Cuba=socialism??? [Archive]

el_profe

24th December 2003, 05:47

I also found this on one of the link in that page:
Another FAQ:

"Why did Communism fail in the USSR?

First of all, it is important to note that the USSR never reached the communist stage described by Marx and Engels. They began as a healthy Worker’s State, but then as a result of civil war, famine, imperialist invasion, and other hardships, bureaucratization and the destruction of Soviet democracy occurred. Through war many class conscious and valuable workers were killed. This resulted in a Stalinist dictatorship. Stalin and his bureaucrats craved power, and were determined to hold onto it by any means. The bureaucracy was a parasite upon the body of the working class, though not another class. By 1924 the Soviet Union had become a degenerated Worker’s State with a state-capitalist economy. This began the long counter-revolution which eventually culminated in the destruction of the USSR in the late 1980's.

Why are so many people trying to leave Cuba?

The main reason is because they are suffering due to our 40 year blockade and cutoff of trade. In addition, the conditions are not exceptionally good in Cuba Fidel Castro is a dictator leading a Stalinist bureaucracy. It is important to distinguish however, that Cuba does have decent edges over other nations, including the best health care system in the world. Housing is moderate and provided to all people, and few go hungry. In addition, the Cuban people adore their revolution and the leader before Castro was a US backed dictator named Batista who murdered many and essentially ran Cuba as a puppet state of US Imperialism, an island of casinos and whore houses. Perhaps one day true Communism will come to Cuba. "

So this communist faq also says Castro and Stalin is/was a dictator.
I just put this for the Stalin and the Castro lovers. Who see these dictators as gods.

Jimmie Higgins

24th December 2003, 06:07

I would say that cuba is a left-wing nationalist country where the state controlls the means of production... it is not as bad as China (which is the US's tradeing buddy - so much in common, big country, lots of natural resources to strip the land of, losts of laborers to exploit, and lots of prisoners), but it's not too great either.

I would want to defend the Cuban's right not to be invaded by the US and have the us set up a new regime - ala Iraq, but I don't defend Castros right to control the cuban people's destanies.

Now, to support my claims about Cuba, here's some history: There was a national liberation movment in Cuba which claimed not to be communist and the US supported the ruling regime. When it became clear that the liberation movement would win, the US supported this nationalist, non-communist gurella movement. Castro came to power and the US supports him. Castro nationalizes some industry controlled by US companies and kickes the mafia out. The US tries to invade with a proxy army but fails. The US then sets up a trade embargo against the non-communist country. Being an island which since colonia times was used to grow cash crops to sell to industrial nations (Spain, later the US), Cuba needs someone to trade with, since the US is out, then the USSR is the alternative. The USSR could use Cuba's stratigic position in it's competition with the US and so these countries begin trade. Then Castro makes a speech and says he's a Marxist-lenninist (stalinist) until the day he dies and always has been one. To me it seems like clear cut cold-war politics.

As a general rule I think that gurella movements are good at fighting against imperial powers, but not good at all at allowing socialism. Guerrilla movents ultimately can not stay secure and hidden and rally the industrial working class at the same time and since socialism requires that the workers take over the work places and production, a movent cut-off and separate of these social forces can not enable this to happen. So what ends up happening is that the gurella military force takes over a country and the governmet and then takes over industry, this only transfers power from business to the new government and not the workers themselves.

el_profe

24th December 2003, 06:26

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 07:07 AM

Now, to support my claims about Cuba, here's some history: There was a national liberation movment in Cuba which claimed not to be communist and the US supported the ruling regime. When it became clear that the liberation movement would win, the US supported this nationalist, non-communist gurella movement. Castro came to power and the US supports him. Castro nationalizes some industry controlled by US companies and kickes the mafia out. The US tries to invade with a proxy army but fails. The US then sets up a trade embargo against the non-communist country. Being an island which since colonia times was used to grow cash crops to sell to industrial nations (Spain, later the US), Cuba needs someone to trade with, since the US is out, then the USSR is the alternative. The USSR could use Cuba's stratigic position in it's competition with the US and so these countries begin trade. Then Castro makes a speech and says he's a Marxist-lenninist (stalinist) until the day he dies and always has been one. To me it seems like clear cut cold-war politics.

As a general rule I think that gurella movements are good at fighting against imperial powers, but not good at all at allowing socialism. Guerrilla movents ultimately can not stay secure and hidden and rally the industrial working class at the same time and since socialism requires that the workers take over the work places and production, a movent cut-off and separate of these social forces can not enable this to happen. So what ends up happening is that the gurella military force takes over a country and the governmet and then takes over industry, this only transfers power from business to the new government and not the workers themselves.
Castro was forced to go to the USSR for trading help.
But he was still helped by guevara who would not of helped him if he did not have communist ideas.

Many say the USA should lift its embargo because thanks to its trade restrictions cuba can not do better. but like you said:"it is not as bad as China (which is the US's tradeing buddy - so much in common, big country, lots of natural resources to strip the land of, losts of laborers to exploit, and lots of prisoners), but it's not too great either."

What makes anyone think that this would not happen in Cuba if the USA starts trading with cuba.China's people have not seen the benefit of that trading.

cormacobear

24th December 2003, 06:39

China is the fastest growing economy in the world the standard of living while low improves every year as well asconsistent rise in literacy. So I would say they are seeing the benefit of nationalized trade with world markets. If the embargo were lifted I know many Canadian businesses would happily negotiate trade with the Cuban peoples gov. Which would likely be more democratic if the embargo were removed, due to rising standards of living and the enevitable change in leadership in the next decade or so were it to happen at about the same time.

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr

24th December 2003, 12:17

IDK if that will apply to Cuba though, after all, the standards of living in Cuba are much higher then China (or most other places for that matter). No Cuban people are homeless or starving, and the vast majority can read, and also they have an extremely low infant mortality rate, none of which China can boast. I say Cuba is one of the finest socialist nations to ever exist.

Deniz Gezmis

24th December 2003, 13:53

Maynard

24th December 2003, 14:00

Totalitarianism is any political system in which a citizen is totally subject to state authority in all aspects of day-to-day life. That does not describe Cuba at all. I don't care how much you despise Castro or Communism, to say this is the case in Cuba is being intellectually dishonest. You could say "authoritarian" though I would disagree.

I think el_profe, you may have thought the left agrees on pretty much everything, the reality however, is much different . There are many factions within the left , just as there are on the right.

As for Cuba it's hard to argue that it's a fully "socialist" nation as Cuba has been forced into many capitalist decisions to deal with liquidity issues or shortages of food. I do not know the right term to describe it but "Stalinist bureaucracy" is ludicrous. Castro is not Stalin , he is not replicating Stalin's actions. I think that statement is just pandering to those who are not communists, to say "Those other guys are evil and not real socialists". So, the term "Stalinist" was phrased and has been used everywhere. I heard a right wing person describe the US media as "Stalinist".

Why are so many people trying to leave Cuba?

This is a question often brought up by those on the right but it's only used for countries such as Cuba but not asked of countries in Eastern Europe or the Philippines all of which have the same if not higher rates of emigration.
The fact remains though that Cuba standard of living has risen quite highly as compared to before the revolution and compared to other nations where it is reasonable to compare.
If Cuba is such a horrible place one wonders why it's Human Development Index remains higher than similar countries who embraced Neo Liberalism instead such as Mexico, Brazil , Romania, Thailand , Russia, Turkey , Peru , Thailand Malaysia or Panama.
No one is arguing that Cuba is a paradise on earth or that there are not serious problems to be faced. It's just not the hellhole that the right makes it out to be. I do not agree with a lot of things Castro has done but I do believe he has a good effect overall on Cuba.

Who see these dictators as gods
Any "communist" who sees anyone else as a "god" or not able to make a mistake, should not be a communist at all. Communism is not about hero worship.

Castro didn't turn to "socialism" because of the embargo. Che's speech to the First Latin American Youth Congress in 1960 , 2 years before the embargo states as much , where he says the Cuban revolution is Marxist in nature. The Cuban Revolution did not have any ideology in mind, Che says till Batista's last offsensive when after discovering a pamphlet from Mao Tse- Tung and the similarities that were noticed between the two campaigns.

But he was still helped by guevara who would not of helped him if he did not have communist ideas.

That's not true, Che had in my mind more passion for anti imperialism then actual Marxist beliefs. Fidel was a nationalist when Che met him, Marxism was not pre determined when it began but came about due to the experience of waging the revolution.

What makes anyone think that this would not happen in Cuba if the USA starts trading with cuba.China's people have not seen the benefit of that trading
The lifting of the embargo would allow trade between goods, not allow companies to come in for cheap labour or rape natural resources.
China is a fast growing economy , no doubt but actual average GDP growth in Cuba over the past ten years is 4.2 %, which is higher than Australia 3.5 %, United States 3.4 %, The United Kingdom 2.7 %.
While Russia's GDP level has dropped on average 3.7 % a year ! Since the USSR dissolved. Romania is -0.4 %, Georgia -5.6 %.

So, even with the USSR collapsing the Cuban economy is growing faster than that of the United States or just about any other neo liberal country.

http://www.worldbank.org/data/wdi2003/tabl...es/table4-1.pdf (http://www.worldbank.org/data/wdi2003/tables/table4-1.pdf)

Cuba is doing okay, no matter how much those on the right wish that it wasn't.

Misodoctakleidist

24th December 2003, 14:05

el_profe, it'd good to see that you've finaly accepted that the USSR wasn't communsit, maybe you could explain this to your capitalist friends, they seem to have difficulty comprehending it.

Pete

24th December 2003, 14:54

I would like to remind you, El Profe, that more people are fleeing capitalist regimes than are fleeing Cuba, and Cuba is on of the more populous Latin American nations. Also, Cuba would allow the people to leave legally, but America refuses the visas.

Hoppe

24th December 2003, 15:12

The lifting of the embargo would allow trade between goods, not allow companies to come in for cheap labour or rape natural resources.
China is a fast growing economy , no doubt but actual average GDP growth in Cuba over the past ten years is 4.2 %, which is higher than Australia 3.5 %, United States 3.4 %, The United Kingdom 2.7 %.
While Russia's GDP level has dropped on average 3.7 % a year ! Since the USSR dissolved. Romania is -0.4 %, Georgia -5.6 %.

So, even with the USSR collapsing the Cuban economy is growing faster than that of the United States or just about any other neo liberal country.

A little remark on this. This is a bit fallacious, since the western economies are much more developed so of course their growth rate is less, fortunately. Nice list by the way, I have looked at it briefly and it seems that a lot of poor countries are closing in because their growth rates are higher than that of the US. Could this mean that the rich get richer and the poor as well?

el_profe, it'd good to see that you've finaly accepted that the USSR wasn't communsit, maybe you could explain this to your capitalist friends, they seem to have difficulty comprehending it.

It may not have been communist according to the pictures in your book yet no one has ever done a decent job in explaining how one is going to make sure we won't end up in another USSR-type of horrorstate if we travel the path of communism.

I would like to remind you, El Profe, that more people are fleeing capitalist regimes than are fleeing Cuba, and Cuba is on of the more populous Latin American nations.

Stupid retoric. According to you every other country is capitalist so yes, more people are fleeing capitalist countries.

Pete

24th December 2003, 16:46

Stupid retoric. According to you every other country is capitalist so yes, more people are fleeing capitalist countries.

I worded my post wrong, I meant to say: More people are running from almost any other individual latin american country than Cuba. Mess up in my diction, I am not combining the people fleeing, but each nation individually. (Of course some L.American countries may have less because of the population difference).

el_profe

24th December 2003, 17:00

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 03:00 PM
Totalitarianism is any political system in which a citizen is totally subject to state authority in all aspects of day-to-day life. That does not describe Cuba at all. I don't care how much you despise Castro or Communism, to say this is the case in Cuba is being intellectually dishonest. You could say "authoritarian" though I would disagree.

I think el_profe, you may have thought the left agrees on pretty much everything, the reality however, is much different . There are many factions within the left , just as there are on the right.
Well it would be nice to see everyone have a common ground. YOu have communist here who dont like stalin because he has given communism "a bad" name.
But then you have the one's that would take a bullet for stalin.

As for Cuba it's hard to argue that it's a fully "socialist" nation as Cuba has been forced into many capitalist decisions to deal with liquidity issues or shortages of food. I do not know the right term to describe it but "Stalinist bureaucracy" is ludicrous. Castro is not Stalin , he is not replicating Stalin's actions. I think that statement is just pandering to those who are not communists, to say "Those other guys are evil and not real socialists". So, the term "Stalinist" was phrased and has been used everywhere. I heard a right wing person describe the US media as "Stalinist".
ALL THE INFO I GOT IS FROM communism.org and their communism links.

Why are so many people trying to leave Cuba?

This is a question often brought up by those on the right but it's only used for countries such as Cuba but not asked of countries in Eastern Europe or the Philippines all of which have the same if not higher rates of emigration.
The fact remains though that Cuba standard of living has risen quite highly as compared to before the revolution and compared to other nations where it is reasonable to compare.
If Cuba is such a horrible place one wonders why it's Human Development Index remains higher than similar countries who embraced Neo Liberalism instead such as Mexico, Brazil , Romania, Thailand , Russia, Turkey , Peru , Thailand Malaysia or Panama.
No one is arguing that Cuba is a paradise on earth or that there are not serious problems to be faced. It's just not the hellhole that the right makes it out to be. I do not agree with a lot of things Castro has done but I do believe he has a good effect overall on Cuba.
Yes. MY BAD FOR NOT ASKING A BETTER QuESTION.
WHY ARE people not allowed to leave CUBA? for example, if livan hernandez wanted to leave cuba to play baseball in the dominican republic he would of not been allowed by his own country.

