Is there really an anti-American sentiment in Europe? [Archive]

Ostrinski

18th October 2012, 00:15

You hear this narrative from both conservatives and liberals. With conservatives it's because they're victimizing themselves and the American national identity and with liberals it's (usually) because they're smug Europhiles that wish they weren't American (you know the types).

But when I was in Spain over the summer I didn't see any of that. And I went to many different places and cities. Hell, I was in Paris before that and I didn't see any anti-Americanism there either despite these conservative claims that all French people hate Americans. Is this just a myth? Because everyone I met was really nice. Way nicer than I imagine Americans being to Europeans over here.

Maybe it varies by nation/region?

If European comrades could shed some light on this that'd be cool.

Also if this needs to be moved move it etc etc.

bad ideas actualised by alcohol

18th October 2012, 00:24

No.

Ostrinski

18th October 2012, 00:25

Figured that was the case.

Ostrinski

18th October 2012, 00:29

Also sorry if I said anything dumb.

Os Cangaceiros

18th October 2012, 00:43

In Paris I caught some passive aggressive shit from people, but I think that was more of a language thing (as I didn't know a word of French). Another tourist I met from Australia later on recounted that he had become so enraged at snobby Parisians that he left Paris the same day he arrived there.

Besides that, though, I went to a few countries and didn't really experience any problems because of my nationality.

bad ideas actualised by alcohol

18th October 2012, 00:49

R_P_A_S

18th October 2012, 00:51

Nope! Most Europeans.. unfortunately idolize American consumerism.

Os Cangaceiros

18th October 2012, 00:54

That has nothing to do with Europe.
It's just that everyone in Paris is an arse. It has something to do with the air.

Well, it does have something to do with Europe, in that Paris is located in Europe...

But no, I realize that Paris =/= Europe.

Ostrinski

18th October 2012, 01:02

Ostrinski

18th October 2012, 01:03

That has nothing to do with Europe.
It's just that everyone in Paris is an arse. It has something to do with the air.What about Amsterdam? I wanna go there next. I met some Dutch people while I was in Spain and they were cool as shit.

bad ideas actualised by alcohol

18th October 2012, 01:07

What about Amsterdam? I wanna go there next. I met some Dutch people while I was in Spain and they were cool as shit.

Amsterdam is the most beautiful city in the world, and I don't say that because I lived there when I was a lil' Creep.
Absolutely love Amsterdam.

Os Cangaceiros

18th October 2012, 01:16

So it's like New York?

Also I thought Paris was the coolest place I've ever been.

Call me lame but I'd be eating a croissant outside of a cafe and imagine myself as all the famous people that visited Paris when they were there (Hemingway, Morrison, Lenin, Wilde, etc.)

I lived a good number of years just outside NYC, and yeah, the reputation of people there being assholes didn't materialize out of thin air.

The architecture and shit in Paris is pretty cool. People kinda suck, though. Service in Parisian restaurants is pretty bad. Maybe it was just bad cuz I'm a tourist, but that's just not right, as I'm a polite guest when I'm in other people's countries, I don't slam my fists on the table and scream "WHERE'S MY BEER YOU DIRTY FROGS?!"

Amsterdam is pretty cool, though. It reminded me of some kind of weird harbor town, I guess. The variety of weird museums was interesting.

Ostrinski

18th October 2012, 01:17

One of the guys I met was from there and he said he owned nine bikes. WTF!

bad ideas actualised by alcohol

18th October 2012, 01:21

One of the guys I met was from there and he said he owned nine bikes. WTF!

We do have quite a lot of bikes.

I do wonder how you've managed to find nice Dutch people, I can never find those when I'm in other countries. Only the annoying, loud and obnoxious ones I see.

Ostrinski

18th October 2012, 01:23

The architecture and shit in Paris is pretty cool. People kinda suck, though. Service in Parisian restaurants is pretty bad. Maybe it was just bad cuz I'm a tourist, but that's just not right, as I'm a polite guest when I'm in other people's countries, I don't slam my fists on the table and scream "WHERE'S MY BEER YOU DIRTY FROGS?!"

Amsterdam is pretty cool, though. It reminded me of some kind of weird harbor town, I guess. The variety of weird museums was interesting.Nice. I'm a museum guy. Guess that's kind of why I loved Paris, I saw all of them.

