51st State? Puerto Ricans opt for statehood in referendum

[Yazman]

Figured this would make for some good discussion.

The status of this US colony has been discussed heavily the past 20 years especially, but it looks like this referendum is fairly decisive. 61% of people voted for statehood.

Snippet (click link for full article):
SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) — A slim majority of Puerto Ricans sought to change their ties with the United States and become the 51st U.S. state in a non-binding referendum that would require final approval from Congress.
The two-part referendum asked whether the island wanted to change its 114-year relationship with the United States. Nearly 54 percent, or 922,374 people, sought to change it, while 46 percent, or 786,749 people, favored the status quo. Ninety-six percent of 1,643 precincts were reporting as of early Wednesday.
The second question asked voters to choose from three options, with statehood by far the favorite, garnering 61 percent. Sovereign free association, which would have allowed for more autonomy, received 33 percent, while independence got 5 percent.
President Barack Obama earlier expressed support for the referendum and pledged to respect the will of the people in the event of a clear majority.

Source:
http://www.salon.com/2012/11/07/puerto_ricans_opt_for_statehood_in_referendum/

Do you think Puerto Rico should become a state, or should it gain independence? Puerto Rican statehood could mean some changes in DC, for example the House of Reps & the Senate would both get new seats and the balance could change, especially with all the Puerto Ricans that would be able to vote.

Thoughts?

[Tenka]

I think as a fully incorporated state they'd be better off than they are as a "freely associated state". Not sure if it'll go through no matter what the referendum decided though: do U.S. politicians really want all those Puerto Ricans muckin' up their future elections?

[Yazman]

I think as a fully incorporated state they'd be better off than they are as a "freely associated state". Not sure if it'll go through no matter what the referendum decided though: do U.S. politicians really want all those Puerto Ricans muckin' up their future elections?

That's what I've been wondering. Since congressional approval is needed, I wonder if, especially with a Republican-controlled House, whether they will let PR in? I dunno.

Are there any comrades who know more in detail about Puerto Rico? My knowledge is restricted.

[The Douche]

PR is pretty socially conservative in general. But I mean, honestly, thats kind of how the hispanic voting bloc is, socially conservative but economically liberal.

[Raúl Duke]

Assuming Puerto Rico is approved to be a state by the US, which I'm skeptical of due to Republican xenophobia and the fact that Puerto Rican representation will lean heavily to the Democrats mostly due to perceived Republican racism and now recently perceived elitist since the current governor Fortuno is a "closet Republican" who pushed austerity on the island.
That doesn't mean they can't win, since large segments of Puerto Rico are very religious and thus social conservatives, but they need to campaign more "smarter" and dump the racists/xenophobes which I doubt the GOP will do any time soon.

Puerto Ricans have a mixed reaction towards the issue of immigration: bottom-line, they don't find the issue so important, and are mostly neutral. However, they find the anti-immigration rhetoric and the push for racial profiling laws offensive and here's where the main disagreement with the Republicans lie (people casually say that Republicans are racists in a matter of fact tone). Also, Puerto Ricans tend to support social programs, particularly universal ones (PR wanted universal public health care) and don't mind government intervention in favor for an "equitable society." All those things are what Republicans call derisively "socialism" (the word isn't much of a "bad word" in Puerto Rico relative to how it's perceived in the US). However, a segment of Puerto Ricans are receptive to anti-"means tested" (i.e. welfare, etc) social programs rhetoric. Also, note that Puerto Ricans are mostly employed in the public sector. Another thing is that Puerto Rico would probably be the poorest state of the union and it has a high unemployment, high murder rate, etc.

There's also the issue of language. Arguably, there's no federal-mandated "official language" so perhaps things could continue as they more or less are: Spanish official (in the state-level) primary language and English official secondary language.

However, some xenophobic Americans find the idea of a whole state made up of an island of Hispanics distasteful and don't see Puerto Ricans "assimilated" enough. They don't want them having their culture and/or their language.

