So-called horrors of "Socialism"

[Comrade #138672]

Why do so many anti-Socialists keep talking about these horrors of "Socialism" when they should know that their Capitalist system is much worse? Among these people are Social-Democrats and sometimes even people calling themselves Socialists.

I've been hearing stuff like:
- Stalin was worse than Hitler, murdered everybody who questioned his ways.
- Mao murdered 20 million people, worse than Hitler too. Also, he caused a lot of poverty.
- Lenin executed many peasants for no reason. He was like a machine and didn't care about people. He wanted Russia and its people to become a machine.
- Cuba is a horrible place. People are fleeing Cuba because of Socialism.
- So you want to live in North-Korea?! Please leave this country and go live there if you like Socialism so much.
- Classes no longer exist, idiot. This is 2012, not 1912. Much has changed and we never had it better. Do you want to return to poverty?
- Etc.

I know some of it isn't completely untrue, but it's being taken out of its context and I try to be extremely careful as these people usually turn very hostile when you keep defending Socialism.

So how do you usually respond to this? Or shouldn't I even bother with these people? I feel like I owe them an explanation, because apparently they are still buying the Capitalist lies about Socialism.

[Comrades Unite!]

Why do so many anti-Socialists keep talking about these horrors of "Socialism" when they should know that their Capitalist system is much worse? Among these people are Social-Democrats and sometimes even people calling themselves Socialists.

I've been hearing stuff like:
- Stalin was worse than Hitler, murdered everybody who questioned his ways.
- Mao murdered 20 million people, worse than Hitler too. Also, he caused a lot of poverty.
- Lenin executed many peasants for no reason. He was like a machine and didn't care about people. He wanted Russia and its people to become a machine.
- Cuba is a horrible place. People are fleeing Cuba because of Socialism.
- So you want to live in North-Korea?! Please leave this country and go live there if you like Socialism so much.
- Classes no longer exist, idiot. This is 2012, not 1912. Much has changed and we never had it better. Do you want to return to poverty?
- Etc.

I know some of it isn't completely untrue, but it's being taken out of its context and I try to be extremely careful as these people usually turn very hostile when you keep defending Socialism.

So how do you usually respond to this? Or shouldn't I even bother with these people? I feel like I owe them an explanation, because apparently they are still buying the Capitalist lies about Socialism.
The top four there are spouted by Pro-Capitalist idiots and so its unlikely any rebuttle will change their minds about anything.

The last one is fucking ridiculous, How do classes not exist anymore?
If classes did not exist then the state would not exist and so the rich would not exist and the poor would not either, but in todays society the class system manifests itself so explicitly that you must be blind or extremely ignorant not to recognize it.

Do not bother responding to these arguments, they made by middle class twats with their little suburban 'dream' shove so far up their hole you would need a pliers to rip it out of them.

[Let's Get Free]

Just tell them the history of capitalism is one of genocide, violence, pillage, colonization, and slavery, far more abhorrent than anything Stalin or Mao could have ever done. The only difference is that the very worst, most blatant atrocities of capitalism happened long enough ago to forget about much of the horror, which isn't the case for Stalin or Mao.

[Q]

Among these people are Social-Democrats and sometimes even people calling themselves Socialists.
Tell me about it. A few years back, when I was still active in the Dutch SP, I regularly had these kind of debates. Once someone from Hungary told me in no uncertain terms he had no interest in going back to a "general state of poverty" that marked, according to him, the socialist system.


I've been hearing stuff like:
- Stalin was worse than Hitler, murdered everybody who questioned his ways.
- Mao murdered 20 million people, worse than Hitler too. Also, he caused a lot of poverty.
Well, Hitler obviously was a socialist too (http://rexcurry.net/socialism-red-flags-socialists1c.jpg), don't you know?


- Classes no longer exist, idiot. This is 2012, not 1912. Much has changed and we never had it better. Do you want to return to poverty?
Well, this in my experience differs from country to country. The Netherlands has indeed for a long time been a declassed society. The UK however has a culture where there is a much stronger (be it deformed) emphasis on classes. And even just across the border in Belgium, the union movement still has a loud voice regarding "class struggle".


I know some of it isn't completely untrue, but it's being taken out of its context and I try to be extremely careful as these people usually turn very hostile when you keep defending Socialism.

So how do you usually respond to this? Or shouldn't I even bother with these people? I feel like I owe them an explanation, because apparently they are still buying the Capitalist lies about Socialism.
I've learned that if they don't want to listen, you can better stop spending time and energy in it and wait for more opportune moments. For example, when there is a strike, there is a very big mood change and people suddenly accept your critique of the system. This was also my (brief) experience during the Occupy movement.

[jookyle]

A lot of the stuff you hear about Stalin,Lenin, and the USSR in general is capitalist propaganda that was taken directly out of 1930's Nazi propaganda against the USSR and the claims of Khruschev in his Secret Speech. Just about everything that's been claimed by this collaboration of propaganda has been disproven by modern researchers who have spent years in Russian archives going over every piece of data from the soviet era that's been made available.