Who see these dictators as gods
Any "communist" who sees anyone else as a "god" or not able to make a mistake, should not be a communist at all. Communism is not about hero worship.
Well then their is alot of people in these forums who should not call themselves communist. Maybe stalinist would better describe them. ANyone who denies the facts that stalin murdered millions is just insane and does not want to admit these fact because they idolize stalin so much.

The lifting of the embargo would allow trade between goods, not allow companies to come in for cheap labour or rape natural resources.
China is a fast growing economy , no doubt but actual average GDP growth in Cuba over the past ten years is 4.2 %, which is higher than Australia 3.5 %, United States 3.4 %, The United Kingdom 2.7 %.
While Russia's GDP level has dropped on average 3.7 % a year ! Since the USSR dissolved. Romania is -0.4 %, Georgia -5.6 %.

You know what all those eastern european, they where all communist under USSR control, even if they where not part of the USSR, the USSR still put those communist gov. in those countries and supported them. LIKE happened in Hungary.
CHINA IS GROWING. But they are also implimenting more free-market ideas into their economical policies. So their growth has nothing to do with socialism.
MY POINT ABOUT CHINA WAS< their people dont seem to be seeing the beneficts of that growth.

Cuba is doing okay, no matter how much those on the right wish that it wasn't.
IM not so sure about that. Again, why do so many people levae, its the same in latin america, the countries are doing bad so the people want to leave and are able to leave.

el_profe

24th December 2003, 17:06

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 04:12 PM

el_profe, it'd good to see that you've finaly accepted that the USSR wasn't communsit, maybe you could explain this to your capitalist friends, they seem to have difficulty comprehending it.

It may not have been communist according to the pictures in your book yet no one has ever done a decent job in explaining how one is going to make sure we won't end up in another USSR-type of horrorstate if we travel the path of communism.

Good point. I asqued that question one time and it was never answered.

I would like to remind you, El Profe, that more people are fleeing capitalist regimes than are fleeing Cuba, and Cuba is on of the more populous Latin American nations.

Stupid retoric. According to you every other country is capitalist so yes, more people are fleeing capitalist countries.
they still dont believe latin america is not capitalist, I wrote a huge post about this in a post call something through socialism. I forgot the first part of the name.
Anyway no one was able to respond to my post where i showed them why latin america is not capitalist.

Le LibÃ©rer

24th December 2003, 17:22

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 03:54 PM
I would like to remind you, El Profe, that more people are fleeing capitalist regimes than are fleeing Cuba, and Cuba is on of the more populous Latin American nations. Also, Cuba would allow the people to leave legally, but America refuses the visas.
I didnt know that!! Do you have any references to that statement?? I would LOVE to throw that one on some Cappies I know!!!

Deniz Gezmis

24th December 2003, 17:22

Will you stop asking the same fucking questions over agian?
Please come back to the 'cubas economic problems' thread please. :lol:

el_profe

25th December 2003, 07:44

el_profe

25th December 2003, 08:18

I dont know why I am even replying to many of these answers.

DOES EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD AND EVERY COMMUNIST Disagree on almost everything... You only agree on the fact that you hate cappies. Dont communist have the communist manifesto as their bible?

1. SOME ON THIS BOARD love stalin more than their own father, others hate him.

2. Same with castro.

3. I gave you two links of communist sites that state: socialism has never existed in a country, yet everyone calls Cuba a socialist country.

4. I dont think most of you admit Castro is a dictator, but these 2 sites say he is.

5. Same with Stalin.

6. Some here deny that stalin ever commited mass murder. :o :o , others on this board say he did

7. ONe thing most have in common here is : when i ask you people a question, somehow the USA gets into the Answer, you can choose from over 170 countries but you only chooose the USA. Also many of you avoid the question(like how no one has responded to me talking about the human rights violations made by cuba, when i provided a link to human rights watch.org, The only feedback i got from that question is, the usa does the same thing. WTF) or answer something else or like the stalin lovers seem to do every time, say every number i give them from different sources is biased(exploited class) and/or saying its western propaganda????

8.. This is just a question,why did/does the USSR and Cuba, china, not allow people the freedom to move to another country? IM NOT TALKING ABOUT MOVING TO THE USA CAUSE THE ANSWER IM GOING TO GET: because the USA does not let them, right their everry one is assuming that every person wants to move to the USA.
Im talking about how USSR basketball players where not allowed by their own country to play in the spanish basketball league or the italian basketball league?? Or how USSR football players couldnt play football in spain, or argentina or brasil.Or how cuban baseball players cant go play baseball in the dominican republic or venezuela (because theyre gov. doesnt let them.??

Same goes for the rest of the people(in cuba, china and the former USSR) who cant move to another country????
WHY, just answer why?

p.s. ANOTHER GREAT EXAMPLE is HOW CASTRO's OWN DAUGHTER HAD TO WEAR A WIG AND USE A FAKE PASSPORT TO MOVE TO SPAIN. OMG

Deniz Gezmis

25th December 2003, 12:41

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2003, 09:18 AM
3. I gave you two links of communist sites that state: socialism has never existed in a country, yet everyone calls Cuba a socialist country.

We say Communism never excisted, not Socialism.
I personally believed you should be banned, You're nothing more than a troll.

Bolshevika

25th December 2003, 16:52

Originally posted by Debora Aro+Dec 24 2003, 06:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Debora Aro @ Dec 24 2003, 06:22 PM)
[email protected] 24 2003, 03:54 PM
I would like to remind you, El Profe, that more people are fleeing capitalist regimes than are fleeing Cuba, and Cuba is on of the more populous Latin American nations. Also, Cuba would allow the people to leave legally, but America refuses the visas.
I didnt know that!! Do you have any references to that statement?? I would LOVE to throw that one on some Cappies I know!!! [/b]
Thousands of people put there lives on the line over Mexico-U.S. desert on the border.

Also in Europe people "get on boats" (like the Americans over-dramatize Cuban immigration) people put there lives on the line to arrive to the richer western europe natiosn. Ironically, most of the immigrants are people from the post-socialism nations that are desperate to flee capitalism http://www.eubusiness.com/imported/2003/06/113328

Pakistan is capitalist, yes? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3098268.stm

Immigrants that flee capitalist countries to regulated capitalism in Austrailia: http://www.sjc.uq.edu.au/projects/migration/

Really, with the millions that immigrate and put their lives on the line to leave Eastern Europe, Latin America, Middle East, Asia, and other capitalist cesspools do not compare to the few hundreds from Cuba. Immigration in North Korea only recently started because of the famine, and they don't immigrate to South Korea, most try to immigrate to China!

Bradyman

25th December 2003, 17:22

It is true, everyone here seems to disagree on a lot of issues. But we do agree on a few things: that the system we live under today is no good and has to be changed.

Keep in mind, el profe, that you are posting on the OPPOSING IDEOLOGIES board. Where people with different ideologies post, not with all the same ideas.

synthesis

25th December 2003, 20:38

I dotn know why I am even replaying to many of these answers.

DOES EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD AND EVERY COMMUNIST Disagree on almost everything... You only agree on the fact that you hate cappies. Dont communist have the communist manifesto as their bible?

I think this only serves to rebuke the capitalist claim that by not allowing their kind outside of OI, we are merely "patting ourselves on the back" or whatnot.

Somehow, the right assumes that the left is somehow monolithic by virtue of its existence. As you have witnessed, el_profe, this is simply not true.

The reason we do not allow capitalists outside of OI is because we have enough antagonism simply within our own ranks.

el_profe

25th December 2003, 21:27

Originally posted by Death+Dec 25 2003, 01:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Death @ Dec 25 2003, 01:41 PM)
[email protected] 25 2003, 09:18 AM
3. I gave you two links of communist sites that state: socialism has never existed in a country, yet everyone calls Cuba a socialist country.

We say Communism never excisted, not Socialism.
I personally believed you should be banned, You're nothing more than a troll. [/b]
LOL. DEATH DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I SAID, lol everyone else did but not Death.
Are you still learning to read death??
Look at what i said again, and see that i exactly say what you say.Im not going to explain it, look at it again.

el_profe

25th December 2003, 21:28

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2003, 06:22 PM
It is true, everyone here seems to disagree on a lot of issues. But we do agree on a few things: that the system we live under today is no good and has to be changed.

Keep in mind, el profe, that you are posting on the OPPOSING IDEOLOGIES board. Where people with different ideologies post, not with all the same ideas.
Oh no. Im talking about the communist, not the O.I. people.

el_profe

25th December 2003, 21:30

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2003, 09:38 PM

The reason we do not allow capitalists outside of OI is because we have enough antagonism simply within our own ranks.
Right. cant you all agree on calling stalin a murderer or saying he was a dictator, or saying Castro is a dictator.?

el_profe

25th December 2003, 21:33

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2003, 05:52 PM

Really, with the millions that immigrate and put their lives on the line to leave Eastern Europe, Latin America, Middle East, Asia, and other capitalist cesspools do not compare to the few hundreds from Cuba. Immigration in North Korea only recently started because of the famine, and they don't immigrate to South Korea, most try to immigrate to China!
Only difference is those countries/continetns you mentioned, people are allowed to leave their country not like cuba.

And once again, I already wrote a huge post on this Latin America is not capitalist.

dannie

25th December 2003, 21:49

since when can't you immigrate from cuba??? you close your eyes, the only thing you can see or those miami worms who "flee" from cuba to get in the us fast

synthesis

25th December 2003, 21:53

Originally posted by el_profe+Dec 25 2003, 10:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Dec 25 2003, 10:30 PM)
[email protected] 25 2003, 09:38 PM

The reason we do not allow capitalists outside of OI is because we have enough antagonism simply within our own ranks.
Right. cant you all agree on calling stalin a murderer or saying he was a dictator, or saying Castro is a dictator.? [/b]
Why should we? Personally, I'd like it if everyone ascribed to my view that Stalin was not 'absolutely bad' for the people of Russia, nor was he 'absolutely good.' I think Russia was better off under Stalin than they would have been under the Czar or under Trotsky, but not as well off as they would have been under a much more relaxed atmosphere.

However, some people will see Stalin as 'absolutely bad' or 'absolutely good.' I can only work to persuade people to my line of thinking; perhaps in the debate, my own views will change. Who knows?

Either way, I see no reason to enforce some sort of policy designed to make us monolithic.

Fidel Castro

25th December 2003, 21:56

It is important to distinguish however, that Cuba does have decent edges over other nations, including the best health care system in the world. Housing is moderate and provided to all people, and few go hungry. In addition, the Cuban people adore their revolution and the leader

This is what I have been pointing out all along

Don't Change Your Name

26th December 2003, 04:58

Cuba is socialist. But not completely.

el_profe

26th December 2003, 04:59

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2003, 10:49 PM
since when can't you immigrate from cuba??? you close your eyes, the only thing you can see or those miami worms who "flee" from cuba to get in the us fast
OH boy, another ignorant.
HOW DID THEY LEAVE? on floating rafts, why couldnt they live on an airplane? or on a normal boat? because castro wont let them, that is why they say they escaped cuba.

el_profe

26th December 2003, 05:21

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2003, 10:56 PM

It is important to distinguish however, that Cuba does have decent edges over other nations, including the best health care system in the world. Housing is moderate and provided to all people, and few go hungry. In addition, the Cuban people adore their revolution and the leader

This is what I have been pointing out all along
does it provide health care for all its people, ae their hostipals better than private hospitals?

Is plastic surgery covered in their health care? thats a real question, anyonw know that.

few go hungry. so some still do, so it doesnt not solve the poverty problem.

also in a poll somoene on this site gave me, to show me that cubans do like castro, the poll said that cuban's major conserne was tehir food shortages.

synthesis

26th December 2003, 05:31

the poll said that cuban's major conserne was tehir food shortages.

Umm, not quite.

Asked what problems have been caused in Cuba by U.S. economic sanctions, 62% of those familiar with that law said it has created major problems for Cuba, 24% said the usual problems and the remainder gave no response. Followed responses also cited the U.S. blockade as the principal cause of the island's economic problems.

Although the second largest majority chose food shortages to be Cuba's most serious problem, most said to be either completely or partly satisfied with their present consumption. An overwhelming number of respondents also indicated that they believe conditions will improve as a result of government reforms.

http://www.marxmail.org/facts/cuba_gallup.htm

el_profe

26th December 2003, 05:45

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2003, 06:31 AM

the poll said that cuban's major conserne was tehir food shortages.

Umm, not quite.

Asked what problems have been caused in Cuba by U.S. economic sanctions, 62% of those familiar with that law said it has created major problems for Cuba, 24% said the usual problems and the remainder gave no response. Followed responses also cited the U.S. blockade as the principal cause of the island's economic problems.

Although the second largest majority chose food shortages to be Cuba's most serious problem, most said to be either completely or partly satisfied with their present consumption. An overwhelming number of respondents also indicated that they believe conditions will improve as a result of government reforms.

http://www.marxmail.org/facts/cuba_gallup.htm
:unsure: my bad, i didnt have the info in fron of me. Okay the second largest concern.

what was the first concern?

