Greece

[ind_com]

What exactly is happening right now within the last few hours? Any comrade from Greece?

[The Cheshire Cat]

For a moment you made me think there was a revolution going on or something. I quickly checked the news, but nope... You really dissapointed me! Your post sounded so promising...

[Ostrinski]

There's a general strike and demonstration in front of parliament.

[ind_com]

When I posted that I was almost convinced from rumours. :(

[ind_com]

There's a general strike and demonstration in front of parliament.

Good enough.

[fdfd]

More austerity measures are passing tonight. The demonstrations were large.

[Delenda Carthago]

This. (http://www.pamehellas.gr/index.php/en/press-releases/108-today-s-demonstration-of-pame-in-athens)

[erupt]

If a civil war arises and their is some type of significant Leftist involvement in Greece, would their be any chance of something along the lines of the International Brigades?

In other words, I'd imagine if something pops off in Greece, there'll be a lot of people from other austerity stricken Euro Zone countries who would want in on some action. Of course, it's just an opinion.

[The Cheshire Cat]

Those brigades are already prepared! Check the reforming ofthe international brugades group. For now it will not be a guerilla movement, we will just defend workers from nazis and police amongst others (check the group to see our plans) but we will also train for armed combat when legally possible.

[bricolage]

'if something pops off'
'in on some action'

this isn't a game, you're talking about war. seriously...

[Ravachol]

You guys do realize that:

1. As Bricolage said, this isn't a game. The situation you are assuming would not be like some regular demo with a bit of scuffles with the riot cops, a few bruises and arrests....

2. Participating in armed conflict abroad (or even calling out to do so) is punishable by various degrees of nasty almost everywhere. Just check out what happens to Islamists who volunteer to take a trip to Somalia to aid Al-Shabaab or who go to the Caucasus Emirate in Chechnya...

Not saying 'oh well whatever happens sit on your asses', just saying don't act like its no biggie and discuss it on public internet fora.

[erupt]

'if something pops off'
'in on some action'

this isn't a game, you're talking about war. seriously...

You're right, it sounds very desensitized. The last thing I want is injury, let alone death, but if something atrocious were to begin, I still have my questions as to what would hypothetically occur.

If a revolution did spontaneously occur in Greece, or anywhere for that matter, I would love a bloodless transfer of power, but history tells me otherwise when it comes to true war, civil or international.

Other than that, my phraseology didn't imply anything other than a quick uprising ("pops off") where people from other countries in the same position who may look at it as a chance at revenge ("in on some action.")

[Ravachol]

You're right, it sounds very desensitized. The last thing I want is injury, let alone death, but if something atrocious were to begin, I still have my questions as to what would hypothetically occur.


I know you probably mean well and I guess the spectacle's torrent of images, news clippings, riot porn and demo reports can paint a very desensitized and alienated picture, but there's a huge difference between thinking/speculating about engaging in conflict and actually doing this. This goes for small time stuff (getting in an actual streetfight vs the movie images of such or participating in a black bloc and confronting the riot cops vs some pix on tumblr) as well as for heavy stuff (like all the 18 year old kiddos I see in the train now and then, signing up for the army thinking it'll be just like call of duty :rolleyes:).

I don't think issues like these should be speculated upon or discussed on a public forum.



If a revolution did spontaneously occur in Greece, or anywhere for that matter, I would love a bloodless transfer of power, but history tells me otherwise when it comes to true war, civil or international.


Oh nobody here is saying there'll be a 'bloodless transfer of power'. Personally I don't think 'the revolution' is a singular event nor a long armed campaign at all but a protracted, constantly expanding qualitative shift occurring within a no doubt very messy period of turmoil.

The best way to contribute to a revolutionary process is to contribute to its expansion. Anything that remains confined within Greece or wherever is doomed to failure (either being crushed or ending up reproducing a different management mode of capitalism) so there's probs more we can do wherever we are than by all heading over to wherever the fires burn brightest.