People did flee Cuba because of socialism but it was not the masses who fled. It was the upper class and Batista supporters who fled. There was also a good amount of children kidnapped from Cuba shortly after the revolution that were relocated to the US, this was a joint effort between the US and the Vatican.

Someone who says that about North Korea has no concept of North Korea or socialism. Tell them to read a book.

If a person thinks classes no longer exist you should, idk, ask them if poor and rich people exist.

[ind_com]

Why do so many anti-Socialists keep talking about these horrors of "Socialism" when they should know that their Capitalist system is much worse? Among these people are Social-Democrats and sometimes even people calling themselves Socialists.

I've been hearing stuff like:
- Stalin was worse than Hitler, murdered everybody who questioned his ways.
- Mao murdered 20 million people, worse than Hitler too. Also, he caused a lot of poverty.
- Lenin executed many peasants for no reason. He was like a machine and didn't care about people. He wanted Russia and its people to become a machine.
- Cuba is a horrible place. People are fleeing Cuba because of Socialism.
- So you want to live in North-Korea?! Please leave this country and go live there if you like Socialism so much.
- Classes no longer exist, idiot. This is 2012, not 1912. Much has changed and we never had it better. Do you want to return to poverty?
- Etc.

I know some of it isn't completely untrue, but it's being taken out of its context and I try to be extremely careful as these people usually turn very hostile when you keep defending Socialism.

So how do you usually respond to this? Or shouldn't I even bother with these people? I feel like I owe them an explanation, because apparently they are still buying the Capitalist lies about Socialism.

Just tell them that their heavenly capitalism kills 25,000 each day only of starvation and related causes. That implies that every decade capitalism kills more than their death-statistics of communism.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Why do so many anti-Socialists keep talking about these horrors of "Socialism" when they should know that their Capitalist system is much worse? Among these people are Social-Democrats and sometimes even people calling themselves Socialists.

It's just "muddying the waters". For the most part, capitalist governments have a harder time convincing people that capitalism is great than they do convincing people that capitalism is the best we can do. By arguing that any attempt at any kind of revolution just leads to chaos and "mob rule" and specifically arguing that "idealist" attempts at revolution such as marxism and anarchism will only result in a worse tyranny, they have been more sucessful propaganda than the tradditional "red-baiting" propaganda which most people view as silly and over the top anyway.

The way I try and deal with these arguments if they are coming from someone in a sincere way (like they actually want to debate and discuss, not just try and dismiss my views) is to aviod the moral highground back and forth. Comparing bodycounts is not only apolitical, but rather ghastly and never gives a real sense of what was going on - I mean the civil war killed more people than some other US wars, but the civil war had better results for us than any other US war because a whole chunck of the population won liberation from slavery.


So how do you usually respond to this? Or shouldn't I even bother with these people? I feel like I owe them an explanation, because apparently they are still buying the Capitalist lies about Socialism.If someone says, "I really like the idea of workers running society themselves, but I don't want to live like in the USSR" then it could be worth responding to and having a discussion about what kind of society could actually achive liberation and what it might take to get there. Otherwise, really they have no interest in a different society, so what's the point of arguing unless you have to or want to? It would be like arguing the best route to drive to Disneyland with someone who has no desire to go to Dinseyland - no matter how great your route is, no matter how many cool sights they might see on the drive, they just don't want to go and so no route will ever be justified in their view.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Well, this in my experience differs from country to country. The Netherlands has indeed for a long time been a declassed society.

Eh? Doesn't that mean it would be socialist already?

What's the term 'declassed' mean in this context?

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Eh? Doesn't that mean it would be socialist already?

What's the term 'declassed' mean in this context?

Well, it's not so much that the Netherlands is truly declassed, but more that the contours of the well know classes have been very vague for a while now.
There is no way of saying, this is bourgious and this is proletariat.
We've had a lot of union-work done here and wages are all over the place.
For instance: i am a car-mechanic. At my workplace there is a cleaning-lady.
By traditional vision we both hold a pretty "dirty" occupation for "dumb/unschooled" people. Some (especially rich people) view us as the bottom of society. A job that noone wants to do (like garbagemen and janitors).
Yet i make more money then her (i even heard once that my wages are well above average; the unemployed included).
Yes i've had more education (to academy-level) and yes my work is probably harder if not potentially more dangerous (for the customers)?
So what, i'm not any better then her!
Yet when i tell people what i do some still reply by saying: "Oh yeah...those are needed too..."

So there are still classes, although they're borders are more vague.


Just tell them that their heavenly capitalism kills 25,000 each day only of starvation and related causes. That implies that every decade capitalism kills more than their death-statistics of communism.
You are so right!
I always reply: "Capitalism is better? Think about it. Blood-diamonds, gold-mines, dumped chemicals in third-world countries, exploited foreigner-immigrants, human trafficing... Need i go on? Capitalism has made far more casualties! And it's still going on"
They sometimes don't even believe me!!!!!