Domino

26th December 2003, 07:35

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 12:00 PM
Well it would be nice to see everyone have a common ground. YOu have communist here who dont like stalin because he has given communism "a bad" name. But then you have the one's that would take a bullet for stalin.
If you could read you would see the only forum in this message board that accepts Stalinists is this one, "Opposing Ideologies", hence, the rest of the forums are Stalinists free. The people that participates in the other forums are not Stalinists, so you shouldn't talk.

WHY ARE people not allowed to leave CUBA? for example, if livan hernandez wanted to leave cuba to play baseball in the dominican republic he would of not been allowed by his own country.

Can't you read this?:
Cuba would allow the people to leave legally, but America refuses the visas.

ANyone who denies the facts that stalin murdered millions is just insane and does not want to admit these fact because they idolize stalin so much.

Anyone who denies the facts that Bush is murdering millions is just insane and does not want to admit these facts because they idolize U$A's daddy's boy so much.

Cuba allow the people to leave legally? yeah. lol
Like Livan hernandez

That's the only example you can give, isn't it?

the human rights violations made by cuba, when i provided a link to human rights watch.org, The only feedback i got from that question is, the usa does the same thing

And what's YOUR answer to ALL the human rights violations the U$A makes?

Right. cant you all agree on calling stalin a murderer or saying he was a dictator, or saying Castro is a dictator.?

You forgot Bush in that list, mate.

does it [Cuba] provide health care for all its people

Yes.

And lad, please slow it down with the capital letters in a whole sentence, and use one when you write someone's name.

ComradeRobertRiley

26th December 2003, 14:10

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2003, 11:38 PM
The reason we do not allow capitalists outside of OI is because we have enough antagonism simply within our own ranks.
Well put comrade

cubist

26th December 2003, 14:32

Originally posted by el_profe+Dec 26 2003, 06:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Dec 26 2003, 06:21 AM)
[email protected] 25 2003, 10:56 PM

It is important to distinguish however, that Cuba does have decent edges over other nations, including the best health care system in the world. Housing is moderate and provided to all people, and few go hungry. In addition, the Cuban people adore their revolution and the leader

This is what I have been pointing out all along
does it provide health care for all its people, ae their hostipals better than private hospitals?

Is plastic surgery covered in their health care? thats a real question, anyonw know that.

few go hungry. so some still do, so it doesnt not solve the poverty problem.

also in a poll somoene on this site gave me, to show me that cubans do like castro, the poll said that cuban's major conserne was tehir food shortages. [/b]
congrats el profe

only a few things

plastic surgery what for your moms boobs? i don't think fidel is a big fan of materialism so commercial plastic surgery is probably not done wouldn't you say. how ever i am unaware of the stance on cosmetic plastic surgery for burn victims etc

private health care, if you pay for it it should be better than the standard in the free health care else private wouldn't be succesfull would it! twat

how many go hungry in america???

how many are in poverty now becuase they didn't want to let theyre kids down over christmas in thyre capitalist society,

el_profe

26th December 2003, 18:16

Originally posted by cephas+Dec 26 2003, 03:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cephas @ Dec 26 2003, 03:32 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2003, 06:21 AM

[email protected] 25 2003, 10:56 PM

It is important to distinguish however, that Cuba does have decent edges over other nations, including the best health care system in the world. Housing is moderate and provided to all people, and few go hungry. In addition, the Cuban people adore their revolution and the leader

This is what I have been pointing out all along
does it provide health care for all its people, ae their hostipals better than private hospitals?

Is plastic surgery covered in their health care? thats a real question, anyonw know that.

few go hungry. so some still do, so it doesnt not solve the poverty problem.

also in a poll somoene on this site gave me, to show me that cubans do like castro, the poll said that cuban's major conserne was tehir food shortages.
congrats el profe

only a few things

plastic surgery what for your moms boobs? i don't think fidel is a big fan of materialism so commercial plastic surgery is probably not done wouldn't you say. how ever i am unaware of the stance on cosmetic plastic surgery for burn victims etc

private health care, if you pay for it it should be better than the standard in the free health care else private wouldn't be succesfull would it! twat

how many go hungry in america???

how many are in poverty now becuase they didn't want to let theyre kids down over christmas in thyre capitalist society, [/b]
punk voter.com as your avatar?
go listen to some more good charlotte and sum 41.lol

As to the plastic surgery, it was a legitimate question.

How many go hungry in america?Not many if your looking at the number in %.
In mexico I know 70% 70 million of mexicans live in extreme poverty, extreme means you live in a shack with no running water and probably no electricity. the number in millions and especially in % is much less in the USA.
Ans what country has been more "capitalist" in their history? the USA.
Youre going to say the USA exploited mexico as your answer, wrong, i dont want to explain why, go loolk for a post on , something through socialism (i forgot the first name of the post).

Bradyman

26th December 2003, 18:30

You can't just say that because USA is doing the best and is more capitalist means that capitalism is the best system.

For one, there are a myriad of factors that contribute to the economic success of America, mainly its large expanse and abundant resources.

More importantly though, just because USA's economy is doing so well does not mean that capitalism is the best. If you were to use that logic you would assume that Spain's or England's fedual societies were the prime system. Or prehaps their imperialism was the key. Or better yet, maybe the Greeks and Romans were the best with all their slaves. These empires were the strongest and best at the time; was slavery, imperialism, and fedualism the way to go? Obviously not.

Just because a few key countries have "capitalism" and seem to be dominating, doesn't mean that their system is the best and final system. It is only the best system of the time, wait another 500 years and the economic system will be far different than anything today.

el_profe

26th December 2003, 18:42

Originally posted by tetelives+Dec 26 2003, 08:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tetelives @ Dec 26 2003, 08:35 AM)
el_pr[email protected] 24 2003, 12:00 PM
Well it would be nice to see everyone have a common ground. YOu have communist here who dont like stalin because he has given communism "a bad" name. But then you have the one's that would take a bullet for stalin.
If you could read you would see the only forum in this message board that accepts Stalinists is this one, "Opposing Ideologies", hence, the rest of the forums are Stalinists free. The people that participates in the other forums are not Stalinists, so you shouldn't talk.

[/b]
Horrible post, y addressed many of your quesiton in prevoious post in this topic.

There is many stalinist in this forum not in OI, all ive seen are members not estricted memebrs. so youre wrong.

Can't you read this?:

Cuba would allow the people to leave legally, but America refuses the visas.

Oh , you didtn read my post. I said dont bring the USA into this, but no one cannot bring the USA into this. I saqid what if they want to move to sapin, argentina, UK??????? they still cant, so you cant read my post.

WHY ARE people not allowed to leave CUBA? for example, if livan hernandez wanted to leave cuba to play baseball in the dominican republic he would of not been allowed by his own country.
That's the only example you can give, isn't it?
LOL. NO, you didnt read my other post.
How about, Jose contrears(pitcher for the yankess), orlando hernandez, other mlb players who escaped cuba, baseball players in the PR league, volleyball players that have escaped to play in the european volleyball leagues. Plus the 1.5 million Cubans in the USA, Oh and Castro's daughter who escaped to SPAIN.

ANyone who denies the facts that stalin murdered millions is just insane and does not want to admit these fact because they idolize stalin so much.

Anyone who denies the facts that Bush is murdering millions is just insane and does not want to admit these facts because they idolize U$A's daddy's boy so much.

millions? :o lol youre estimate are a several thousand off. Bush a dictator? wasnt he elected? most of you say no, but he did win th eelectoral, a 4 year dictator who is running for election again. He does not have absolute power. So youre wrong.
millions? maybe thousand and he is not ordering them to be murdered they are casualties of war , stalin on the other hand did ordered the murder of millions.
As to your comment "because they idolize USA daddy's boy so much" it makes no sense. Im not american, idolize is what people do with stalin. Some, many on this board would kill someone just for a chance to meet one of their heroes either stalin or el che, even castro.
BY THE WAY HAVE ANY OF YOU MET CASTRO?
I THINK MOST OF YOU REALLY ARE JUST DEMOCRATS WHO HATE BUSH ALOT, WHY DOESNT ANYONE BRING UP THE BOMBINGS MADE BY CLINTON, OR THE FACT THAT THEY OCCUPIED WITH THEIR ARMY KOSOVO? I DONT SEE MANY OF YOU *****ING ABOUT THAT, OR THE FACT THAT CLINTON BOMBED A ASPIRIN FACTORY IN SUDAN, why dont any of you ever mention that, you dont care about african people? why does no one talk about the bombing of iraq during the clinton era? YOu know BUSH HAS ONLY been in power for 3 years? i think you would blame him for WWI if you had the chance.

the human rights violations made by cuba, when i provided a link to human rights watch.org, The only feedback i got from that question is, the usa does the same thing

And what's YOUR answer to ALL the human rights violations the U$A makes?

off course they made violations, and if you dont know, many of those violations have been made before bush.

Right. cant you all agree on calling stalin a murderer or saying he was a dictator, or saying Castro is a dictator.?

You forgot Bush in that list, mate.
already addressed this question, was clinton a dictator, he bombed and occupied kosovo, he bombed serbia-montenegro(yugoslavia ), iraq like 2 times. an aspirin fatory in sudan. among other things.

does it [Cuba] provide health care for all its people

Yes.

I said yes to that question, does it provide good healthacare?

And lad, please slow it down with the capital letters in a whole sentence, and use one when you write someone's name. um, read post before you respond, use smart arguments, dont assume that everyone is american, use another o****ry other than america.....

Domino

26th December 2003, 20:30

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2003, 01:42 PM
Oh , you didtn read my post. I said dont bring the USA into this
Uhm, hello? Unlike you, I read before I speak, yes I read that post. The U$A has to be in this, they are the biggest part of the problem in this world.

Oh and Castro's daughter who escaped to SPAIN

:lol: So just because she escaped now all Cuba doesn't love Castro. Open your eyes buddy, she being his daughter doesn't say ANYTHING.

Bush a dictator? wasnt he elected?

No, but answering to the dictator question, which is so obvious and it's getting old, Bush is a dictator just like Saddam, just like Clinton was too.

BY THE WAY HAVE ANY OF YOU MET CASTRO?

I haven't personally. A close friend of mine have met him several times cause his dad and Fidel are good friends. What does that have to do with anything, though?

off course they [the U$A] made violations, and if you dont know, many of those violations have been made before bush.

Right. But you didn't answer, what's YOUR answer to ALL the human rights violations the U$A makes?

You should really stop kissing yankee asses and have some opinions for yourself. You're the one that should read, bad spelling shows that you don't and it's not nice. Stop repeating the same thing you say in every post.

el_profe

26th December 2003, 21:15

Originally posted by tetelives+Dec 26 2003, 09:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tetelives @ Dec 26 2003, 09:30 PM)

[/b]
lol. another horrible post, lol.

[email protected] 26 2003, 01:42 PM
Oh , you didtn read my post. I said dont bring the USA into this
Uhm, hello? Unlike you, I read before I speak, yes I read that post. The U$A has to be in this, they are the biggest part of the problem in this world.
Well that is your problem, you just want to hate the biggest(in power) o****ry in the world mostly because your jealous, so many people in your country go to the USA, why is that? why dont they try to go south instead of going north?

Was the USA the biggest problem in WWII, or WWI, was it the biggest problem when they helped in kosovo or helped remove milosevic or when they got saddam out of kuwait? You just hate the USA just as much as the terrorist do, you should go with those religious freaks and join al queda.
You probably also hate jews.

Oh and Castro's daughter who escaped to SPAIN

:lol: So just because she escaped now all Cuba doesn't love Castro. Open your eyes buddy, she being his daughter doesn't say ANYTHING.
NO. Did I ever say every cuban hates castro? no. But if his own daughter does not like him then many others dont like him either.

Bush a dictator? wasnt he elected?

No, but answering to the dictator question, which is so obvious and it's getting old, Bush is a dictator just like Saddam, just like Clinton was too.
dictator:An absolute ruler, Bush or clinton are not absolute rulers unlike saddam and castro.

BY THE WAY HAVE ANY OF YOU MET CASTRO?

I haven't personally. A close friend of mine have met him several times cause his dad and Fidel are good friends. What does that have to do with anything, though?

Nothing, i just wanted to see if any of you had met him.

off course they [the U$A] made violations, and if you dont know, many of those violations have been made before bush.

Right. But you didn't answer, what's YOUR answer to ALL the human rights violations the U$A makes?

what do you mean my answer, I said yes they have made human rights abuses, unlike everyone(mostly everyone here who keeps denying Castro has made human rights violations, and the stupid few who deny stalin ever made any human rights violations.

You should really stop kissing yankee asses and have some opinions for yourself. You're the one that should read, bad spelling shows that you don't and it's not nice. Stop repeating the same thing you say in every post.

And you should really stop hating and blaming the USA for everything, you probably blame them for WWI and WWII. The USA gives your country's goverments a lot money in aid and they wasted a lot of it. They are also letting all the mexican illegal immigrants stay, so maybe they are not as bad as you think they are. AS to kissing the USA's ass, I just do something everyone in this board fails to do. LOOK AT THE FACTS.

Domino

26th December 2003, 21:31

For reason I can't quote directly, so I'll do this...

