transphobes...

[Crux]

..turns out Roseanne Barr is one. This stuff is pretty sad:
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_mch bjb3Lcp1qaprzq.png&h=aAQH8ELDB&s=1

Btw this is what ann tagonist and Roseanne Barr is reacting to: http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/transgender-woman-told-leave-womens-locker-room/nSWT4/

Barr also, except for constant misgendering, referred to the transwoman as a "creep". She's trying to do a little bit a backpedalling at this point. But it's not working.

[l'Enfermé]

In the article the comments seem to be overwhelmingly hateful towards transgender-people:(

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

..turns out Roseanne Barr is one. This stuff is pretty sad:
I challenged her on it on Twitter, and she responded by telling me to "fuck off" and then blocked me.

This is who a supposed socialist and feminist political party chose to run as their presidential candidate this year. :confused:

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

In the article the comments seem to be overwhelmingly hateful towards transgender-people:(
General rule: if an article is about trans people, the comments will be more hateful than not.

[x-punk]

In the article the comments seem to be overwhelmingly hateful towards transgender-people:(

Some of the bigoted attitudes in the comments section are terrible. Especially considering the law in that state requires equal access to state facilities regardless of gender identity.

I have seen first hand some of the ridicule transgenders have to endure. It must be really tough and good on them for sticking with it in the face of such bigoted derision.

[Bronco]

So what did Roseanne Barr actually say?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

So what did Roseanne Barr actually say?
If you can't see the graphic, here's a link to it: http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mchbjb3Lcp1qaprzq.png

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Funny how you'd think a discriminated group would be empathetic to other discriminated groups in society. In reality, it's the exact opposite - I've met Romanians who complain about being treated like 'dumb peasants' by Hungarians, yet will forever go on about how the blacks and jews are 'polluting our economy'.

And this Roseanne is a supposed socialist?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Who is Roseanne Barr and what party does she represent?

[Igor]

Who is Roseanne Barr and what party does she represent?

actress/comedian representing peace and freedom party

[Raúl Duke]

The acceptance of trans people is not as widespread as say acceptance of gays and lesbians, and to some extent cuts across political lines.

Transphobia is very prevalent, more so than say homophobia.

Ironically though, the Peace and Freedom has this on their platform:

Equal treatment and benefits under the law for all families. Guarantee equal child custody, adoption, visitation privileges, and foster parenthood rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people.

[Crux]

Good on Cindy Sheehean for dropping out as Barr's VP. One of the issues was Barr basically drawing up her own platform and ignoring the PFP's platform, you know the party she is supposedly running as a representative of. And yeah Barr is, as far as I understand, a fairly recent "convert" to socialism. So to speak. And a "truther". And a transphobe apparently, so a bit all over the place.
So yeah, serious lapse of judgement for the PFP here.

Oh and here's her latest attempt at backpedalling: Roseanne Barr ‏@TheRealRoseanne (https://twitter.com/TheRealRoseanne) "transgender folks should have their own safe bathrooms-they should not be FORCED into bathrooms with young girls who hate them there."





Yeah...no. then again it's kind of hard backpedalling from 1) denying transpeople, specifically transwomens, right to their identity full stop and 2) implying that transwomen are creepy rapist men. Basically. And this was brought up as a way to score a point against Jill Stein. Mission accomplished. It would be a shame if the PFP lost their ballot access....but then again...

[Ocean Seal]

What a stupid choice. Why didn't the PFP pick someone who knew their politics or at least new how to shut up when the time calls.

[Crux]

What a stupid choice. Why didn't the PFP pick someone who knew their politics or at least new how to shut up when the time calls.
Or someone who's a socialist, rather than a multimillionaire who's quite frankly all over he place politically.

And yeah Barr will talk about socialism but I think this tweet, and her "Green Market Economy"-thing, says it the best:
Roseanne Barr ‏@TheRealRoseanne

I'm not a socialist I am an advocate of socialistic solutions when they r efficient.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Does anybody know if the PFP has responded any to Roseanne's comments?

[RedAnarchist]

I'm not a socialist I am an advocate of socialistic solutions when they r efficient.

Efficient, in this case, meaning "as long as it doesn't affect my money".

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Does anybody know if the PFP has responded any to Roseanne's comments?
I asked them on Twitter about her comments last night, but no response yet.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I asked them on Twitter about her comments last night, but no response yet.

Same here. I sent them a kindly worded message via their website earlier today and have yet to receive a response.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Good on Cindy Sheehean for dropping out as arr's VP.
They should have ran Sheehan as the top of the ticket in the first place, but oh wait, running Barr is a cynical, unprincipled attempt to get enough votes to keep their ballot access.


And yeah Barr is, as far as I understand, a fairly recent "convert" to socialism. So to speak. And a "truther". And a transphobe apparently, so a bit all over the place.
And pro-Zionist. And pro-capitalist (she's said before she doesn't want to actually get rid of capitalism).


Oh and here's her latest attempt at backpedalling: Roseanne Barr ‏@TheRealRoseanne (https://twitter.com/TheRealRoseanne) "transgender folks should have their own safe bathrooms-they should not be FORCED into bathrooms with young girls who hate them there."
Segregation. How lovely.

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

Made this, Scumbag Roseanne.

8923

[Tenka]

Roseanne Barr is a dirty conservative arsehole. You can tell by, among many other things, her buying into the classic conservative idea of transfolk and cross-dressers who were/are male-bodied: that they're creepy rapist perverts who "disguise" as women in order to GIT 'EM.

Frankly I think heterosexist male conservatives enjoy projecting their own sick sexual fantasies onto sexual minorities of all stripes, and it's a little disturbing that Roseanne has clearly bought into their narratives.

[Crux]

Roseanne Barr is a dirty conservative arsehole. You can tell by, among many other things, her buying into the classic conservative idea of transfolk and cross-dressers who were/are male-bodied: that they're creepy rapist perverts who "disguise" as women in order to GIT 'EM.

Frankly I think heterosexist male conservatives enjoy projecting their own sick sexual fantasies onto sexual minorities of all stripes, and it's a little disturbing that Roseanne has clearly bought into their narratives.
Indeed and transphobia runs deep. If any of those who mailed the PFP about this gets a response, please post it here.

[doesn't even make sense]

the classic conservative idea of transfolk and cross-dressers who were/are male-bodied: that they're creepy rapist perverts who "disguise" as women in order to GIT 'EM.

