Question to MLs

[Philosophos]

I used to be an ML but after a while I quit it. It wasn't for a long period because I'm not very steady myself in my opinions so I haven't had the time to go deep into the ideology.

We are supposed to believe in communism right? In my opinion at least, communism is about making people ethical and make them understand that we should all be doing good in the society. In a few words we should try to make them realise that they are in the working class, that capitalism doesn't work, that they should do things for the society because this is how society works not for profit etc.

My question is this: Why do you believe that the vanguard party will make the difference? If you believe that there should be people that know the theory of communism at the top because the rest of the people can't get it on their own then what's the point of trying to achieve communism? We are going to be stuck in the socialism part.

Tell me if you don't understand something (english is not my native language) or if I make myself unclear at some point. At the same time please don't judge my views as I said I haven't really studied the theory of MLs in dept (that's the word I think) or I might haven't understood something...

[Questionable]

We are supposed to believe in communism right? In my opinion at least, communism is about making people ethical and make them understand that we should all be doing good in the society. In a few words we should try to make them realise that they are in the working class, that capitalism doesn't work, that they should do things for the society because this is how society works not for profit etc.

For me, and based on my own interpretation, for Marx and Engels, this isn't what communism is about. It's not about creating a new ethical society, it's about the proletarian recognizing their immediate class interests, the abolition of private property, and creating a new economic and political structure out of the realization of that interest. Morality/ethics is the superstructure of the economic mode. Any new moral changes will flow from dialectical restructuring of society. Capitalism does work, it just doesn't work in the interests of the proletariat.



My question is this: Why do you believe that the vanguard party will make the difference? If you believe that there should be people that know the theory of communism at the top because the rest of the people can't get it on their own then what's the point of trying to achieve communism? We are going to be stuck in the socialism part.

Once we've rejected the idea that communism is about achieving a higher ethical state, this argument pretty much falls apart because it's no longer about teaching people to be better persons, but I still kind of see what you're seeing. The thing is, the vanguard isn't about steering the workers toward some goal that you've personally decided is best for them. It is, quite simply, the most advanced and conscious section of the working class leading the rest. It is a part of the working class and has no sectarian interests that conflict with it, but it understands the full battle plan of class struggle, and the ideological forces of bourgeois hegemony and populism sometimes create the illusion of conflict (Not to imply that communist parties are never wrong, sometimes it's simply their own faults, especially recently).

Hope I've helped.

[Philosophos]

For me, and based on my own interpretation, for Marx and Engels, this isn't what communism is about. It's not about creating a new ethical society, it's about the proletarian recognizing their immediate class interests, the abolition of private property, and creating a new economic and political structure out of the realization of that interest. Morality/ethics is the superstructure of the economic mode. Any new moral changes will flow from dialectical restructuring of society. Capitalism does work, it just doesn't work in the interests of the proletariat.



Once we've rejected the idea that communism is about achieving a higher ethical state, this argument pretty much falls apart because it's no longer about teaching people to be better persons, but I still kind of see what you're seeing. The thing is, the vanguard isn't about steering the workers toward some goal that you've personally decided is best for them. It is, quite simply, the most advanced and conscious section of the working class leading the rest. It is a part of the working class and has no sectarian interests that conflict with it, but it understands the full battle plan of class struggle, and the ideological forces of bourgeois hegemony and populism sometimes create the illusion of conflict (Not to imply that communist parties are never wrong, sometimes it's simply their own faults, especially recently).

Hope I've helped.

Here it is the difference in the words and I was saying that I was forgeting something. I should have explained it better. When I say ethical I don't just mean the ethics of being a nicer person. What I'm truly trying to say is that we should make people have this uhm.... political ethics. You know make them understand what is best for them and that they should maintain it at all costs. I hope you understand what I truly meant.

And yes you've been helpful :)

[ind_com]

Here it is the difference in the words and I was saying that I was forgeting something. I should have explained it better. When I say ethical I don't just mean the ethics of being a nicer person. What I'm truly trying to say is that we should make people have this uhm.... political ethics. You know make them understand what is best for them and that they should maintain it at all costs. I hope you understand what I truly meant.

And yes you've been helpful :)

In other words, uniform development. Indeed, communism cannot be reached until individuals are uniformly developed. However, capitalism always implies uneven development. Hence in the war to overthrow capitalism, the more developed sections of the proletariat must take the lead. By overthrowing capitalism, they remove the barriers in the way of the development of the rest of the working class.

[ComradeOfJoplin]

I do not mean to display my ignorance but what is ML?

[helot]

I do not mean to display my ignorance but what is ML?


Marxism-Leninism. Your post reminds me of the always increasing number of acronyms and how i hate them.

[Geiseric]

Marxism Leninism in MODERN political language means Stalinist. There are many other "leninist," (as opposed to social democrat) parties, all of whom more or less believe in vanguardism.

A way to see it is that the Jacobins were the vanguard of the French Revolution. It isn't something that you can just call yourself, you need to actually display the class you belong to's political interests to be a "vanguardist." Anybody who goes on a general strike at a revolutionary time is the member of a vanguard, that's how I see it.