QUOTES from (el_profe)

Well that is your problem, you just want to hate the biggest (in power) o****ry in the world mostly because your jealous, so many people in your country go to the USA, why is that?

Jealous?! :lol: Don't make me laugh! I would kill myself before going to live there. I wouldn't change my country for anything in this world. And as for the people that cross the borders, have you noticed what kind of people it is? I hurt for them. If they can't read or write, they won't know what capitalism is. They are running to the same bad conditions they lived in and they don't even know it.

You probably also hate jews.

Shut your mouth before you speak, I'm jewish.

And you should really stop hating and blaming the USA for everything, you probably blame them for WWI and WWII.

They certainly did nothing for my people during the holucaust. They didn't do anything to save lives during WWII until they saw themselves threatened.

el_profe

26th December 2003, 23:53

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2003, 10:31 PM

QUOTES from (el_profe)

Well that is your problem, you just want to hate the biggest (in power) o****ry in the world mostly because your jealous, so many people in your country go to the USA, why is that?

Jealous?! :lol: Don't make me laugh! I would kill myself before going to live there. I wouldn't change my country for anything in this world. And as for the people that cross the borders, have you noticed what kind of people it is? I hurt for them. If they can't read or write, they won't know what capitalism is. They are running to the same bad conditions they lived in and they don't even know it.
Of course its very poor people, but mexico needs to find a way to make solution instead of blaming the USA.
As to they walkin into the same bad conditions. THAT IS SO WRONG, you know it, most do much better.

You probably also hate jews.

Shut your mouth before you speak, I'm jewish.
Oh well, you cant join al-queda now. USUALLY HATE FOR THE USA GOES HAND IN HAND with hatred of the jews. ex. palestine, iran, syria all hate Israel and hate the USA for helping them.
IF you are jewish, you should have a little more appreciation fro the USA since they have been good allies of Israel.

And you should really stop hating and blaming the USA for everything, you probably blame them for WWI and WWII.

They certainly did nothing for my people during the holucaust. They didn't do anything to save lives during WWII until they saw themselves threatened.

true. But they have accepted many jewish people throughout the years, many. I would say their are more jews in the USA, than in any other country (except Israel). As to WWII, true they should of acted sooner. But how about germany, france, england, they all could of acted sooner. what country did Einstein choose to go to?. But in the end the USA did help alot in WWII.

Domino

27th December 2003, 00:54

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2003, 06:53 PM
Of course its very poor people, but mexico needs to find a way to make solution instead of blaming the USA.
Wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm not blaming the U$ for the illegal people that crosses the border. Where did you get that from? Yes, I blame them for many things cause it's true, but when did I say it's their fault that so many people crosses the border ilegally?

IF you are jewish, you should have a little more appreciation fro the USA since they have been good allies of Israel.

I don't live in Israel. And by the way, Hebrews are allies of the U$A, not jews. Of course there are jews there, but that's not Israel's ethnic group.

What country did Einstein choose to go to?

And thousands of others chose Mexico, Canada, Chile, Argentina...

Bradyman

27th December 2003, 01:17

Hey, el profe.

Einstein was a socialist. So though he might have moved to the US, he deeply believed that socialism was the way to go.

Einstein on Socialism (http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Einstein.htm)

"We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive." -Einstein.

el_profe

27th December 2003, 02:26

Originally posted by tetelives+Dec 27 2003, 01:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tetelives @ Dec 27 2003, 01:54 AM)
[email protected] 26 2003, 06:53 PM
Of course its very poor people, but mexico needs to find a way to make solution instead of blaming the USA.
Wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm not blaming the U$ for the illegal people that crosses the border. Where did you get that from? Yes, I blame them for many things cause it's true, but when did I say it's their fault that so many people crosses the border ilegally?

[/b]
I never said you blame the USA for the people crossing the border illegaly.
I said that mexico and almost all latin american countries should start trying to fix their own problems instead of blaming the USA for their problems.

IF you are jewish, you should have a little more appreciation fro the USA since they have been good allies of Israel.

I don't live in Israel. And by the way, Hebrews are allies of the U$A, not jews. Of course there are jews there, but that's not Israel's ethnic group.

Isnt historically known that jews come from Israel.?

el_profe

27th December 2003, 02:30

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2003, 02:17 AM
Hey, el profe.

Einstein was a socialist. So though he might have moved to the US, he deeply believed that socialism was the way to go.

Einstein on Socialism (http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Einstein.htm)

"We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive." -Einstein.
I dont care what he was. I was saying out of all the countries he could choose, He choosed the USA.

el_profe

27th December 2003, 02:34

THIS IS A GREAT ARTICLE. PLEASE EVERYONE READ THIS.

Isn't the U.S. embargo of Cuba the cause of Cuba's economic woes? http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=267
this one is also good: http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1741
got this from: http://www.libertyforcuba.com/

The 2nd article is great couase it points out that the joint-venture enterprises mostly owned by Europeans exploits cuba and cuba's workers. Because the companies pay very low wages. So all of you who want the USA to lift its embargo, dont realize that the USA is going to do the same exploitation. I can imagine Nike doing it shoes in CUBA paying 10 dollars a month and having much less shipping costs.

Deniz Gezmis

27th December 2003, 22:31

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2003, 03:34 AM
THIS IS A GREAT ARTICLE. PLEASE EVERYONE READ THIS.

Isn't the U.S. embargo of Cuba the cause of Cuba's economic woes? http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=267
this one is also good: http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1741
got this from: http://www.libertyforcuba.com/

The 2nd article is great couase it points out that the joint-venture enterprises mostly owned by Europeans exploits cuba and cuba's workers. Because the companies pay very low wages. So all of you who want the USA to lift its embargo, dont realize that the USA is going to do the same exploitation. I can imagine Nike doing it shoes in CUBA paying 10 dollars a month and having much less shipping costs.
I'm very ill, Therefore i'm not in a position to prove all of those contradictrary articles wrong.

"To recommend that the United States drop the embargo with Cuba after Castro 'nationalized' (robbed) the property of all the American companies who built them (which resulted in the embargo) is unjust to the Americans Castro looted."

200,000 families benifited from this. (SOURCE: Che Guevara: Life of a legend)
Now, Who is more better off? 200,000 famlies or a small group of the Yankee elite? :)

el_profe

27th December 2003, 23:18

I just say this to everyone who is for the embargo being lifted (me).

The 2nd article is great cause it points out that the joint-venture enterprises mostly owned by Europeans exploits cuba and cuba's workers. Because the companies pay very low wages. So all of you who want the USA to lift its embargo, dont realize that the USA is going to do the same exploitation. I can imagine Nike doing it shoes in CUBA paying 10 dollars a month and having much less shipping costs.
So why do you want the embargo lifted, if its going to exploit the cuban people?

Deniz Gezmis

27th December 2003, 23:21

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 12:18 AM
I just say this to everyone who is for the embargo being lifted (me).

The 2nd article is great cause it points out that the joint-venture enterprises mostly owned by Europeans exploits cuba and cuba's workers. Because the companies pay very low wages. So all of you who want the USA to lift its embargo, dont realize that the USA is going to do the same exploitation. I can imagine Nike doing it shoes in CUBA paying 10 dollars a month and having much less shipping costs.
So why do you want the embargo lifted, if its going to exploit the cuban people?
Please answer my question. Then i shall answer yours. Please also answer my question on TURKEY in the other thread please.

Bolshevika

27th December 2003, 23:41

That's real reliable El Profe, you give us some articles written by yuppy pieces of shit at Capitalism magazine.

Here is another little pro-Batista Gem by them I found at the "liberty for Cuba" site http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2496

Seriously, the people at capitalism magazine deserve the death penalty 50 times over. I would take pleasure in hanging them in public (a shooting would be a waste of bullets).

el_profe

27th December 2003, 23:41

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 12:21 AM

Please answer my question. Then i shall answer yours. Please also answer my question on TURKEY in the other thread please.

200,000 families benifited from this. (SOURCE: Che Guevara: Life of a legend)
Now, Who is more better off? 200,000 famlies or a small group of the Yankee elite?

Does it make it right to take over those companies?
He kicked the americans out and now he wants to trade with them??????

Besides those american families where emplying cubans to work in Cuba so to those 200,000 lets subtract the number of emplyes that worked for american companies.

What quesition on turkey on what thread?

Deniz Gezmis

28th December 2003, 00:04

Originally posted by el_profe+Dec 28 2003, 12:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Dec 28 2003, 12:41 AM)
[email protected] 28 2003, 12:21 AM

Please answer my question. Then i shall answer yours. Please also answer my question on TURKEY in the other thread please.

200,000 families benifited from this. (SOURCE: Che Guevara: Life of a legend)
Now, Who is more better off? 200,000 famlies or a small group of the Yankee elite?

Does it make it right to take over those companies?
He kicked the americans out and now he wants to trade with them??????

Besides those american families where emplying cubans to work in Cuba so to those 200,000 lets subtract the number of emplyes that worked for american companies.

What quesition on turkey on what thread? [/b]
He didn't kick out Americans, Many of them felt threatened and choce to leave. There's a book written by an American that stays in Cuba under Castro. Not sure what you call it though.

Yes, But atleast they can own land now.

The question was, Turkey is an ally of Israel, But Turkey's main relgion is Islam. Therefore your arguement that all Muslims hate Islam is false.

el_profe

28th December 2003, 04:10

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 01:04 AM

He didn't kick out Americans, Many of them felt threatened and choce to leave. There's a book written by an American that stays in Cuba under Castro. Not sure what you call it though.

Yes, But atleast they can own land now.

The question was, Turkey is an ally of Israel, But Turkey's main relgion is Islam. Therefore your arguement that all Muslims hate Islam is false.
Im not talking about americans, I mean the companies, he did kick out the companies. And you will say they where expoiting, well what the hell do you think they will do if the embargo is lifted? the same thing.

I didnt say all muslims, I said most if not all muslims hate jews. Meaning its probably most maybe all.

Is turkey's goverment muslim? cause that is who counts, and the people in turkey dont like the fact that their gov. is helping the USA and Israel.

Deniz Gezmis

28th December 2003, 05:01

Originally posted by el_profe+Dec 28 2003, 05:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Dec 28 2003, 05:10 AM)
[email protected] 28 2003, 01:04 AM

He didn't kick out Americans, Many of them felt threatened and choce to leave. There's a book written by an American that stays in Cuba under Castro. Not sure what you call it though.

Yes, But atleast they can own land now.

The question was, Turkey is an ally of Israel, But Turkey's main relgion is Islam. Therefore your arguement that all Muslims hate Islam is false.
Im not talking about americans, I mean the companies, he did kick out the companies. And you will say they where expoiting, well what the hell do you think they will do if the embargo is lifted? the same thing.

I didnt say all muslims, I said most if not all muslims hate jews. Meaning its probably most maybe all.

Is turkey's goverment muslim? cause that is who counts, and the people in turkey dont like the fact that their gov. is helping the USA and Israel. [/b]
Yes. The current head of state is a muslim. He likes Israel and America, Thanks for letting me prove you wrong. If the embargo is lifted the Communists will make sure that the past will not return. What your saying is completely foolish.

el_profe

28th December 2003, 05:23

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 06:01 AM

Yes. The current head of state is a muslim. He likes Israel and America, Thanks for letting me prove you wrong. If the embargo is lifted the Communists will make sure that the past will not return. What your saying is completely foolish.
lol, proving me wrong? I asked you a question and you answered me, how is that proving me wrong, how can you prove a question wrong?
anyway, he likes Israel and America. Then why didnt turkey let the USA use their territory to invade northern Iraq?
Okay i was wrong about the maybe all, i guess its just most.
LETS END THE DISCUSSION OF Israel on this thread. If you want to talk about israel use the other thread.

If its Cuba's embargo is lifted which i hope happens you will see the same exploitation made by USA companies you see in Vietnam and China.

Deniz Gezmis

28th December 2003, 05:27

Originally posted by el_profe+Dec 28 2003, 06:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Dec 28 2003, 06:23 AM)
[email protected] 28 2003, 06:01 AM

Yes. The current head of state is a muslim. He likes Israel and America, Thanks for letting me prove you wrong. If the embargo is lifted the Communists will make sure that the past will not return. What your saying is completely foolish.
lol, proving me wrong? I asked you a question and you answered me, how is that proving me wrong, how can you prove a question wrong?
anyway, he likes Israel and America. Then why didnt turkey let the USA use their territory to invade northern Iraq?
Okay i was wrong about the maybe all, i guess its just most.
LETS END THE DISCUSSION OF Israel on this thread. If you want to talk about israel use the other thread.

If its Cuba's embargo is lifted which i hope happens you will see the same exploitation made by USA companies you see in Vietnam and China. [/b]
They didn't let them because theres a complex situation between the Kurds and Turks in Turkey and the government didn't want to flare up the Kurds agian.
What the hell, You endorse sweatshops?

cubist

28th December 2003, 17:17

punk voter.com as your avatar?
go listen to some more good charlotte and sum 41.lol

As to the plastic surgery, it was a legitimate question.

