Prisons and justice in Anarchism and Communism

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

I'm wondering how we will fit in justice and prisons in Anarchy, Communism and especially Anarcho-Communism.

I've read on some ideas on punishments in Anarchism, but those involve money-punishments, witholding food, electricity etc. or incarceration.

Now, i'm more with the Anarcho-Communism, so money would be abolished, and i'm against withholding lifes necessities, so that leaves imprisonment.

The thing is that prisons don't serve the common good and often give inmates a kick in the head instead of a push in the right way.

So where does that leave us?
What other theories are there?
For example a special way of community service?

[Tim Cornelis]

Some links:

http://www.modernghana.com/news/395591/1/an-anarchist-theory-of-criminal-justice.html

http://www.newformulation.org/4Amster.htm

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

I know that my reply comes pretty late, but i haven't finished reading yet.
(Two causes, 1: haven't had the time, 2: i read incredibly slow)

So a proper comment will follow...

[#FF0000]

Welp, seeing as prisons are straight up failures at their intended purpose (to stop crime, yeah?), I'd say it's safe to assume they'd be done away with.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Welp, seeing as prisons are straight up failures at their intended purpose (to stop crime, yeah?), I'd say it's safe to assume they'd be done away with.

That seems pretty logical, but my question really was: what do we replace it with?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Prisons should be burned down or torn down. Prison abolition has been a cornerstone of anarchist thought for a while. From an anarchist perspective, is there anything more symbolic of the horrors of state control than a prison? We can see this principle when anarchists have gotten some small amounts of political control over certain areas of Spain and the Ukraine. (Although those anarchists tended to be pretty big fans of impromptu capital punishment). The sudden release of prisoners into society would probably create some chaos, but socio-political revolutions are always chaotic...

There'd probably have to be some kind of system of imprisonment/confinement/house arrest etc. for the "criminally insane", but I imagine this would be very limited and of a different nature than the "universities of crime" that exist today. I would hope it would, anyway.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Prisons should be burned down or torn down. Prison abolition has been a cornerstone of anarchist thought for a while. From an anarchist perspective, is there anything more symbolic of the horrors of state control than a prison? We can see this principle when anarchists have gotten some small amounts of political control over certain areas of Spain and the Ukraine. (Although those anarchists tended to be pretty big fans of impromptu capital punishment). The sudden release of prisoners into society would probably create some chaos, but socio-political revolutions are always chaotic...

There'd probably have to be some kind of system of imprisonment/confinement/house arrest etc. for the "criminally insane", but I imagine this would be very limited and of a different nature than the "universities of crime" that exist today. I would hope it would, anyway.

And so rapists walk free?
Thieves steal the tv i like to use and i just suck it up or something??

[Os Cangaceiros]

Incarceration doesn't seem to me to be a very effective or lasting solution to either of those social problems (ie rape and theft).

[helot]

Within a anarchist/communist society the economic factors leading to crime would cease to exist the remaining crime will be far more deep-seated.

Prisons have always been universities of crime (i love that phrase btw). One of the fundamental problems with prisons is that it completely separates someone who has engaged in anti-social behaviour (in a general sense) from society. Separating a social being from society because of what they've done helps foster such anti-social behaviour. I don't have all the answers or anything but i think rehabilitation and extensive supervision while the criminal remains part of the community is the best method to reduce detrimental effects on the criminal, on the community and also reduce the possibility of re-offending.


edit:


Thieves steal the tv i like to use and i just suck it up or something??

Btw, why would someone steal your TV if they can just go get one? The only possible reason would be because there's a quarrel between you two and they're trying to fuck with you. In that case the community trying to produce reconciliation between you two is the best option.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

i think that there will still be cases in which certain individuals would need to be isolated from society for the safety of society itself, but they should be treated as humanely as possible, which is one thing that the prison system certainly doesn't do. if you think about it though, if we were to revolutionalize the means of production and construct a better system, the amount of people going to prison would decrease dramatically. my mum was recently sent to prison for council tax - she's in a maximum security, privately owned prison and told me that the amount of people in there for debt and other such trivial things is astounding. i'll expand on this later as i've been thinking a lot about the legal and prison systems. the first step towards thinking about alternatives is realizing how instrumental these systems are in capitalist society and then we can understand the real context of prison and law, which is far more about socio-economic oppression than it is about 'justice' and keeping the community safe. sending an unemployed woman to prison for council tax should be a fucking crime in itself

[helot]

my mum was recently sent to prison for council tax - she's in a maximum security, privately owned prison and told me that the amount of people in there for debt and other such trivial things is astounding.

That's fucking terrible!

[Blake's Baby]

And so rapists walk free?

That's not what Os Cangaceiros said. How did you read 'some kind of system of imprisonment/confinement/house arrest etc.' as 'walk free'?

