Engels

[skitty]

I wonder how many would consider Marx and Engels equals? I was surprised to read that, in his later years, Engels said something to the effect that in countries like America, France and Great Britain a majority vote would suffice. Kind of like a death-bed conversion? I must admit I don't know a lot about Engels...

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Most would consider them equals as both worked closely together; they read each others work and in the case of Engels could simplify Marx's work so it was a bit easier to understand.

A majority vote on what?

[hetz]

I was surprised to read that, in his later years, Engels said something to the effect that in countries like America, France and Great Britain a majority vote would suffice.I think Marx basically said the same thing once, look:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/09/08.htm

In our midst there has been formed a group advocating the workers' abstention from political action. We have considered it our duty to declare how dangerous and fatal for our cause such principles appear to be.
Someday the worker must seize political power in order to build up the new organization of labor; he must overthrow the old politics which sustain the old institutions, if he is not to lose Heaven on Earth, like the old Christians who neglected and despised politics.
But we have not asserted that the ways to achieve that goal are everywhere the same.
You know that the institutions, mores, and traditions of various countries must be taken into consideration, and we do not deny that there are countries -- such as America, England, and if I were more familiar with your institutions, I would perhaps also add Holland -- where the workers can attain their goal by peaceful means. This being the case, we must also recognize the fact that in most countries on the Continent the lever of our revolution must be force; it is force to which we must some day appeal in order to erect the rule of labor.

[Let's Get Free]

I'd say they were equals. But despite his importance in the development of Marxism, he isn't mentioned all that much outside discussions of the history of Marxism. Some people say it is because he did the impossible and managed to be more boring than Marx; his "Conditions of the Working Class in England," which was written based on his experience in the course of running his mill, is sometimes cited as being even more boring than Das Kapital.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

I think Marx basically said the same thing once, look:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/09/08.htm

In our midst there has been formed a group advocating the workers' abstention from political action. We have considered it our duty to declare how dangerous and fatal for our cause such principles appear to be.
Someday the worker must seize political power in order to build up the new organization of labor; he must overthrow the old politics which sustain the old institutions, if he is not to lose Heaven on Earth, like the old Christians who neglected and despised politics.
But we have not asserted that the ways to achieve that goal are everywhere the same.
You know that the institutions, mores, and traditions of various countries must be taken into consideration, and we do not deny that there are countries -- such as America, England, and if I were more familiar with your institutions, I would perhaps also add Holland -- where the workers can attain their goal by peaceful means. This being the case, we must also recognize the fact that in most countries on the Continent the lever of our revolution must be force; it is force to which we must some day appeal in order to erect the rule of labor.

Did....did Marx just advocate working within the system?:confused::confused::confused::crying::cryi ng::lol:
(I know it may not seem much to you but at least 6 doctrinaires just died inside)

[skitty]

A majority vote to overcome capitalism, GodlessUtopian.

[skitty]

Nice find A-toad. I'm guessing Marx was in his mid-fifties when he wrote that. Apparently our fearless leaders wanted some of us to get out there and vote?

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

thank hetz

[skitty]

I apologise-it's late. Thanks Hetz

[Rocky Rococo]

Engels was extremely influential outside Marxism in the field of anthropology, where his work in and associated with The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State gave a systematic character to the research and writing of Morgan, and propelled Morgan's theses into what remain to this day the dominant view of how humans moved from hunter-gatherer society into agricultural and eventually urban civilization, Only in the past 20 years or so has the Morgan-Engels come under serious challenge as a result of the archaeological digs at places like Catalhoyuk and Gobekli Tepe.

[Marxaveli]

Marx was the brain in a lot of ways, but I think Engels was a more coherent writer, and certainly easier to understand.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Marx and Engels were correct - There were currents in place in those countries that could indeed incite peaceful revolution back then. To try and call Marx out for 'senility' for writing a fairly reasonable case about the sociopolitical state of certain countries 100+ years ago is nothing short of idiotic.

Conditions change, movements change.

[l'Enfermé]

In most of the first world, peaceful revolution is possible even today. Marx's meaning was that, due to all the available democratic institutions in America, England, etc, the proletariat can wrest so much power into its hands that the bourgousie would be left powerless to try and use force against the socialist revolution as that would be tantamount to committing suicide.

Anyway, by the end of his life, Engels apparently mused that perhaps the socialist revolution would commence in Germany when the Kaiser's government begins a crackdown on the SPD(when he spoke of the SPD, by the way, he always said "we", so its a bit surprising that Marxists since then have completely forgot that the pre-war SPD was the party of Engels) because the SPD is getting too powerful.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

'equal' is a stupid term in this regard