The "Cool/Gangster" Youth

[Karabin]

Ever since primary school, I have always had contact with the cool, "popular" groups. Now that I am in college, there are a lot more of the wannabe "gangsters" who just listen to trashy hiphop, and are only concerned with having sex, using/dealing drugs and have no interest whatsoever in the wellbeing of any other individual but those in their group. Not to mention their abhorrent violence and tendency to harass people who are just minding their own business.

How do we deal with these people from a Marxist sociological perspective? I personally (As a result of my experiences) have no tolerance for these people; it would be different if they were from a poor proletariat background, but in my area they are all part of petty-bourgeoisie families. I like to think that these people are lumpenproletariat, but I'm not really sure if this applies to them. If a revolution were to occur, I feel that these people would just strive to somehow make a profit from the conflict and put other people in harms way, and thus they would have no interest in the revolution at all.

What benefit does this group of youth have to the revolution? What would be the most efficient way to deter this sort of behavior in a Socialist society? Also, I guess if anybody has any stories about dealings with groups of people like these then feel free to share.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'm not really sure what the issue is here. Steer clear of people you don't like or have much in common with I guess is the immediate thing :lol:.

There are several things going on in the post as far as I can tell so I'll try and seperate it out.

1. Why do people act in that particular way? Rebel-cultures tend to be romanticized and worked into pop-culture and this often isn't because of any sort of overt political identification - so some people romanticize Charles Manson for example, without really having a desire to murder people. Right wingers will romanticize outlaw vigillantes and Left-wingers will romanticize peasant bandits or bank robbers or whatnot. Hippies romanticized the Hells Angels and their "outlaw image" even though hippies tended towards utopian communism and lifestylism whereas some biker gangs were pretty right-wing - they had drugs and facial hair in common I guess.

It's a function of alienation I think and this imacts workers in a most profound way. But also the atomization of petty-bourgoise work and the kind of half-autonomous, but also constrained (like shop-owners are impacted by market forces out of their control and professionals have some autonomy but usually also have to answer to CEOs and other higher-up people) labor done by professionals tends to make this group in particular romanticize people in society they see as "totally free" and unconstrained.

So workers might romanticize gangsta culture or other outlaws because in the imaginary form they have both material wealth that workers often lack - and they don't have to answer to a boss and they can have respect by society (through money and power) without being brought up with elite an education or being from that part of society. For the petty-bourgoise experience, people probably admire the outlaw for not having to answer to anyone - which is why people romanticize gangstas as well as poor people outside the market (which is my explaination for the appeal of primitivism - maybe not the actual political idea but the sort of softer romanticization of very basic self-sustanability like all those Survior shows).

2. As for what would a socialist society do about this sort of behavior - I guess I'm not sure what aspect you mean - people being cruel or selfish? I guess first off, no one is born with an "asshole gene". So for this particular example, for working class and other perspectives, this kind of romanticization of drug-dealing and gang-life and the sub-cultre around it is totally dependant on the conditions of our society. Even without dealing with the larger issues of why "outlaws" are appealing - just ending things like the drug war for people in the US and decriminalizing drug use would deflate this appeal. The bigger issue of alienation would obviously only be delt with by a reorganization of society and production on a collective basis.

3. Can people like this benifit the revolution? Well for the petty-bourgoise in general (who always tend to be self-focused because of the nature of their relation to the production process and a sort of myths in which this sort of work is entangeld with - you know, "bootstraps") I think they (or more likely large swaths of this group) will have to be won over and convinced that worker's power is the better waggon to hitch themselves to than the bourgoise. For this to happen on a large scale, IMO it will take a worker's movement that is already pretty organized and consious and can activly present itself as a viable alternative force to run society. It won't convince all professionals and small owners, but I think that a powerful workers movement would bring large chunks of the non-ruling class non-prole parts of society along with it.

[Crimson Commissar]

The urban "gangster" society, or whatever you'd like to call it, essentially thrives solely off of the materialistic pop culture that Capitalism has forced upon us since roughly the beginning of the 20th century. Unfortunately I think what we often see is poor and misfortuned youths not rejecting this culture and trying to find alternative ways to organise against it, but actually embracing it and instead merely arguing that they should be the ones at the top of the food chain, not that it should be abolished completely.