Locking people up in prison doesn't help the victim; it doesn't help society as a whole; it doesn't help the perpetraitor. Why would it be a good idea? the only positive aspect of imprisonment that might occur is if the perpitrator is a danger to other people and might do whatever anti-social action again. Even if that is the case I'd suggest that working to try to repair the damage caused is better than removing someone from society. Can't see how people learn to be more socialised and co-operative, learn about solidarity and respect for other people, by removing them from society.

By the way, I do think this is one situation in which society might be morally justified in compelling certain behaviour. Prison is shit but I'm quite up for the idea of restitutive justice. I wreck something, I have to work to repair it, or do some other thing that society considers goes towards the general social good. I'm not entirely happy with this notion but then again I'm not entirely happy with the notion that there will be 'crime' after the revolution.



Thieves steal the tv i like to use and i just suck it up or something??

You've got your TV from the community store (as in 'warehouse', place where things are stored, not as in 'shop', place where things are bought and sold). It works a bit like a library. You have the TV 'on loan' until you take it back because you need a different one.

But, shock horror, some oiks, instead of just getting a TV themselves from the store, break into you house and 'steal' yours (why? Doesn't matter. Original Sin maybe). So, next morning, you go to the store and say 'weirdest thing, someone broke into my house last night and stole the TV.'

'Weird,' the person at the store agrees. 'Never mind, take another one'.

'OK,' you say, and go and chose a new TV.

Problem?

[Regicollis]

I'm not an anarchist but here is my thoughts on crime and punishment in a free society. Since I don't believe scarcity will ever be abolished - especially when it comes to luxury goods - I think there would still be theft, fraud, embezzlement etc. in a free society. There will also still be jealousy, unmanaged anger, drunk people and a lot of other crime-provoking factors. A free society will have to address the problem of crime.

In the case of the criminally insane, psychopaths, pedophiles and the like, there will need to be some sort of incarceration. It should not happen in a prison as it does now. Instead I envision it to take place in some sort of hospital setting where the inmates are given the best possible treatment for their disorders. These closed hospitals should emulate the outside world as close as possible, they should be governed and organised democratically so the inmates are prepared to be citizens of a free society when they are released. Furthermore these institutions should try to have as much contact with the outside world as possible, for instance by letting inmates and ordinary citizens work together.

For lesser crimes the same principle of treatment should be followed. If someone is found guilty of drunk driving he should receive treatment for a possible alcohol abuse and be educated about the danger he puts other people in. Maybe he should also loose his license for a while until trust is restored that he can drive responsibly again. As a supplement to treatment restorative justice should be used so those found guilty of a crime would have to work towards repairing the damage they have done. If you have broken someone's windows for instance you should put the new ones in.

The principle of restorative justice could also be used on violent crime by encouraging criminals to take part in reconciliation efforts towards the victim. When the victim and the perpetrator wants to meet to reconcile it helps both parties. The victim sees that the perpetrator is not some monster and the perpetrator sees that he has actually done damage to someone.

So in my view the principles for criminal justice in a free society should be treatment, education, restoration and reconciliation.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I firmly believe the prison systems as we think of them should be completely abolished and am a member and have worked with the ABCF on this.

I will elaborate more later when I have the time.

[thriller]

Many anarchists I have talked to believe expulsion from society is best suited for punishment. Exile to be exact. I agree with this is some cases, expect when the problem is psychological. For example, a person may kill or harm someone, but it may due to a mental illness or paranoia from previous life experiences that made them feel threatened in a certain situation. In this case, mental help from doctors and nurses and the community as a whole should be utilized, because exile may add to that persons issues, and cause them to commit the same acts in another group. I feel punishment for "crime" will be decided on a severe case-to-case basis rather than murder = 25 to life/death and what not. And no, at least in the US Justice system, it is not decided that way, because if it was, we wouldn't hold more than 50% of the world's prisoners.

[Philosophos]

Well if you commit a crime there must be a reason (psychological mostly if not always) . You can't just wake up one day and start saying: "Yeah I want to kill somebody" unless you have some kind of problem that needs medical treatment or it can't be cured etc etc.

If you want to actually change people and convince them that what they did is wrong and they shouldn't do it again (stealing, raping, killing) you should send them to a therapist and arrange sessions depending on how important or trivial the crime is.

Until the therapist decides if the person is ready to be sent again in the society there must be some kind of facility to keep the people that committed crimes. I'm not talking about cells 2x2 or 1 hour in the yard and no talking to other prisoners until the repa. I'm talking of a more friendly facility that will help keeping in touch with other people that will give them time to think about what they did (with the help of the therapist ofcourse).