I blame the on-going capitalist propaganda.
In school they tought us that: communism == ussr == Stalin == millions dead == no more! Capitalism == freedom == equality == wealth for all!?
Looking back, i'm like WHAT!?

[Blake's Baby]

A better title, I'd argue, for this thread would be 'the horrors of so-called Socialism', because none of the states where the 'horrors' happened were or could be 'socialist states' because such a thing is oxymoronic. 'Socialism' has never existed, so the death tolls can be laid at the door of capitalism.

[RedAtheist]

I've been hearing stuff like:
- Classes no longer exist, idiot. This is 2012, not 1912. Much has changed and we never had it better. Do you want to return to poverty?
- Etc.

If someone claimed this, I'd respond by asking, so you think we live in a communist society? I'd don't think they'd be willing to argue that.

[TheAnswersYes]

Most people don't know what Socialism or Capitalism is, that's why.

[Strannik]

People, you don't need to defend Soviet Union as an abstract concept (or worse, North Korea), or argue who had the "best" number of murdered people to be a socialist in 21st century. Just look at the society we live in right now, murders and countless irrationalities that are actually commited right now and try to think what makes it so awful and how to improve it for all who actually do something positive. You'll start to see socialism in a completely different light. At least that's what happened to me. :)

[Q]

Eh? Doesn't that mean it would be socialist already?

What's the term 'declassed' mean in this context?

Declassed doesn't mean classless. It means that awareness of being a class is extremely low. Most workers don't see themselves as "working class", in fact, most see "arbeidersklasse" as an antiquated term that was linked to heavy industrial workers. There are ways to circumvent this though, for example by using the more modern sounding "werkende klasse", but of course class awareness is a much deeper issue than a mere play on words.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

I've been hearing stuff like:
- Stalin was worse than Hitler, murdered everybody who questioned his ways.
- Mao murdered 20 million people, worse than Hitler too. Also, he caused a lot of poverty.

Well, I for one do not believe that the society that Stalin and Mao ruled over had anything to do with socialism, but the statistics that many pro-capitalist sources bring out are flawed. There were purges, repression, etc. that existed, for sure, but the numbers are usually inflated. Michael Parenti and Mobo Gao are two good sources for information on this (although I do have disagreements with each of the writers on their books, The Battle For China's Past (http://www.amazon.com/The-Battle-Chinas-Past-Revolution/dp/074532780X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350929787&sr=8-1&keywords=mobo+gao) and Blackshirts and Reds. (http://www.amazon.com/Blackshirts-Reds-Rational-Overthrow-Communism/dp/0872863298/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1350929870&sr=1-1&keywords=blackshirts+and+reds))


- Lenin executed many peasants for no reason. He was like a machine and didn't care about people. He wanted Russia and its people to become a machine.

This is generally bogus as well. Many of the policies that Lenin put in place, such as the Red Terror and the creation on the Cheka, were essential to the defense of the proletariat revolution in the material conditions that existed (such as the invasion by 14 countries of Bolshevik Russia, counter-revolutionary sabotage and civil war, etc.)


- Cuba is a horrible place. People are fleeing Cuba because of Socialism.

Again, what is happening in Cuba really has nothing to do with socialism (in my opinion) but even still the propaganda we hear is usually false or based on half truths. In fact, out of all the "actually existing socialist countries" Cuba is the one with the least amount of repression in it's history.


- So you want to live in North-Korea?! Please leave this country and go live there if you like Socialism so much.

Socialism can't exist in one country and not even Stalinists think North Korea is a socialist paradise.


- Classes no longer exist, idiot. This is 2012, not 1912. Much has changed and we never had it better. Do you want to return to poverty?

Yes, classes exist.

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

- Classes no longer exist, idiot. This is 2012, not 1912. Much has changed and we never had it better. Do you want to return to poverty?


Oh yes, and with capitalism we are much better off.
No more poverty, no more hunger, no more...oh no wait...:confused:

[Regicollis]

Declassed doesn't mean classless. It means that awareness of being a class is extremely low. Most workers don't see themselves as "working class", in fact, most see "arbeidersklasse" as an antiquated term that was linked to heavy industrial workers. There are ways to circumvent this though, for example by using the more modern sounding "werkende klasse", but of course class awareness is a much deeper issue than a mere play on words.

The lack of class awareness is also apparent here in Denmark. People associate terms like "class struggle" with something old-fashioned from the 70's and think that working class (da. 'arbejderklassen') means wearing blue overalls to work. I've been using references to "ordinary people" and such to avoid being associated with the dogmatic secterian Marxism of the 70's.
Class awareness here is so low that when the bourgeois media made a campaign against collective bargaining this summer, using some perverted David vs. Goliath rhetoric about a restaurant owner who was being blockaded by the unions for trying to switch to a boss union agreement the majority bought the story about the small business owner against big labour hook line and sinker.
Sometimes I get really depressed about the stupidity that is passed off as common reason around here...