[The Douche]

First, I would say, that when the time comes for combat, there are going to be those of us with skills learned who will be able to contribute much to the situation. I think it would be irresponsible of me to go around teaching people about small unit tactics or whatever right now, because it would get them and me in trouble, with little positive result.

Second, when things do start to kick off with regards to insurrection, the actions of revolutionaries in the countries supporting reaction will be very important, and we shouldn't abandon our struggles wherever we are to go hang out in the Greek mountains or whatever.

[ВАЛТЕР]

I think that this talk of war in Greece is a bit silly at this point. Greece is not quite in a position where the polarization of society has divided it into two opposing camps, revolutionary vs. reactionary.

Another thing I'd like to say is that the stuff you see in movies and TV about war is bullshit. You die on the ground in agony like an animal, no dramatic music plays, no last words of hope. You bleed and writhe in pain while nobody can hear you screaming over the deafening sound of gunfire and explosions. Childish fantasies about hiking through the mountains singing revolutionary songs, narrowly escaping death every time, and shooting hoards of fascists need to stop now.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Bravo, bravissimo. Revolution is a deadly, earnest business not some masturbatory fantasy. I also agree with comrade Walter that there is no evidence that revolutionary war is about to break out in Greece. The sad fact is that the Greek state is still able to impose its will on the suffering Greek people while the left is split and still dominated by parties that do not support revolution, and IMO neither SYRIZA nor the KKE have decisively rejected reformism.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Second, when things do start to kick off with regards to insurrection, the actions of revolutionaries in the countries supporting reaction will be very important, and we shouldn't abandon our struggles wherever we are to go hang out in the Greek mountains or whatever.

What actions are you speaking of, and how will they be important?

[The Douche]

What actions are you speaking of, and how will they be important?

1) generalizing the insurrection
2) militarily aiding the insurrection by disrupting capital and the military assistance (in whatever shape it takes)

[ВАЛТЕР]

Basically denouncing and exposing the propaganda of the ruling class in ones own nation and attacking the logistics that are intended for the battlefield by way of sabotage, barricades, and any other means at ones disposal. The formation of militant cells capable of carrying out these actions would be required. However, don't get too excited. I don't see it coming to this just yet.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Those things sound good and all, but ultimately I'm not sure that manifesting them into reality is any more realistic than reforming EAM. The pro-revolutionaries here in the USA and elsewhere have known about the situation in Greece since at least 2008, and haven't really accomplished anything of substance that I can see. In Greece itself discontented people have been busy buying into the fool's gold of SYRIZA and Golden Dawn, so I don't see much to be optimistic about there (in terms of people finally "waking up" and deciding that there needs to be serious substantive change in society that goes beyond elections and politicians).

[The Douche]

Those things sound good and all, but ultimately I'm not sure that manifesting them into reality is any more realistic than reforming EAM. The pro-revolutionaries here in the USA and elsewhere have known about the situation in Greece since at least 2008, and haven't really accomplished anything of substance that I can see. In Greece itself discontented people have been busy buying into the fool's gold of SYRIZA and Golden Dawn, so I don't see much to be optimistic about there (in terms of people finally "waking up" and deciding that there needs to be serious substantive change in society that goes beyond elections and politicians).

I didn't say it was an immediate potentiality, just saying, were the insurrection to occur, that would be the task at hand for the rest of us.

[Ravachol]

Besides all the speculation about what 'Es gibt kein ruhiges Hinterland!' would mean in practice (which isn't something for public discussion imo), I don't think anybody is being optimistic here. I mean there's always the possibility large scale ecological collapse will hit hard before any kind of revolutionary movement would be generalized, which would be a game changer to say the least. So yeah...

[The Douche]

Besides all the speculation about what 'Es gibt kein ruhiges Hinterland!' would mean in practice (which isn't something for public discussion imo), I don't think anybody is being optimistic here. I mean there's always the possibility large scale ecological collapse will hit hard before any kind of revolutionary movement would be generalized, which would be a game changer to say the least. So yeah...

I think this is more likely than any other scenario.