Correct me if you think you have something that is better than my preposition.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Prisons have always been universities of crime (i love that phrase btw). One of the fundamental problems with prisons is that it completely separates someone who has engaged in anti-social behaviour (in a general sense) from society. Separating a social being from society because of what they've done helps foster such anti-social behaviour. I don't have all the answers or anything but i think rehabilitation and extensive supervision while the criminal remains part of the community is the best method to reduce detrimental effects on the criminal, on the community and also reduce the possibility of re-offending.


edit:


Btw, why would someone steal your TV if they can just go get one? The only possible reason would be because there's a quarrel between you two and they're trying to fuck with you. In that case the community trying to produce reconciliation between you two is the best option.


i think that there will still be cases in which certain individuals would need to be isolated from society for the safety of society itself, but they should be treated as humanely as possible, which is one thing that the prison system certainly doesn't do. if you think about it though, if we were to revolutionalize the means of production and construct a better system, the amount of people going to prison would decrease dramatically. my mum was recently sent to prison for council tax - she's in a maximum security, privately owned prison and told me that the amount of people in there for debt and other such trivial things is astounding. i'll expand on this later as i've been thinking a lot about the legal and prison systems. the first step towards thinking about alternatives is realizing how instrumental these systems are in capitalist society and then we can understand the real context of prison and law, which is far more about socio-economic oppression than it is about 'justice' and keeping the community safe. sending an unemployed woman to prison for council tax should be a fucking crime in itself


That's not what Os Cangaceiros said. How did you read 'some kind of system of imprisonment/confinement/house arrest etc.' as 'walk free'?

Locking people up in prison doesn't help the victim; it doesn't help society as a whole; it doesn't help the perpetraitor. Why would it be a good idea? the only positive aspect of imprisonment that might occur is if the perpitrator is a danger to other people and might do whatever anti-social action again. Even if that is the case I'd suggest that working to try to repair the damage caused is better than removing someone from society. Can't see how people learn to be more socialised and co-operative, learn about solidarity and respect for other people, by removing them from society.

By the way, I do think this is one situation in which society might be morally justified in compelling certain behaviour. Prison is shit but I'm quite up for the idea of restitutive justice. I wreck something, I have to work to repair it, or do some other thing that society considers goes towards the general social good. I'm not entirely happy with this notion but then again I'm not entirely happy with the notion that there will be 'crime' after the revolution.


Who made up i was pro-prisons??
What i said was:


The thing is that prisons don't serve the common good and often give inmates a kick in the head instead of a push in the right way.


Now there were some good replies about what Anar-comm law will look like, instead of what not.
The incarceration of the criminally insane (aparently rapists and paedophiles are already viewed by some as insane; fine with me btw) is ok with me.
And i'm totally with the idea of teating perpetrators within the our society.

I was just wondering what you all thought of the subject.
Hence i did not give my own opinion yet...




You've got your TV from the community store (as in 'warehouse', place where things are stored, not as in 'shop', place where things are bought and sold). It works a bit like a library. You have the TV 'on loan' until you take it back because you need a different one.

But, shock horror, some oiks, instead of just getting a TV themselves from the store, break into you house and 'steal' yours (why? Doesn't matter. Original Sin maybe). So, next morning, you go to the store and say 'weirdest thing, someone broke into my house last night and stole the TV.'

'Weird,' the person at the store agrees. 'Never mind, take another one'.

'OK,' you say, and go and chose a new TV.

Problem?

Lol, i new the tv thing would come back and bite me in the ass.
I distinctly said THE tv and not MY tv, but still...i admit it was a weak argument.
It was just that everyone was saying what they thought wrong, not what they thought right.

[#FF0000]

That seems pretty logical, but my question really was: what do we replace it with?

Exploring "restorative justice" would be a good idea, I think.

And hey, maybe "prisons" will still exist but in the seemingly ultra-lax Scandinavian form, with its focus on separation and rehabilitation as opposed to retribution? The main drive of my anti-prison sentiment, though, is that aside from prisons being abject failures at what they are supposed to do, I don't expect a society that is free of oppressive structures to need prisons.

[l'Enfermé]

"Locking people up in prison doesn't help the victim"

Sure it does. Justice is far more important than "rehabilitation".

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Still i beg to differ.
Isn't it more important to make sure a perpetrator doesn't commit another crime (and another, and another...)?

[#FF0000]

Sure it does. Justice is far more important than "rehabilitation".

Talking about "Justice" as if it's a clearly defined thing, here. What you're talking about is retribution. Prisons, especially as they exist today in a lot of places and especially the US, do no good. Putting someone in jail doesn't heal anything, doesn't help either victim nor perpetrator.


Isn't it more important to make sure a perpetrator doesn't commit another crime (and another, and another...)?

But prisons don't do that. The prisons with the lowest recidivism rates in the world are the prisons that are the most lax. That is, the prisons that are least like prisons.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

But prisons don't do that. The prisons with the lowest recidivism rates in the world are the prisons that are the most lax. That is, the prisons that are least like prisons.

I totally agree.
Prisons tend to fuck people up, not rehabilitate them.