I've encountered this before. It's just bizarre. The town I used to live in was going to vote on whether trans people should be allowed to use restrooms appropriate to the gender they identify as. There were a bunch of people on busy intersections holding signs that said "KEEP MEN OUT OF WOMEN'S BATHROOMS". Alongside everything else they were seriously asserting that "all kinds of perverts" would be able to simply put on skirts and go into bathrooms to harass and molest women with impunity.


Frankly I think heterosexist male conservatives enjoy projecting their own sick sexual fantasies onto sexual minorities of all stripes, and it's a little disturbing that Roseanne has clearly bought into their narratives.

I'm kind of assuming their reasoning has something to do with the conservative belief that men (i.e. people with penises) are barely civilized beasts unable to restrain their predatory sexual instincts. I've always thought that meme had really fucking disturbing implications for what these people would do if they had the opportunity.

[Ele'ill]

Indeed and transphobia runs deep. If any of those who mailed the PFP about this gets a response, please post it here.

But let's also maybe not turn this into a revleft vs x thing.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Indeed and transphobia runs deep. If any of those who mailed the PFP about this gets a response, please post it here.

I got this...


To all our friends who asked about this over the last day,

I have issued a statement as the California State Chair of the Peace and Freedom Party on our party's view of transgender rights and related matters. I regret that some rather contradictory and unfortunately-phrased comments by one of our nominees raised confusion about our party's positions. Please be assured that for decades now, our party and its official bodies have strongly favored the position outlined in my statement. This statement has been placed on our official website and may be viewed at

http://www.peaceandfreedom.org/home/index.php?view=article&id=1030
Thank you very much for your expression of concern. Should you have any additional questions, please feel free to ask me.

With best wishes,
Kevin Akin, California State Chair
Peace and Freedom Party

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

hopefully they kick that douchebag then

[DasFapital]

Roseanne is just a washed up actress using half assed populist rhetoric to revitalize her career. Commit the next four years to building an actual PROGRESSIVE worker's movement in this country.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

hopefully they kick that douchebag then
They won't. They're essentially writing off what she said as "unfortunately-phrased comments."

[RedAnarchist]

They won't. They're essentially writing off what she said as "unfortunately-phrased comments."

And yet if they thought her and her comments would lose them some votes, they wouldn't be so dismissive of her vile bigotry.

[High School Marxist]

Did Coleen Francis have surgery to undergo a sexual operation change thing? If Coleen still has a penis, I don't think they should be in a women's bathroom.

[RedAnarchist]

Did Coleen Francis have surgery to undergo a sexual operation change thing? If Coleen still has a penis, I don't think they should be in a women's bathroom.

Why, when she is a woman?

[Ostrinski]

Did Coleen Francis have surgery to undergo a sexual operation change thing? If Coleen still has a penis, I don't think they should be in a women's bathroom.You would want to subject her to humiliation, bullying, and possibly even assault by forcing her to use a male's bathroom? Fuck right off.

[High School Marxist]

Yes, fuck me for thinking that penises are something that should stay out of the women's locker rooms.

[RedAnarchist]

Yes, fuck me for thinking that penises are something that should stay out of the women's locker rooms.

Except that she's a transwoman, not some pervert pretending to be trans* in order to get access to ciswomen.

[High School Marxist]

Well obviously that is true, RedAnarchist. I never claimed that she was a pervert or anything of the sort. I'm simply saying that penis = non-women facilities. Its very unfortunate for her and other transsexuals, but I think when it comes to things like restrooms, locker rooms, etc we should classify via genitalia.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

An important picture I think...

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSx8YOHqtyCRr_tyJ10pehuGPIckZnpp sqMZJXbY3BtEcrQTDMrNQ

Had colleen gone into the men's room she would have been seen as a woman,as who she is, because she had begun changing her outside appearance to match who she was on the inside. Considering the reaction this would have caused her going in would not have been an option.

[RedAnarchist]

Well obviously that is true, RedAnarchist. I never claimed that she was a pervert or anything of the sort. I'm simply saying that penis = non-women facilities. Its very unfortunate for her and other transsexuals, but I think when it comes to things like restrooms, locker rooms, etc we should classify via genitalia.

I guess you've never sat down just to piss, then?

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I've hated her even before this, her show sucked just as much as her reactionary idiocy.


Well obviously that is true, RedAnarchist. I never claimed that she was a pervert or anything of the sort. I'm simply saying that penis = non-women facilities. Its very unfortunate for her and other transsexuals, but I think when it comes to things like restrooms, locker rooms, etc we should classify via genitalia.

This is silly, I'm so serious, I'm failing to understand your logic here.

[High School Marxist]

I don't see why it's hard to grasp. A person who is has a penis, regardless of what they identify as, should use the male facilites. A person who has a vagina, regardless of what they identify as, should use female facilities. It's pretty logical.

[RedAnarchist]

I don't see why it's hard to grasp. A person who is has a penis, regardless of what they identify as, should use the male facilites. A person who has a vagina, regardless of what they identify as, should use female facilities. It's pretty logical.

What happens if the only facilities available are unisex? Can only intersex people go to the toilet?

Seriously, though, a trans person just wants to use the facilities available to people of the sex they identify with, regardless of the sex they were assigned at birth. Gender dysphoria is much more than just someone wanting "to be a different sex".

[Princess Luna]

I don't see why it's hard to grasp. A person who is has a penis, regardless of what they identify as, should use the male facilites. A person who has a vagina, regardless of what they identify as, should use female facilities. It's pretty logical.
It's called a Stall, no one can see you. Because of Stalls I think the entire idea of segregating bathrooms is a ridiculous holdover of Victorian morality.

[High School Marxist]

What happens if the only facilities available are unisex? Can only intersex people go to the toilet?

Seriously, though, a trans person just wants to use the facilities available to people of the sex they identify with, regardless of the sex they were assigned at birth. Gender dysphoria is much more than just someone wanting "to be a different sex".

Gender dysphoria is obviously more than that. And your first little example thing, is completely irrelevant and unrelated to the discussion at hand. But again, penises = men, vagina = women. Want to use the other facility? Get a sex change operation.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I don't see why it's hard to grasp. A person who is has a penis, regardless of what they identify as, should use the male facilites. A person who has a vagina, regardless of what they identify as, should use female facilities. It's pretty logical.

