignorant people, rabid hysterical antifas (so fundamentalist in their beliefs that they end being fascist too), with people who want a bigger and bigger government, pro-disarmament, etc... Conservative americans live in very autonomous states and pay 100% less in taxes.

If regular people in India, Brazil or Angola were able to own gun they wouldn't be such victims of criminal organizations, which for most of time work in cooperation with the corrupted government.


Please don't use this term if you pretend to be a class conscious person.

Agreed. Consider yourself verbally warned for using prejudicial and divisive language whatever the context.

[Os Cangaceiros]

A good book that's sorta about this topic is "Deer Hunting With Jesus: Dispatches from America's Class War" by Joe Bageant.

It's an informal look at why some Americans think the way they do. Some of it's a little dated (even though it was published in 2005, IIRC) but it's entertaining enough.

[B5C]

Conservatism has two parts: Religion and Nationalism

Religion:
Unlike Europe, America has a very deep conservative culture due to religion. A lot of new American Christianity has a very Calvinist influence. The idea that if people work hard they will be rewarded into heaven. Religious Calvinism is still slowly going away, but it has deep rooted with in many conservatives and evangelical churches.

Religion still remains very popular. Nearly 70% of Americans belong to Christianity and nearly 90% are part of an religion.


Nationalism & Exceptionalism:
America used to be a nation of citizens who identified themselves of which state they are from. For example, before the Civil War Americans called themselves Virginians, Texans, and Mainers. Ever since the Union won the civil war. We united as one nation as Americans. (With the exception of Texan
s. They never liked to call themselves as Americans.) With that Nationalism we have Exceptionalism. A lot of Americans believe we are the exception. To adapt anything that is not America is considered anti-American. That is why we don't have universal healthcare nor a truly representative government. We don't want to be like Europe or Canada.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

voters approved pro-gay marriage laws in two states
Three. Maine, Maryland, and Washington State.

Also, same sex marriage is a better (but still not perfect) term than gay marriage.

[graffic]

USA is also much bigger country and perhaps less urbanized than some Western European states. UK population is 62 million, France 65, Germany 81 whereas US is 311 million.

I imagine there are plenty of people in New York or LA who would be in favour of social democratic reforms like free healthcare. In the UK the government , power and media is all in London which is basically a city state in itself. Whereas in the US you've got New York, LA, Washington. It's a lot bigger and regional. I blame fox news.

Also in the UK we have the history of the aristocratic class which has remnants still around today such as the monarchy who find nouveau riche rather crass and vulgar whereas America was a country founded by nouveau riche and celebrates the nouveau riche which has good points such as meritocracy but also that the culture is less refined, more rough and dog eat dog. I'm glad we have the BBC in UK.

[Ocean Seal]

I find this wrong. The libertarian base of economics is inherently "self interest" based. But aside from that conservatives everywhere try to get their views pressed on everyone else because that's what they do. They cling to what they know.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Evangelical Fundamentalism is dying and soon to be dead. It will go with the baby boomers. The next era of American politics is one of liberal multiculturalism.

The Christian Evangelical Movement can trace its roots back to the 1700s. European nations each were heavily influenced and promptly converted all religious practice to such evangelical theology (as was easy to do so under a Monarchy). In America the movement would take the form of a series of “Great Awakenings” in which American consciousness gravitated towards a renewed interest in religion after a decline. With the first such Great Awakening taking place in 1730 A.D and the fourth, and current, beginning in the 1960’s the United States as we know it today is still mired in the latest awakening.

It is incorrect to assume that such belief is dying and will soon be nonexistent. During the 2008 elections many reformists here thought that Obama would herald in a new progressive age but in actually, as we revolutionaries knew, such would be the exact opposite.

Reactionary ideas and immaterial spiritualism can be ushered in at any time, especially during now when the groundwork for radical-right-wingers is being laid in response to many progressive measures being passed.Such has a parallel in 1860-70s Germany when the Homosexual Emancipation movement was winning rights. Obviously this didn't last long as the counterrevolution swept in measures which would ultimately lead to fascism.

There was a time in America, during the 70s or 80s I think though I am not positive, when religious worship in America was at such a low point that many atheistic pundits were claiming the end of Christianity in the U.S.This wasn't the case. Such worship was low but was immediately followed by the latest Great Awakening.

