A question about Socialism for those interested..

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

My father and I recently had a discussion regarding socialism, after he had read 'Socialism and Man' written by Che Guevara.

His arguement was that Socialism can never exist because human beings are innately greedy. I countered that saying it is all dependent on the society in which you were brought up in...

Of course anyone coming from a capitalistic society would regard it in such a sense, however if I were raised in a socialist state (the closest being Cuba, or even China...although I do think those are more dictatorial than anything) I would not value the individual and their goals as highly.

What do you all think? Can socialism exist and further be as productive as stated by some of its earliest thinkers like Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc? Just looking for some different viewpoints on the matter.

Thanks.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Yes, I don't think it's human nature to be "greedy" like what we mean when we say greed today. For most of time people worked cooperatively because that was the best tactic when you are a hunter-gatherer or have to make a living out of the earth. For example, you can get a lot more food if you hunt a big meaty animal with a few people than all thoes people hunting induvidual for a few smaller animals. Today in capitalism, it is the collectivisation of labor which has allowed the surplesses of capitalism, but the problem is that only a very few have control of that surpluss.

As for greedyness, even the most greedy people on earth, business people will sacrifice short-term greed for stability and future prosparity. And even when a few greedy induvidual businessmen try and make money off of other business people, then the rest of that class comes out and writes new laws to prevent that detramental greed or punish the corporate crooks to preserve their more general system of greed.

Another way to look at it is that once people can get what they need and most of what they want, they will no longer feel the need to horde things of value. For example, no one moves into an appartment and starts filling bottles with tap water and hordeing all the water because they know that they can always go to the tap and get as much as they need.

The surpluss is the key and if one small poor country had a revolution, I do not know how they would initially be able to create a surpluss on their own. But if a society with a surpluss or a series of countries had revolutions, then maintaining and increasing surpluss would be realativly simple and if everyone had acess to as much training and higher education as they wanted, then people could develop their skills and there would be more engeneerts, more scientists, more doctors, more artists and so on... even if these were side-occupations, people would have more education and free time to develop their talens and this would benifit society in unmesurable ways. Additionally, inefficient aspects of capitalism such as all the resources devoted to promoting one toothpaste over a similar competeing toothpaste through ads and marketing and so on could be used for more beinicial things.

[DeadMan]

I beleive Switzerland is a socialistic like state, not sure. Greed is a by-product of capitalism. If you are brought up in a socialistic or communist state, then you will surely not be greedy. How we are isn't a human flaw, it is a society by-product. We don't get grossed out as easily because gross images are on tv everyday. We, as human being, aren't born with greed or hate or anything negative, we are brought up and giving these threats by our society.

DeadMan.

[cubist]

dead man

greed is not a capitalist only thing. in capitalism it is encouraged. it may happen in communism, as humans have a natural desire to be competitive.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Should the individual outweigh the 'greater good'? What do you think?

[Bradyman]

I've heard the whole arguement a billion times before, that humans are greedy. It's all crap. Grave digger hit the mark on this item. But if that doesn't satisfy you, here's another idea.

People in this society are greedy for one simple thing: money. Money is the underlying concept in a capitalist system, but this has not always been the case. Several hundred years ago, people mainly cared about salvation, about their duty to god. Thus the crusades and what not. They were not greedy for money, but were greedy to do their duty to god. Popes and bishops wanted power because they believed it was for the higher being. Several centuries before, perhaps people were greedy for other things. The motives for greed constantly change.

So, under a communistic society, what will be the motive for greed? Merit. Since there is no goal for money or for divine duty, people will strive for merit since that is the only thing that counts in such a society.

If you believe that people are naturally greedy, this should explain a little bit. But frankly it all comes down to this: "capitalism was not created by the 'natural greed,' but made greed seem natural." Greed is taught to us, it is not instinctive.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 09:58 PM
If you believe that people are naturally greedy, this should explain a little bit. But frankly it all comes down to this: "capitalism was not created by the 'natural greed,' but made greed seem natural." Greed is taught to us, it is not instinctive.
Very well said. On a side note it is interesting that the pundits and bosses and capitalist "intulectuals"/apologists try at every opportunity to paint the problems of capitalism as being "human nature". "There will always be poor people", "competition is human nature", and so on. I once got in a debate with this guy who claimed that "capitalism" never existed and that the economic system we now live in is just a more complicated version of the way wealth has always opperated.

Is this the best argument they can make? "It just is 'cause it is".

We hear these things so often that we start to think things are really just like this because that's the way the world is and always will be.

[Blackberry]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 05:09 PM
I beleive Switzerland is a socialistic like state, not sure.
Yes, Switzerland (http://www.nzz.ch/2003/12/10/english/page-synd4533701.html) sure is socialist.

[Fidelbrand]

i agree with Bradyman.

Can socialism exist and further be as productive as stated by some of its earliest thinkers?

The capitalistic system is first needed to be abolished, the underlying norms of "created greeds" and "alienated and/or endless work" has to removed for the breeding ground for first - Socialism, then full blown communism.

But i think people will stirr up captalist ideas in socialism/communism ..... seems that it is somewhat a cyclical logic , a fact of human beings' desire for change, for a change of life,.... a figuring process of what suits them best, or for somekind of "change for change's" sake.

[ComradeRed]

Nature is the adaptation to an environment. Human nature has adapted to an oppressive capitalism, so it is our nature NOW to be greedy. However, to change nature, humanity must adapt. This is the hardest part of socialism; however, remeber marxism, after the socialist state 'period' the state would be abolished. The need for the socialist state period is to change human nature.

[Mike Fakelastname]

I think I can say something that hasn't been said before in this thread. Greed will never be abolished under socialism in less than 2 or 3 generations. Why? Because no matter how class concious the proletariat is, they will always have the capitalistic insticts if they're raised under capitalism. Socialism requires more than a change in economy and politics, it requires a change in thought. It's more of a revolution than most people realize, it requires a whole renaissance.

[Bradyman]

Yes, perhaps it will take at least 2 or 3 generations. But people do have the tendency to change their minds rather quickly.

Take a look at Germany with the Nazis. Now I am no expert on this German time period, but it appears that it was quite easy to change the minds of the German public to side with Hitler. In effect the people lost their greed for money and instead promoted nationalist goals. All of this occured within the same generation or one extra generation.

Frankly though, I believe that it will take time, because socialist goals can be seen as much more drastic than nationalist goals.

[RevolucioN NoW]

greed is not a capitalist only thing. in capitalism it is encouraged. it may happen in communism, as humans have a natural desire to be competitive.

Greed and competitivness are indeed product of capitalism, it is drummed into you at your class based education institution. People who get A's are treated better than those with B's, and thus you become more comptetive in order to reach the A level.

As another poster mentioned, greed comes down to money and the desire for consumer goods, whcih is drummed into children at a young age.