One thing that really disappointed me about the d'Orsay though was that I wanted to see all the art from the French Revolution. Rick Steves made it seem like half the damn museum was dedicated to the realist art of the French Revolution but there was nothing. Fuck you Rick!

Also, I agree with you somewhat about the service in Paris - though I didn't really note it. The food made up for it. Onion soup ftw, can't be beat.

Ostrinski

18th October 2012, 01:25

We do have quite a lot of bikes.

I do wonder how you've managed to find nice Dutch people, I can never find those when I'm in other countries. Only the annoying, loud and obnoxious ones I see.Every Dutch person I met was great. Most nationalities were though.

Only one I had a problem with were the Italians. They were very loud and rude but I imagine that it's not that way for all of them.

PC LOAD LETTER

18th October 2012, 02:06

When I stayed with my uncle in Melbourne a few years back, he warned me about Australian rednecks hating Americans and to tell strangers in rural or semi-rural areas I'm Canadian.

I didn't listen to his advice and everybody was cool. This lady running a gas station in The Middle Of Nowhere, VIC wouldn't hardly let me leave - in the nice way, she wanted to ask me 1000 questions about the US and wondered why I don't sound like the southerners on TV.

Yeah Australia =/= Europe I know, but it's usually included in the "everybody hates us" narrative

Os Cangaceiros

18th October 2012, 02:19

I recently read a book authored by a British journalist who spent some time in Canada, and he was amazed at the amount of casual anti-Americanism he saw while he was there. So I guess the Canadians hate us, too.

The Douche

18th October 2012, 02:26

Everybody I've ever met from outside of the US has always been nice to me, whether I met them here in the states or abroad.

Manic Impressive

18th October 2012, 02:44

we're only nice to your face because we want your fat dollar bills as soon as you walk away we start taking the piss

Ostrinski

18th October 2012, 03:41

Ostrinski

18th October 2012, 03:43

we're only nice to your face because we want your fat dollar bills as soon as you walk away we start taking the pissGod I love this expression. I smile every time someone on revleft uses it.

Devrim

18th October 2012, 09:34

Everybody I've ever met from outside of the US has always been nice to me, whether I met them here in the states or abroad.

I think that there is quite a widespread anti-American feeling in Europe, and a much more widespread feeling in the Middle-East. That doesn't necessarily mean though that people will always take it out by being impolite directly to individuals.

Devrim

Manic Impressive

18th October 2012, 09:40

one tip I could give Americans coming to europe, turn the volume down a notch or two. I mean seriously I've never met a people so eager to shriek whoop at any possibility. Even in normal conversation you're so fucking loud. You're like a nation of Will Ferrells. Tone it down a bit stop being so American and we can start to be friends.

Until then remember every single European hates you and wants your nation to be destroyed

Blake's Baby

18th October 2012, 10:17

Have to agree with Devrim, I think there is a lot of anti-American feeling round Europe. Probably less than there was under the Bush administration, because I think there's still some kind of feeling that Obama is an improvement, but definitely a feeling that Americans as a nation are brash, stupid and unsophisticated. Sort of the feeling that America is like a child making a fool of itself among the adults.

But how much this anti-Americanism translates into actually being rude to individual Americans would I guess vary with context and the individuals concerned. People find it easy to think 'group x are all total shits, except invidual y, he's alright' and I think that it's entirely possible that any Americans coming to Europe might not have experienced anti-Americanism as a personal attack, but that doesn't mean that some of those people who were polite to you didn't think that America is shit. It comes down I think to distinguishing between individuals and a (stereotype of a) cultural group. How much does any individual American 'represent' America? Maybe not so much. I think Europeans tend to give more kudos to Americans who can find their way out, perhaps, than to those who don't, and think that the clever ones are the ones who can get a passport and come to Europe to see some culture. Almost by definition, any American interested enough in the rest of the world that they travel to Europe has to be an improvement on the stay-at-home Americans who stockpile guns and send money to televangelists.