On the Puerto Rican side, there's certain issues. For example, what about taxes? Currently, allegedly local island taxes are more or less equal to paying federal taxes yet so far PR is exempt from federal taxes. Paying both the island income tax and federal tax may be too high. Taxes may need to be reconfigured, although the corrupt politicians will probably find a way to make them stay high for their benefit. On the plus side, certain colonial taxes and acts (ley de cabotaje, etc; tariffs) may be eliminated. The drinking age may rise from 18 to 21.

[ComradeOfJoplin]

I do not know if Puerto Rico will get statehood or not, but I hope they do. They will provide more of a mix in our political culture, and I love there food.:wub:

[Prometeo liberado]

However, some xenophobic Americans find the idea of a whole state made up of an island of Hispanics distasteful and don't see Puerto Ricans "assimilated" enough.
But they accept Dade County Fla. right? So long as the brown people vote the way they are told then America will accept an Island of spider monkeys and not blink.

[Raúl Duke]

But they accept Dade County Fla. right? So long as the brown people vote the way they are told then America will accept an Island of spider monkeys and not blink.

You'll be surprised. I heard xenophobic things about Miami. They just stick with it because it's already there in Florida...

I heard people in this side of Florida complain "it sucks" on the basis that they can't speak Spanish/it's too Hispanic. Yeah, I guess what they felt about Miami is the same way I feel about South-West Florida...it's too white and filled with old people.

[GPDP]

From what I've been reading, it seems both Democrats and Republicans have said for years that they will honor whatever Puerto Rico decides to do. Obviously, action does not always reflect rhetoric, but there you go.

I'm actually just curious about how they're gonna deal with having to add another star to the flag. Not to mention that one song about the 50 states is gonna need an overhaul. :lol:

[Red Banana]

I really hope congress let's them become a state, but I doubt they will.

[Q]

So, Britain is degraded to the 52nd state. Poor them.

[Ostrinski]

So, Britain is degraded to the 52nd state. Poor them.53rd :thumbup1:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada)

[Yuppie Grinder]

54th. You're forgetting Israel, which is a US military base + shopping malls.

[Q]

54th. You're forgetting Israel, which is a US military base + shopping malls.

Ah yes, the US aircraft carrier that can't sink.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

I'm doubtful this can succeed. Boricua is corrupt as fuck and has a crime rate that would make Oakland shudder. Drug trafficking's high, population congestion is through the roof, illegal immigration from the Dominican Republic would explode and the amount of money the federal government would have to invest in the island can't be balanced by Puerto Rico's inclusion into the Union would disrupt the already flagging balance between "red" and "blue" states ( latinos have conquered New Mexico and Nevada in the name of the donkey (in retrospect, that seems a little racist doesn't it:mad:)).

[l'Enfermé]

If Britain is the 51st State if the US, what would it be after the US becomes the 23rd province of China? :p

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

what happened to my well thought out post (still figuring out the sight)

[Yazman]

54th. You're forgetting Israel, which is a US military base + shopping malls.

55th, you're forgetting Australia, whose ruling class kowtow non-stop to the US, although perhaps they have more backbone in this regard than the UK.

[Q]

I think we're on our way in establishing pretty well how the US is the top dog in the state system and how most other states are clients of the regime in Washinton.

So, sorry to go off topic, but let's get back on topic? :p

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

I can't believe no one mentioned American Samoa or Guam:D

[Jimmie Higgins]

What does this mean for local political consiousness in PR? I think the last time this came up there was a lot of "anti-america" agitation and opposition - though I don't know the details or how deep or wide-spread it was at the time; enough to defeat the initiative for some time anyway.

Someone link some article or something - we're all ignorant on this apparently!

[Jimmie Higgins]

US politicians might oppose this considering having to add another star to all those US flags will boost Chinese US flag production up and revive China's stagnating growth to pre-crisis levels.

[TheOther]

Raul: you are 100% right. You know around where I live people are extremely radicalized against spanish, muslims and against black people. I can't really explain the causes of hatred of the general white population (Rich and poor) against non-whites. I've heard theories that maybe there is a racism gene, that is embedded in the brains and nervous system of people. Or maybe the real cause of racism of whites against non-whites is envy of the rise in living standards of spanish, muslims, blacks and oriental sectors in USA. Or some other reason, maybe a feudalist mentality, family-narcissism or some other type of group-narcissism.