So I guess the morale of the story is: progress is never static and can be set back, nothing is certain.

[B5C]

There was a time in America, during the 70s or 80s I think though I am not positive, when religious worship in America was at such a low point that many atheistic pundits were claiming the end of Christianity in the U.S.This wasn't the case. Such worship was low but was immediately followed by the latest Great Awakening.

Actually, we are in the lowest point for the religion in the states. We have current 20% of Americans who don't belong to a religion. During the 1980s, nearly 90% of Americans are religious.

I think the pundits were talking about religion's influence in government. During Kenndy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, and Carter years religion never played a major role in government. Now then Reagan came in with a powerful support of Christian evangelicals. Religion has made a bigger comeback. Now we have groups like the "Wallbuilders" who re-write US history to have a pro-Christian view.

[spice756]

Actually, are in the lowest point for the religion in the states. We have current 20% of Americans who don't belong to a religion. During the 1980s, nearly 90% of Americans are religious.

I think the pundits were talking about religion's influence in government. During Kenndy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, and Carter years religion never played a major role in government. Now then Reagan came in with a powerful support of Christian evangelicals. Religion has made a bigger comeback. Now we have groups like the "Wallbuilders" who re-write US history to have a pro-Christian view.


It true religion is slowing dying in the US but the government , school and media are becoming more religious now that I think is in response to that.

It seems Bush tried to push more religion in government , school and media and religious laws. Where now the democratic party is trying do away from that.


Before Obama you had libertarian base but now with Obama you have even more libertarian base now and tea party movement.

Most of this tea party movement and big libertarian base now is in response to big government spending and high debt but they seem to not understand the US had big debt before Obama ;)and Bush like a lot of republicans spend a lot of money and have a big debt. They also don't seem to mind high spending and debt on the military, wars , police and prison population.

People can be dying on the street of cancer or other medical problems but they don't mind spending money locking people in Jail for long time for drugs , DUI or theft so on. They don't mind spending money on the military but on environment or health care is no no.

[barbelo]

Please don't use this term if you pretend to be a class conscious person.

B-b-but it's just a slang.
Why such a holier than thou attitude?


Do tell more.

Not much left to say. Underage people who pull out their pants and show the butt to police men as some form of protest, this kind of thing.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

B-b-but it's just a slang.
Why such a holier than thou attitude?

It is not just slang, it is discriminatory language used against members of a specific class and social-position.

[Landsharks eat metal]

Not much left to say. Underage people who pull out their pants and show the butt to police men as some form of protest, this kind of thing.

Asses are fascist now??

[levyel]

It is not just slang, it is discriminatory language used against members of a specific class and social-position.

So are the terms 'bourgousie' and 'lumpenproletariat'...

[NGNM85]

Not to be a vocabulary nazi, but the question is really; 'Why are Americans so Right-wing?'

[Delenda Carthago]

Really, it's this election cycle that makes you wonder how conservative Americans are? The cycle that re-elected Barack Obama, made marijuana legal in two states (and almost made medicinal marijuana legal in Arkansas...Arkansas!), marked the very first time that voters approved pro-gay marriage laws in two states, knocked down three strike laws in the most populated American state & almost abolished the death penalty in that same state (although that bill was problematic from what I hear), came within one percentage point of making "right-to-die" legal in Maryland, etc?

It's weird, because every other commentator I've read on the internet is busy proclaiming the death of the religious right and you're wondering why Americans are so conservative...?

This. Americans are way proggressive to most of human societies. Just compare them to Russia, China or India and you ll feel better. Most of our favorite things come from USA!

[Ostrinski]

Damn, most of our favorite things come from Greece. That olive oil!

[Revolution starts with U]

Jefferson and Jim Crow and Jerry Mander

[black magick hustla]

dude europe is way more racist than the u.s. you guys have fucking racist murder gangs as feasable electoral candidates. the U.S. is a big, very diverse country and it depends of what regions you are talking about. i don't like when european posters come around and raise their nose at american poltics when french people have the national front and greek people have the golden dawn. it's just reaction in the u.s. takes different forms, that's all.

[Rugged Collectivist]

So are the terms 'bourgousie' and 'lumpenproletariat'...

These aren't really discriminatory. They're just technical terms.