So, you're saying genitalia is the qualifier? You're implying here that transwomen are not women and transmen are not men, which is transphobic.

[High School Marxist]

I feel as if the left in general is way to quick to throw out the 'phobic' lines. How, in any way shape or form, is saying that Transwoman are more apt to use a man's bathroom than woman's displaying hatred or fear of them?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I don't see why it's hard to grasp. A person who is has a penis, regardless of what they identify as, should use the male facilites. A person who has a vagina, regardless of what they identify as, should use female facilities. It's pretty logical.
Trans women are women, therefore we should use women's facilities. Trans men are men, therefore they should use men's facilities.

For trans women especially, forcing us to use men's facilities could get us physically assaulted or worse.

Frankly, I don't think you have a clue what it is to be trans, and in your ignorance, you're advocating things that could get us hurt, not to mention you're dehumanizing us by classifying us by our genitals.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I feel as if the left in general is way to quick to throw out the 'phobic' lines.
Funny, people call you on your nonsense, and you just deflect it. The problem with the Left is there are some straight and/or cis white men in it who have no fucking clue about women, LGBT people, people of color, or any other marginalized group.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Did Coleen Francis have surgery to undergo a sexual operation change thing?
None of your fucking business.

Also, she lives in a state where the law says trans women can use women's facilities and trans men can use men's facilities. This is part of a comprehensive LGBT civil rights law passed a few years ago.

[High School Marxist]

Trans women are women, therefore we should use women's facilities. Trans men are men, therefore they should use men's facilities.

For trans women especially, forcing us to use men's facilities could get us physically assaulted or worse.

Frankly, I don't think you have a clue what it is to be trans, and in your ignorance, you're advocating things that could get us hurt, not to mention you're dehumanizing us by classifying us by our genitals.

Obviously I have no clue. And I agree- I am extremely ignorant. I've never met a Trans in my life, never really talked to any, so for all I know I could be advocating for the worst possible thing ever. I'm just stating what my uneducated, raw opinion is. I was also not aware of this legislation that had been passed. I thought it only applied to those who had undergone surgery.

I will contest the dehumanization argument. Nowhere have I made trans people out to be less than human, or inferior to anyone else. Classifying one by their genitals is the scientifically correct way, and not meant to dehumanize, nor does it dehumanize.

I just think that walking into a locker room and seeing a penis in a women's facility or a vagina in man's facility would just seem incorrect.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I will contest the dehumanization argument. Nowhere have I made trans people out to be less than human, or inferior to anyone else. Classifying one by their genitals is the scientifically correct way, and not meant to dehumanize, nor does it dehumanize.
As a trans person, I feel dehumanized whenever I'm reduced to the sum of my genitalia. Which is what you did.

[High School Marxist]

You feel inferior to other human beings and like less of a human when someone points out you have the genitalia of a different human sex than you identify with. I don't think this is dehumanization at all, merely some oversensitivity on your part.

[Tenka]

I will contest the dehumanization argument. Nowhere have I made trans people out to be less than human, or inferior to anyone else. Classifying one by their genitals is the scientifically correct way, and not meant to dehumanize, nor does it dehumanize.

I just think that walking into a locker room and seeing a penis in a women's facility or a vagina in man's facility would just seem incorrect.

You are not your penis (no matter how convincing the act!).
But suppose you are--suppose we are in fact to be socially classified by our genitals, and suppose differences therein necessitate these strictly segregated toiletry facilities. Shall we then have Penis bathrooms, Vagina bathrooms, and bathrooms for those of indeterminate genitalia or who are intersex?
How will you know 100% of the time? Cameras in the toilet cubicles?

Sorry, there's just no logical reason to segregate public bathrooms at all, let alone by the shape of users' genitals. Btw I'm pretty sure indecent exposure and sex in public bathrooms is illegal regardless of people's sex at birth, so whence all the fuss?

[RedAnarchist]

Consider yourself verbally warned, HSM. I would also suggest educating yourself about trans* people and cisgender privilege.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

You feel inferior to other human beings and like less of a human when someone points out you have the genitalia of a different human sex than you identify with. I don't think this is dehumanization at all, merely some oversensitivity on your part.
Actually, my genitalia are none of your business. But I think most people would feel dehumanized if they were reduced to the sum of their genitalia, trans or not.

Also, when someone belonging to a marginalized group speaks up about something relevant to their marginalization, try to listen to their point of view instead of calling them oversensitive.

[Hiero]

Consider yourself verbally warned, HSM. I would also suggest educating yourself about trans* people and cisgender privilege.

To fair, he is supposedly in high school, so you can hardly blame him for his lack of education on LBGT matters. I got to admit, it took me a bachelors degree to understand and be comfortable with issues around the LBGT community, and understand the difference between gender and sex.

[zoot_allures]

Classifying one by their genitals is the scientifically correct way, and not meant to dehumanize, nor does it dehumanize.
"scientifically correct"? In anthropology and psychology (among other fields), a distinction is drawn between biological sex and gender - with the former sometimes having very little relevance to the latter, and the latter being far more important to one's social role and personal identity.

And even in biology, would an organism's sex be determined by its genitals? It seems to me that it'd make more sense to use chromosomes. I'm not a biologist though.

In any case, I'm not in favour of segregating bathrooms, or much else. I'd rather have pretty much everything be unisex.

[Beeth]

Out of curiosity, what if guys walk into bathrooms under this pretext?

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

You feel inferior to other human beings and like less of a human when someone points out you have the genitalia of a different human sex than you identify with. I don't think this is dehumanization at all, merely some oversensitivity on your part.

Fucking wow.


Out of curiosity, what if guys walk into bathrooms under this pretext?

Ummm, I'm pretty sure you can easily tell whom is a transwoman and whom is a douchehole pervert.

[l'Enfermé]

Yeah your genitals are hardly a good criteria for determining your gender. Are castrated men not men?

[Rottenfruit]

Roseanne Barr is a dirty conservative arsehole. You can tell by, among many other things, her buying into the classic conservative idea of transfolk and cross-dressers who were/are male-bodied: that they're creepy rapist perverts who "disguise" as women in order to GIT 'EM.