But having said all this, I think you are right about the hatred of the general white american population against Puerto Ricans and even against Hawai citizens, for reasons I cannot explain. Maybe there is a sort of fear of spanish, muslims, asians people "taking their jobs", as they say: "Taking our foods". Remember that there is a preaching in USA that non-USA citizens out there including Europeans want to destroy America and take the "freedoms" of americans, which is really a freedom to work 50 hours a week, to mow lawns on weekends, no college degrees, no health services. And then to die of diabetes, or cancer caused by the very low quality capitalist cheap food that most americans eat in the freedom of America which is really a hell of poverty, pain, diabetes, cancer and misery on earth for the majority of US citizens.

So i cannot explain the irrational hate that white americans have for Puerto Ricans, when Puerto Ricans should be treated like brothers and sisters of any state of the union of USA





Assuming Puerto Rico is approved to be a state by the US, which I'm skeptical of due to Republican xenophobia and the fact that Puerto Rican representation will lean heavily to the Democrats mostly due to perceived Republican racism and now recently perceived elitist since the current governor Fortuno is a "closet Republican" who pushed austerity on the island.
That doesn't mean they can't win, since large segments of Puerto Rico are very religious and thus social conservatives, but they need to campaign more "smarter" and dump the racists/xenophobes which I doubt the GOP will do any time soon.

Puerto Ricans have a mixed reaction towards the issue of immigration: bottom-line, they don't find the issue so important, and are mostly neutral. However, they find the anti-immigration rhetoric and the push for racial profiling laws offensive and here's where the main disagreement with the Republicans lie (people casually say that Republicans are racists in a matter of fact tone). Also, Puerto Ricans tend to support social programs, particularly universal ones (PR wanted universal public health care) and don't mind government intervention in favor for an "equitable society." All those things are what Republicans call derisively "socialism" (the word isn't much of a "bad word" in Puerto Rico relative to how it's perceived in the US). However, a segment of Puerto Ricans are receptive to anti-"means tested" (i.e. welfare, etc) social programs rhetoric. Also, note that Puerto Ricans are mostly employed in the public sector. Another thing is that Puerto Rico would probably be the poorest state of the union and it has a high unemployment, high murder rate, etc.

There's also the issue of language. Arguably, there's no federal-mandated "official language" so perhaps things could continue as they more or less are: Spanish official (in the state-level) primary language and English official secondary language.

However, some xenophobic Americans find the idea of a whole state made up of an island of Hispanics distasteful and don't see Puerto Ricans "assimilated" enough. They don't want them having their culture and/or their language.

On the Puerto Rican side, there's certain issues. For example, what about taxes? Currently, allegedly local island taxes are more or less equal to paying federal taxes yet so far PR is exempt from federal taxes. Paying both the island income tax and federal tax may be too high. Taxes may need to be reconfigured, although the corrupt politicians will probably find a way to make them stay high for their benefit. On the plus side, certain colonial taxes and acts (ley de cabotaje, etc; tariffs) may be eliminated. The drinking age may rise from 18 to 21.

[LiberationTheologist]

Puerto Ricans have their own cultural identity and their own language and thought which is not compatible with American mythology of the land of the free home of the brave land of the pilgrims pride land of genocide.

Assimilation is not desirable for anyone with a sense of history or ethics. I don't care if Puerto Ricans were to vote for total US colonization and begging to be a state, I reject further economic and cultural colonization on principle. I support a deliberate economic and cultural decolonization process by the USA.

This nonbinding referendum was very important for a couple of reasons number

1. This is the first time that the status quo colonizing party PPD has split their vote since the establishment of the political status quo was blessed by the USA imperialist ruling overlords in 1952. The effective split is almost guaranteed to grow toward more political infighting in the PPD and partisans have clearly shown they are ahead of the party on the issue.

2. This is the first time the other colonizing party the PNP (total yankee annexation party) has won a referendum since party foundation in 1960 or thereabout

3. The effective split in the PPD is almost guaranteed to grow toward more political and economic independence, the cat is out of the bag

4. It forced the soon to be governing colonial PPD to promise a constitutional assembly by 2014 which will further exacerbate the internal crisis of the PPD


The PNP which will still have its representative in congress for the next 4 years. Will deliver a total and irreversible annexation demand to the congress with the referendum results as a measure of "strong backing" for annexation.