How many go hungry in america?Not many if your looking at the number in %.
In mexico I know 70% 70 million of mexicans live in extreme poverty, extreme means you live in a shack with no running water and probably no electricity. the number in millions and especially in % is much less in the USA.
Ans what country has been more "capitalist" in their history? the USA.
Youre going to say the USA exploited mexico as your answer, wrong, i dont want to explain why, go loolk for a post on , something through socialism (i forgot the first name of the post).

el profe

firstly Fuck YOU, my choice in avatar has been a punk voter one for about 4 months, it doesn't make me a less credible person, (i do that by myself) it does however make you less credible as you try and bring someone down over a music choice, and then ASSume that punk means shitty teenie bands with big spikey hare and the odd fowl word.

the more you speak the more i want a plane ticket to where you live to slap you with a large stick

punk voter means punk bands you gipsy prick, goodcharlotte are capitalistic american whores, sum 41 are shite,

try nofx propergandhi good riddance they might teach you something about the bullshit society you support, expecially propergandhi.

one of my favourite songs by propergandhi

TODAY'S EMPIRES, TOMORROW'S ASHES

The tangled webs they weave span from Pine to Ruby Ridge, way back from Shay's defeat on up to Gustafsen (now cue the ass parade of ditto-heads and commissars and pricks to drown out this faintest threat of commie faggot heretics). Conclusion: the nail that sticks up gets hammered down and the master's finest tools are found slack-jawed and placid amidst the cacophony of screaming billboards and Disney-fied history. Sometimes the ties that bind are strange: no justice shines upon the cemetery plots marked Hampton, Weaver or Anna-Mae where Federal Bureaus and Fraternal Orders have cast their shadows; permanent features built into these borders. But undercover of the customary gap we find between History and Truth, the Founding Fathers bask in the rocket's blinding red glare. The bombs bursting in air. One nation. Indivisible? The truth is when the back-country learned of ratification the People had a coffin painted black and solemnly borne in funeral procession, they buried it deep in the earth as an emblem of the dissolution and internment of their Publick Liberty. Someday, somewhere, today's empires are tomorrow's ashes.

watch out though the may you big words which might confuse you,

legitimate question it was a legitimate answer to or can't you read, i said i don't think castro would support commercial cosmetic surgery it being only important in the materialism of the capitalist world.

something for you to remember next time your praising the americans,

There IS a political axis of evil running strong in the United States that underpins the Bush regime, which includes the oil industry, military-industrial complex (MIC), other transnationals, and the Christian Right, all important contributors to the Bush electoral triumph, and each of which has high level representation in the administration including, besides Bush himself, Cheney, Rumsfeld, O'Neill and Ashcroft.

This REAL axis of evil is using 9/11 and the "war on terrorism" to carry out its foreign and domestic agenda on a truly impressive scale, and so far without much impediment at home or abroad.
What is notable about their agenda is that it flies in the face of all of the requirements for peace, global democracy, economic equity and justice, ecological and environmental protection, and global stability. It represents the choice of an overpowerful country's elite, determined to consolidate their economic and political advantage in the short run, at whatever cost to global society. Axis Of Evil -- in Washington, D.C.
by Edward Herman

el_profe

28th December 2003, 22:30

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 06:17 PM

el profe

firstly Fuck YOU, my choice in avatar has been a punk voter one for about 4 months, it doesn't make me a less credible person, (i do that by myself) it does however make you less credible as you try and bring someone down over a music choice, and then ASSume that punk means shitty teenie bands with big spikey hare and the odd fowl word.

the more you speak the more i want a plane ticket to where you live to slap you with a large stick

punk voter means punk bands you gipsy prick, goodcharlotte are capitalistic american whores, sum 41 are shite,

try nofx propergandhi good riddance they might teach you something about the bullshit society you support, expecially propergandhi.

good, you also dont like goodcharlotte.
I know what the fuck punkvoter.com
and if good charlotte are capitalist american whores(i see them as mtv american whores) why is Nofx going to do a tour with them? WTF.
And who does punkvoter suggest you vote for? the democrats, their the same crap.

One of my favorite nofx lyrics:
From the song : "all outa angst"
"So I'm off to Pakistan, learn the laws of Islam
Fundamentalism, forget that rock 'n' roll
No cigarette, no drink, in fact
It's difficult to think about getting laid
When you don't even get to see her face
I'm not insane"

cubist

29th December 2003, 14:10

thats not the point El_profe.

punk voter, is encouraging people not to vote for bush something we need to do.

you seem to forget that we are living in capitalism and if youve got to live in it, you may as well vote for the least inhumane option the option that is best for you, not voting is not the option.

nofx can tour with who they want, nofx are a good punk band i like listening to the and they are politically minded with great songs like idiot son an of an asshole.

el_profe

30th December 2003, 05:22

Back to CUBA:

THIS IS A GREAT ARTICLE. PLEASE EVERYONE READ THIS.

Isn't the U.S. embargo of Cuba the cause of Cuba's economic woes? http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=267
this one is also good: http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1741
Here is a quote from the previous link:"This question ignores the fact that every country in the world (other than United States and Israel--which may explain why the Left hates Israel) has normal trade relations with Cuba. As wealthy as Americans are, is the United States the only country in the world that has wealth? The fact is all the countries in Europe, South America, Asia, etc. all have trade relations with Cuba. So the real question is: why isn't Cuba rich from its trade with all these other countries?"

got this from: http://www.libertyforcuba.com/

The 2nd article is great couase it points out that the joint-venture enterprises mostly owned by Europeans exploits cuba and cuba's workers. Because the companies pay very low wages. So all of you who want the USA to lift its embargo, dont realize that the USA is going to do the same exploitation. I can imagine Nike doing it shoes in CUBA paying 10 dollars a month and having much less shipping costs.

LuZhiming

30th December 2003, 19:51

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2003, 06:22 AM
Back to CUBA:

THIS IS A GREAT ARTICLE. PLEASE EVERYONE READ THIS.

Isn't the U.S. embargo of Cuba the cause of Cuba's economic woes? http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=267
this one is also good: http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1741
Here is a quote from the previous link:"This question ignores the fact that every country in the world (other than United States and Israel--which may explain why the Left hates Israel) has normal trade relations with Cuba. As wealthy as Americans are, is the United States the only country in the world that has wealth? The fact is all the countries in Europe, South America, Asia, etc. all have trade relations with Cuba. So the real question is: why isn't Cuba rich from its trade with all these other countries?"

got this from: http://www.libertyforcuba.com/

The 2nd article is great couase it points out that the joint-venture enterprises mostly owned by Europeans exploits cuba and cuba's workers. Because the companies pay very low wages. So all of you who want the USA to lift its embargo, dont realize that the USA is going to do the same exploitation. I can imagine Nike doing it shoes in CUBA paying 10 dollars a month and having much less shipping costs.
Great source, it ignores the arguement on why the embargo hurts Cuba. Wow, Capitalist Magazine, can't get much more reliable than that, eh? That article also quite openly says that Castro stole the U.S. businesses' owned land. Ha, the U.S. stole Cuba originally. Hmm, let me think, if you knew much at all, you would know that there are many significant medicines only found in the U.S. You apparently aren't aware of the technological superiority in the U.S., there are quite a large number of products only in the U.S. And that means more when you consider (Which of course, you weren't clever enough to bother doing) that before Castro, Cuba's economy relied on the U.S., most of the businesses and land were U.S. owned. So don't you think it makes sense that Cuba would be hurt by becoming isolated almost over night? :rolleyes: Look, before Castro, the U.S. was by far Cuba's biggest trading partner. Losing your biggest trading partner overnight is devastating. And the Soviet Union, who became Cuba's next greatest trading partner, are not around anymore, and still Cuba has managed to survive. You also completely ignore the U.S.' influence to the world. Sure, it's legal for other countries to trade with Cuba, but that doesn't mean they do. During the supposed Cold War, Capitalist nations were always hesitant to trade with Cuba, and many of them still are. And when the British Leyland Compand was defiant, its products were sabotaged. And that brings me to another aspect of your ignorance, you ignore the sabotage and destruction of products that the U.S. trained exiles carry out.

I have an article to show as well, here read it: http://www.transafricaforum.org/reports/pr...uba_print.shtml (http://www.transafricaforum.org/reports/print/cuba_print.shtml)

el_profe

30th December 2003, 23:08

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2003, 08:51 PM

Great source, it ignores the arguement on why the embargo hurts Cuba. Wow, Capitalist Magazine, can't get much more reliable than that, eh? That article also quite openly says that Castro stole the U.S. businesses' owned land. Ha, the U.S. stole Cuba originally. Hmm, let me think, if you knew much at all, you would know that there are many significant medicines only found in the U.S. You apparently aren't aware of the technological superiority in the U.S., there are quite a large number of products only in the U.S. And that means more when you consider (Which of course, you weren't clever enough to bother doing) that before Castro, Cuba's economy relied on the U.S., most of the businesses and land were U.S. owned. So don't you think it makes sense that Cuba would be hurt by becoming isolated almost over night? :rolleyes: Look, before Castro, the U.S. was by far Cuba's biggest trading partner. Losing your biggest trading partner overnight is devastating. And the Soviet Union, who became Cuba's next greatest trading partner, are not around anymore, and still Cuba has managed to survive. You also completely ignore the U.S.' influence to the world. Sure, it's legal for other countries to trade with Cuba, but that doesn't mean they do. During the supposed Cold War, Capitalist nations were always hesitant to trade with Cuba, and many of them still are. And when the British Leyland Compand was defiant, its products were sabotaged. And that brings me to another aspect of your ignorance, you ignore the sabotage and destruction of products that the U.S. trained exiles carry out.

Whre did all that technology the USA has come from?? it came from a more free-market style economy, not from socialism.

If Castro depended so much on the USA why did he kick th USA compnaies out, You say those companies stole the land from cuba??? No they bought it, whoever was in charge at the time the company was built in Cuba they paid that gov. So no Castro did not have a right to kick them out.
Now is it those companies fault that the money they paid was badly managed by the gov.? no.

And you didnt answer my question, Dont you think if the USA lifts its embargo, USA companies are going to try to make a deal with Castro to put factories (like nike does in china) and pay workers very little money?
That would create the exploitation you all hate.
In fact that exploitation can already be seen in the tourist hotels in cuba and the resorts. Where European companies exploit the workers by paying them very little money.

Youre link showed what many of the people on the forum deny, they say castro does not opress the cuban people.
"Civil Liberties

Of great concern to the delegation was the question of civil liberties. At every meeting, delegation members raised questions about legislation that criminalized dissent and independent reporting; restrictions on freedom of movement and freedom of assembly; strict controls on labor rights; police abuses; the imprisonment of political opponents; and harsh prison conditions, particularly for political prisoners. These concerns were never satisfactorily addressed, although the recent release of a number of political prisoners and the government's response to the Pope's call for greater individual freedoms had clearly positive impacts."

Political prisoners :o :o

another quote from that link:
"At the Abel Santa Maria school for children with vision problems in Havana, there is one functional computer for two hundred and twelve children. The computer has Windows 95. Unfortunately it has neither braille nor voice recognition software. Because of the embargo, technology and educational supplies that are readily available in the United States cannot be purchased by Cuba at any price. Cuba is forced to spend its dwindling foreign exchange reserves to purchase essential educational and medical supplies at exorbitant prices from distant markets. In some cases, where the material is available only in the United States, they have to do without. Then the people suffer ... especially the children. Sometimes they are permanently disabled or they die as a result. This is unconscionable..."

LOL. They cant import computers from the USA. Last time i check they can get computers from mexico or any other country in the world. The truth is, Cuba has no money to buy any technology.

As to the materials available only in the USA. Castro should of thought of that before he kicked the USA companies out of CUBA.

I HOPE THE USA LIFTS ITS EMBARGO, so when cuba still countinues to have a 3rd world economy everyone cant blame the USA. And the USA is not the only country in the world, Europen nation also have good technology.
And where do you all think the USA got all that technology from?

Monty Cantsin

30th December 2003, 23:19

http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/mar...17/msg00412.htm

Great article have a read.

I haven’t read any of these posts but Cuba is not communist because they have privet property. Also the idea of Cuba moving towards capitalism is not true there is more over seas investment by companies but there joint venture with the state. One more thing there also always been privet enterprise its just controlled to how large the business can be and heavily taxed.

Monty Cantsin

30th December 2003, 23:23

for some reason that link doesnt want to work when i posted it in this thread, but i have in one other so have a look at this thread frist post has got that link http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...=ST&f=8&t=20028 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=8&t=20028)

el_profe

30th December 2003, 23:31

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 12:19 AM
http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/mar...17/msg00412.htm

Great article have a read.

I haven’t read any of these posts but Cuba is not communist because they have privet property. Also the idea of Cuba moving towards capitalism is not true there is more over seas investment by companies but there joint venture with the state. One more thing there also always been privet enterprise its just controlled to how large the business can be and heavily taxed.
I didnt say CUba was moving towards capitalism, i said china.
And I said Cuba is totalitarian.

Monty Cantsin

30th December 2003, 23:35

el_profe it wasnt you that i read that from. and calling cuba totalitarian is going a bit far. sure its Authoritarian.

el_profe

31st December 2003, 00:31

OMG. In this book im reading, I just read how writers who wrote against castro are/ and where treated.