During a transition to Socialism I think this sub-culture would mostly begin to die out. As the impoverished areas of western civilization are integrated into the main society, and the system of capitalism and materialism is replaced with values of co-operation and collectivism, the new generation of youth would take on an entirely different form while the old generation would hopefully leave their past behind them now that the conditions that caused them to feel the need to act out begin to fade away.

A lot of these people are just "rebels without a cause" in that they speak out against the ruling system but make no argument to actually have it changed. As consciousness begins to build amongst the less well off portions of the western world, it is conceivable that some of these people could actually attach themselves to more worthwhile causes, the ones that actually care that is.

[hetz]

How do we deal with these people from a Marxist sociological perspective?
Stay away from them. :laugh:


What benefit does this group of youth have to the revolution?
Most likely none, but what benefit do goths / nerds / whatever have to the revolution?

[Yuppie Grinder]

The urban "gangster" society, or whatever you'd like to call it, essentially thrives solely off of the materialistic pop culture that Capitalism has forced upon us since roughly the beginning of the 20th century. Unfortunately I think what we often see is poor and misfortuned youths not rejecting this culture and trying to find alternative ways to organise against it, but actually embracing it and instead merely arguing that they should be the ones at the top of the food chain, not that it should be abolished completely.

During a transition to Socialism I think this sub-culture would mostly begin to die out. As the impoverished areas of western civilization are integrated into the main society, and the system of capitalism and materialism is replaced with values of co-operation and collectivism, the new generation of youth would take on an entirely different form while the old generation would hopefully leave their past behind them now that the conditions that caused them to feel the need to act out begin to fade away.

A lot of these people are just "rebels without a cause" in that they speak out against the ruling system but make no argument to actually have it changed. As consciousness begins to build amongst the less well off portions of the western world, it is conceivable that some of these people could actually attach themselves to more worthwhile causes, the ones that actually care that is.
Materialistic =/= consumeristic.
Also, this thread is pretty silly. I listen to dumb rap music and do ignorant hoodrat shit and most would say I'm a good guy. The sort of people ya'll are talking about are just ordinary kids doing teenaged shit and having fun, its nothing to worry about. The heterosexist language is a problem, but hoodrat sorts are generally well meaning, just mischievous and rebellious for kicks, as youth should be.

[Decommissioner]

Nothing needs to be done, for the most part they aren't hurting anyone. Who is the "we" when saying that something "has to be done?" The state? The community? A random group of people?

There will always be a rebel culture in some sort or another, even under the most "utopian" of conditions. People identify with them for many reasons, but a huge reason is fun. There will always be counter culture, odd culture, and all sorts that run counter to "the" culture of a particular area. I would think under communism this would especially be the case, as most "mainstream" cultures around the world are bolstered by nationalism, consumerist media etc etc. things that will cease to exist under communist society.

As far as getting into other peoples business, or being a "nuisance" I don't think communism will or should magically solve the issue of assholes and jerks, or should aim to abolish all personal conflicts in some weird overt sense. They will always exist, part of maturing as a person is learning how to deal with them and growing thicker skin.

[ComradeOm]

Those kids with their strange clothes and horrible music! Nothing short of hooliganism! It will be the end of society, I tell you!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FbFxaJCM5KA/TdJ6ELGFhzI/AAAAAAAAA0A/CUk3-JFdXvU/s1600/prada-teddy-boys.jpg

(These are of course some Teddy Boys. I also could have referenced to, in rough chronological order, the macaronis, dandies, scuttlers, mods, rockers, hippies, rudeboys, soulboys and casuals. These are youth subcultures over the centuries from the UK alone over the past two centuries)

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Just like the Bolshies dealt with the drunks in the Winter Palace, shoot em in the face!

Really, you "grave-dug" this thread just for this comment?

[Goblin]

You're a big man
How is he a "big man"? Your the one talking about shooting people on the internet!

[Catma]

You're a big man

It's good to see they are putting more emphasis on grammar at troll school.

[piet11111]

It's good to see they are putting more emphasis on grammar at troll school.

True but that is only to be more effective at trolling grammar nazi's and spell-cheka's.