[Soomie]

Comrades, with all of the strikes and protests going on around the world, do you think we're getting closer to a revolution? I really would like to see one in my lifetime.

[ind_com]

Comrades, with all of the strikes and protests going on around the world, do you think we're getting closer to a revolution? I really would like to see one in my lifetime.

Obviously we will see revolutions in many third world countries. I think that we will be able to see revolutions in certain imperialist countries as well.

[Philosophos]

Obviously we will see revolutions in many third world countries. I think that we will be able to see revolutions in certain imperialist countries as well.

Well Greece has almost become a "3rd" world country. We have fascists on the one hand, communists and anarchists on the other side, some other bastards that don't know what they are... I smell a civil war or a coup like all Greeks....

[ind_com]

Well Greece has almost become a "3rd" world country. We have fascists on the one hand, communists and anarchists on the other side, some other bastards that don't know what they are... I smell a civil war or a coup like all Greeks....

Greece is still doing much better than the 3rd world. But more importantly, the Greek proletariat is not organized enough to seize power. There is no experienced communist party with a strong political and military line. But if class-struggle continues to intensify, anything might happen in some years.

[bricolage]

Comrades, with all of the strikes and protests going on around the world, do you think we're getting closer to a revolution? I really would like to see one in my lifetime.
no closer than the 70s.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Besides all the speculation about what 'Es gibt kein ruhiges Hinterland!' would mean in practice (which isn't something for public discussion imo), I don't think anybody is being optimistic here. I mean there's always the possibility large scale ecological collapse will hit hard before any kind of revolutionary movement would be generalized, which would be a game changer to say the least. So yeah...

Ecological collapse you say? *whew!* thanks for putting my mind at ease.

[Os Cangaceiros]

no closer than the 70s.

I don't think that the same solution to the labor problems of the 1970's can be applied today, though.

Back then the problems could be explained away by employees having too much power. Since the working class is pretty well emaciated right now in terms of it's bargaining power, both in the USA and Europe, I don't think that the same explanation or the same solutions apply...

[bricolage]

I don't think that the same solution to the labor problems of the 1970's can be applied today, though.

Back then the problems could be explained away by employees having too much power. Since the working class is pretty well emaciated right now in terms of it's bargaining power, both in the USA and Europe, I don't think that the same explanation or the same solutions apply...
no I agree that the situation isn't the same and that it can't be dealt with in the same way, I was just pointing out that you can't say we are close to a revolution based on the number of strikes and protests going on as there have been times pretty recent where the number of strikes and protests were much much higher and it didn't lead to anything except defeat.

[Philosophos]

Greece is still doing much better than the 3rd world. But more importantly, the Greek proletariat is not organized enough to seize power. There is no experienced communist party with a strong political and military line. But if class-struggle continues to intensify, anything might happen in some years.

There are some parties that are experienced but they are sell outs (that's my opinion I might be wrong from the very begining... not). The rest of the left parties are not sell outs but they are no very popular, they don't have experience, they don't have great influence.

The only way, again in my opinion, is to have some people that can influence the greeks (philosophers, college professors or someone with great way of talking) so he can start his work of waking up the working class and the rest.

I know that the individuals should do the "waking up part" by themselves but there are some very complicated variables in Greece that are difficult to explain and so greek people need something like a "messiah" or leader.
It's just tragique....

[brigadista]

Today 14 November 2012 is the anniversary of the 1973 Athens Polytechnic uprising...
just giving some respect

[Philosophos]

Today 14 November 2012 is the anniversary of the 1973 Athens Polytechnic uprising...
just giving some respect

I'm pretty sure it's 17th of November....

[brigadista]

I'm pretty sure it's 17th of November....

you would probably know better than me so early respect due ..:)

[Philosophos]

you would probably know better than me so early respect due ..:)

Don't worry you are not from here anyway :lol:

[brigadista]

Don't worry you are not from here anyway :lol:

i know that is why you would know better than me but i can never forget that struggle .:):)