[Avanti]

in europe, you should be the politically correct emasculated "ideal citizen"

in the usa, you should be MASCULINE and conform to traditional gender roles

that's the difference.

[graffic]

dude europe is way more racist than the u.s. you guys have fucking racist murder gangs as feasable electoral candidates. the U.S. is a big, very diverse country and it depends of what regions you are talking about. i don't like when european posters come around and raise their nose at american poltics when french people have the national front and greek people have the golden dawn. it's just reaction in the u.s. takes different forms, that's all.

In the US you have a choice between a conservative party (Democrats) and a very conservative party (the Republicans) and then you have parties like the Tea Party but lets not go into that.

Europeans have good reason to resent America because a lot of the things that have bankrupted our refined culture have come from the dog eat dog land of the yanks where capital and profit rules above everything else. Obsession with celebrity, the bastardization of the English language, unchecked casino capitalism, to name but a few.

[black magick hustla]

our refined culture.

lol

[Blake's Baby]

Oh, and another thing, Americans don't get irony, eh Graffic?

How I lolled at the thought that bmh took you seriously, when you were obviously (to 'sophisticated European' eyes naturally) just being a self-depricating caricature of a pompous prick.

'bastardization of the English language' - with a Z no less! - priceless, in a thread about how Americans are 'conservative'! I laughed all the way to my Anglo-Saxon Primer.

[graffic]

'bastardization of the English language' - with a Z no less! - priceless, in a thread about how Americans are 'conservative'! I laughed all the way to my Anglo-Saxon Primer.

Yes I knew the irony as I was typing. Thats the bastard Mac that I am using which always corrects me to the shit American way.

In Europe we all think your right v right, Republic V Democratic corporate soap opera is very sweet.

It always makes me laugh like drains when yanks are so patriotric about their casino banks, or corporate political culture. We got things like National Healthcare sorted about 65 years ago. ha ha ha ha

[Red Banana]

a lot of the things that have bankrupted our refined culture have come from the dog eat dog land of the yanks where capital and profit rules above everything else.

And here I thought capitalism was a global system.

[Crimson Commissar]

America is a historically very rural and traditional society that bases pretty much every ounce of it's culture and morals on Christianity and conservatism in various forms.

Then take into account the nearly 100 years of violent reactionary propaganda that has demonised even the centre of politics as "socialism", and you have the perfect recipe for the vile and backwards nation of ultra-capitalism and right-wing nonsense that is the United States of America.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

...We got things like National Healthcare sorted about 65 years ago. ha ha ha ha

...through the help of radical movements which posed serious challenges to the status quo, something America lacked.

[black magick hustla]

...through the help of radical movements which posed serious challenges to the status quo, something America lacked.

idk, the us had some of the most dangerous and violent class struggle in the developed history. in the battle of blair mountain there where thousands of miners armed to the teeth that made front to the sherrif and his mercenary army, in ludlow there where workers' guerrillas wasting guards and hired guns etc

[graffic]

...through the help of radical movements which posed serious challenges to the status quo, something America lacked.

That's not actually true. The post war nationalisation consensus was inspired by reformists like William Beverage and Labour MP's.

During the war the state had to be involved more in peoples lives. It was the scale of casualties in the war that highlighted the need for a better healthcare system. They still only nationalised 25% of the economy but the NHS is one of things that has lasted perhaps because it works so well.

[black magick hustla]

It always makes me laugh like drains when yanks are so patriotric about their casino banks, or corporate political culture. We got things like National Healthcare sorted about 65 years ago. ha ha ha ha

yea, and you can say this in national tv,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517

whatever man. fuck europe and it warms my heart every time a new mosque is built in some neighborhood and makes some european honkeys whine about how european identity is being destroyed by brown people

[TheGodlessUtopian]

idk, the us had some of the most dangerous and violent class struggle in the developed history. in the battle of blair mountain there where thousands of miners armed to the teeth that made front to the sherrif and his mercenary army, in ludlow there where workers' guerrillas wasting guards and hired guns etc

True but those movements didn't have the influence to affect policy on healthcare (or anything really aside from some public opinion and some concessions on labor laws). Militant but that militancy didn't last.

@Graffic: But that is taking things in isolation. The reformist movement was influenced by the radical movement. No, I am no expert on such histories but this is something that is generally static throughout unstable times.