One writer(Virgilio Pinera) was sent to prison for being gay :o
another writer(Armando Valladares) spent 22 years in jail
Ángel Cuadra spent 15 years in jail.
These and others where mentioned in the book, but the story that amazed me the most was the on of Maria Elena Cruz Varela, this is what happened to her:
"the persecution of Maria Elena Cruz Varela, a prize-winning poet who in 1991 organized a human rights organization called Alternative Criteria. Following this act of dissent, she was assaulted in her Havana apartment by a government-sponsored vigilante group. After being dragged by her hair down several flights of stairs, Ms. Cruz Varela was taken outside of her apartment building and again beaten in front of a cheering mob, which included a group of schoolchildren trucked in for the occasion. She was then forced to eat papers containing her writings before being arrested and imprisoned"
got that from http://www.cubainfolinks.net/Articles/protested.htm

Amazing how most of you support Castro.

Here is another link, its in spanish but you can see the picture of other writers that had to flee Cuba or where exiled for being "counterrevolutionary."
In the article it talks about Raul Rivero, recently sent to 20 years of prison in Cuba for writing against castro.
http://www.clubcultura.com/clubliteratura/...resentacion.htm (http://www.clubcultura.com/clubliteratura/censurados/presentacion.htm)

I know Im going to get this response: "They where probably incarcerated because they where in gov. or pro batistas"
or some dumb answer like that. But I know most of these where imprisoned a long time after Batista was in power.

LuZhiming

31st December 2003, 00:35

Whre did all that technology the USA has come from?? it came from a more free-market style economy, not from socialism.

Now you're turning this into an ideological arguement. Which is moronic. Ideologies can be horrible or great, it depends what one does with them. And the U.S. mainly got rich from slavery and foreign adventures.

If Castro depended so much on the USA why did he kick th USA compnaies out,

Cuba wasn't earning anything from this land the U.S. had, it was weakenign them and their resources. The U.S. probably owned 50% or more of Cuba's products, and that money was going to rich U.S. businesses and rich Cuban collaborators. Those had to be gotten rid of eventually. But it will come with a price, and recovery isn't easy.

You say those companies stole the land from cuba??? No they bought it, whoever was in charge at the time the company was built in Cuba they paid that gov. So no Castro did not have a right to kick them out.

The very fact that this arguement can be presented as acceptable is discusting. Yeah let's see, the U.S. attacked the Spanish, who were almost driven out by Cuban rebels, gave no power to the Cuban rebels, set up a puppet government, and then with the 'legal' approval of the puppet government they moved in businesses and bought land from a poor country which made them richer, and Cubans poorer. And when Cuba elected a leftist leader who wasn't a puppet, the U.S. overthrew him and later put Cuba under a protectorate! The U.S. people in that country were gangsters. It is absurd to say that it was legal for the U.S. to intervene, and have approval from a puppet government, to purchase land from a poor country.

Now is it those companies fault that the money they paid was badly managed by the gov.? no.

It is the U.S.' fault considering the Cuban governments were puppets.

And you didnt answer my question, Dont you think if the USA lifts its embargo, USA companies are going to try to make a deal with Castro to put factories (like nike does in china) and pay workers very little money?
That would create the exploitation you all hate.
In fact that exploitation can already be seen in the tourist hotels in cuba and the resorts. Where European companies exploit the workers by paying them very little money.

And stopping that is as simple as Castro saying "no factories." Many of those hotels wouldn't have to be run by Europeans if it wasn't for the U.S.' devastation of Cuba.

Youre link showed what many of the people on the forum deny, they say castro does not opress the cuban people.
"Civil Liberties

Of great concern to the delegation was the question of civil liberties. At every meeting, delegation members raised questions about legislation that criminalized dissent and independent reporting; restrictions on freedom of movement and freedom of assembly; strict controls on labor rights; police abuses; the imprisonment of political opponents; and harsh prison conditions, particularly for political prisoners. These concerns were never satisfactorily addressed, although the recent release of a number of political prisoners and the government's response to the Pope's call for greater individual freedoms had clearly positive impacts."

Political prisoners :o :o

That information is pretty easy to find. You can find on any Human Rights website. The cruel treatment of dissidents is something I criticize Castro for.

LOL. They cant import computers from the USA. Last time i check they can get computers from mexico or any other country in the world. The truth is, Cuba has no money to buy any technology.

Firstly, Mexican computers are about 20-30% more expensive. And are Mexican computers much better than a Windows 95? Again, the U.S. is technologically advanced.

As to the materials available only in the USA. Castro should of thought of that before he kicked the USA companies out of CUBA.

That's absurd, there was nothing forcing the U.S. to create that embargo or have those businesses there. Those businesses were made possible by a puppet government after all.

I HOPE THE USA LIFTS ITS EMBARGO, so when cuba still countinues to have a 3rd world economy everyone cant blame the USA. And the USA is not the only country in the world, Europen nation also have good technology.
And where do you all think the USA got all that technology from?

Hmm, I don't know, I wonder how the richest country in the world could have such greater technology? :blink:

Deniz Gezmis

31st December 2003, 00:36

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 01:31 AM
another writer(Armando Valladares) spent 22 years in jail
Ángel Cuadra spent 15 years in jail.
These and others where mentioned in the book, but the story that amazed me the most was the on of Maria Elena Cruz Varela, this is what happened to her:
"the persecution of Maria Elena Cruz Varela, a prize-winning poet who in 1991 organized a human rights organization called Alternative Criteria. Following this act of dissent, she was assaulted in her Havana apartment by a government-sponsored vigilante group. After being dragged by her hair down several flights of stairs, Ms. Cruz Varela was taken outside of her apartment building and again beaten in front of a cheering mob, which included a group of schoolchildren trucked in for the occasion. She was then forced to eat papers containing her writings before being arrested and imprisoned"
got that from http://www.cubainfolinks.net/Articles/protested.htm
So? I bet that's only half of the story and that it's filled with lies. Also, Do you have any information on her "writings".

LuZhiming

31st December 2003, 00:39

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 01:36 AM
So? I bet that's only half of the story and that it's filled with lies. Also, Do you have any information on her "writings".
Yeah, that source he has is blatantly anti-Castro and Pro-U.S.

Bolshevika

31st December 2003, 05:52

"the persecution of Maria Elena Cruz Varela, a prize-winning poet who in 1991 organized a human rights organization called Alternative Criteria. Following this act of dissent, she was assaulted in her Havana apartment by a government-sponsored vigilante group. After being dragged by her hair down several flights of stairs, Ms. Cruz Varela was taken outside of her apartment building and again beaten in front of a cheering mob, which included a group of schoolchildren trucked in for the occasion. She was then forced to eat papers containing her writings before being arrested and imprisoned"

Hey these are some clever ideas, worth noting in fact.

However note the word vigilante, as in, not government related, but rather citizens taking measuires into their own hands. It is an oxymoron to be a 'government sponsored vigilante', there is definetly some distortion going on.

el_profe

31st December 2003, 06:04

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 01:35 AM

You say those companies stole the land from cuba??? No they bought it, whoever was in charge at the time the company was built in Cuba they paid that gov. So no Castro did not have a right to kick them out.

The very fact that this arguement can be presented as acceptable is discusting. Yeah let's see, the U.S. attacked the Spanish, who were almost driven out by Cuban rebels, gave no power to the Cuban rebels, set up a puppet government, and then with the 'legal' approval of the puppet government they moved in businesses and bought land from a poor country which made them richer, and Cubans poorer. And when Cuba elected a leftist leader who wasn't a puppet, the U.S. overthrew him and later put Cuba under a protectorate! The U.S. people in that country were gangsters. It is absurd to say that it was legal for the U.S. to intervene, and have approval from a puppet government, to purchase land from a poor country.

Thanks you mentioned they bought it their, thanks for proving my point.
And why didnt castro try to charge them money or tax them instead of kicking them out and then wantingto trade with them.

That information is pretty easy to find. You can find on any Human Rights website. The cruel treatment of dissidents is something I criticize Castro for.
youre the first one on this board to criticize him for that. Or even acknowledge that this has happened.

Firstly, Mexican computers are about 20-30% more expensive. And are Mexican computers much better than a Windows 95? Again, the U.S. is technologically advanced.
Obviously mexicans dont make computers and if they do they arent that good.
I was talking about clones which are very inexpensive they can order them from mexico but mexico orders the computer pieces from the USA. And they can also get it from any of the other countrie, like great britain , france...
The thing is Cuba doesnt have money to buy the computers. You blame the USA for all of cubas problems, which is just bs.

That's absurd, there was nothing forcing the U.S. to create that embargo or have those businesses there. Those businesses were made possible by a puppet government after all.
So, why didtn he try to tax them or something?? he just kicked them out?
Which he had no right to do.

Hmm, I don't know, I wonder how the richest country in the world could have such greater technology? :blink:
Why dod you think they are the richest country? the fact that they are the richest country is because they where the most capitalist economy.
AND DONT USE THE "they where rich because they where exploiting people and they had slaves"
MANY MANY other countries where exploiting people and many other countries had slaves.
Look at spain the stole all of the gold from Latin america and had all the control over latin america, and why didnt they become the richest country? France also had colonies? so did the UK.

And their are other rich countries with very good technology.

el_profe

31st December 2003, 06:19

Death: you just do not choose to see the facts. Just like with stalin.

So? I bet that's only half of the story and that it's filled with lies. Also, Do you have any information on her "writings".
I dont know, maybe the fact that she is alive has something to do with that story. How about the other 3 people in the picture that where in prison?? They are all alive and can tell you that they where political prisoners.

LuZhiming: weird that you start denying or quesitoning this when on your prevoius post you say that you criticize for castro, for the politcal prisoners. Which these writers are.

Yeah, that source he has is blatantly anti-Castro and Pro-U.S.
Probabaly more anti castro because I think the owners of the site escaped cuba.
The source, well she is still alive so you can try to contact her and ask her yourself.

Bolshevika:

Hey these are some clever ideas, worth noting in fact.

However note the word vigilante, as in, not government related, but rather citizens taking measuires into their own hands. It is an oxymoron to be a 'government sponsored vigilante', there is definetly some distortion going on.
they are citicenzs paid by the gov. to spy on people to see if who are anti-castro. I thought you knew this happened. Asked any of the 1.5 million cubans in the USA if these groups existed and where sponsored by the gov.

This is another example of how much you people idolize a socialist leader that you deny that those leader ever did something wrong.

And why do you all hate the people that have escaped cuba? what have they done, and dont use the they where from rich families or their capitalist cause many of them have fled way after the batista days ended.

LuZhiming

31st December 2003, 06:39

Thanks you mentioned they bought it their, thanks for proving my point.

Your point is a very weak one, and you are quite aware of that. Thus explaining the clear avoidance on your part. Countries have to allow someone to buy land from them, and a puppet government allowing that isn't exactly legal.

And why didnt castro try to charge them money or tax them instead of kicking them out and then wantingto trade with them.

Are you serious? Hmm, I don't know, maybe because they were courrupt gangsters. :unsure:

Obviously mexicans dont make computers and if they do they arent that good.
I was talking about clones which are very inexpensive they can order them from mexico but mexico orders the computer pieces from the USA. And they can also get it from any of the other countrie, like great britain , france...
The thing is Cuba doesnt have money to buy the computers. You blame the USA for all of cubas problems, which is just bs.

Don't be ridicolous, if Cuba had the money to fund guerilla movements, do you not think it could buy computers? <_< Look, this is just one part of the article you have singled out, because you think you might have an arguement against it. Even if that part was wrong, it wouldn't prove that Cuba has no money, just that they for some reason don't buy enough computers.

So, why didtn he try to tax them or something?? he just kicked them out?

Typically, nationalists don't let other nations keep their land. It doesn't make sense. Taxing is far beyond the point, the ownership of that land and the funds to it brought large limits upon Cuba.

Which he had no right to do.

Right, and the U.S. had a right to install a puppet government? :rolleyes:

Why dod you think they are the richest country? the fact that they are the richest country is because they where the most capitalist economy.

In a way that is sort of true. There foreign adventures were to expand capital, and that did indeed make them rich. You can call it Capitalist Thievery.

AND DONT USE THE "they where rich because they where exploiting people and they had slaves"
MANY MANY other countries where exploiting people and many other countries had slaves.

I merely said that that was a part of it, which it was.

Look at spain the stole all of the gold from Latin america and had all the control over latin america, and why didnt they become the richest country? France also had colonies? so did the UK.

Spain did not use the same methods as the U.S. Spain did not move its businesses in, and it also was not as good as the United States in installing rulers that could take care of the "Great Beast." And on the matter of the UK, they did become extremely rich from their foreign adventures.

And their are other rich countries with very good technology.

Japan certainly, but most countries get their stuff from Japan or the U.S.

Maynard

31st December 2003, 08:32

does it provide health care for all its people, ae their hostipals better than private hospitals?

Is plastic surgery covered in their health care? That's a real question, anyone know that.

I doubt it. I personally would prefer that everyone had basic health care rather than a vain few trying to make themselves more "attractive" taking up resources which I believe should go to more worthy causes. It's universal health care, I don't believe they would be many private hospitals. They perhaps may not be as "good" but it's available to everyone for free.

also in a poll somoene on this site gave me, to show me that cubans do like castro, the poll said that cuban's major conserne was tehir food shortages.

That maybe true, I read that somewhere as well but it's important to add that most Cubans do not blame Castro for that problem, rather the USA blockade. Whether you agree or not, that is what the majority of the "oppressed" Cubans to believe. Everyone hopes that the food shortages can stop, I think lifting the embargo would help a great deal in that direction.