The USA government which is an anglo/euro capitalist venture will never accept a spanish speaking territory as a state because that would open the door to other language demands primarily in the form of Spanish but also Hawaiin, Aleutian, other native peoples languages and maybe even more European language instruction. This is anathema to the entire history of the USA and will not be allowed neither from the ruling class or "the working class" of the USA, nor should it.

The economic stagnation of the island, due largely to US invasion and hollowing out of the nearly foodless insurance tax haven, with help of local collaborators, is quickly making life intolerable for most of the populace.

Puerto Rico is on the not so slow roll to political independence. I give thanks and praise to all who have and all who will struggle for national political liberation. Hasta la victoria siempre.

[Raúl Duke]

Maybe there is a sort of fear of spanish, muslims, asians people "taking their jobs"

In the case of Puerto Ricans, it goes a bit more beyond that since any Puerto Rican can easily move and work in the US; there's been diaspora centered to New York/North and now diaspora to other places in particular Florida (centered, for some reason, in Orlando). I see it mostly as a case of xenophobia rather than racism per se (i.e. many Puerto Ricans are white and Hispanic is an ethnic category separate from Anglo).


Puerto Rico is on the not so slow roll to political independence. I give thanks and praise to all who have and all who will struggle for national political liberation.

You do know that despite how ideal it may be in principle even to many Puerto Ricans, realistically most Puerto Ricans dread independence since they believe it will lead them to become something more akin to a "banana republic" of sorts and total poverty. I'm not joking about the total poverty, the way the economy is set up in PR has led to a situation where a large, perhaps majority, of the population are on government assistance which is funded by federal taxes. Puerto Rico, independently, cannot afford to sustain the welfare state the US federal government runs on the island.


This nonbinding referendum was very important for a couple of reasons...

You're forgetting that one reason is that more Puerto Ricans voted for "statehood" rather than the PPD gubernatorial candidate...
The current election for the PPD candidate doesn't say much about the feeling about status nor has it for since like the beginning of this century. The PNP lost because Fortuno is hated, it was a "punishment vote."


Assimilation is not desirable for anyone with a sense of history or ethics. I don't care if Puerto Ricans were to vote for total US colonization and begging to be a state, I reject further economic and cultural colonization on principle.

Well...
It's not really your decision.
Interestingly, Puerto Ricans would be opposed to further assimilation. As I mentioned earlier, they want what they essentially categorized as "el estadidad jibara" where they get to keep their language and culture (when Santorum went to PR and said "oh you guys had to speak English" the local media derided him and in the primaries he got the least votes). Technically, the official language of a state doesn't bar admission to the union since the federal government doesn't have an exact official language (although American xenophobes claim that, incorrectly).

I really don't mind, in the end I support the right of Puerto Ricans to choose a path that ends the colonial status irrespective of what it is (since neither 3 options have much bearing on whether or not socialism will happen on the island).


I support a deliberate economic and cultural decolonization process by the USA.

The US may prefer that too, actually. This way, instead of having to pay to maintain a welfare state on the island they can just turn it into a neo-colony like the DR.


that would open the door to other language demands primarily in the form of Spanish but also Hawaiin, Aleutian, other native peoples languages and maybe even more European language instruction.

I doubt that, I think you're blowing up the scale.
Assuming that PR is turned into a state under the PNP's thought-up scheme of the past yes PR keeps Spanish as an official language (English is also an official, albeit secondary, language) but I don't think this has any bearing on other states. Sure it would be nice if other states also learned other languages.


will not be allowed neither from the ruling class or "the working class" of the USA

This is more or less true. American xenophobes and their mostly Republican politicians in Congress will be skeptical of letting PR as a state or it may demand "English-only" instruction in schools which Puerto Rico would repudiate for historical reasons (i.e. before the ELA, the commonwealth, PR schools were controlled by American Protestants and were in English-only instruction for the most part. At the time, it was viewed as cultural imperialism both linguistically and religiously.)