[statichaos]

While they aren't the only elements involved in the acceptance of nationalized health care and other pivotal industries, two major factors played into Europe's somewhat more socialized system as opposed to the American one:

First, in the feudal system predominant in Europe throughout much of its history, it was accepted that the Lord of the manor would provide for his subjects in certain areas, whether through a hospital, some minor education necessary for them to perform their duties (though not too much, as they didn't want serfs getting ideas beyond their station), and some food during times of want. Note that this worked much better in theory than in practice, and there were any number of rulers who provided nothing or next to nothing in exchange for service, but the idea was there, and it wasn't much of a leap from a noble class being responsible for the general welfare to the government being responsible for such things.

Secondly, we can't forget geography, especially in the early 20th century. When the October Revolution occurred, the governments of Europe, which had been reasonably successful in tamping down workers' revolts, suddenly found themselves with an actual (for a given degree of actual) communist state on their doorsteps. In order to maintain support among the working classes, and to minimize the rise of actual sympathizers to a what they saw as a potential invading force to the East, it was necessary to make certain concessions.

In America, on the other hand, the entire nation was founded upon the idea of a break from the remnants of the feudal systems of Europe. In opposition to such an idea, the concepts of the "self-made man" and the "pioneer spirit" took hold in the collective American unconscious, combining with other myths to create what we refer to as the "American Dream". The idea that each person is responsible for his or her own destiny, however false, was a seductive one to those attempting to cast off the shackles of what they saw as an oppressive hierarchical system. Additionally, the lack of any serious threat of invasion or infiltration from the Soviet Union in the 20th century allowed the defenders of a more market-oriented approach to cast the Soviets as the enemy without having to make significant concessions to those who might otherwise sympathize with the aims of the Communists. To this day, even the poorest American will often refuse any sort of assistance from the government, no matter how necessary, due to misguided notions that he or she should be able to take care of his or her own problems, even ones that cannot be fixed through even the most heroic of individual efforts.

[Blake's Baby]

I think it's true that there is a strong streak of the 'pioneer mentality' that surfaces in amaerican political discourse. Rather than that being a reaction to feudalism, however, I'd say it has more to do with America rejecting a lot of the social developments of the 19th and 20th centuries - Britain, France, the Low Countries and to an extent Germany and Italy began the process of industrial capitalist development before the USA, and the USA still has a pre-industrial petit-bourgeois mindset that sits very badly with mass industrial society and mega-cities.

[statichaos]

I think it's true that there is a strong streak of the 'pioneer mentality' that surfaces in amaerican political discourse. Rather than that being a reaction to feudalism, however, I'd say it has more to do with America rejecting a lot of the social developments of the 19th and 20th centuries - Britain, France, the Low Countries and to an extent Germany and Italy began the process of industrial capitalist development before the USA, and the USA still has a pre-industrial petit-bourgeois mindset that sits very badly with mass industrial society and mega-cities.

I don't think that that contradicts my own position. I believe that one of the many reasons that the social developments of the 19th and 20th centuries were easier for these nations to accept was due to a natural mindset that arose from feudalism.

[Blake's Baby]

I think it does, because I think it's a ridiculous thing to claim that there is a 'natural mindset arising out of feudalism'. the social progress that Europe has had that the USA hasn't is progress. America is still ideologically stuck somewhere between 1776 and 1848. Europe however has moved forwards, not backwards - at least to the 1890s if not quite up to the 20th century yet.

[Os Cangaceiros]

@Graffic: But that is taking things in isolation. The reformist movement was influenced by the radical movement. No, I am no expert on such histories but this is something that is generally static throughout unstable times.

If you're going to argue that, you could just as easily argue that FDR's presidency and the New Deal were influenced by America's labor movement, etc.

[bricolage]

yea, and you can say this in national tv,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517
yeah but didn't pat buchanan go on tv saying whites had done everything good ever in history. I mean it's pretty much the same thing.

both places are racist, I dunno why everyone always gets in dick waving competitions like either one is anything close to decent.

actually what I don't get is why people talk about it as europe vs. america. I dunno much about america but it's ridiculous to even talk about europe as some homogenous thing or europeans as any kind of homogenous people. so we're talking about racism and we're meant to to lump the reality of being black or an immigrant or whatever as being the same everywhere in a continent of 50 countries? and america, I mean it's almost the same size as europe and it's the same stuff everywhere? the whole thing is lazy and pointless.