But having said all that I have an American acquaintance who, when travelling around in Europe (including the UK), pretends he's Canadian - 'because it's easier'.

bad ideas actualised by alcohol

18th October 2012, 10:38

Igor

18th October 2012, 15:30

idk i've always found it to be kinda casual. in the sense that there is a general dislike of america in most of europe but it's not really the kind of hostility that would cause you any problems as a tourist. if you're cool american guy, nobody gives a shit, we don't go around beating americans and even if you're all USA USA it will more likely just amuse people instead of pissing them off

Pirate Utopian

18th October 2012, 15:58

Amsterdam is overrated and full of losers.

Igor

18th October 2012, 16:09

Amsterdam is overrated and full of losers.

speaking of amsterdam, due to flights being fucking weird i'm spending like eight hours or so in amsterdam this december, so i'm prolly gonna hang out in the city for a while instead of just staying in schiphol. any amsterdam dwellers have any suggestions for must-see things for such a short visit?

The Douche

18th October 2012, 16:21

I think that there is quite a widespread anti-American feeling in Europe, and a much more widespread feeling in the Middle-East. That doesn't necessarily mean though that people will always take it out by being impolite directly to individuals.

Devrim

I mean, I think it might relate to the way I conduct myself. (or maybe just the people I interacted with)

The only time I've been to the middle-east was obviously under conditions which did not encourage people to be particularly "nice" to me. But I did, nonetheless, make some relationships with people.

The only "war story" I ever care to really tell is about a young man who was a detainee in the facility I worked in, about 17 years old (mind you, I was only 19 or 20), and we were talking one afternoon, and I asked him what he would do when he got released, and he told me he would be "a sniper in baghdad and kill lots of americans", I told him that made sense to me, and he asked if I was ever going to come to Iraq again, and I told him "hopefully not as a soldier", to which he replied "if I see you with my rifle, I won't shoot".

I think a lot of americans can really act like fools, but if you don't carry yourself in such an ignorant manner, you either get comments like "I can't believe you're an american!" or they just think you're from canada.

Ostrinski

18th October 2012, 16:35

Damn, are we really that loud? I guess we are. I'm not though, I'm actually very quiet, don't speak very much. I'd probably do alright living over there, I'd be a good friend to Manic at least ;). I'd like to study over there sometime, probably expensive though.

Igor

18th October 2012, 16:38

I think a lot of americans can really act like fools, but if you don't carry yourself in such an ignorant manner, you either get comments like "I can't believe you're an american!" or they just think you're from canada.

yeah this. being american won't make people dislike you or anything, but if you're annoying somehow, being american can add to that or it all can be explained with your nationality.

Ostrinski

18th October 2012, 16:40

the stay-at-home Americans who stockpile guns and send money to televangelists.If this is the conception that many European folks have of Americans then I guess that kind of attitude is justified.

Luc

18th October 2012, 17:18

WAR OF 1812! CANADA #1!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Canadian_Duality_Flag.svg/800px-Canadian_Duality_Flag.svg.png
Death to America!

Igor

18th October 2012, 17:19

what those blue things are supposed to be idgi

Luc

18th October 2012, 17:20

what those blue things are supposed to be idgi

Quebec, its a national unity flag

speaking of America, me and my mates once tricked an American girl into thinking beaver tails were actually fried beaver tails :lol:

Ostrinski

18th October 2012, 17:27

What's the nature of the Quebec nationalist movement anyway?

Manic Impressive

18th October 2012, 17:35

If this is the conception that many European folks have of Americans then I guess that kind of attitude is justified.

either that or the my sweet 16 type of spoiled rich brat

I think the other thing to consider is the cultural impact especially on work life. A lot of American business culture has been coming over since the 70's. All that corporate speak like team leaders and all that pretentious shit. The Have a nice day culture which just sounds so forced and fake. I think that pisses people off. As well as a more materialistic culture (not the good materialism obv) which to me at least seems to have developed out of 1950's America. I dunno though any of that make sense?

Luc

18th October 2012, 17:37

What's the nature of the Quebec nationalist movement anyway?

i don't know much of it unfortunately, it's not really progressive i guess naturally its reactionary cause of subordination of proletariat to local bourgeois yada yada but i've heard all sorts of things from wanting to join the US to wanting to independant but keep Canadian currency or something. Regarding the conditions of Quebec i think it is worse off than other provinces. Quebcois separatism has had groups from both the right and left for it such as the FLQ (Marxist-Leninist terrorists who caused the October Crisis) and the KKK. Quebecois nationalism is (of course) anti-native american as seen during the Oka crisis where it was emphasised that the Natives spoke english and sided with the English in the War etc. Catholicism is added in aswell to contrast with rest of Protestant Canada. So perhaps the Catholic church has chance for more influence/power?