How many go hungry in america?Not many if your looking at the number in %.
2 million are homeless. That is a lot in my mind at least, especially for the richest country in the world.

In mexico I know 70% 70 million of mexicans live in extreme poverty, extreme means you live in a shack with no running water and probably no electricity. the number in millions and especially in % is much less in the USA.

That was up from 30 million since NAFTA was signed. The benefits of free trade indeed. That's a rather "sloppy" definition of extreme poverty though but the poverty in Mexico is for many reasons. Explain how Mexicans have benefited from NAFTA ? Or Free Trade ? Or having multinational companies entering there country ?

Ans what country has been more "capitalist" in their history? the USA.

That could be but that means there companies are also in a position to employ 3rd or 2nd world workers under rather horrible conditions and pay rather low wages. How will that benefit anyone in the long run rather than the multinational countries ?

Slavery, sexism and Racism played big parts in this history , should we be promoting them as a source of economic growth ?

I THINK MOST OF YOU REALLY ARE JUST DEMOCRATS WHO HATE BUSH ALOT, WHY DOESNT ANYONE BRING UP THE BOMBINGS MADE BY CLINTON, OR THE FACT THAT THEY OCCUPIED WITH THEIR ARMY KOSOVO? I DONT SEE MANY OF YOU *****ING ABOUT THAT, OR THE FACT THAT CLINTON BOMBED A ASPIRIN FACTORY IN SUDAN, why dont any of you ever mention that, you dont care about african people? why does no one talk about the bombing of iraq during the clinton era?
I will fully condem him to the point where I will say Clinton was or is no better than Bush. I don't think we are putting on a "charade" as Democrats, we are not that clever. Those incidents have been brought up many times before from what I read. Clinton was an imperialist, a liar, a war mongerer. To say we don't care about African people is entirely false, whether you like to think of it like it or not. Most here, have these beliefs so that mankind can be bettered. It's not out of hatred that I have my beliefs but my belief that a better world is possible.
Clinton was very much a conservative, why he is not as "hated" as much as Bush is probably due to his image.
Do you condemn these actions and the latest war ?
Do you support Bush ?

I said yes to that question, does it provide good healthacare?

Everyone gets healthcare, it is regarded as the best in Latin America by far . So, I would say yes. If anyone gets sick and is looked after, I would say it's good. Sure, it can improve as all things can but comparatively it is excellent. Can you recognise that ?

Well that is your problem, you just want to hate the biggest(in power) o****ry in the world mostly because your jealous, so many people in your country go to the USA, why is that? why dont they try to go south instead of going north?

Is it so hard to believe not everyone is jealous ? A lot of people here are American are they jealous of themselves ? Many live in countries with better "living conditions" Norway, Australia, Canada etc. They go there probably to improve there living conditions, most likely because of the effects of capitalism are having on there own nation.

But if his own daughter does not like him then many others dont like him either.

What does that even mean ? Of course some people if not a lot like him. What does that prove ? A lot of people hate Bush as well, does that fact alone make him an unfit leader ? Of course not.

USUALLY HATE FOR THE USA GOES HAND IN HAND with hatred of the jews
No one here , I would hope "hates" a large land mass in a ocean. Communism is for the liberation of all mankind anywhere, there are no distinctions made.

And you will say they where expoiting, well what the hell do you think they will do if the embargo is lifted
The lifting of the embargo would mean , Cuba could trade Sugar for Machinery, it wouldn't mean that companies could come in whenever they want and do whatever they want, because if it did mean that, what would be stopping the United States from doing it ?

I didnt say all muslims, I said most if not all muslims hate jews
That's just slander if you have not got proof. Most Christians hate Muslims, is that true ? Are you saying it's true because of fact or your impression that you get from the news media ? Just because people may not agree with Israel's policies or America's policies, that doesn't mean they necessary "hate Jews" or "Hate Americans". Do you hate Cubans because you disagree with there governments policies ?

So, why didtn he try to tax them or something?? he just kicked them out?
Which he had no right to do.

He had a "right" to do it, because he saw it as unjust for it to happen. Slave owners owned slaves as well, was there no right to "free" them because they had been purchased under former governments ?

el_profe

31st December 2003, 09:58

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 07:39 AM
Don't be ridicolous, if Cuba had the money to fund guerilla movements, do you not think it could buy computers? <_< Look, this is just one part of the article you have singled out, because you think you might have an arguement against it. Even if that part was wrong, it wouldn't prove that Cuba has no money, just that they for some reason don't buy enough computers.

And you make a great point about Cuba funding guerilla movements. What the hell was Castro doing, wasting the people's money on funding guerilla movements all across latin america, that's the cuban's money, he easily could of used it to buy better technology., or for medical things.

[b]Are you serious? Hmm, I don't know, maybe because they were courrupt gangsters. :unsure:

You mean the mob, right. They had only casinos in Cuba, and those casinos brought tourism to cuba.
The other compnaies where not gangsters.

You keep on mentioning this puppet gov. ? how do you know it was a puppet gov.? I dont see a puppet gov. In germany or in Japan, both occupied by the USA.

And the USA did help Cuba get its independence, and PR was given to the states as a commonwealth not CUBA.

Typically, nationalists don't let other nations keep their land. It doesn't make sense. Taxing is far beyond the point, the ownership of that land and the funds to it brought large limits upon Cuba.

With taxes they are paying, sort of renting that land. Why arent you *****ing about nike and other shoe factories in vietnam and in China?
Th nation keep their land? thats moronic, they, or whoever owns the land has the right to sell it to whoever they want to.

Spain did not use the same methods as the U.S. Spain did not move its businesses in, and it also was not as good as the United States in installing rulers that could take care of the "Great Beast." And on the matter of the UK, they did become extremely rich from their foreign adventures.
NO, Spain installed spanish leaders all over latin america which paid taxes to spain. Spain owned most of latin america, so the leaders they installed worked for the spanish gov.

Danton

31st December 2003, 11:01

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 10:58 AM
You mean the mob, right. They had only casinos in Cuba, and those casinos brought tourism to cuba.

Organized crime was rampant in pre-revolution Cuba, the mob owned not only casino's but hotels, clubs/brothels, they ran protection rackets and controlled the export of drugs, they had corrupt officials in their pay from the police upwards... They brought the kind of tourism no country needs...

Bad Grrrl Agro

31st December 2003, 17:34

I WENT TO CUBA AND IT SEEMED PRETTY SOCIALISTIC TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Deniz Gezmis

31st December 2003, 17:38

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 06:34 PM
I WENT TO CUBA AND IT SEEMED PRETTY SOCIALISTIC TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://cheaten.octeq.com/forum/duceohyeah.jpg

Rastaman

31st December 2003, 18:10

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 12:08 AM
So no Castro did not have a right to kick them out.

well actually he did..cuba has a communist government so they have the right to take and from any not state owned company.. china can do the same but they won't because its helping their economy..

LuZhiming

1st January 2004, 03:22

Originally posted by el_profe+Dec 31 2003, 10:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Dec 31 2003, 10:58 AM)And you make a great point about Cuba funding guerilla movements. What the hell was Castro doing, wasting the people's money on funding guerilla movements all across latin america, that's the cuban's money, he easily could of used it to buy better technology., or for medical things.

That is only your opinion that it was a waste. The guerilla movements he was funding were ones that were fighting against the most brutal elements in that region. And Cuba's medical technology is spectacular for any Third World country.

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 10:58 AM
You mean the mob, right. They had only casinos in Cuba, and those casinos brought tourism to cuba.
The other compnaies where not gangsters.

Yes they were. They got their businesses down there through war, that's thuggery at best.

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 10:58 AM
You keep on mentioning this puppet gov. ? how do you know it was a puppet gov.? I dont see a puppet gov. In germany or in Japan, both occupied by the USA.

What? Are you honestly ignorant enough to argue that it wasn't a puppet government?! Germany? West Germany had absolutely no control of its own affairs for years, and Japan was run by a puppet Emperor, a guy that was responsible for many of the things that happened in WW2! This is the most absurd arguement that I have ever heard. Congratulations, you are the first person I have debated with, that actually argued that the Cuban governments weren't puppets. And it's merely a coincidence that Cuba's only leftist President (Before Castro) was attacked by the U.S.

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 10:58 AM
And the USA did help Cuba get its independence, and PR was given to the states as a commonwealth not CUBA.

Hahahaha, Cuban rebels had almost driven the Spanish out of Cuba. And what happened to those rebels' position after the U.S. intervened? Nothing! They were the same poor peasents they were before, because the U.S. war was a war to keep Cuba from liberating itself, just like in the Philipines.

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 10:58 AM
With taxes they are paying, sort of renting that land.

Sort of? Maybe Cuba wanted to use that land for Cuba genius. Can you not comprehend that, or are you trying to avoid it so as to not weaken your arguement?

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 10:58 AM
Why arent you *****ing about nike and other shoe factories in vietnam and in China?

Is this a serious question? Hmm, I don't know, those businesses weren't put in by taking over the country and putting up a puppet government. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 10:58 AM
Th nation keep their land? thats moronic, they, or whoever owns the land has the right to sell it to whoever they want to.

Yeah right, if you were in a poor country that was taken over, I doubt you would like to see foreign businesses occupy your land under the approval of a government that cares nothing about you and is merely a collaborator with the imperialist bastards. "Their land" how did they get, "their land?" Would you call France "Hitler's land" after he captured it, and whine about people fighting back? Would you be mad at Stalin looting "his land," or would you be outraged? Please.

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 10:58 AM
NO, Spain installed spanish leaders all over latin america which paid taxes to spain. Spain owned most of latin america, so the leaders they installed worked for the spanish gov.

So??? Where is the part about moving businesses in? It's not there. The difference is clear, but your thinking pattern apparently isn't. Taxes do not work nearly as well as setting up businesses on the land itself.

[email protected] 31 2003, 07:10 PM
well actually he did..cuba has a communist government so they have the right to take and from any not state owned company.. china can do the same but they won't because its helping their economy..

You are mistaken. Cuba was not socialist when Castro kicked those bastards out.

el_profe

1st January 2004, 06:56

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 04:22 AM
That is only your opinion that it was a waste. The guerilla movements he was funding were ones that were fighting against the most brutal elements in that region. And Cuba's medical technology is spectacular for any Third World country.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. LOL. You mean he was funding brutal terrorist guerillas, right? Cuase that is what he was doing. In most countries(in latin america) where guerillas started the military was not killing people, the killings started when the guerillas started using those methods, so the militaries started using the same tactics. And both sides killed civilians. And if your going to justify what castro supported then you must of supported the war on Iraq because the USA was removing a brutal dictator
Cuba already had more doctors per-capita in Latina merica in 1950. so they already had medical technology and where well known for their medical technology before Castro.

Yes they were. They got their businesses down there through war, that's thuggery at best.
BS. And what about all the other American companies in Latin America, did they also get them thru war?, no. And they didtn get them by installing puppet gov., the USA did help install govs during Latin america, during the cold war.

What? Are you honestly ignorant enough to argue that it wasn't a puppet government?! Germany? West Germany had absolutely no control of its own affairs for years, and Japan was run by a puppet Emperor, a guy that was responsible for many of the things that happened in WW2! This is the most absurd arguement that I have ever heard. Congratulations, you are the first person I have debated with, that actually argued that the Cuban governments weren't puppets. And it's merely a coincidence that Cuba's only leftist President (Before Castro) was attacked by the U.S.

For about the first 5 years in germany and I think it was 7 maybe less for japan. A puppet Emperor? that was one of the conditions of the surrender, japan wanted to keep their emperor. So be sure to know your history about the emperor. And the EMPEROR was heavily persuaded by militaries that didnt want a surrender, in the end he wanted to surrender.
And The USa installed puppet gov. in 1898, did they keep putting a puppet gov, every 4 years or 6 years?
Look at saddam he was backed by the USA until he invaded kuwait.

Hahahaha, Cuban rebels had almost driven the Spanish out of Cuba. And what happened to those rebels' position after the U.S. intervened? Nothing! They were the same poor peasents they were before, because the U.S. war was a war to keep Cuba from liberating itself, just like in the Philipines.

So the bad decisions that those gov,s made had nothing to do with cuba still being a 3rd world country?
And what about the Lating American countries that got their independence without help from the USA in the early 1800's. Who do you blame for those countries being poor in 1850, and then in 1870 and then in 1890 and so on. Although their where some exceptions Argentina was the richest country In latin america and one of the richest in the world about till 1940/ 50.

Sort of? Maybe Cuba wanted to use that land for Cuba genius. Can you not comprehend that, or are you trying to avoid it so as to not weaken your arguement?
Cuba wanted to use their land no the revolutionaries that took over the gov. wanted that land , what about the cubans that worked in that land? they lost a job and then they got it back with a crappier salary.
And how do you justify the doctors, lawyers, dentist that where wealthy or in high middle class that lost their land or home?Who where they oppresing?

Yeah right, if you were in a poor country that was taken over, I doubt you would like to see foreign businesses occupy your land under the approval of a government that cares nothing about you and is merely a collaborator with the imperialist bastards. "Their land" how did they get, "their land?" Would you call France "Hitler's land" after he captured it, and whine about people fighting back? Would you be mad at Stalin looting "his land," or would you be outraged? Please.