Frankly I think heterosexist male conservatives enjoy projecting their own sick sexual fantasies onto sexual minorities of all stripes, and it's a little disturbing that Roseanne has clearly bought into their narratives.
Transphobia is a rampant problem on the right and the left, seriously whats with some "feminists" being rampant transphobes like Janice Raymond

[Devrim]

Consider yourself verbally warned, HSM. I would also suggest educating yourself about trans* people and cisgender privilege.

This absolutely amazes me. The idea that you can warn somebody for having the wrong ideas (on any subject) comes across to me as completely absurd.

I can understand warning people about behaviour, but warning people because of what they think means just telling people to shut up or risk being banned. I can understand if somebody is banned because people think that their ideas are incompatible with membership of a forum, but the idea that the ideas he holds aren't incompatible with membership of the forum, but that honestly expressing them (and I don't believe that anyone here thinks that this poster was trying to be offensive in anyway) will eventually turn out to be if he continues discussing this issue (when he collects enough warning to be banned) is ridiculous.

It is an attitude held by many people. If you think that it is wrong surely you should try to talk to him and persuade him that it is wrong rather than just use administrative action to silence him. This is, after all, a discussion board.

Devrim

[TheGodlessUtopian]

To fair, he is supposedly in high school, so you can hardly blame him for his lack of education on LBGT matters. I got to admit, it took me a bachelors degree to understand and be comfortable with issues around the LBGT community, and understand the difference between gender and sex.

I actually take the opposite road and say that High School is the perfect time to learn since young peoples peers are coming into their own identities than.With many schools having a sort of Gay-Straight-Transgender Alliance I do not see many excuses why a young person couldn't educate themselves on their queer peers. After all, the time to ask questions is when you do not understand something (the first encounter) and what situation is sooner than High School?

[Quail]

This absolutely amazes me. The idea that you can warn somebody for having the wrong ideas (on any subject) comes across to me as completely absurd.

I can understand warning people about behaviour, but warning people because of what they think means just telling people to shut up or risk being banned. I can understand if somebody is banned because people think that their ideas are incompatible with membership of a forum, but the idea that the ideas he holds aren't incompatible with membership of the forum, but that honestly expressing them (and I don't believe that anyone here thinks that this poster was trying to be offensive in anyway) will eventually turn out to be if he continues discussing this issue (when he collects enough warning to be banned) is ridiculous.

It is an attitude held by many people. If you think that it is wrong surely you should try to talk to him and persuade him that it is wrong rather than just use administrative action to silence him. This is, after all, a discussion board.

Devrim
Opinions that marginalise people aren't just harmless opinions though, and revolutionary leftists shouldn't hold opinions that make people in marginalised groups feel uncomfortable. I'm sure at some time we've all held dodgy opinions, but in order for people to change their mind they need to be called out. The poster in question continued to argue their opinion despite a trans member of this forum telling them she found it offensive, and several other members calling them out on it. Forums are for discussing differences of opinion, but this should also be a place that everyone feels happy to post in. If people are allowed to continue to make posts that a marginalised group find offensive, the opinions of that group don't get put across because they probably won't want to post here.

[blake 3:17]

This absolutely amazes me. The idea that you can warn somebody for having the wrong ideas (on any subject) comes across to me as completely absurd.

I can understand warning people about behaviour, but warning people because of what they think means just telling people to shut up or risk being banned. I can understand if somebody is banned because people think that their ideas are incompatible with membership of a forum, but the idea that the ideas he holds aren't incompatible with membership of the forum, but that honestly expressing them (and I don't believe that anyone here thinks that this poster was trying to be offensive in anyway) will eventually turn out to be if he continues discussing this issue (when he collects enough warning to be banned) is ridiculous.

It is an attitude held by many people. If you think that it is wrong surely you should try to talk to him and persuade him that it is wrong rather than just use administrative action to silence him. This is, after all, a discussion board.

Devrim

But you can warn someone for saying stupid things that they don't know anything about. HSM admits not knowing any trans people, but keeps going on.

One of the greatest and hardest lessons in life is how to STFU. When it comes to people who face terrific oppression on a daily basis, this is a gesture of basic solidarity.

[zoot_allures]

I actually take the opposite road and say that High School is the perfect time to learn since young peoples peers are coming into their own identities than.With many schools having a sort of Gay-Straight-Transgender Alliance I do not see many excuses why a young person couldn't educate themselves on their queer peers. After all, the time to ask questions is when you do not understand something (the first encounter) and what situation is sooner than High School?
On the other hand, when I was at secondary school, I sure didn't know any transgenders. I knew one gay guy and a few people who were bi.

They didn't have any education about trans issues either.

I'm only 21, and I went to school in a relatively liberal area of a relatively liberal country (Cornwall, UK). I can only imagine what the situation would be like in, say, the US Bible Belt.

That said, I think that if you hold strong opinions about anything, you should at least have educated yourself about it. It's not his fault if his school didn't teach him anything, but it is his responsibility to teach himself if he wants to pontificate.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

On the other hand, when I was at secondary school, I sure didn't know any transgenders. I knew one gay guy and a few people who were bi.

They didn't have any education about trans issues either.

I'm only 21, and I went to school in a relatively liberal area of a relatively liberal country (Cornwall, UK). I can only imagine what the situation would be like in, say, the US Bible Belt.

That said, I think that if you hold strong opinions about anything, you should at least have educated yourself about it. It's not his fault if his school didn't teach him anything, but it is his responsibility to teach himself if he wants to pontificate.

It, of course, depends on what area one lives in and whether such a group exists or not, but all in all, when one considers the exposure youth receive to queer culture and lives on television and elsewhere in the media I still see little excuses as to why a young person couldn't take it upon themselves to learn about their potential queer peers (internet makes this rather easy).

[Hiero]

I actually take the opposite road and say that High School is the perfect time to learn since young peoples peers are coming into their own identities than.With many schools having a sort of Gay-Straight-Transgender Alliance I do not see many excuses why a young person couldn't educate themselves on their queer peers. After all, the time to ask questions is when you do not understand something (the first encounter) and what situation is sooner than High School?

Thoose schools that have Gay Straighr Transgender Alliance probably fosters a very accepting environment. However alot of people's experiences are the opposite. I didn't even know that transgendered people existed untill university. I mean do you blame people who haven't been taught how to read for not educating themselves?