Igor

18th October 2012, 17:38

also really a big part of disliking usa at least in the uk and probably other english-speaking countries stems from basic, simple "damn they speak differently and do things differently argh"

The Douche

18th October 2012, 17:49

i don't know much of it unfortunately, it's not really progressive i guess naturally its reactionary cause of subordination of proletariat to local bourgeois yada yada but i've heard all sorts of things from wanting to join the US to wanting to independant but keep Canadian currency or something. Regarding the conditions of Quebec i think it is worse off than other provinces. Quebcois separatism has had groups from both the right and left for it such as FLQ (left) and the KKK. Quebecois nationalism is (of course) anti-native american aswell as seen during the Oka crisis where it was emphasised that the Natives spoke english and sided with the English in the War etc. Catholicism is added in aswell to contrast with rest of Protestant Canada. So eprhaps the Catholic church has chance for more influence/power?

The KKK has supported the Quebec speratists? Thats weird, its a protestant organization.

Luc

18th October 2012, 17:55

The KKK has supported the Quebec speratists? Thats weird, its a protestant organization.

ya that does sound odd i guess im making the assumption they do on account of them being nationalists and them being in Quebec (at one time). iirc the KKK who were growing in Quebec around the time and were at the Oka Crisis it was in a book at the school's lbirary called Web of Hate (http://warrenkinsella.com/books/web-of-hate/) my lunch break is almost over and ll be heading there so ill go check it im just getting this from memory.

Perhaps it is some KKK wannabes? as i know the KKK groups in Canada were separate from the Americans which might allow for that change in ideology.. perhaps they were Christian Identity oriented...

Hit The North

18th October 2012, 18:08

Most Americans I've met have been very polite and not nearly as annoying as the ones on Revleft. Ha ha.

Bronco

18th October 2012, 18:27

I think there is a bit in terms of attitudes to gun control and health care and stuff, but I'd say as individuals Americans are considered pretty cool

Luc

18th October 2012, 19:58

ya that does sound odd i guess im making the assumption they do on account of them being nationalists and them being in Quebec (at one time). iirc the KKK who were growing in Quebec around the time and were at the Oka Crisis it was in a book at the school's lbirary called Web of Hate (http://warrenkinsella.com/books/web-of-hate/) my lunch break is almost over and ll be heading there so ill go check it im just getting this from memory.

Perhaps it is some KKK wannabes? as i know the KKK groups in Canada were separate from the Americans which might allow for that change in ideology.. perhaps they were Christian Identity oriented...

alright im back and couldnt get the book it wasnt on the shelves sorry :(

Ostrinski

18th October 2012, 23:57

either that or the my sweet 16 type of spoiled rich bratThese don't exist over there? I'll pack my bags!

I think the other thing to consider is the cultural impact especially on work life. A lot of American business culture has been coming over since the 70's. All that corporate speak like team leaders and all that pretentious shit. The Have a nice day culture which just sounds so forced and fake. I think that pisses people off. As well as a more materialistic culture (not the good materialism obv) which to me at least seems to have developed out of 1950's America. I dunno though any of that make sense?Yeah I definitely feel that. I guess it would be harder to understand for someone who's always grown up around that kind of thing to understand the frustration of it flowing into and polluting other cultures, given its artificiality.

Do you think London is a cool place? I've seen a couple Brits say they hate it. Just trying to figure out where I want to go next in Europe.

Ostrinski

19th October 2012, 00:05

Something I find interesting is that on revleft we all seem pretty similar. Like, our cultural differences really don't show the way they probably would if we all met in real life.

bad ideas actualised by alcohol

19th October 2012, 00:12

Something I find interesting is that on revleft we all seem pretty similar. Like, our cultural differences really don't show the way they probably would if we all met in real life.

If we all met in real life there cold be two outcomes:
1. We get mad at capitalism and overthrow it.
2. We get mad at each other and people will be killed within 5 minutes from the start of the meeting.