[LiberationTheologist]

Raul: you are 100% right. You know around where I live people are extremely radicalized against spanish, muslims and against black people. I can't really explain the causes of hatred of the general white population (Rich and poor) against non-whites. I've heard theories that maybe there is a racism gene, that is embedded in the brains and nervous system of people. Or maybe the real cause of racism of whites against non-whites is envy of the rise in living standards of spanish, muslims, blacks and oriental sectors in USA. Or some other reason, maybe a feudalist mentality, family-narcissism or some other type of group-narcissism.

But having said all this, I think you are right about the hatred of the general white american population against Puerto Ricans and even against Hawai citizens, for reasons I cannot explain. Maybe there is a sort of fear of spanish, muslims, asians people "taking their jobs", as they say: "Taking our foods". Remember that there is a preaching in USA that non-USA citizens out there including Europeans want to destroy America and take the "freedoms" of americans, which is really a freedom to work 50 hours a week, to mow lawns on weekends, no college degrees, no health services. And then to die of diabetes, or cancer caused by the very low quality capitalist cheap food that most americans eat in the freedom of America which is really a hell of poverty, pain, diabetes, cancer and misery on earth for the majority of US citizens.

So i cannot explain the irrational hate that white americans have for Puerto Ricans, when Puerto Ricans should be treated like brothers and sisters of any state of the union of USA

You position is absolutely naive about historical reality and the nature of the US capitalist owned government in the following respect. Your position is naive racism and is in respects worse than those who openly complain about "the spics". You are promoting the continued economic and political domination of a occupied and conquered people under a "peace unity and love" equality principle which does everything it can to ignore the economic and cultural domination of Puerto Ricans by the imperialist occupying anglo capitalist nation since 1898.
This is a naive peace syndrome that so many US Democrat partisans suffer from.

Stop advocating that the occupied and oppressed unnecessarily join hands and sing we are the world as their oppressors continue to dominate and colonize them. Puerto Rico is and should be incompatible with the US dominant culture of murder, oppression, and capitalist domination.

[LiberationTheologist]

You do know that despite how ideal it may be in principle even to many Puerto Ricans, realistically most Puerto Ricans dread independence since they believe it will lead them to become something more akin to a "banana republic" of sorts and total poverty. I'm not joking about the total poverty, the way the economy is set up in PR has led to a situation where a large, perhaps majority, of the population are on government assistance which is funded by federal taxes. Puerto Rico, independently, cannot afford to sustain the welfare state the US federal government runs on the island.


You correctly point out that Puerto Rico is an economically stagnated impoverished place. But how did it get that way? Who is responsible for that? The economy of Puerto Rico has been agriculturally hollowed out and turned into an insurance, tax and banking haven first and foremost by the invading USA and the equally culpable colonizing local collaborators which have catered to foreign US capital and transnational Spanish banks to the detriment of local capital.

US occupation and colonization has stagnated the economy since the 1960's and has shown it is incapable of improving life there. Therefore in order to break this economic stagnation caused by the invaders and their local collaborators political independence must be established.


You're forgetting that one reason is that more Puerto Ricans voted for "statehood" rather than the PPD gubernatorial candidate...
The current election for the PPD candidate doesn't say much about the feeling about status nor has it for since like the beginning of this century. The PNP lost because Fortuno is hated, it was a "punishment vote."
No I am not forgetting anything, I'm well aware of the jibaro fantasy which claims that more subsistence welfare will both allow the Puerto Rican culture to thrive and be protected from the anglo culture and bring it great economic benefits. Both of these corresponding ideas are fantasy ideas being sold to PNP colonial party supporters just like the "best of both worlds nonsense" sold by the PPD since its creation the 1940's.


Well...
It's not really your decision.I am part of the puerto rican nation, so yes it is in part my decision. Unfortunately non Puerto Ricans are also allowed to vote in colonizer held referendums.


Interestingly, Puerto Ricans would be opposed to further assimilation. As I mentioned earlier, they want what they essentially categorized as "el estadidad jibara" where they get to keep their language and culture (when Santorum went to PR and said "oh you guys had to speak English" the local media derided him and in the primaries he got the least votes). Technically, the official language of a state doesn't bar admission to the union since the federal government doesn't have an exact official language (although American xenophobes claim that, incorrectly).A lot of Puerto Ricans are currently willing to trade political independence and their culture for subsistence welfare. But again I ask who created this situation? The USA invaders. The USA has a defacto language and it is english and to state it again it is enforced through economic policies which emanate from the US goverment. We both know who owns that government - capitalist interests.