It almost comes down to an ontological question, HSM probably can not conceive of the existance of male bodied, femaled gendered people. One has to be provided the means to accept such existances, and that is what Gay-Straight-Transgener Alliances do. HSM is ignorant in thenon-judgemental sense, and revleft can be a great resource for educating people. Unless ofcourse we judge them for a structural issue.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

HSM is ignorant in thenon-judgemental sense, and revleft can be a great resource for educating people.
If they're open to learning, yes. Unfortunately, when people attempted to explain things, including a trans woman (me), he wasn't willing to hear a different point of view.

[Hiero]

If they're open to learning, yes. Unfortunately, when people attempted to explain things, including a trans woman (me), he wasn't willing to hear a different point of view.

Well I guess there always has to be a cut off.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Thoose schools that have Gay Straighr Transgender Alliance probably fosters a very accepting environment. However alot of people's experiences are the opposite. I didn't even know that transgendered people existed untill university. I mean do you blame people who haven't been taught how to read for not educating themselves?

The existence of a GSTA doesn't automatically mean an accepting enviroment; it does mean, however, that there is a segment of the school who supports queer people.

The comparison you gave is not "on par." Reading is slightly different than accepting others for who they are;reading is a specific ability acquired only through study while acceptance is something less conditional, something "there" from birth and only taken away due to circumstance. When it comes to questions like these there truly isn't any excuses for when one hears of disparaging remarks about queer people it would be no different than a racist talking about people of color;the moment you come into "contact," and are at a certain intellectual level capable of comprehending the conversation, you have the ability to start educating yourself.

Some of us took longer than others due to the places we lived, the people we interacted with and the ideologies we held.But the essential point remains unchanged: the information is there and it is waiting for people to read it.

[Beeth]

Fucking wow.



Ummm, I'm pretty sure you can easily tell whom is a transwoman and whom is a douchehole pervert.

Really? Lets say a guy is dressed in women's clothes, claims to be a transwoman. How will you find out if he is genuine or a pervert? Do you have magic powers? Will you somehow read his mind?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Really? Lets say a guy is dressed in women's clothes, claims to be a transwoman. How will you find out if he is genuine or a pervert? Do you have magic powers? Will you somehow read his mind?

Looking at the person's history will often tell you. Does the person identify everyday as their preferred sex, do they always wear clothes prescribed to a gender which matches the one they identify with, as well as remarks from their family and friends. While one cannot gleam this from a momentary contact, if one is active in their community than they should know who the transsexuals are and who the perverts are.

[Y-Love]

It is an attitude held by many people. If you think that it is wrong surely you should try to talk to him and persuade him that it is wrong rather than just use administrative action to silence him. This is, after all, a discussion board.

Devrim

HSM, IMO, does not "have an attitude held by many people", HSM is sorely mis-educated on the idea of gender. I got furious reading HSM's posts - holding the perfectly wrong idea that genitalia have anything at all to do with gender, a psychosocial construct. (While they may match, and do in cisgender people - the majority of people, to say "boy parts = boy brain" is not correct.)

To say "if you have a penis go into a mens room" is equivalent to saying "if you have a penis you're a boy" -- one of the most offensive things you can possibly say to a transperson...

[zoot_allures]

HSM, IMO, does not "have an attitude held by many people"
I guess we hang around very different crowds. The vast majority of people I know would agree with HSM's attitude.

Unfortunately, there are very few people out there who aren't "sorely mis-educated on the idea of gender" - in my experience at least.

[black magick hustla]

i guess the point of some posters is that a lot of women would feel uncomfortable about a transwoman taking a piss on the second stall, cuz they would see her as a man. similar to like gazillion other threads about how some women explained how they feel insecure around some type of agressive men etc. gendered bathrooms are stupid anyway, there should be unisex ones.

[Beeth]

Looking at the person's history will often tell you. Does the person identify everyday as their preferred sex, do they always wear clothes prescribed to a gender which matches the one they identify with, as well as remarks from their family and friends. While one cannot gleam this from a momentary contact, if one is active in their community than they should know who the transsexuals are and who the perverts are.

It is easy to talk about it on the Internet. But women who are in the bathroom ... and they suddenly see whom they think is a guy. Surely you could understand their reaction?

[Beeth]

Are there ppl here who believe that only after surgery should a transwoman be able to use a woman's bathroom? Why? If not, why not?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

It is easy to talk about it on the Internet. But women who are in the bathroom ... and they suddenly see whom they think is a guy. Surely you could understand their reaction?
As an out and visibly trans woman since the 1990s, I can only recall one occasion where a cis woman had a negative reaction to me being in the same restroom.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

It is easy to talk about it on the Internet. But women who are in the bathroom ... and they suddenly see whom they think is a guy. Surely you could understand their reaction?
Just as much as I could understand the reaction of a Confed Texan to a black guy shopping at his store - pure bigotry and ignorance.

Fuck apologism.

[Devrim]

But you can warn someone for saying stupid things that they don't know anything about. HSM admits not knowing any trans people, but keeps going on.

One of the greatest and hardest lessons in life is how to STFU. When it comes to people who face terrific oppression on a daily basis, this is a gesture of basic solidarity.

But surely the key is to convince them of the validity of your point rather than take administrative action to silence people.


I'm sure at some time we've all held dodgy opinions, but in order for people to change their mind they need to be called out.

I am not sure that 'calling people out' is the way to change people's opinions. Surely the best way is to discuss things with people.

Devrim

[Devrim]

It is easy to talk about it on the Internet. But women who are in the bathroom ... and they suddenly see whom they think is a guy. Surely you could understand their reaction?Just as much as I could understand the reaction of a Confed Texan to a black guy shopping at his store - pure bigotry and ignorance.

Fuck apologism.

Well comparing people to hardline racists really helps a discussion, doesn't it?

The last time I came across an incident like this in my life was a couple of years ago when I was at a swimming pool with my ex-wife, and she came out of the changing rooms saying there was some incident with some women being uncomfortable with transexuals in there.

Now this happened in Ankara, where first, changing rooms are generally open plan without cubicles, second, there have been many incidents reported in the newspapers concerning men dressing as women to go and 'perv' at women including some that ended in sexual assaults, and thirdly in a country that has horrific levels of violence against women, as a recent report showed higher than anywhere else in Europe or North America.

Now, do you really think that these women were 'purely bigoted and ignorant', or perhaps genuinely worried about the situation.

Devrim

[Hiero]

Now, do you really think that these women were 'purely bigoted and ignorant', or perhaps genuinely worried about the situation.