I think the second outcome is waaaaaaaaaaay more likely.

Ostrinski

19th October 2012, 00:22

If we all met in real life there cold be two outcomes:
1. We get mad at capitalism and overthrow it.
2. We get mad at each other and people will be killed within 5 minutes from the start of the meeting.

I think the second outcome is waaaaaaaaaaay more likely.I think the left communists and anarchists will just distance themselves from who they see as the "left of capital" and then isolated with each other, the Trotskyists and Marxist-Leninists will just kill each other.

bad ideas actualised by alcohol

19th October 2012, 00:27

I think the left communists and anarchists will just distance themselves from who they see as the "left of capital" and then isolated with each other, the Trotskyists and Marxist-Leninists will just kill each other.

No, anarchist will form a blac bloc. Riley-guy comes in and gets killed by the blac bloc, then some ML starts saying Trotsky is shit, because he is, the Trots will split into little groups all fighting but doing jack shit, the anarchists blac bloc will fight because that's the only thing they can do, but they will lose because they get distracted by non-smashed windows and will move their fight towards that. Left-coms don't exist in the real world.
MLs will be victorious.

The Douche

19th October 2012, 00:37

Most Americans I've met have been very polite and not nearly as annoying as the ones on Revleft. Ha ha.

I'm a lot more light-hearted in real life than I am on here (as long as we're not talking about politics or whatever, then I get pretty fired up and agressive).

I think this is probably the case for many of us.

Manic Impressive

19th October 2012, 00:39

If we all met in real life there cold be two outcomes:
1. We get mad at capitalism and overthrow it.
2. We get mad at each other and people will be killed within 5 minutes from the start of the meeting.

I think the second outcome is waaaaaaaaaaay more likely.
Che Guevara invaded Cuba with 28 men in a leaky boat. We could probably overthrow a tin pot dictatorship and replace it with a state capitalist regime if we all got together.

These don't exist over there? I'll pack my bags!
I'm sure they do but I've never met one.

Do you think London is a cool place? I've seen a couple Brits say they hate it. Just trying to figure out where I want to go next in Europe.
Yeah London is a pretty cool city. There's something for everyone, a 24 hour public transport system which is probably one of the best in the world. And the city really never sleeps, there's always something going on. But South london is far superior. The one's who don't like it probably live north of the river.

bad ideas actualised by alcohol

19th October 2012, 00:47

Che Guevara invaded Cuba with 28 men in a leaky boat. We could probably overthrow a tin pot dictatorship and replace it with a state capitalist regime if we all got together.

Like 3 people on that boat survived.
I think we should come in a party van.
Or like the A-team or something.

PC LOAD LETTER

19th October 2012, 03:18

Something I find interesting is that on revleft we all seem pretty similar. Like, our cultural differences really don't show the way they probably would if we all met in real life.
This reminded me of the Hacker Manifesto

(http://www.phrack.org/issues.html?issue=7&id=3#article)
http://www.phrack.org/issues.html?issue=7&id=3#article

"We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias... and you call us criminals."

LuÃs Henrique

21st October 2012, 14:12

But when I was in Spain over the summer I didn't see any of that. And I went to many different places and cities. Hell, I was in Paris before that and I didn't see any anti-Americanism there either despite these conservative claims that all French people hate Americans. Is this just a myth? Because everyone I met was really nice. Way nicer than I imagine Americans being to Europeans over here.

Maybe it varies by nation/region?

If European comrades could shed some light on this that'd be cool.

Well, I am not European... but I think you are confusing two very different things here. People are polite, at least as long you are polite to them too. It doesn't mean that they aren't anti-American; it just means they don't hold you personally responsible for what they see as faults of your culture or government. In other words, anti-Americanism is not about hating American individuals.

And in that sence, yes, there is an anti-American sentiment in Europe. And in Asia, Africa, Oceania, South and Central America, Mexico, and Canada.

Luís Henrique

Prinskaj

21st October 2012, 17:12

MLs will be victorious.
Correction.
The three MLs, that has not yet been purged, will be victorious.

bad ideas actualised by alcohol

21st October 2012, 17:20

Correction.
The three MLs, that has not yet been purged, will be victorious.

