Socialism and queues

[Strannik]

When people think of USSR they usually laugh about the queues. But despite the particular primitive version in USSR, isn't queue actually the key factor for socialist economic management?

I imagined a model where we have one great Inventory of all the resources and means of production. In addition to that, the rules are:

- Each producing actor can freely offer any product or service.
- Each consuming actor can freely choose any offered product or service.
- Both actor types can sort their queue of orders according to personal preferences (want something more, push it up. Consider someone's order to you less important, push it down).
- Everyone who has accepted an order gets from inventory what they need to fulfill it (including resources and time they asked with means of production).
- Every actor's order history is recorded and visible to other actors.

Now, it seems to me that such a model contains all the necessary information for managing complex economy without any money or labour vouchers. Or am I forgetting something?

[Die Neue Zeit]

It's a key factor in capitalist economic management already, called the purchase order. That's why Just-In-Time Production was conceptualized and introduced practically.

[Strannik]

Yes, that's basic ERP software by now. So why are the debates about "economic calculation problem" still ongoing, and even among socialists?

[sanpal]

　
　
Proletarian state (DOTP) organized scientifically i.e. which is having two sectors of economy (market sector with monetary economy and non-market/communist sector of economy with labour certificates/vouchers) solves the problem with queues easyly.

[ZvP]

　
　
Proletarian state (DOTP) organized scientifically i.e. which is having two sectors of economy (market sector with monetary economy and non-market/communist sector of economy with labour certificates/vouchers) solves the problem with queues easyly.


How would that even work?

[MarxSchmarx]

Yes, that's basic ERP software by now. So why are the debates about "economic calculation problem" still ongoing, and even among socialists?

Consider this - the calculation problem, as originally posed, was meant to assess how well an alternative to the price mechanism can work.

What is telling to me is that even with arguably the greatest computational firepower known to man, the capitalists are still unable to accurately predict price movement, or, at least, able to do so enough enough in advance to generate a profit, which is what they all want.

I've long meant to seriously study how accelerated information flow manages to cause, and not always ease, frictions and faults within the capitalist system. Capitalist economics assumes perfect information, but this is clearly not the case, and it is interesting to see capitalism's own constraints on having omnipotent market playes.

But another facet of this is whether centralized planning is desirable from a political, if not strictly economic, perspective. For instance, who maintains the source code? Who guards the super computer facility that determines how many teddy bears are available for the kindergartners in Alaska? Who "presses enter"? The traditional explanation is that there will be a "facilitator class", but how are these people checked? Wouldn't sooner a later a tyrant emerge?

There will have to be socialized production, but to me a much more impressive solution to the political problems of centralization are a new model of resource allocation that will have to emerge, a model that is highly modular, decentralized, and prone to experimentation and tinkering at a very local, democratic level. In essence, it is a Linux economy versus a Windows or Apple economy. We havent figured this out yet, but these are some reasons why I remain skeptical of central planning, and why the calcualtion problem doesn't strike me as being fully settled. Let a thousand flowers bloom indeed.

[sanpal]

How would that even work?

The answer could be complex because of many aspects it pulls: system of planning of production and distribution in communist sector, possible temporary shortage of products or resources, levels -local or central, etc. (State)capitalist sector in Proletarian socialism (market economy) has its bunch of questions to solve (taxation, socialization, grants to poor layers of population and unemployeds, etc.) .

If to say in a few words, queues in communist sector are eliminated by means of an exchange with market sector (for money).

[Strannik]

I was already thinking that no one will answer this post :)

I'm not speaking about physical queues but how we sort labour tasks for operating with limited resources. These queues are inevitable in any society that has limited resources and limited production capacity. The question is how do we prioritize these queues.


But another facet of this is whether centralized planning is desirable from a political, if not strictly economic, perspective. For instance, who maintains the source code? Who guards the super computer facility that determines how many teddy bears are available for the kindergartners in Alaska? Who "presses enter"? The traditional explanation is that there will be a "facilitator class", but how are these people checked? Wouldn't sooner a later a tyrant emerge?

There will have to be socialized production, but to me a much more impressive solution to the political problems of centralization are a new model of resource allocation that will have to emerge, a model that is highly modular, decentralized, and prone to experimentation and tinkering at a very local, democratic level. In essence, it is a Linux economy versus a Windows or Apple economy. We havent figured this out yet, but these are some reasons why I remain skeptical of central planning, and why the calcualtion problem doesn't strike me as being fully settled. Let a thousand flowers bloom indeed.

I myself am a supporter of "general social planning" - "sorting algorithm" for tasks of socialist society should be based on common centralized database, but it should take into account individual preferences as well as social policies. So we could utilize a policy of general green production for example, while producing products that are actually demanded by individuals.

Obviously there's no problem if individuals keep parallel systems running or utilize local systems, or prioritize their own personal tasks differently. This helps to check the central information system as well. But common or social level is also necessary to synchronize and compare all this information - otherwise we'll run into accumulation problem again.

My criticism to economic calculation problem was this - it is basically saying that no system can be managed without feedback (true) and that there is no other concievable social feedback system except market price. And I can't believe that in this age it is still considered an argument. Individually and socially ordered and prioritized tasks contain all the information market contains and more. This is the argument I wanted to make.

[Czcibor]

I imagined a model where we have one great Inventory of all the resources and means of production. In addition to that, the rules are:

- Each producing actor can freely offer any product or service.
- Each consuming actor can freely choose any offered product or service.
- Both actor types can sort their queue of orders according to personal preferences (want something more, push it up. Consider someone's order to you less important, push it down).
- Everyone who has accepted an order gets from inventory what they need to fulfill it (including resources and time they asked with means of production).
- Every actor's order history is recorded and visible to other actors.

Now, it seems to me that such a model contains all the necessary information for managing complex economy without any money or labour vouchers. Or am I forgetting something?
Unless that are not simplifying assumption:
-time lag (I want an egg. Now. That means that the chicken must have been laying it for quite a while; yes, realistically you can roughly estimate that what would I want to eat in future)
-priorities between different queues (Would your order be processed before mine? You would need some kind of mechanism that would forbade me from making some kind of long list of expected by me gifts for winter solstice? ;) Presumably here you would need something like money or ration stamps)

[Strannik]

Unless that are not simplifying assumption:
-time lag (I want an egg. Now. That means that the chicken must have been laying it for quite a while; yes, realistically you can roughly estimate that what would I want to eat in future)
-priorities between different queues (Would your order be processed before mine? You would need some kind of mechanism that would forbade me from making some kind of long list of expected by me gifts for winter solstice? ;) Presumably here you would need something like money or ration stamps)

1) About time lag - I believe socially planned economy should not take a commodity-based view, but rather service-based. It's not that I need an egg - I need a well-cared chicken somewhere that is tasked with laying eggs for me.

2) Whether someone's order is considered before others, depends of particular producer as well as particular social policy. For example social policy might be that basic life sustaining needs should be satisfied before luxury needs. Also, as an individual producer I should probably serve you before others if I see in the common inventory that you perform a rare service to others or that you are someone who fulfills a lot of orders yourself. (And today I don't have to do this by hand - I can have computers sort my task list according to such parameters automatically).

I don't need anything that prevents you from making a long list of orders. A long list of orders is a good thing. It means you have planned your consumption ahead. People who do that should be served before others as a general social policy. But if this list is all you do, you have to understand that I serve before you those who actually contribute to society. If after that there are still some resources left and I feel like working, why not - you can have your gifts. But not before that.

So I still don't see the need for money or ration stamps.