That is sort of where I was hading in my posts. It is quite a strange contradiction where we often say 'society is patriachial, racists, classist', yet when we discuss issues involving people being sexists for example we talk about them as bigoted individuals on the fringe of society.

To TheGodlessUtopian's comments, what would motivate people to research about gender and sex equality?

In the case of race, there has been alot more discourse around racism then there has been around gender and sex, especially around trans people. Extreme old school racism is frowned upon even in the majority white enclaves. I grew up knowing racism was always wrong, but not knowing why. This leads to another acceptance of racism, which is structural racism (ignoring structural and economic inequalities between ethnicities and judging deprived people on invidual cases) and cultural racism (dismissing and criticising people's culture as ignorant or less valued). What this means, for the white and cisgender majority of America, the world is what it is. Meaning, there is a common sense held by this people on how the world functions, there is no need to go out and research about people who you may have limited interaction with. There is merely accommodation, we will grant them permssion to enter "our" world.

It is almost a very neo-liberal model to assume it is only about self development that someone is bigoted and not the social environment one finds oneself in.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Now, do you really think that these women were 'purely bigoted and ignorant', or perhaps genuinely worried about the situation.
Cis men have assaulted cis women, so cis women being worried by trans women strikes me as having some degree of ignorance. Also, a society where it's unsafe to be a cis woman is also one where it's unsafe to be a trans woman.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

In the case of race, there has been alot more discourse around racism then there has been around gender and sex, especially around trans people. Extreme old school racism is frowned upon even in the majority white enclaves. I grew up knowing racism was always wrong, but not knowing why. This leads to another acceptance of racism, which is structural racism (ignoring structural and economic inequalities between ethnicities and judging deprived people on invidual cases) and cultural racism (dismissing and criticising people's culture as ignorant or less valued). What this means, for the white and cisgender majority of America, the world is what it is. Meaning, there is a common sense held by this people on how the world functions, there is no need to go out and research about people who you may have limited interaction with. There is merely accommodation, we will grant them permssion to enter "our" world.

It is almost a very neo-liberal model to assume it is only about self development that someone is bigoted and not the social environment one finds oneself in.

Self-development and social-environment go hand-in-hand. The two are heavily augmented by each other. I don't believe I ever said that it was only about development as it is implied that development is based on one's environment and how one learns.As for your comments about racism I would say in large they apply towards queer life and discrimination as well (assuming I understood you correctly); one merely has to understand that both are in varying stages of societal consciousness (for lack of a better word).For instance: a child not understanding why or why not racism is in-acceptable or acceptable wouldn't fit into your own anecdote because you didn't know why it was unacceptable.I said previously that when one has the mental capacity to understand can one start "researching".

[Devrim]

Cis men have assaulted cis women, so cis women being worried by trans women strikes me as having some degree of ignorance.

I'd just like to be clear about what you are saying here because it seems to me that what you are saying is, to paraphrase, "[Biological males dressed as women] have assaulted cis women, so cis women being worried by [Biological males dressed as women] strikes me as having some degree of ignorance."


Also, a society where it's unsafe to be a cis woman is also one where it's unsafe to be a trans woman.

This is undoubtedly true. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Turkey had the highest number of attacks against transgender people in North America and Europe (similar to the statistics I mentioned earlier about women). Looking at the 'List of unlawfully killed transgender people' on Wiki, the two entrants for 2011 are from Istanbul, and I have certainly seen newspaper articles talking about others this year.

While true though, I don't see how this relates to the point.

Devrim

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I'd just like to be clear about what you are saying here because it seems to me that what you are saying is, to paraphrase, "[Biological males dressed as women] have assaulted cis women, so cis women being worried by [Biological males dressed as women] strikes me as having some degree of ignorance."
I'm saying that if cis men assaulted cis women, cis women being worried by trans women is ignorant. The problem is misogynistic cis men, not trans women. And if you're characterizing trans women as "biological males dressed as women", that's offensive.


While true though, I don't see how this relates to the point.
My point? Cis women and trans women should be allies against misogyny.

[Devrim]

I'm saying that if cis men assaulted cis women, cis women being worried by trans women is ignorant. The problem is misogynistic cis men, not trans women.

So if am woman sees a biological male body getting undressed from woman’s clothes in a changing room how exactly is she supposed to know the difference? Don't you even understand that people might feel frightened by this?


And if you're characterizing trans women as "biological males dressed as women", that's offensive.

I'm not charecterising anybody as anything. I am merely asking a question.


My point? Cis women and trans women should be allies against misogyny.

And what does what should be the case have to do with the point?

Devrim

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

So if am woman sees a biological male body getting undressed from woman’s clothes in a changing room how exactly is she supposed to know the difference? Don't you even understand that people might feel frightened by this?
It would help if there was more awareness of the issue, so that some cis women wouldn't be frightened by what they don't understand. So, yes, I would still categorize it as fear based on ignorance.

You also need to realize that trans woman have the same worries about cis men, which is why forcing trans women to use male facilities (a some have suggested) is a terrible idea.

If we didn't live in such terribly misogynistic societies, unisex facilities would be a workable idea.

[Niall]

I challenged her on it on Twitter, and she responded by telling me to "fuck off" and then blocked me.

This is who a supposed socialist and feminist political party chose to run as their presidential candidate this year. :confused:

well, that says all you need to know about her then

[Ravachol]

i guess the point of some posters is that a lot of women would feel uncomfortable about a transwoman taking a piss on the second stall, cuz they would see her as a man. similar to like gazillion other threads about how some women explained how they feel insecure around some type of agressive men etc. gendered bathrooms are stupid anyway, there should be unisex ones.

I don't know about that latter comment man, there's some unisex bathrooms at schools/workplaces around here and many girls I know feel really, really uncomfortable with that with the usual creeps and douches using it as an opportunity to act all sexist and pervy. Sure, in a world were gender relations (or gender in general, actually) is abolished I'd say what's the big fuss but I can understand why some women prefer split bathrooms.

Besides urinals creep me out anyway so I say do away with them, whats up with standing next to people holding their dicks in their hands and having awkward exchanges of words and looks fuck that shit.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

The idea of unisex bathrooms is a good one but such restrooms shouldn't be a person's only option while we still live in such a reactionary society.Some people still have their personal feelings to take into consideration as well as the disruptive attitudes of various creeps (which has others have noted can be a factor on whether the unisex restroom will survive in the successful promotion of such facilities).