I really don't mind, in the end I support the right of Puerto Ricans to choose a path that ends the colonial status irrespective of what it is (since neither 3 options have much bearing on whether or not socialism will happen on the island).I don't support a false "self determination vote" because a colonized, propagandized and economically fearful people which is what Puerto Rico is collectively, cannot and will not have a real self determination vote under these economic, social and mental conditions. I advocate a just economic and cultural decolonization process and political Independence. Self determination is a term which is often used to enforce the status quo of captial domination. I advocate for a better standard and a better term. Decolonization and economic independece are better standards to strive for.




The US may prefer that too, actually. This way, instead of having to pay to maintain a welfare state on the island they can just turn it into a neo-colony like the DR. What is worse a neo-colony or a full blown colony? It is absolutely an improvement to have political independence than to not have have political independence which can translate into economic empowerment. That is a very important step.



I doubt that, I think you're blowing up the scale.
Assuming that PR is turned into a state under the PNP's thought-up scheme of the past yes PR keeps Spanish as an official language (English is also an official, albeit secondary, language) but I don't think this has any bearing on other states. Sure it would be nice if other states also learned other languages. Ya I may be too optimistic on this front however the struggles of the colonized will go on. Most of Ireland lost their language yet they are bringing it back. Once one state offers the example of a non English speaking state then that will open the door and force the federal government to remove economic hurdles in its laws and legislation which is maintaining the historical economic policy of wiping out all languages other than English in the USA. This issue would exacerbate ethnic,class and capitalist tensions so it will be resisted fiercely by the US government and its proponents.

[Marlo]

I think Puerto Rico's statehood's bound to happen sometime anyway, especially with the majority vote this time around. But, I have a feeling they're going to just sit there with that majority vote and drool wondering what to do. :confused:

I'm just looking forward to the xenophobia from Republicans to screw themselves out of another demographic and the new flag design.

[Raúl Duke]

Personally, I prefer independence. But I just don't see that happening in the context of a referendum; even if it were possible a referendum decision towards independence would not lead to socialism.

I agree with you more or less if what you talk about is a socialist revolution in Puerto Rico, but whatever "the status" (between the 3 options, all bourgeois) is has little bearing on that. A Puerto Rico that's a colony, a state, or independent republic all have a chance towards socialism via revolution; so I see all this referendum stuff as more of a short-term thing and in relations to that I prefer any option that isn't the colonial one.


What is worse a neo-colony or a full blown colony? It is absolutely an improvement to have political independence than to not have have political independence which can translate into economic empowerment. But independence is a "risky gamble" that more likely than not will only worsen the social situation in PR if the current type of political leadership stays in place. Many people on the island are aware of this.

I'm well aware who created the current economic conditions in PR; but that's the thing: it's already a fait acompli, something real living people in the present have to deal with.

I don't see why you view being a state as being part of the "colony." Statehood would end the discriminatory and colonial "territory" status. I view both statehood and independence as the anti-colonial choices, one which is more popular and practical (in short-term; what Puerto Rico, and the US for that matter, needs is a socialist revolution) than the other.

The thing is, while I share some sympathy por los independentistas, I feel that asking for independence is mostly a pipe-dream at this point in time. Most Puerto Ricans don't support independence for a variety of reasons. There's no guarantee that independence will lead to economic and social revitalization, particularly if we continue to have the same kind of corrupt bourgeois politicians; but it will mean the end of the "life-line" that basically supports PR at this conjuncture in time and bring a lot of suffering to working class and impoverished Puerto Ricans as they see their living standards drop. While independence is ideal, we cannot forget that real living people will have to deal with the potential consequences.

Hell, I wouldn't mind if at least some sort of socialist-reformist-populist alla chavez came to power and than unilaterally made PR independent; as long as they do the right policies that will stabilize the economy on the island. But the likelihood of that is currently small and there's no guarantee that if PR became independent tomorrow that would be the case.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Lets not forget that no matter what happens, the U.S will retain a strong military "alliance" with Boricua due to its strategic locale . Asi que no matter what, commies won't win there.