The glorious ML-forum (link in mah sig) will infiltrate the whole thing, and all the 123 members, that includes the 5 accounts or so Caj made that were all banned, will overthrow the thing you have going on.

Prinskaj

21st October 2012, 17:25

The glorious ML-forum (link in mah sig) will infiltrate the whole thing, and all the 123 members, that includes the 5 accounts or so Caj made that were all banned, will overthrow the thing you have going on. You may be victorious at this time, but you will still have problems suppressing the black bloc! (When they run out of smashable windows)

bad ideas actualised by alcohol

21st October 2012, 17:31

You may be victorious at this time, but you will still have problems suppressing the black bloc! (When they run out of smashable windows)

No, because we will have this meeting near a glass-factory and a city, so when they are done with the shops they will have infinite glass from the factory to deal with.
Now the problem will be when the maoists go to the countryside to get around peasants to start a people's war in some mountain region, but the real MLs will be victorious anyways.

Prinskaj

21st October 2012, 17:52

No, because we will have this meeting near a glass-factory and a city, so when they are done with the shops they will have infinite glass from the factory to deal with. That's some good planning right there! The anarchist will properly form a commune and run the factory under workers self-manangement to produce large amounts of windows to smash.

Now the problem will be when the maoists go to the countryside to get around peasants to start a people's war in some mountain region, but the real MLs will be victorious anyways. If we just stay away from the mountains, then they will eventually starve because of inefficient planning.

Ostrinski

22nd October 2012, 04:08

Well, I am not European... but I think you are confusing two very different things here. People are polite, at least as long you are polite to them too. It doesn't mean that they aren't anti-American; it just means they don't hold you personally responsible for what they see as faults of your culture or government. In other words, anti-Americanism is not about hating American individuals.

And in that sence, yes, there is an anti-American sentiment in Europe. And in Asia, Africa, Oceania, South and Central America, Mexico, and Canada.

Luís HenriqueI see and I understand. I shouldn't have conflated politeness with not being anti-American.

Also, what would people from other cultures say is wrong with American culture (not at all trying to defend it, but I'm not even sure I know what American culture is.)

bad ideas actualised by alcohol

22nd October 2012, 07:33

I see and I understand. I shouldn't have conflated politeness with not being anti-American.

Also, what would people from other cultures say is wrong with American culture (not at all trying to defend it, but I'm not even sure I know what American culture is.)

“You guys are loud,fat and invade countries and forces our countries to join to fight for your bloody oil” is what most people I know think of America

Blake's Baby

22nd October 2012, 12:07

And send money to televangelists, and shoot each other. And mostly don't own passports, proving they have no interest in the outside world.

OK, on the last point, many European countries are smaller than US states; you can travel for days in the US and still be in the same country, whereas in Europe, you can do maybe 8 countries in a 12-hour drive. I'm thinking maybe Monaco-France-Italy-Switzerland-Germany-Luxemburg-Belgium-Netherlands or something. Feasable if not particularly interesting because you don't see much or get to interact with people. But it demonstrates the very different scale of things in Europe. So maybe it's easier to travel to another country in Europe, as they're pretty close.

Having typed hat i'm reminded of this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_It%27s_Tuesday,_This_Must_Be_Belgium - a film from 1969 which satirises the holiday tour industry, and I think also demonstrates something of a European attitude to America, that it produces people that Europeans often think lack culture.

We can be very snobbish about that certainly. Eddie Izzard for instance once opened a show in New York with the words 'Hello, I'm from Europe, you know, where the history comes from' which I think is a pretty offensive line in fact (that also ignores the 15,000 years of history before Columbus reached Cuba).

But then, stories circulate about the gaucheness of Americans all the time. In my town there's a story about American tourists who, travelling around the area looking for 'Robin Hood's castle' were pretty disappointed with what was on offer, but spotted a crenelated building with a queue of people outside, thought 'that looks like a proper castle', parked in the car-park and joined the queue, only to find when they reached the front gate that they were trying to get into a (Victorian, neo-gothic) prison.

No reason to believe that there's any truth in that (though, the castle at Nottingham doesn't look very 'medieval' and the prison at Leicester does look a bit more 'Disney'), but it does demonstrate the attitudes that exist - the perception that Americans lack culture, that they have an annoying combination of ignorance and arrogance.