[Devrim]

It would help if there was more awareness of the issue, so that some cis women wouldn't be frightened by what they don't understand. So, yes, I would still categorize it as fear based on ignorance.

I don't think that any amount of 'awareness' would mean that a woman while getting changed and chatting to her friends who glimpsed a male body out of the corner of her eye (in a changing room in Turkey) would not feel frightened.


You also need to realize that trans woman have the same worries about cis men, which is why forcing trans women to use male facilities (a some have suggested) is a terrible idea.

I haven't suggested that, and I can see that it is problematic. I don't claim to have all of the solutions to it. I just think that typifying people who suggest it as being akin to hardcore racists as was done on this thread, though not by yourself, doesn't help in anyway.


If we didn't live in such terribly misogynistic societies, unisex facilities would be a workable idea.

But we do.

Devrim

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I don't think that any amount of 'awareness' would mean that a woman while getting changed and chatting to her friends who glimpsed a male body out of the corner of her eye (in a changing room in Turkey) would not feel frightened.
There are several assumptions there. That there's no possibility that any cis woman would be chatting with a trans woman friend in the changing room. That all cis women aware that someone was a trans woman and not a cis man would feel frightened. That if those cis women had more awareness of the issue they would still feel just as frightened.


But we do.
Of course. Which is a problem for those of who are trans women. We can 1) stay out of spaces like bathrooms and changing rooms; 2) use spaces designated for males, invalidating who we are while risking assault, rape, and/or murder; 3) use spaces designated for females, risking causing fear to cis women who are either transphobes or merely uninformed, as well as risking being arrested (in many places, we would then be placed in a male jail, again risking assault, rape, and/or murder.)

I'm lucky enough to live in a US state where the law protects my right to use spaces consistent with my gender identity. In most of the US, and indeed most of the world, that simply isn't the case.

[Leftsolidarity]

This absolutely amazes me. The idea that you can warn somebody for having the wrong ideas (on any subject) comes across to me as completely absurd.

I can understand warning people about behaviour, but warning people because of what they think means just telling people to shut up or risk being banned. I can understand if somebody is banned because people think that their ideas are incompatible with membership of a forum, but the idea that the ideas he holds aren't incompatible with membership of the forum, but that honestly expressing them (and I don't believe that anyone here thinks that this poster was trying to be offensive in anyway) will eventually turn out to be if he continues discussing this issue (when he collects enough warning to be banned) is ridiculous.

It is an attitude held by many people. If you think that it is wrong surely you should try to talk to him and persuade him that it is wrong rather than just use administrative action to silence him. This is, after all, a discussion board.

Devrim

I would not feel comfortable on this forum if it were to tolerate trans phobic or other anti-queer views.

[Devrim]

I would not feel comfortable on this forum if it were to tolerate trans phobic or other anti-queer views.

But I didn't say that it should. I can understand banning people whose views aren't acceptable or make people uncomfortable. What I don't understand is warning people for their ideas as if administrative action is going to change them.

Devrim

[Devrim]

There are several assumptions there. That there's no possibility that any cis woman would be chatting with a trans woman friend in the changing room. That all cis women aware that someone was a trans woman and not a cis man would feel frightened. That if those cis women had more awareness of the issue they would still feel just as frightened.

I don't think there are any assumptions being made at all here. I am talking about a real incident that happened. The question is though how can women in an open plan changing room know that a person with male sexual organs getting changed there is transgender, or somebody wanting to perv at or attack women, which is not an uncommon incidence in Turkey.

Devrim

[TheGodlessUtopian]

But I didn't say that it should. I can understand banning people whose views aren't acceptable or make people uncomfortable. What I don't understand is warning people for their ideas as if administrative action is going to change them.

Devrim

The user in question-HSM-had been given first hand experience in this thread before hand and yet he persisted in his anti-queer prejudice. The warning was meant as a slight prod to encourage them to look into the subject more and change their views through education. It is really no different than what we do with racist or homophobes; as we ban such people I believe a young person, like HSM, who seemed ignorant, was given a "slap on the wrist" compared to the actions normally undertaken against such people.

Administrative action may not change his views by itself but it is a show of force that RevLeft is serious about protecting their members from discrimination and that such reactionary views on gender will not be allowed. Had that verbal warning never been given he never would have known the policies, per se.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

The question is though how can women in an open plan changing room know that a person with male sexual organs getting changed there is transgender, or somebody wanting to perv at or attack women, which is not an uncommon incidence in Turkey.
First, there's an issue here with how you keep saying "women" when you really only mean cis women, which leads to an othering of trans women.

Second, I'm not at all familiar with the laws in Turkey regarding trans people being issued gender identity appropriate identification, which would allow trans women to use female facilities while keeping out cis men.

[blake 3:17]

A couple of things on change rooms and washrooms: There've been some positive developments lately in Toronto about providing safe accessible unisex washrooms and change rooms for pools/gyms.

This has come to forefront through both trans struggles and the increasing number of men acting as primary caregivers to their children.

@Devrim -- It sounds like what you're talking about is fighting sexism and sexual violence. Good. Could you share a backgrounder about the situation in Turkey?

@Danielle -- It would be helpful to explain terms like "cis". Trans culture has changed a lot in recent years, and I'm not always up on what's going on and how people are talking about it. I've been excited by some stuff coming from Critical Trans Studies, but I sometimes don't know the vocabulary.

Thanks!

[TheGodlessUtopian]

@Danielle -- It would be helpful to explain terms like "cis". Trans culture has changed a lot in recent years, and I'm not always up on what's going on and how people are talking about it. I've been excited by some stuff coming from Critical Trans Studies, but I sometimes don't know the vocabulary.

Thanks!

"Cis" is a prefix which denotes a person who identifies with the sex they were born into. For instance: I am cisegender homosexual.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

@Danielle -- It would be helpful to explain terms like "cis".
As TheGodlessUtopian pointed out, it's someone who isn't trans, i.e. their gender identity and the physical sex they were born with are congruent.

It means that we can describe cis men or women and trans men or women as men or women without implying that one is a "real man or woman" and one isn't.

[blake 3:17]

Ontario: Trans student barred from using men's washroom
BY NATASHA BARSOTTI —

A 16-year-old transgender student has been denied access to the men's washroom in his Ontario high school; instead, he must use the women's washroom or a private washroom that requires a key from the main office, the Toronto Star reports.