[LiberationTheologist]

Personally, I prefer independence. But I just don't see that happening in the context of a referendum; even if it were possible a referendum decision towards independence would not lead to socialism.

I agree with you more or less if what you talk about is a socialist revolution in Puerto Rico, but whatever "the status" (between the 3 options, all bourgeois) is has little bearing on that.

A Puerto Rico that's a colony, a state, or independent republic all have a chance towards socialism via revolution; so I see all this referendum stuff as more of a short-term thing and in relations to that I prefer any option that isn't the colonial one.

Yes, that is right all options are capitalist (bourgeois) so tell me why are you and other single issue socialists attempting to stand in the way of political independence on ideological grounds? Notice that capitalist ideologues do the same thing but from the opposite ideological spectrum, they say no, no independence the communists will take over. As you said socialism will not come to puerto rico in a referendum vote, nor will it come as being part of the USA as history has proven over the last 100 plus years.

US occupation of Puerto Rico makes any social revolution that much less likely. The psychological weight of having the largest capitalist and long time running imperialist nation dominating your political and economic system makes any empowering revolution that much less likely. Consider for a minute the power of having a tiny nation of 4 million people saying to the largest capitalist behemoth occupying it "get out". The power of this action would rock the US government and its hordes of brainwashed flag wavers in "the land of the free."

This should be the socialist position, one of a regard for history and one that understands both the psychological and economic effect this will have on big capital and the newly liberated republic.


But independence is a "risky gamble" that more likely than not will only worsen the social situation in PR if the current type of political leadership stays in place. Many people on the island are aware of this. Neither the the PPD or PNP can realistically continue on as parties after political independence. They will have been defeated and demoralized to such an extent they will be meaningless shells even if they still did exist post political independence. This will automatically change the political landscape as far as political parties are concerned. This is an opening for other political parties ot fill the void, including socialist parties and new capitalist parties.


I don't see why you view being a state as being part of the "colony." Statehood would end the discriminatory and colonial "territory" status. I view both statehood and independence as the anti-colonial choices, one which is more popular and practical than the other. Political annexation, the badly named propaganda of "statehood" is a continuing economic cultural colonization. It will be a coup de grace of colonization but the body will still remain and must be disposed of.

The backwards political view of "detroying nations by allowing them to be gobbled up" on the way to revolution is the point of view of unethical shortsighted brainwashed socialists.


The thing is, while I share some sympathy por los independentistas, I feel that asking for independence is mostly a pipe-dream at this point in time. Most Puerto Ricans don't support independence for a variety of reasons. There's no guarantee that independence will lead to economic and social revitalization, particularly if we continue to have the same kind of corrupt bourgeois politicians; but it will mean the end of the "life-line" that basically supports PR at this conjuncture in time and bring a lot of suffering to working class and impoverished Puerto Ricans as they see their living standards drop. While independence is ideal, we cannot forget that real living people will have to deal with the potential consequences.The "life line" as you call it has destroyed the agricultural base of the island and destroyed local capital and made Puerto Ricans dependent subsistence welfare seekers. The suffering has been created by US capital takeover of Puerto Rico. Having political power will give the people of Puerto Rico the ability to fight back, if not at minimum gain meaningful concessions and allow it negotiate for the populace.

The USA is not just culturally but economically colonizing Puerto Rico, this must be understood as the fact it is. Will the mostly USA transnational corporations refuse to sell food to Puerto Ricans after independence, attempt to starve them like Cubans? No, no they will not.


Hell, I wouldn't mind if at least some sort of socialist-reformist-populist alla chavez came to power and than unilaterally made PR independent; as long as they do the right policies that will stabilize the economy on the island. But the likelihood of that is currently small and there's no guarantee that if PR became independent tomorrow that would be the case. There are no guarantees in life, but there are calculated risks. Enough of colonization, enough of fear, yes to diversity.

[Cyclone1776]

I say let the Puerto Ricans decide what they want. I don't believe in trying to influence anyone, especially on a hot topic like this.