[bricolage]

oh actually was that pat buchanan thing a radio show?

[Ostrinski]

Europe v. America.. revleft of all places. Where's the internationalism folks!

[Ostrinski]

Pat Buchanan is extremely reactionary even by American standards. If he said something like that I wouldn't be surprised, he says stuff like that all the time. There's an entire wikipedia article dedicated just to his controversies.

edit: Man I was thinking of Pat Robertson- equally as reactionary and bigoted.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Pat Buchanan got canned for saying one of those "praise whitey" statements.

[statichaos]

I think it does, because I think it's a ridiculous thing to claim that there is a 'natural mindset arising out of feudalism'. the social progress that Europe has had that the USA hasn't is progress. America is still ideologically stuck somewhere between 1776 and 1848. Europe however has moved forwards, not backwards - at least to the 1890s if not quite up to the 20th century yet.

The idea of a government providing necessary services is going to be more palatable to a people who have lived under a system in which certain services were provided by the lord of the manor (or at least were supposed to be provided by him). Not so much to the mythical "rugged individualist" worshiped as the ideal in America.

[Yuppie Grinder]

So are the terms 'bourgousie' and 'lumpenproletariat'...

The difference is the sort of people who get called "rednecks" are proletarians, and generally speaking very nice and honest ones.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

If you're going to argue that, you could just as easily argue that FDR's presidency and the New Deal were influenced by America's labor movement, etc.

One could, which would render the point of interest to be what is defined as influence. Generally speaking reaction follows progress.

[Blake's Baby]

The idea of a government providing necessary services is going to be more palatable to a people who have lived under a system in which certain services were provided by the lord of the manor (or at least were supposed to be provided by him). Not so much to the mythical "rugged individualist" worshiped as the ideal in America.

Yeah, well, I'm a materialist, not an idealist, so I don't particularly care about psychological interpretations so much as material interpretations. Europeans aren't feudal babies, statichaos; the welfare state that exists in most of Western Europe (and historically in Central and Eastern Europe, I remember in the '80s tales of 'health tourists' crossing from Italy into Yugoslavia) is a result of specific historic developments not a yearning to be lorded over.

[statichaos]

Yeah, well, I'm a materialist, not an idealist, so I don't particularly care about psychological interpretations so much as material interpretations. Europeans aren't feudal babies, statichaos; the welfare state that exists in most of Western Europe (and historically in Central and Eastern Europe, I remember in the '80s tales of 'health tourists' crossing from Italy into Yugoslavia) is a result of specific historic developments not a yearning to be lorded over.

I wasn't talking specifically about a yearning to be lorded over. In fact, I would wholeheartedly disagree with that characterization of my argument, though I understand the misinterpretation.

[Richard Nixon]

There are numerous major exceptions to the idea that America is generally more conservative than the rest of the First World. Quite a few European countries have fairly restrictive abortion laws (Ireland, N. Ireland, and Poland banning them in most cases and even Germany mandating counseling) compared to the fairly libertine ones here, most European countries have yet to legalize gay marriage, there is far less fascism/racism in politics here (there is no real equivalent to the National Front, or the BNP), nobody seriously wants to restrict hijabs in school, far fewer Europeans go to college compared to Americans, there are still laws against Sunday shopping in several European countries, and so on.

[prolcon]

I never thought I'd say this, but Richard Nixon makes a few good points.

[freehobo]

Since colonial America, immigrants have been of the very pious stripe. That's my view of it.

[Thelonious]

There are people in my union local who actually voted for Mitt Romney.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

There are numerous major exceptions to the idea that America is generally more conservative than the rest of the First World. Quite a few European countries have fairly restrictive abortion laws (Ireland, N. Ireland, and Poland banning them in most cases and even Germany mandating counseling) compared to the fairly libertine ones here, most European countries have yet to legalize gay marriage, there is far less fascism/racism in politics here (there is no real equivalent to the National Front, or the BNP), nobody seriously wants to restrict hijabs in school, far fewer Europeans go to college compared to Americans, there are still laws against Sunday shopping in several European countries, and so on.

This. It is sometimes hard to remember that outside of urban france and Scandinavia much of Europe still thinks it lives in the 1820s