James Spencer has collected signatures from half the students in Durham Region's Clark High School for a petition to allow him to use the men's washroom, but so far to no avail. According to the report, Spencer thought the school's administration was just "figuring it out" and that the current arrangement was temporary. "But as time went on they’re portraying the message that transgender people are wrong and they need to be segregated," he told the Star.

“I pretty much came out to the entire school with that petition and the students were phenomenal, and I didn't expect that much support or acceptance from the students,” Spencer says, adding that he expected more support from the school board and principal.

He alleges he was also asked to use a washroom at a Harvey's near the school, but the school denies this.

“I think we have to be careful that we accommodate students as best we can, but we also have to be conscious that not everyone might feel comfortable with that at this point,” Martin Twiss, superintendent of education at the Kawartha Pine Ridge District School Board, says. “I think we have to do some education and some preparatory work to make sure that it’s managed in a way that everybody understands the situation and it’s managed safely.”

http://www.xtra.ca/blog/national/post/2012/11/14/Ontario-Trans-student-barred-from-using-mens-washroom.aspx

[Devrim]

First, there's an issue here with how you keep saying "women" when you really only mean cis women, which leads to an othering of trans women.

Because things become much clearer when you use terms that hardly anybody understands.


Second, I'm not at all familiar with the laws in Turkey regarding trans people being issued gender identity appropriate identification, which would allow trans women to use female facilities while keeping out cis men.

In Turkey post operation transsexuals are assigned with a card, blue for boys, pink for girls, which matches their chosen sex. That is it.


@Devrim... Could you share a backgrounder about the situation in Turkey?

It is quite widely documented on the internet. There was a UN report quite recently that said that 39% of women in Turkey are the victims of domestic or sexual violence. This was the highest figure in the study, which covered all European and North American countries, about double the figure for the US:


Turkey tops Europe and the US in the number of incidences of violence against women, according to a report by UN Women released in early July.

Titled “Progress of the World’s Women: In Pursuit of Justice,” the report finds that justice for women in Turkey and around the world is still out of reach. Highlighting the prevalence of gender injustices, the report has concerning figures of violence against women around the world.
Despite domestic violence now being outlawed in 125 countries, globally 603 million women live in countries where domestic violence is not considered a crime, states the UN Women report.
Thirty-nine percent of women in Turkey have suffered from physical violence at some time, as stated in the report. In comparison, this figure is 22 percent in the US and between 3 to 35 percent in 20 European countries. Turkey struggles more than the US and many EU countries with violence against women; in fact, the only countries that exceed Turkey in the report are those of Sub-Saharan Africa and the Pacific island nation of Kiribati.
In 2010, 10 percent of women in Turkey reported being subject to some form of physical violence. While Turkey continued to lag behind the US and the EU, it did fare better than some countries in the Middle East and North Africa in the prevalence of physical violence.
In Turkey, 15 percent of women reported having been victims of sexual violence. The only countries where there were higher rates of the sexual abuse of women were Kiribati and Sub-Saharan Africa. Georgia proved to be a safe haven for women with only 2 percent reporting to ever having experienced sexual violence.
Figures on the acceptance of violence against women were also quite telling. The report found that in 17 out of 41 countries, 25 percent or more of people believe it is justifiable for a man to hit his wife. Slightly fewer Turks (22 percent) would agree with this statement, while more people in Germany (28 percent) and China (23 percent) share this perception of domestic abuse. In the US, however, 16 percent of people and an average of 18 percent in European countries agreed that it is sometimes acceptable for a man to beat his wife.
The findings of the UN Women’s report are revealing for Turkey and its standing on the global stage on the issue of violence against women. In all three categories defined by UN Women, countries of Sub-Saharan Africa and East Asia and the Pacific are the only places where women are more severely threatened by violence than Turkey.
Though Turkey fared poorly compared to Europe and the US in these findings, Human Rights Watch (HRW) author of “‘He Loves You, He Beats You’: Family Violence in Turkey and Access to Protection,” Gauri van Gulik said that it is important to remember that domestic violence is not a “problem that’s contained in a country.”
“This problem [domestic violence] is truly happening everywhere in the world. Europe is no exception,” said van Gulik. According to HRW findings, 20 to 25 percent of women in Europe have suffered from domestic abuse.
At the end of the day, Turkish women’s rights activist Pınar İlkkaracan said that the important thing is not whether Turkey is high or low in the global rankings. “What is important is that Turkey is not doing its duty to protect women,” she said.
This table is a cross-section of the UN Women’s extensive database that accompanied its 2011-12 flagship report. The original database includes data for more than 175 countries.
This sample contains countries from all categories listed in the UN Women’s report -- Sub-Saharan Africa, Europe, Developed Regions, South Asia, Middle East and North Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean, East Asia and the Pacific, Central and Eastern Europe and Central Asia. Only one country -- Egypt -- in the Middle East was included, because the UN Women’s report did not contain comprehensive findings for most of the countries in the region.



Devrim

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Because things become much clearer when you use terms that hardly anybody understands.
Still, you could have said "non-trans women," because your language usage can be read as implying that trans women aren't women, even if that wasn't your intent.


In Turkey post operation transsexuals are assigned with a card, blue for boys, pink for girls, which matches their chosen sex. That is it.
Does Turkey re-issue birth certificates, government-issued identification, passports, etc., with the gender amended? And how does Turkey deal with those who are pre-op or non-op?

[Devrim]

Does Turkey re-issue birth certificates, government-issued identification, passports, etc., with the gender amended?

My mistake, I meant to write identity card. This is the primary document from which passports etc are obtained.


And how does Turkey deal with those who are pre-op or non-op?

It doesn't.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Still, you could have said "non-trans women," because your language usage can be read as implying that trans women aren't women, even if that wasn't your intent.

I suppose if you want to read it that way it could.

Devrim

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

My mistake, I meant to write identity card. This is the primary document from which passports etc are obtained.
Thank you for the clarification.


It doesn't.
I see. In Washington State, where I live, government-issued identification can be amended for pre-op and non-op trans people as long as they have a letter from a psychologist or physician certifying that they have been diagnosed with gender identity disorder and are being treated for it.

If they did that in Turkey, that would be one way to tell cis men from trans women in female-oriented facilities.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I suppose if you want to read it that way it could.
If I read it that way, you would know.