So USA has can kick out the honda factories even though they baught the land and placed a japanese car factory their?

So??? Where is the part about moving businesses in? It's not there. The difference is clear, but your thinking pattern apparently isn't. Taxes do not work nearly as well as setting up businesses on the land itself.
Well the spanish conquerers that enslaved the indians probably had bussinesses when the colonies started to form. And look at all the gold they took, how much was that worth I bet billions worth of gold in today's world. And they sold the gold for money and the american factories in Cuba also made money so both gold and the factories brought the same thing, money..

Bolshevika

1st January 2004, 07:06

El Profe: There is a tiny difference between giving a group of guerrillas money to fight for their cause and taking a 500 billion dollar army and start an unwanted genocide war.

If you support a revolution, you support the will of the people, because revolutions need support of the people to suceed. If you invade another country without being provoked, you are forcing foreign will on a people.

If the Iraqis really "wanted us" there why the fuck do they attack the American death squads every chance they get?

LuZhiming

1st January 2004, 10:23

HAHAHAHAHAHA. LOL. You mean he was funding brutal terrorist guerillas, right? Cuase that is what he was doing. In most countries(in latin america) where guerillas started the military was not killing people, the killings started when the guerillas started using those methods, so the militaries started using the same tactics. And both sides killed civilians.

That is simply untrue. Was Augusto Pinochet a nice guy? Was the Salvadoran military? Were Guatemala's many dictators? What about the racist South African military in Angola? You are wrong and you know it. Most of the Salvadoran military was trained by the U.S., and that is why they were extremely brutal. They killed people long before the guerillas. But when the guerillas came in revolt, the military had the justification to do whatever they wanted, and they were completely out of control. They massacred, tortured, and raped tens of thousands. Even Pro-U.S. sources acknowledge this. The guerillas never targeted civillians. The guerillas never in any way threatened a Human Rights group, while El Salvador had one in jail where they were subjected to all sorts of torture. The guerillas never murdered people for speaking out against them. And you know what? Before that, the regime of José Napoleón Duarte was a brutal military junta as well. The same is certainly true in Guatemala, which similar to both Nicaragua under Somoza and El Salvador which I mentioned above, were U.S. trained brutal regimes that regularly used death squads, who brutally murdered hundreds of thousands in the case of Guatemala. Augusto Pinochet, I think even you know full well of his atrocities. Angola, it was bluntly said by CIA officers (for some reason) that Cuban troops did not enter until the terrorist South African troops intervened in Angola. And virtually everyone but the U.S. and its collaborators in that war were on the side of Cuba and the MPLA. In every case, one can easily justify Castro's actions.

And if your going to justify what castro supported then you must of supported the war on Iraq because the USA was removing a brutal dictator

Don't even go there. Cuba hasn't tried to set up a military base or a puppet regime in any of its interventions, it doesn't drop indiscriminate bombs, and it wasn't a former collaborator with any of the people it attacked.

Cuba already had more doctors per-capita in Latina merica in 1950. so they already had medical technology and where well known for their medical technology before Castro.

Are you really using this arguement? Are you denying the vast improvements? Most of the poor in pre-Castro Cuba had no knowledge or subjection to any of those medical supplies, and you can't deny that Castro has opened up many medical research facilities and schools.

BS. And what about all the other American companies in Latin America, did they also get them thru war?, no. And they didtn get them by installing puppet gov., the USA did help install govs during Latin america, during the cold war.

Oh please, in Latin America, Central America, and the Carribean, the U.S. has set up numerous collaborators who were often brutal murderers in that region. There have been 14 interventions in Nicaragua, a protectorate, the use of fighters to intervene in other countries, and let's not forget the numerous collaborators including the brutal Somoza family. In Haiti there were 3 interventions, with a protectorate and 19 year occupation, including a backing of the brutal "Papa Doc" and then a betrayal of him with possibly others. In Chile there were 2 interventions, including the backing of the murderous Augusto Pinochet.(This doesn't the attempts to undermine Salvador Allende's elections.) In Panama there were 10 interventions, constant control of the Panama Canal and backing of numerous puppet regimes and dictators. In Guatemala there were at least 4 interventions, training of tens of thousands (Possibly more?) of later to be Human Rights violators, and of course the backing of numerous brutal regimes. In Honduras there were 6 interventions, the use of military bases for operations in other countries, and as usual, backing of brutal regimes.

And I could go on. There were many more interventions in Cuba, Mexico, Argentina, Bolivia, Grenada, El Salvador, Puerto Rico, Costa Rica, Uruguay, Brazil, Colombia, etc. How anyone could question the idea that the U.S. businesses got in through military intervention is completely beyond me.

For about the first 5 years in germany and I think it was 7 maybe less for japan. A puppet Emperor? that was one of the conditions of the surrender, japan wanted to keep their emperor. So be sure to know your history about the emperor.

Oh I'm sorry, the U.S. moved in many businesses, and helped keep a puppet Emperor in power, but the people of course, supposedly wanted that Emperor. ( :lol: As a puppet?)

And the EMPEROR was heavily persuaded by militaries that didnt want a surrender, in the end he wanted to surrender.
And The USa installed puppet gov. in 1898, did they keep putting a puppet gov, every 4 years or 6 years?

The governments were puppets. :rolleyes: Apparently, you aren't aware of U.S. intervention in Cuban elections.

Look at saddam he was backed by the USA until he invaded kuwait.

Saddam was by no means a puppet though. And the U.S.' backing of him was treachorous. Even during the Iran/Iraq War, when they were giving him Weapons of Mass Destruction, they began secretly giving weapons to Iran to increase casualties on both sides. (After they had recommend Saddam to invade Iran.) And they lured Saddam Hussein into Kuwait by telling him they had no interests in it, when he asked what they thought about him invading it. If you want to talk about U.S. puppets in the Middle East, there is the Shah of Iran who I despise with a passion.

So the bad decisions that those gov,s made had nothing to do with cuba still being a 3rd world country?

Sorry, I don't understand your question or who "those govs" are, would you clarify?

And what about the Lating American countries that got their independence without help from the USA in the early 1800's. Who do you blame for those countries being poor in 1850, and then in 1870 and then in 1890 and so on. Although their where some exceptions Argentina was the richest country In latin america and one of the richest in the world about till 1940/ 50.

It would be kind of you to give specific examples.

Cuba wanted to use their land no the revolutionaries that took over the gov. wanted that land , what about the cubans that worked in that land? they lost a job and then they got it back with a crappier salary.

There were few Cubans who worked in those lands, and the ones that were, were white collaborators that later fled with their riches from Cuba. And even that was a rare case, most of these businesses had U.S. workers. And you are quite mistaken on the matter of the salary, that's how foreign businesses are, as you mentioned earlier, they purposely pay foreigners crappy salaries because they can get away with it.

And how do you justify the doctors, lawyers, dentist that where wealthy or in high middle class that lost their land or home?Who where they oppresing?

They didn't. Cuba never went on a venture driving large amounts of people out of their homes. Especially middle class.

So USA has can kick out the honda factories even though they baught the land and placed a japanese car factory their?

:lol: Have U.S. Presidents ever been Japanese puppets? And Honda oppressing the masses wouldn't work as an arguement, that's exactly what U.S. businesses do.

I feel like we're going around in circles. <_<

Well the spanish conquerers that enslaved the indians probably had bussinesses when the colonies started to form. And look at all the gold they took, how much was that worth I bet billions worth of gold in today's world. And they sold the gold for money and the american factories in Cuba also made money so both gold and the factories brought the same thing, money..

The Spanish didn't handle their own economy very well, especially on the matter of gold, (duh) and the Spanish were not able to expand their capital as sucessfully as the U.S. They just went in, attacked, made a quick looting, and things went downhill form there.

el_profe

1st January 2004, 16:20

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 08:06 AM

If you support a revolution, you support the will of the people, because revolutions need support of the people to suceed. If you invade another country without being provoked, you are forcing foreign will on a people.

Except the revolutions you talk about where not supported by the majority of the people.If they where supported by the majority they would of succeded.

Deniz Gezmis

1st January 2004, 16:22

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 05:20 PM
Except the revolutions you talk about where not supported by the majority of the people.If they where supported by the majority they would of succeded.
Like Fidel. Ever see the video of the victory parade through Havana on Jan 8th 1961?

Intifada

1st January 2004, 16:24

it seems to me, el profe, that you are fighting a losing argument here as well as elsewhere.

el_profe

1st January 2004, 17:20

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 11:23 AM
That is simply untrue. Was Augusto Pinochet a nice guy? Was the Salvadoran military? Were Guatemala's many dictators? What about the racist South African military in Angola? You are wrong and you know it. Most of the Salvadoran military was trained by the U.S., and that is why they were extremely brutal. They killed people long before the guerillas. But when the guerillas came in revolt, the military had the justification to do whatever they wanted, and they were completely out of control. They massacred, tortured, and raped tens of thousands. Even Pro-U.S. sources acknowledge this. The guerillas never targeted civillians. The guerillas never in any way threatened a Human Rights group, while El Salvador had one in jail where they were subjected to all sorts of torture. The guerillas never murdered people for speaking out against them. And you know what? Before that, the regime of José Napoleón Duarte was a brutal military junta as well. The same is certainly true in Guatemala, which similar to both Nicaragua under Somoza and El Salvador which I mentioned above, were U.S. trained brutal regimes that regularly used death squads, who brutally murdered hundreds of thousands in the case of Guatemala. Augusto Pinochet, I think even you know full well of his atrocities. Angola, it was bluntly said by CIA officers (for some reason) that Cuban troops did not enter until the terrorist South African troops intervened in Angola. And virtually everyone but the U.S. and its collaborators in that war were on the side of Cuba and the MPLA. In every case, one can easily justify Castro's actions.

yes Pinochet was not a nice guy, but the revolution in chile was made against the horrible presidetn allende, who was violating the constitution and totally ruined the economy. Then pinochet eventually got power.
In Guatemala the guerilla started gaining force during the presidency of a civilian president not a military president, since the guerilla started becomoing a real threat the military felt it needed military presidents that is why alot of military president came to power, most of these where elected.
In el salvador first came the guerilla then came the "brutal" military gov. Most of those killings came during the war against the guerilla. AND WHAT ABOUT ALL THE CIVILIANS KILLED BY THE GUERILLAS. They massacred, tortured and raped. In fact they started with the kidnaps and torturing the people they kidnapped.
AND CUBA TRAINED MANY OF THESE TERRORIST GUERILLAS.
Your claim that guerillas never targeted civilians is the biggest BS I ever heard. I know of many civiliand that where killed by the guerillas, even poor people that didnt support their cause where killed.

Oh please, in Latin America, Central America, and the Carribean, the U.S. has set up numerous collaborators who were often brutal murderers in that region. There have been 14 interventions in Nicaragua, a protectorate, the use of fighters to intervene in other countries, and let's not forget the numerous collaborators including the brutal Somoza family. In Haiti there were 3 interventions, with a protectorate and 19 year occupation, including a backing of the brutal "Papa Doc" and then a betrayal of him with possibly others. In Chile there were 2 interventions, including the backing of the murderous Augusto Pinochet.(This doesn't the attempts to undermine Salvador Allende's elections.) In Panama there were 10 interventions, constant control of the Panama Canal and backing of numerous puppet regimes and dictators. In Guatemala there were at least 4 interventions, training of tens of thousands (Possibly more?) of later to be Human Rights violators, and of course the backing of numerous brutal regimes. In Honduras there were 6 interventions, the use of military bases for operations in other countries, and as usual, backing of brutal regimes.
?, that has little to do with the US companies that where in latin america, and what about the US companies that where in Latin America before those interventions? Dont you think those companies like chiquita where in central and south america because of the land and the weather and how its great for farming and plantations and all that?

Oh I'm sorry, the U.S. moved in many businesses, and helped keep a puppet Emperor in power, but the people of course, supposedly wanted that Emperor. ( :lol: As a puppet?)
IT WAS JAPAN's only request they where going to surrender only if the emperor was allowed to stay. What you wanted the USA to drop more A-bombs on Japan?

Sorry, I don't understand your question or who "those govs" are, would you clarify?
Do you blame all of Cuba's problems on the USA. I meant dont you think that those cuban gov's had something to do with the bad decisions that kept their country poor? Did the USA make every desicion for those gov's?

And what about the Lating American countries that got their independence without help from the USA in the early 1800's. Who do you blame for those countries being poor in 1850, and then in 1870 and then in 1890 and so on. Although their where some exceptions Argentina was the richest country In latin america and one of the richest in the world about till 1940/ 50.
It would be kind of you to give specific examples.
:blink: Examples of what, when those countries go independece, Amost all of Latin american countries with the exception of the guyanas (who where property of france and holand) all got their indepndence before 1820. Central america and mexico in 1821, Panama i forgot but they got their independence from Colombia and belize got it from the UK.

They didn't. Cuba never went on a venture driving large amounts of people out of their homes. Especially middle class.
BS. They did seize the money the saving of the rich and middle class and if they had big houses they did lose them.

The Spanish didn't handle their own economy very well, especially on the matter of gold, (duh) and the Spanish were not able to expand their capital as sucessfully as the U.S. They just went in, attacked, made a quick looting, and things went downhill form there.
So youre saying the USA did manage their economy good.?